Singing the crybaby blues
September 23, 2010 1:05 PM Subscribe
How much crying is too much? (aka Help me speak to my boyfriend, please?)
Not too long ago, I came home in a rotten mood due to work and felt like having a good cry on the phone to my boyfriend. So I did, but not long after I started venting, he started giving me advice on how to deal with the work-stressors. I asked him to please let me vent and just get stuff out before he started offering suggestions, he got upset because I didn't want to listen to his advice, and we've been fighting for two days now.
Here's some more data:
1. Whenever I'm stressed out, overwhelmed, angry, etc., my very first reaction is to want to cry.
2. In the past, whenever I've felt overwhelmed/angry/stressed and I cried, people were around to comfort me and make soothing noises until I calmed down enough to deal with the source of the anger, etc.
3. I'm already in therapy and have been for about three years. In fact, the reason why I'm in therapy is that my most recent ex said I should go because he found my reaction to stress to be pretty weird and he felt uncomfortable around me whenever I cried. (Actually, his real words were that he thought I was manipulating him with my tears, and that's a tangent for a different post.)
4. My therapist is not a cognitive behavioral therapist. He's more of the "Let's explore those feelings and relate them to your past and make those unconscious actions more conscious so that we effect lasting change" kind of therapists.
4. My current boyfriend has said to me several times that he feels as if he can really help me with my problems because he has a unique perspective and that he thinks our emotional issues are very similar.
5. He really wants to help me with my problems and thinks we can work on our problems together.
6. Near the beginning of our relationship, I explained to my boyfriend what I've been seeing a therapist about and why as well as why my last relationship disintegrated.
7. Every time we fight (and it's not infrequent), I am always very conscious of what I say and how I say it so that I don't veer off into territory that's not pertinent to the argument. It doesn't always work, but I'm trying.
8. I'm also trying to find more ways of expressing myself when I'm angry so that I make my feelings known and I don't keep things bottled inside so that they influence unconscious actions.
9. My boyfriend has said that he doesn't think it's fair that I'm dictating the rules on how we interact, that I'm allowed to regulate his behavior when I'm upset.
10. He has said that I'm the only person he knows who reacts this way while upset and that other women he's known and have helped through their issues think his advice and consolation is awesome.
11. He said that to ask him to withhold advice when he thinks he can help is unfair to him and goes against his nature.
12. I already checked; it won't be that time of the month for about another week or so.
Because he lives a fair distance away and has other obligations, he can't come over to hash things out in person till Saturday and I don't want to talk about this over the phone, by text, or by email.
Right now, I am so pissed off that I think I am the only one who is right and he is totally wrong not to compromise just a little on this one tiny thing, but I want to be able to see his perspective. Can you think of any ways in which I might be the person in the wrong here and how?
Not too long ago, I came home in a rotten mood due to work and felt like having a good cry on the phone to my boyfriend. So I did, but not long after I started venting, he started giving me advice on how to deal with the work-stressors. I asked him to please let me vent and just get stuff out before he started offering suggestions, he got upset because I didn't want to listen to his advice, and we've been fighting for two days now.
Here's some more data:
1. Whenever I'm stressed out, overwhelmed, angry, etc., my very first reaction is to want to cry.
2. In the past, whenever I've felt overwhelmed/angry/stressed and I cried, people were around to comfort me and make soothing noises until I calmed down enough to deal with the source of the anger, etc.
3. I'm already in therapy and have been for about three years. In fact, the reason why I'm in therapy is that my most recent ex said I should go because he found my reaction to stress to be pretty weird and he felt uncomfortable around me whenever I cried. (Actually, his real words were that he thought I was manipulating him with my tears, and that's a tangent for a different post.)
4. My therapist is not a cognitive behavioral therapist. He's more of the "Let's explore those feelings and relate them to your past and make those unconscious actions more conscious so that we effect lasting change" kind of therapists.
