speedless in seattle

September 27, 2010 3:03 AM

Need some info to avoid driving faux pas in Seattle, Washington

So I just moved from the Bay Area and I need a couple driving questions cleared up:

1) people turn right on red right arrow lights. is this legal? in california a red arrow specifically means no turn on red. if not, whats the point of having a red arrow in the first place instead of a regular red light? i've been honked at so many times already for this.

2) One thing I noticed from Portland on north is that people do not like to drive faster than the speed limit on freeways. And that limit is usually 60 which literally drives me crazy coming from a place where generally everyone is okay doing 70. Is it because the enforcement is stricter or do people just take it slower here?

Since I'm at it let me take this opportunity to rant about how fucked up Seattle roads are planned out. Highway off ramps which only exist on one side (99 but particularly w. seattle br), streets and avenues with the same names that are miles apart, multiple broken segments of the same streets, weird curves and diagonals, and there are no arteries that go straight through town. It's pretty much like driving in Grand Theft Auto.

posted by sammich to travel & transportation around Seattle, WA (33 answers total)

I don't know about Seattle at all, but I've only ever seen highway off ramps that exist on one side of the road. Unless you want to count the old ones that were on the other side and aren't used anymore.
posted by theichibun at 3:23 AM on September 27, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'm particularly fond of the corner of N.E. 45th and 45th N.E. The roads are deliberate, of course. Developed and paid for by Lesser Seattle, a civic organization that wishes you would all go back to where you came from and let us enjoy our little pleasures -- like merging from I-5 to the West Seattle Bridge. (If you don't believe me, check out Lesser Seattle on Wiki.)

If you really feel the Need for Speed, simply get on the freeway and drive north. Just beyond Everett you will meet the hordes of Canadians, whose loony is pretty much on a par with the dollar these days, headed for the outlet malls for our third world bargains. 80 is pretty much their cruising speed.

As for your questions: unless there is a sign that says "No Turn on Red" -- turn already! And yeah, most of us tend to follow the posted speed limits on the freeway, maybe 5 miles over. If you have a problem with that you are welcome to go somewhere else. Please. Especially if you're one of those drivers who thinks if you get very very close to my rear bumper I'll drive faster.

And as for the lack of straight lines through town, there are indeed a lot of curves and diagonals. Perhaps you've noticed the number of hills and lakes scattered around town? The roads are going around them. And I think I speak for most of us when we say we'd rather have an interesting drive than a flat out straight shot.

Seriously, not everyone is suited to live in the Pacific Northwest, particularly as the Gray Season sets in. I hope you can relax and enjoy the good parts.
posted by kestralwing at 3:35 AM on September 27, 2010 [5 favorites]

With regards to your first question, the Washington Department of Licensing Driver Guide says:

A red arrow means you must stop and you cannot go in
the direction of the arrow. You may proceed when the red
arrow goes out and a green arrow or light goes on. If you
are turning right, you may turn after coming to a full stop
if it is safe and if there is no sign prohibiting the turn on
a red arrow. You may also turn left onto a one-way street
with traffic moving left after coming to a full stop if there
is no sign prohibiting turns on a red arrow when it is safe
to do so.

So, yes, you can turn right on a red arrow light — but only if you come to a full stop and there is no sign that prohibits right turns on a red arrow.
posted by RichardP at 3:40 AM on September 27, 2010 [2 favorites]

I've never driven in Seattle, but I have driven in the Bay Area and San Diego, Los Angeles and countless other cities in the US and I can't think of anywhere that highway exits are on both sides of the highway for a given exit. I'm sure it may exist, but I hardly imagine it to be common place. What am I missing?
posted by FlamingBore at 4:16 AM on September 27, 2010

I promise I'm not trying to be a jerk, but speed limits aren't a suggestion.
posted by AlisonM at 4:19 AM on September 27, 2010 [15 favorites]

I've only driven in Seattle a very limited amount, but I'm guessing the "no exits on both sides of the highway" the Asker refers to means that you can only exit onto a given road if you are traveling in a specific direction. For instance, you could only exit Highway A onto Roadway B if you are headed North on Highway A, but not if you are headed South. In this scenario, presumably you would have to go to the next exit, turn around and come back, thus changing your direction on the highway, to make the original exit you intended to make. I've seen that in some cities, but I don't remember if that is the case in Seattle.

