Audience? What audience?
September 29, 2010 5:03 AM   Subscribe

I'm looking for examples of musical artists that became less commercial/mainstream/accessible as their careers went on.

There are plenty of examples of musical artists who started out "underground" or in a very narrow genre and then broadened their sound to become more commercially accessible, perhaps signing to a major label and mellowing out in their old age...I'm looking for the opposite. I'd like to know of bands, composers, and musicians who became weirder, more difficult, more experimental and less conscious of commercial success as their careers went on. It does not matter whether they were critical or commercial successes or failures as a result, and I would like examples across musical genres and eras, as far back as classical composers.
posted by the foreground to Media & Arts (66 answers total) 8 users marked this as a favorite
 
Best answer: Talk Talk.
posted by Acey at 5:07 AM on September 29, 2010 [3 favorites]


Pearl Jam.
posted by felix betachat at 5:09 AM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]


Best answer: Scott Walker
posted by Grangousier at 5:09 AM on September 29, 2010 [3 favorites]


Joni Mitchell.
posted by alms at 5:16 AM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]


John Hartford started out on the bluegrass scene, then made a lot of money thanks to Glen Campbell and others recording his song 'Gentle on My Mind'. After that he pretty much went off and did his own thing. I guess you could call his Aereo-plain album experimental (at least unorthodox, compared to traditional, straight-laced bluegrass) and towards the end of his life he went back to his roots, recording lots of old-time Missouri fiddle tunes.
posted by usonian at 5:18 AM on September 29, 2010


Robert Plant.
posted by COBRA! at 5:20 AM on September 29, 2010


Fiona Apple
posted by telegraph at 5:20 AM on September 29, 2010


Well, from a pop perspective, Mandy Moore is an example.
posted by smoke at 5:22 AM on September 29, 2010


Bjork, Madonna, and Sting.
posted by Grither at 5:24 AM on September 29, 2010


The Beatles.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 5:28 AM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]


Julian Cope, arguably.
posted by misteraitch at 5:29 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: David Was.
posted by headnsouth at 5:30 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Stina Nordenstam. (Exhibit A > Exhibit B)

Joni, Neil Young and Lou Reed are textbook examples of totally contrarian songwriters, although I wouldn't say their resultant output has always been "difficult" so much as difficult to pin down... but Scott Walker really does own this particular topic.
posted by mykescipark at 5:30 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Brian Wilson
posted by dydecker at 5:33 AM on September 29, 2010


Kylie went through a phase. I know we're all glad she grew out of it.
posted by londonmark at 5:34 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Bowie.
although after becoming difficult and weird on Low, Heroes and Lodger, he went back to accessible and then completely off the map.

and Tom Waits.
posted by gijsvs at 5:35 AM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]


Best answer: In hip-hop, how about R. M. Van Winkle. 1991 mass market. 2001 hardcore. 2005 totally indie.

I'm swear to God I had to use Wikipedia to find the last two examples and didn't know them beforehand.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 5:35 AM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]


Radiohead

Jazz:

Charles Mingus

Miles Davis

Esperanza Spalding

Classical composers:

Beethoven

Liszt

Debussy

Stravinsky

Schoenberg

I think this is actually a pretty common progression with classical composers. They start out copying the masters who came before them, then they gradually get confident enough to push music in a new direction. I don't think this is as uncommon as you've suggested. I'm not even convinced that rock/pop acts tend to start out experimental and then become more mainstream.
posted by John Cohen at 5:40 AM on September 29, 2010


The Monkees
posted by dirtdirt at 5:42 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Jane Siberry (she has released all her back catalogue for free, including her hits)
posted by saucysault at 5:50 AM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]


Best answer: Chris Whitley
posted by segatakai at 5:57 AM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]


One could argue this for Bruce Springsteen.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:59 AM on September 29, 2010


Both Trent Reznor and Tori Amos had big splashy debuts, then sort of floated off into relative obscurity. I say "relative" because, while they continued to be successful, they never really matched the success of their earlier albums.
posted by Gilbert at 6:01 AM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]


Best answer: I wouldn't say that Matt Good has gotten inaccessible, but his music definitely went in a more experimental/weird direction after MGB's breakup. He seems to care less about commercial success and making "hits" and more about making the kind of music he wants to make.
posted by litnerd at 6:01 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Tori Amos and Sinead O'Connor. You could argue that neither was ever really mainstream, but they both started out with an album with a number of 'hits' and subsequent albums have become more and more ...shall we say... niche.
posted by widdershins at 6:05 AM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]