4. My current boyfriend has said to me several times that he feels as if he can really help me with my problems because he has a unique perspective and that he thinks our emotional issues are very similar.
5. He really wants to help me with my problems and thinks we can work on our problems together.
6. Near the beginning of our relationship, I explained to my boyfriend what I've been seeing a therapist about and why as well as why my last relationship disintegrated.
7. Every time we fight (and it's not infrequent), I am always very conscious of what I say and how I say it so that I don't veer off into territory that's not pertinent to the argument. It doesn't always work, but I'm trying.
8. I'm also trying to find more ways of expressing myself when I'm angry so that I make my feelings known and I don't keep things bottled inside so that they influence unconscious actions.
9. My boyfriend has said that he doesn't think it's fair that I'm dictating the rules on how we interact, that I'm allowed to regulate his behavior when I'm upset.
10. He has said that I'm the only person he knows who reacts this way while upset and that other women he's known and have helped through their issues think his advice and consolation is awesome.
11. He said that to ask him to withhold advice when he thinks he can help is unfair to him and goes against his nature.
12. I already checked; it won't be that time of the month for about another week or so.
Because he lives a fair distance away and has other obligations, he can't come over to hash things out in person till Saturday and I don't want to talk about this over the phone, by text, or by email.
Right now, I am so pissed off that I think I am the only one who is right and he is totally wrong not to compromise just a little on this one tiny thing, but I want to be able to see his perspective. Can you think of any ways in which I might be the person in the wrong here and how?
Are you crying, or are you crying/venting/complaining/talking it out? If it's just about crying, then you can do it without him (or anyone), but if it's about venting/complaining/talking then you have a communication problem which your counselor may be able to help you with. Perhaps your boyfriend could come along too, for a session or two.
Have you considered CBT? Three years of "exploring those feelings" seems like a long time to me.
posted by headnsouth at 1:12 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Have you considered CBT? Three years of "exploring those feelings" seems like a long time to me.
posted by headnsouth at 1:12 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Can you think of any ways in which I might be the person in the wrong here and how?
There is no right and there is no wrong.
I wrote some other stuff here but Ironmouth beat me to it. His desire to help you is a valid one, but he can do that after you've calmed down. He can validate your need for sympathy and love, and then you can validate his need to be vocally helpful and supportive.
posted by muddgirl at 1:14 PM on September 23, 2010 [6 favorites]
There is no right and there is no wrong.
I wrote some other stuff here but Ironmouth beat me to it. His desire to help you is a valid one, but he can do that after you've calmed down. He can validate your need for sympathy and love, and then you can validate his need to be vocally helpful and supportive.
posted by muddgirl at 1:14 PM on September 23, 2010 [6 favorites]
Can you think of any ways in which I might be the person in the wrong here and how?
Thinking right/wrong isn't really that helpful from my perspective. When my boyfriend and I have disagreements, the biggest thing is to try to figure them out and how to manage them together so that no one has to just "do what i say" and everyone is allowed to say "I can't/won't do that" and the other person can decide if that's a real dealbreaker to them. I mean, really, we aim for not saying "I won't do that" to each other but occasionally something comes up where there really is a tough issue and we have to figure out personally what does and does not work for us and then move towards what works for the relationship.
So, for example, I pretty much will not listen to someone crying on the phone. This does not come up with my boyfriend but it's come up with other people in the past. I also have a limited tolerance for "I just need to vent" if it's about a situation that frequently comes up and frequently requires the venting/support dynamic. My feeling is that if you're in an unsatisfactory position in your life such that you cry about it a lot, you need to change it, or fund a way to change it, or have a timeline for changing it. I am aware that for some people this is not true and I do not date them.
I am aware that for some people, crying over something isn't abnormal and it's not disturbing to them. It's disturbing to me. If I'm crying about something, there is something very very wrong and I am feeling very very bad. It's hard for me to not see this in other people, though I work on it. So, that could be your boyfriend's perspective, possibly.