And yes, red arrow, without a "no turn on red," is the same as a red light and thus you have to stop before proceeding.
posted by Slothrop at 4:29 AM on September 27, 2010

Sorry, I said that totally wrong.

I meant that there is only one particular exit/entrance for only one side of the highway. For example, on WA-99 southbound there's no way to use the West Seattle Bridge to go east to I-5. There's only a Westbound exit. If I wanted to use it to go to I-5, I would have to take the westbound exit and U-Turn at the next light. I assume they designed this is to keep the north/south traffic of 99 and 5 separate.

I understand that roads curve around hills but I don't buy the excuse that that's the only reason. SF is much hillier than Seattle but the percentage of wacky streets isn't as high.
posted by sammich at 4:46 AM on September 27, 2010

and they are more car hating as lesser seattle suggests.
posted by sammich at 4:53 AM on September 27, 2010

Here's a handy mnemonic for you. Jesus Christ Made Seattle Under Protest. This will help you remember the order of the streets downtown. Jefferson, James. Cherry, Columbia, Marion, Madison,
Spring, Seneca, University, Union, Pike.

I think they may drive slow habitually because of the wet season and the experience of hydroplaning. That said, I have never seen so many people drive under the speed limit.
posted by mearls at 5:14 AM on September 27, 2010 [1 favorite]

There are only two spots along Highway 24 in Oakland where an offramp has a counterpart for the opposite direction. And there's no dedicated ramp from 24-E to 13-N or from 13-N to 24-W, even though the other six changes have ramps. I'm sure there are many more examples of this throughout the Bay Area, but I'm most familiar with this one.

Eastbound exits (from memory): 54th, Claremont, Broadway, SR13-S, Caldecott
Westbound exits (from memory): Caldecott, SR13-N (Tunnel Road), SR13-S, College, Telegraph
posted by clorox at 5:21 AM on September 27, 2010

My mechanical help for achieving a certain degree of speed limit compliance is the cruise control. Seriously. If you know your car is right, there's so much less to get upset about, even if it seems slow. It's much more upsetting to have to ponder whether the car in front may be juust a little slow.
[Unless a city has at some point been bulldozered over by a major re-shaping effort, catastrophe, or war, road planning is pretty much a function of the original land distribution from days long gone. This seems to vary a lot depending on the involved tradition. It is, for instance, interesting how Gothenburg, a hilly, rocky city with pretty ancient roots, is planned as a - for the car driver - completely confusing bundle of circular roads and dead ends, while Borås, a smaller industrial-revolution town only 50km east, has an American-style gritwork centre in spite of its curvy river going right through. This may be a great topic for a PhD; complaining helps little, though]
posted by Namlit at 5:22 AM on September 27, 2010

or from 13-S to 24-W
posted by clorox at 5:23 AM on September 27, 2010

Check out this, and the linked wiki article.

The naming conventions convey a lot of information, but you have to know how to decode it.

For example:

N.E. 45th and 45th N.E. - The compass designation in front of the name means that NE 45th is NE 45th Street, and runs East-West. The compass designation after the name means that 45th NE is 45th Avenue NE, and runs North-South.

In each case, the NE means (roughly) that the address is located in the area of town between I-5 (on the West) and Lake Washington (on the East), and 145th Street on the North, and Portage/Union bays on the South.

Likewise, NW, N, W, E, S and (blank) all refer to different parts of town.
posted by Gorgik at 6:19 AM on September 27, 2010 [2 favorites]

I lived in Seattle for several years, drove a lot. I've lived in several other large cities, and as a former road musician driven in dozens more. I'm actually just back from a driving trip in the NW, including my old town.