Stravinsky

Stravinsky's most "out there" stuff was written pretty early on. The Rite of Spring, for instance, was one of the first successes of his career — he was in his 30s, but for an orchestral composer, that's quite young. Later in life he turned to neoclassicism, writing stuff that was still very good but much less "difficult" or deliberately untraditional than his early ballet scores.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:12 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Dexys Midnight Runners, believe it or not. They peaked commercially with Too Rye Ay (that's the one with "Come On Eileen") and then followed it up with Don't Stand Me Down, one of the strangest records of the new wave era, a paranoid epic of fourth-wall-shattering dialogic songwriting and bizarre song structure.
posted by tealsocks at 6:12 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Ryuichi Sakamoto: started making pretty straightforward electropop with Yellow Magic Orchestra, but try listening to "coro" from Chasm or his work with Alva Noto.
posted by mkb at 6:17 AM on September 29, 2010


Tori Amos is a tough case. From her 1st through her 3rd albums, each one got a little more experimental. But are her albums after that -- like From the Choirgirl Hotel and Scarlet's Walk -- really less mainstream than her first album, Little Earthquakes? You could say From the Choirgirl Hotel was the most commercial of all. She has declined with her recent albums, but the OP said the question is completely independent of commercial/critical success.

One more suggestion, though this is also ambiguous: the Smashing Pumpkins, at least their first 4 albums (or 5 counting Pisces Iscariot). Their 1st (Gish) was pretty straightforward alternative rock; their 2nd (Siamese Dream) was similar but more adventurous; their next proper album (Mellon Collie...) was far more experimental; and their album after that (Adore) radically abandoned the whole alt-rock genre in a way that could have totally alienated their fans. However, after that they got back to their roots.
posted by John Cohen at 6:17 AM on September 29, 2010


Response by poster: I'm not even convinced that rock/pop acts tend to start out experimental and then become more mainstream.

That's not really what I said though. I said there are plenty of bands who start out: in a very narrow genre and then broadened their sound to become more commercially accessible.

Obviously, if you pick a band on the extreme end of the pop spectrum like The Beatles or Madonna they have nowhere to go but either continuing to make pop music or do something different. I was more interested in examples like Radiohead and Talk Talk, who became progressively and willfully more "out there" as their careers have gone on, which does seem to be a rarity at least in the pop/rock world. Most bands tend to find a formula that works for them and stay within that range until it stops selling, or make a short left hand turn and then resume normal service, from my experience. I know classical and jazz less well, but from what I understand it wasn't until the early Romantic period that you started getting composers writing really experimental and difficult pieces in classical music. If there are earlier examples I'd like to learn about them.
posted by the foreground at 6:20 AM on September 29, 2010


Stravinsky's most "out there" stuff was written pretty early on. The Rite of Spring, for instance, was one of the first successes of his career — he was in his 30s, but for an orchestral composer, that's quite young. Later in life he turned to neoclassicism, writing stuff that was still very good but much less "difficult" or deliberately untraditional than his early ballet scores.

I think you're oversimplifying by saying his "most 'out there' stuff was written pretty early on," and by saying his later, neoclassical works were more commercial than "his early ballet scores." His early Firebird and Petrushka are his most accessible works I know of. Rite of Spring came after that and was more radical. Also, how about his serial period, which was after his neo-classical period?
posted by John Cohen at 6:22 AM on September 29, 2010


Robert Zimmerman aka Bob Dylan
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:29 AM on September 29, 2010


I'm not even convinced that rock/pop acts tend to start out experimental and then become more mainstream.

That's not really what I said though.


I'm confused about what you're asking then. You said: "I'd like to know of bands, composers, and musicians who became weirder, more difficult, more experimental..." And that most bands/composers follow the opposite path. I thought I was just quoting back your own word by referring to whether they're more "experimental" earlier or later in their career. I'm saying I question the whole premise: I find it much easier to think of bands/artists who became experimental later than early.

Obviously, if you pick a band on the extreme end of the pop spectrum like The Beatles or Madonna they have nowhere to go but either continuing to make pop music or do something different. I was more interested in examples like Radiohead and Talk Talk, who became progressively and willfully more "out there" as their careers have gone on

If you don't think "the Beatles" is a dead-on answer to your question, then I'm not sure I even understand your question. I recommend giving them a close listen if you haven't already, because I don't know how you could say they didn't get "progressively and willfully more 'out there.'"

I know classical and jazz less well, but from what I understand it wasn't until the early Romantic period that you started getting composers writing really experimental and difficult pieces in classical music. If there are earlier examples I'd like to learn about them.