So, in your case with your boyfriend, it's not really okay for you to say "when I am upset, you need to be this way" without there not being some other "I know it is hard for you to deal with me crying so this is what I will do to try to work on that" part of the puzzle. Both of you compromise. Neither of you is right and the other is a bad version of them.
So, it doesn't matter if your boyfriend thinks his advice is awesome, you can say "now is not advice time." That said, it may be possible that if your crying makes him feel weird, bad and manipulated, that you and he work out another way together to deal with it. And you may need to find other people for venting on if he's not a good venting person. Or the two of you may be poorly matched. You don't talk much about the rest of your relationship so it's tough to tell what might be happening there.
Again, there is no right answer and I think your insistence on framing this in a "how can I be wrong?" way is in and of itself problematic. This is not a tiny thing. I'm aware that you are frustrated and pissed off, but you are seeing this through a lens in which he somehow needs to prove to you that it is okay for him to give you advice when you are crying and really what you have is a bad dynamic where you don't seem to be abl to find a common ground. That is your problem.
posted by jessamyn at 1:16 PM on September 23, 2010 [32 favorites]
Thinking right/wrong isn't really that helpful from my perspective. When my boyfriend and I have disagreements, the biggest thing is to try to figure them out and how to manage them together so that no one has to just "do what i say" and everyone is allowed to say "I can't/won't do that" and the other person can decide if that's a real dealbreaker to them. I mean, really, we aim for not saying "I won't do that" to each other but occasionally something comes up where there really is a tough issue and we have to figure out personally what does and does not work for us and then move towards what works for the relationship.
So, for example, I pretty much will not listen to someone crying on the phone. This does not come up with my boyfriend but it's come up with other people in the past. I also have a limited tolerance for "I just need to vent" if it's about a situation that frequently comes up and frequently requires the venting/support dynamic. My feeling is that if you're in an unsatisfactory position in your life such that you cry about it a lot, you need to change it, or fund a way to change it, or have a timeline for changing it. I am aware that for some people this is not true and I do not date them.
I am aware that for some people, crying over something isn't abnormal and it's not disturbing to them. It's disturbing to me. If I'm crying about something, there is something very very wrong and I am feeling very very bad. It's hard for me to not see this in other people, though I work on it. So, that could be your boyfriend's perspective, possibly.
So, in your case with your boyfriend, it's not really okay for you to say "when I am upset, you need to be this way" without there not being some other "I know it is hard for you to deal with me crying so this is what I will do to try to work on that" part of the puzzle. Both of you compromise. Neither of you is right and the other is a bad version of them.
So, it doesn't matter if your boyfriend thinks his advice is awesome, you can say "now is not advice time." That said, it may be possible that if your crying makes him feel weird, bad and manipulated, that you and he work out another way together to deal with it. And you may need to find other people for venting on if he's not a good venting person. Or the two of you may be poorly matched. You don't talk much about the rest of your relationship so it's tough to tell what might be happening there.
Again, there is no right answer and I think your insistence on framing this in a "how can I be wrong?" way is in and of itself problematic. This is not a tiny thing. I'm aware that you are frustrated and pissed off, but you are seeing this through a lens in which he somehow needs to prove to you that it is okay for him to give you advice when you are crying and really what you have is a bad dynamic where you don't seem to be abl to find a common ground. That is your problem.
posted by jessamyn at 1:16 PM on September 23, 2010 [32 favorites]
This is pretty much straight out of Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus (God help me.)
It is indeed very typically male to react to an upset loved one by looking for a solution to the underlying problem that caused the upset in the first place. Just as it's very typically female to be more interested in having the upsetness validated.
That said, if a man really wants to be supportive of his woman, the thing to do is understand where she's coming from and give her what she needs, not what he needs. Thinking of your desire to be accessed in a way that works for you as "manipulative" strikes me as pretty narcissistic, and just plain fucked up, frankly.