I don't seriously think Seattle-area traffic is any more prone to follow the speed limit than Bay Area traffic (which I've driven in scores of times). The going speed on I5 when it's clear seems to me to be 70+, just like in New York or Austin or LA. But in both cities, traffic is the real limitation. I've crawled along in SF traffic many times too. Relative to density, highway speeds are pretty much the same anywhere in the US.

Ah, but Montana and West Texas, where you can make 90+ and see to the next county, that's the (not going to get a) ticket for real speed.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:34 AM on September 27, 2010

Are left-side offramps actually common anywhere outside of the Bay Area? Here on the East Coast, they're usually only used in congested areas where there's not enough room to place a right-side exit. Even then, they're generally avoided because they tend to be somewhat dangerous.
posted by schmod at 6:36 AM on September 27, 2010

That said, what I despise are those left-merging onramps to I5. Death traps for an anxious driver who hesitates even a little too long.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:37 AM on September 27, 2010

Or what schmod said...
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:38 AM on September 27, 2010

I grew up and learned to drive in Seattle, and now live on the east coast. In my experience, Seattle drivers were much more speed-limit abiding.
posted by heyforfour at 6:42 AM on September 27, 2010

Heyforfour, I agree with you about in-town surface street driving (although midwesterners are similar, and of course there's a cultural connection back to law-abiding Scandinavian cultures). Seattle also has pretty rigorous law enforcement in general (only place I know you can actually get a ticket for jaywalking). And maybe highway driving was different in your youth; Seattle has grown a lot in the last couple of decades. At any given time, I'd be willing to bet 30 percent or more of the highway traffic doesn't consist of local drivers in any case.

As someone who has lived there (for 3 years in the mid 90s), and been back regularly enough since, and having just come back from a driving (mountain) vacation that ended with me making it from the Edmonds ferry terminal to the rental car turn in at Sea-Tac in about 35 minutes at 7pm on a weeknight (about 30 miles, the first 10 mins on the surface road from Edmonds to I5, you do the math), I found I had to do very little tuning of my speed/aggression instincts, which are now primarily adapted to New York conditions. In fact, I remember thinking to myself that this was the fastest average speed I'd ever seen on I5 through Seattle. It was a nice clear evening, summer, so still light.

I think politeness and speed are not necessarily the same thing. While I heartily approve of the argument that speed kills, there is such a thing as driving dangerously slowly (or timidly) on interstate-grade highways. The going speed on highways through dense urban areas in the US is about 5-7 miles over the speed limit, conditions permitting (and they rarely do).

There are other factors, weather being a big one, that create local driving cultures. Where it rains a lot and gets dark early, a more cautious driving style is certainly adaptive. And where there are a lot of trucks on the road, as there are in that stretch of I5 due to the port, the border, the logging industry, and the rail terminus, things slow down more too. But I really think traffic density is far more important than culture.

I think America drives faster than it did 10 years ago overall. Better, safer cars and roads, and everyone ever more stressed out and distracted.

Someone must have studied these issues statistically by city or state.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:10 AM on September 27, 2010 [1 favorite]

The rules for driving in Seattle, according to me, are as follows:

1. Merge with confidence.
2. Take your right-of-way.
3. Use good lane discipline, even when turning right on red.
4. If everyone around you is driving slower than you want them to, there's probably a good reason.
5. Leave a safe following distance, for God's sake. The particular kind of rain we have around here can cause mercilessly slick conditions, and spinning out on a crowded offramp can ruin a lot of people's day.
posted by KathrynT at 7:36 AM on September 27, 2010 [3 favorites]

streets and avenues with the same names that are miles apart

It's far worse is when they are close to each other. 1st Ave N is two blocks away from 1st Ave W. Don't confuse either of them with 1st Ave.