I would generally agree with that. I could name some composers before the Romantic period who wrote "really experimental and difficult pieces" (Gesualdo!) but I don't know of any with a clear progression. Beethoven is technically before the Romantic period, though many people (imprecisely) consider him Romantic.
posted by John Cohen at 6:30 AM on September 29, 2010


John "Cougar" Mellencamp
Ministry
posted by hydrophonic at 6:42 AM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]


Jovanotti (1988, 2008), although he's had much more commercial success with the more sophisticated music.
posted by hydrophonic at 6:52 AM on September 29, 2010


Bruce Hornsby's (+ the Range) first album was unproblematic adult contemporary that was mainstream-y enough to win a Best New Artist Grammy. After his second album, he sort of made a left turn into jazz/bluegrass (Hot House is pretty outstanding), and even dabbled in electronic/synth on Big Swing Face, which was just plain weird (although I really liked it). He's since gone back to the piano-based jazz pop, but never really got back to mainstream.
posted by timetoevolve at 6:55 AM on September 29, 2010


Natalie Merchant
posted by aabbbiee at 6:57 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Ministry is an interesting example. They started out with a very "mainstream" sound on With Sympathy and Twitch - melodic and danceable electronic/pop music - but never sold particularly well. Then they dropped The Land of Rape and Honey, which was most definitely "out there" for 1987. But that album and the ones that followed were at the forefront of the harder, more industrial electronica (or whatever you want to call it) that exploded in the early 90s, so they sold a ton more albums and even became an MTV staple with a single that featured Gibby Haynes of the Butthole Surfers on vocals. So the more "difficult" and "out there" they got, the more successful they became.
posted by googly at 6:57 AM on September 29, 2010 [2 favorites]


Tool got a lot weirder over time, too. Although they sort of plateaued in lyrical weirdness with Ænima, their music got more complicated.
posted by mkb at 6:57 AM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]


Elvis Costello.

That is all.
posted by three blind mice at 7:00 AM on September 29, 2010 [6 favorites]


but from what I understand it wasn't until the early Romantic period that you started getting composers writing really experimental and difficult pieces in classical music.

Well, that's not strictly true. For the instruments that they had available, earlier composers also wrote experimental music. I remember a guest lecture in my music history class where the speaker was talking about how you can't tell how much Mozart pushed the limits of what was technically possible until you played his music on historical instruments, or modern replicas of them. Mozart is pretty much textbook pre-Romantic, although only just.

I don't know of other, or earlier, specific examples offhand, but would tend to agree with John Cohen that mainstream --> experimental is not an uncommon trajectory for musicians, or indeed, other artists.
posted by bardophile at 7:15 AM on September 29, 2010


MGMT, although they only have 2 albums so far.

Cat Stevens as he became Yusuf Islam

Prince changed his name, changed it back, became very religious, and distributed his latest album, 20Ten, only as a free supplement with newspapers and magazines because he doesn't want it available to download on the internet.
posted by oreofuchi at 7:19 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: There are no small number of performers who are accessible in the mainstream of their chosen genres but are personally fond of obscure or difficult music.

Richard Thompson came to fame as a folkie and folk-rock musician in the late-60s and 70s, but from the 80s onward has had a number of shows and recordings with progressive/underground/avant-garde/what-have-you musicians like Fred Frith, Henry Kaiser, Dave Thomas (of Pere Ubu), and was briefly a member of Golden Palominos.

Paul Westerberg, who started with The Replacements and gained alt-rock fame on his own in the 80s and early 90s with solo albums and movie soundtracks, has his Grandpaboy alter-ego for lo-fi garage rock.

Squarepusher also plays noise and free jazz under his given name, Tom Jenkinson. Pat Metheny released a noise album in the mid-90s.

I suspect there would be even more musicians who would dabble in the underground if they weren't constrained by contracts or overly self-conscious of their public image.

This doesn't directly answer your question, because none of these performers have begun making difficult music to the exclusion of what they're famous for (and/or what pays the rent). But like the musicians you're looking for, it indicates that many artists want to continue growing and diversifying after establishing themselves in a single form.
posted by ardgedee at 7:22 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Scott Walker is probably the daddy of this. You could also say someone like Jaki Leibezeit (Can drummer), but for him the free jazz and improv was more of a return.

But how about Keith Matthew Thornton?
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:22 AM on September 29, 2010


Peter Gabriel. Now don't pish posh that. He left Genesis to go a different, less commercial way, then had some experimental albums with Robert Fripp, ( who is another example) and then had huge commercial success, and now is doing weird covers.
posted by Gungho at 7:30 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: David Byrne.
posted by Gungho at 7:32 AM on September 29, 2010


Björk
Flaming Lips
posted by mkultra at 7:44 AM on September 29, 2010


This is answering your question more exactly: Raymond Scott began as a popular composer and bandleader in the 1930s, and many of his songs from this era have been enshrined in popular culture in Warner Bros' cartoon soundtracks. By the 1960s, he was designing and building some of the earliest synthesizers, including self-sequencing tone generators. He used these to make what might be the earliest ambient electronica ("Soothing Sounds for Baby") and scored soundtracks for experimental films (including some of Jim Henson's earliest work). It's as if after seeing how well he could please the public, he had decided it wasn't providing him challenges he enjoyed, and so he did what he wanted for the rest of his life.
posted by ardgedee at 7:46 AM on September 29, 2010


Robustly seconding Joni Mitchell, as proposed by alms. She started out treading paths well marked out by forerunners (Joan Baez, etc.): melodic, traditional, lots of centuries-old stuff from British and American folk lore. But she soon went off the map and became a speciality product for wierdos. Even Joan Baez herself, up to a certain extent.