You being upset is about you being upset. It is not an opportunity for him to feel better about himself and show you how valuable he is by solving your problem for you.
posted by Naberius at 1:16 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
It is indeed very typically male to react to an upset loved one by looking for a solution to the underlying problem that caused the upset in the first place. Just as it's very typically female to be more interested in having the upsetness validated.
That said, if a man really wants to be supportive of his woman, the thing to do is understand where she's coming from and give her what she needs, not what he needs. Thinking of your desire to be accessed in a way that works for you as "manipulative" strikes me as pretty narcissistic, and just plain fucked up, frankly.
You being upset is about you being upset. It is not an opportunity for him to feel better about himself and show you how valuable he is by solving your problem for you.
posted by Naberius at 1:16 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
For lots of people, being cried at is very very stressful. Especially on the phone where they are very limited in how they can respond. Just because you feel like having a good cry on the phone with your boyfriend doesn't mean he has a reciprocal need to be cried at.
posted by hermitosis at 1:18 PM on September 23, 2010 [28 favorites]
posted by hermitosis at 1:18 PM on September 23, 2010 [28 favorites]
This is the nature of a ton and a half of male/female relationships, m'dear.
Woman: upset over ____. Wants to emotionally disgorge. For purposes of analogy, let's call this "wants to take a nice hot shower".
Man: upset that Woman is upset. Wants to solve for _____. For purposes of analogy, let's call this "stands around in bathroom, periodically muses aloud, "... perhaps you wouldn't NEED this shower if you hadn't gotten so muddy by doing X, Y and Z..."
End Result: woman is upset that man doesn't provide an emotional blankie (i.e. "handing soap and loofahs over the wall while clucking sympathetically"). Man is upset that woman doesn't see that he's trying to freaking HELP (i.e. "I was sad that you needed a shower! I wanted to see how we could prevent you from getting mud-splattered again!"). Snarl, hiss, growl.
Solution: find this out and you'll be a billionaire. I DO know that it's not okay for either party to penalize the other for acting guilelessly... thought DOES count for something in this situation, and limiting your reaction to "I am pissed that you didn't provide the support I needed!" is tantamount to saying "fuck you and your support".
posted by julthumbscrew at 1:18 PM on September 23, 2010 [8 favorites]
Woman: upset over ____. Wants to emotionally disgorge. For purposes of analogy, let's call this "wants to take a nice hot shower".
Man: upset that Woman is upset. Wants to solve for _____. For purposes of analogy, let's call this "stands around in bathroom, periodically muses aloud, "... perhaps you wouldn't NEED this shower if you hadn't gotten so muddy by doing X, Y and Z..."
End Result: woman is upset that man doesn't provide an emotional blankie (i.e. "handing soap and loofahs over the wall while clucking sympathetically"). Man is upset that woman doesn't see that he's trying to freaking HELP (i.e. "I was sad that you needed a shower! I wanted to see how we could prevent you from getting mud-splattered again!"). Snarl, hiss, growl.
Solution: find this out and you'll be a billionaire. I DO know that it's not okay for either party to penalize the other for acting guilelessly... thought DOES count for something in this situation, and limiting your reaction to "I am pissed that you didn't provide the support I needed!" is tantamount to saying "fuck you and your support".
posted by julthumbscrew at 1:18 PM on September 23, 2010 [8 favorites]
Or, everything that jessamyn said.
posted by hermitosis at 1:18 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by hermitosis at 1:18 PM on September 23, 2010
Can you think of any ways in which I might be the person in the wrong here and how?
You are assuming that your way of dealing with stress (venting, crying) is valid, and his way (thinking of ways to deal with problem) is invalid.
In this way, you are being no more understanding of him and his approach to dealing with emotions than he is of you. I don't either of you are bad people, because we all have our own ways of dealing with stuff, but if you can't accept his approaches you give him no reason to accept yours.
posted by modernnomad at 1:26 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
You are assuming that your way of dealing with stress (venting, crying) is valid, and his way (thinking of ways to deal with problem) is invalid.