I understand that roads curve around hills but I don't buy the excuse that that's the only reason. SF is much hillier than Seattle but the percentage of wacky streets isn't as high.

The other reason is all the water everywhere. Seriously, look at a topographical map of Seattle sometime.

there's no way to use the West Seattle Bridge to go east to I-5

The West Seattle Bridge does not go east to I-5. It is the bridge to the west. I know Google Maps says otherwise, but it is wrong. The viaduct to the east is called the Spokane Street Viaduct.

WA-99 is really old and doesn't meet current engineering standards. Consistency is not something you should expect out of it, especially things that were added later like the bridge connection.
posted by grouse at 7:51 AM on September 27, 2010 [2 favorites]

Regarding driving speed, this WSJ article cites data from TomTom that indicates that it's not your imagination -- Oregon and Washington drivers are (relative) slowpokes.
posted by mhum at 10:20 AM on September 27, 2010

Some of the left-side on/offramps are, I gather, simply left over from early days of the freeway system before they stopped doing that. I don't generally find them a problem, though it can be exciting to try to get from 520 to the Mercer street exit, for example.

There's a joke(?) about the perception of aggressive drivers in Seattle: that if you're trying to go fast, it's obviously because you screwed up and didn't leave enough time to get where you're going, and it's not other drivers' problem to accommodate your moral failing. (Hamburger or none, as you prefer.)

My experience is that traffic on I-5 usually goes 5-10 miles faster than the posted limit, but poor weather or congestion will slow that down pretty fast. On surface streets, people typically stick to the posted limit.
posted by hattifattener at 10:50 AM on September 27, 2010 [1 favorite]

The ability to turn left on red, so long as you are turning onto a one-way street, was the hardest for me to get used to in downtown Seattle, especially when turning off a 2-way street.

whats the point of having a red arrow in the first place instead of a regular red light?

It's to indicate what directions are allowed once you start going. It's most necessary for intersections where there is confusion about if you can go straight or not. We have several places in Seattle where 1 lane has to turn right, the middle lane gets to go straight ahead into two lanes (one of which is directly in front of the right-turn-only lane), and a third lane has to go straight, but only gets one lane to choose from.
posted by nomisxid at 10:59 AM on September 27, 2010

Here's a tip for a situation you haven't mentioned yet: the all-way stop. You find these in a lot of busy neighborhoods like Queen Anne and Capitol Hill. (I would call it a four-way stop, but I can think of several five-way stops off the top of my head.)

According to the rule books, everyone yields clockwise. (Left yields to right.) But that's not what we do. Here's the rule:

1. Whoever's first to the stop gets to go first.

2. When multiple cars arrive at the same time, or there's a line of several cars waiting to get through the intersection: pretend like there is a set of traffic lights that's only letting one car through per cycle.

This means that you'll have two facing turning cars go, then two facing "driving straight," then the opposite two facing turning cars, and the opposite two facing "driving straight."

That person on the fifth/odd angle road is going to have to nudge their way in. It sucks to be that person, but usually if you start kind of crawling your way through the intersection, other people will let you through.

It makes more sense once you see it in action.

After fifteen years living in neighborhoods dotted with these intersections, I have learned to short-circuit the "no, after you" dance that you can get into. If the other car is all "oh please, be my guest," then I just GO. I think it annoys them, because you're supposed to be reciprocally polite, but frankly I have better things to do.
posted by ErikaB at 11:17 AM on September 27, 2010 [3 favorites]

mearls: "Here's a handy mnemonic for you. Jesus Christ Made Seattle Under Protest. This will help you remember the order of the streets downtown. Jefferson, James. Cherry, Columbia, Marion, Madison, Spring, Seneca, University, Union, Pike."

…and Pine.
posted by Cogito at 12:02 PM on September 27, 2010 [1 favorite]

It isn't hard, if you're paying attention. Get a map. And a compass - seriously, I've lived here for 15 years and I swear by my built-in compass even now.