Probably all this won't mean much to anyone thirty years younger than me...
posted by aqsakal at 7:52 AM on September 29, 2010


Came in here to recommend Jane Siberry, but saucysault beat me to it.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 7:55 AM on September 29, 2010


I would disagree with many of these suggestions in that the artists in question have never really diverged that much from the pop beginings. Kylie, Madonna, etc. - they haven't ever released ANYTHING that could be term difficult listening.


but then The Beatles and Radiohead are really the only artists I can think of that have gone significantly esoteric.
posted by mary8nne at 8:01 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Seconding David Byrne.

Ian Moore.

Lindsey Buckingham (of Fleetwood Mac)
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:03 AM on September 29, 2010


Seconding Scott Walker. Also Mike Patton - although Mr Bungle was happening before and parallel to Faith No More things got hairier with Fantômas etc.
posted by freya_lamb at 8:11 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Blur's albums after The Great Escape (Blur, 13, Think Tank) were progressively more experimental and esoteric.
posted by roomaroo at 8:12 AM on September 29, 2010


Tori Amos is an even better example than the answers here suggest. Little Earthquakes wasn't actually her first album; she was in a band called Y Kant Tori Read that released a self-titled album in the '80s, which is much more predictable pop than her later work. It wasn't more successful, but it was more mainstream. Here's a sample.
posted by dizziest at 8:15 AM on September 29, 2010


I think you're oversimplifying by saying his "most 'out there' stuff was written pretty early on," and by saying his later, neoclassical works were more commercial than "his early ballet scores." His early Firebird and Petrushka are his most accessible works I know of. Rite of Spring came after that and was more radical. Also, how about his serial period, which was after his neo-classical period?

All true, though I think most people who think of Stravinsky as a rebellious/experimental composer do have Rite of Spring in mind rather than, say, Agon. I'm just saying, his career wasn't a straight line from "young and square" to "old and weird."

posted by nebulawindphone at 8:31 AM on September 29, 2010


Kate Bush hasn't toured since 1979 and rarely does publicity for her infrequent releases; I get the impression she is always creating music despite not caring about commercial success.
posted by saucysault at 8:39 AM on September 29, 2010


Robyn. First came to prominence in the US in 1997 with the huge hit "Show Me Love", now makes equally fun, but infinitely more artistic stuff like "The Girl and the Robot". Her fans now are probably more gung-ho than her early fans-- she's undergone an indie/electro-pop reinvention.
posted by acidic at 8:46 AM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]


Erykah Badu seems to be getting weirder.
posted by umbú at 9:05 AM on September 29, 2010 [1 favorite]


Best answer: The Mars Volta. Their first album was very listenable to mainstream audiences, albeit somewhat edgy. From there, their albums got exponentially more experimental, along with their live show.

Of Montreal. Started out weird; became their most "mainstream" around Satanic Panic in the Attic, Sunlandic Twins, and Kissing Fauna, and then plunged back into weirdness.

Sufjan Stevens' new album has heavy electronica influences, he says 'fuck' a lot, and autotunes himself to sound like T-Pain on the last track. I'm not sure where this registers on the "mainstream" scale compared to his previous works, although it's markedly different.
posted by schmod at 10:27 AM on September 29, 2010


Lauryn Hill is certainly less accessible now than she was in 1998.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 10:49 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Hmm. I think I would propose Debora Iyall.

I think I would also propose, more likely, Lawrence Hayward.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 10:52 AM on September 29, 2010


I think this is actually a pretty common progression with classical composers.

I can actually only think of two examples to the contrary, in fact: Copland and George Rochberg.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Robert Hampson, ex of Loop and then Main and now recording under his own name.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:43 AM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: I'd have to say Mike Patton, since FNM was pretty mainstream, but everything since has gotten much less accessable. All that aside, I think he's one of the most creative, interesting, and talented hard rockin guy out there
posted by Redhush at 2:10 PM on September 29, 2010


Best answer: Neutral Milk Hotel.
posted by andoatnp at 2:30 PM on September 29, 2010


« Older I'm a Whale of a Fail.   |   Rotary Cutter Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.