Study the link Gorgik provided.

And then read and re-read kestralwing's answer. Over and over and over. If I could favorite that answer a thousand times, I would.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 1:00 PM on September 27, 2010

sammich writes "I understand that roads curve around hills but I don't buy the excuse that that's the only reason. SF is much hillier than Seattle but the percentage of wacky streets isn't as high."

Downtown, at least, the funny angled street grids are a result of disagreement among town founders as to how streets should be laid out. Doc Maynard thought the grid should be oriented to the cardinal points of the compass, and Denny and Boren thought the grid should follow the shore of Elliot Bay. (source)
posted by samw at 1:21 PM on September 27, 2010 [2 favorites]

I'll agree with you about how the freeway system here is wonky. Ever notice all the places on the viaduct that were reserved for future ramps that were never built? And now they're going to be tearing the whole thing down. Had they built those ramps it would have been devastating to the flow of traffic on the viaduct, so I'm glad they didn't build them. They did plan for expansion, but not in a way that became feasible as the city grew. Then there are the exit ramps and entrance ramps on both sides of I-5 in both directions approaching the ship canal bridge, which pretty much guarantee that traffic will slow to a crawl in even moderate traffic, as cars enter the freeway on one side and have to merge all the way across to get to their exits. Mix a few trucks in there that can't get back up to speed ascending the bridge and you have a perpetual traffic jam.

I'm guessing you're in the Queen Anne area, which would explain why you'd be on Hwy 99 southbound, wanting to get over to I-5. It would also explain your complaint about broken segments of the same streets. In my opinion the broken segments of street are part of the charm of that very hilly area, but long ago when I was a delivery driver they drove me crazy too. I'd advise getting one of those little, laminated city maps to carry in your car until you get a feel for where the arterials are that will get you where you want to go.

To get over to I-5 from the viaduct, you could take the 1st Avenue exit (on the left), by the stadiums, and turn left on Edgar Martinez Dr. S., just south of Safeco Field. I can't imagine how a ramp from Hwy 99 southbound to eastbound on the Spokane Street viaduct would screw up traffic in all directions, and I'm glad there isn't one.

I avoid I-5 whenever possible because it seems like it's always moving slowly through town, but the rule of thumb is pretty much that if you need to be on I-5 then you can either take the surface streets to get there or get on Hwy 99 and then take the surface streets in a different part of town to get there.

You'll get used to it, and you'll figure out the best routes to take to where you need to go. Hang in there.
posted by Balonious Assault at 2:24 PM on September 27, 2010

This is why people from Seattle aren't from Seattle, they're from a particular neighborhood in Seattle, because it's so much of a pain in the ass to get to other neighborhoods that they might as well be separate cities.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:39 PM on September 27, 2010 [1 favorite]

SO TRUE.

Everyone drives the speed limit, and they drive the speed limit in all lanes so no faster traffic can get through.

You will eventually figure out the street naming system. The suffixes are handy, and after you get familiar with the geography of the area, you can use the street names to gauge your north/south position, as all the 'Spokane' streets are at roughly the same latitude, etc.

Another horrible regionalism is the way they drive around the little traffic circles - i.e., totally wrong. Be careful or you will get t-boned by someone going the wrong way around the circle.

On the plus side, people will always let you merge in and out of traffic with a friendly wave.
posted by bq at 3:43 PM on September 27, 2010 [1 favorite]

yes i forgot about the roundabouts! i've seen people go clockwise. i've even seen one with a 45° street that just begs you to go the wrong way since the street is so big and the center is so small.

i've also already experienced the occasion at the four way stop where the person on the left is waiting for me to go and vice versa.

thanks for the mnemonic. that helps a bunch. and the links from the wikis. super interesting.
posted by sammich at 3:58 PM on September 27, 2010

One more trick. PiNe is North of Pike.
posted by Gorgik at 5:15 PM on September 27, 2010 [1 favorite]