In this way, you are being no more understanding of him and his approach to dealing with emotions than he is of you. I don't either of you are bad people, because we all have our own ways of dealing with stuff, but if you can't accept his approaches you give him no reason to accept yours.
posted by modernnomad at 1:26 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Everyone is capable of interpreting emotional venting as advice-seeking, and vice versa.
posted by muddgirl at 1:29 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 1:29 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
The two things I don't like about any of this is:
My current boyfriend has said to me several times that he feels as if he can really help me with my problems because he has a unique perspective and that he thinks our emotional issues are very similar.
He has said that I'm the only person he knows who reacts this way while upset and that other women he's known and have helped through their issues think his advice and consolation is awesome.
He said that to ask him to withhold advice when he thinks he can help is unfair to him and goes against his nature.
1. You're not other women
2. He's not a therapist of ANY KIND.
3. I doubt his perspective is unique, but his ego seems to be large
Here's the thing: when you're upset, you do actually get to say how you want to be treated. And people can either choose to interact with you or not. This situation isn't even your typical Mars/Venus cliche, it's got Mr. Women's Expert injecting himself here and not being able, at all, to hear his own girlfriend. Continuing to state how awesome he and his advice are and how she's the only person who doesn't think his advice is and that there is no way he could possibly STFU to listen for a few minutes, or even just stand there and let you cry it out, is not right. It is not good. It is not helpful.
Mr. Micawber has a hard time when I am upset and I have had to ask him more than once to please let me just feel my feelings. And I think it's great that he wants to come into the room and make the cat do amusing things to try to make me laugh but sometimes that's not what I want or need. He already knew about the whole "don't give me an action plan when I just want to bitch about idiots at work" thing before we started dating, so we didn't have that problem, but we do have this one.
So I say, "Please let me just have my feelings, it's very sweet you want to cheer me up but I need to go through this" and he'll nod and he'll look a little upset that he can't help but he backs off. He'll go put on headphones. He'll go for a walk.
I'm not dumping stuff on him and he's respecting my boundaries. I don't think your boundaries are being respected, but you also might want to find other ways to handle your stress besides crying to your boyfriend. There is no "I am only right here," sorry.
posted by micawber at 1:30 PM on September 23, 2010 [18 favorites]
My current boyfriend has said to me several times that he feels as if he can really help me with my problems because he has a unique perspective and that he thinks our emotional issues are very similar.
He has said that I'm the only person he knows who reacts this way while upset and that other women he's known and have helped through their issues think his advice and consolation is awesome.
He said that to ask him to withhold advice when he thinks he can help is unfair to him and goes against his nature.
1. You're not other women
2. He's not a therapist of ANY KIND.
3. I doubt his perspective is unique, but his ego seems to be large
Here's the thing: when you're upset, you do actually get to say how you want to be treated. And people can either choose to interact with you or not. This situation isn't even your typical Mars/Venus cliche, it's got Mr. Women's Expert injecting himself here and not being able, at all, to hear his own girlfriend. Continuing to state how awesome he and his advice are and how she's the only person who doesn't think his advice is and that there is no way he could possibly STFU to listen for a few minutes, or even just stand there and let you cry it out, is not right. It is not good. It is not helpful.
Mr. Micawber has a hard time when I am upset and I have had to ask him more than once to please let me just feel my feelings. And I think it's great that he wants to come into the room and make the cat do amusing things to try to make me laugh but sometimes that's not what I want or need. He already knew about the whole "don't give me an action plan when I just want to bitch about idiots at work" thing before we started dating, so we didn't have that problem, but we do have this one.
So I say, "Please let me just have my feelings, it's very sweet you want to cheer me up but I need to go through this" and he'll nod and he'll look a little upset that he can't help but he backs off. He'll go put on headphones. He'll go for a walk.
I'm not dumping stuff on him and he's respecting my boundaries. I don't think your boundaries are being respected, but you also might want to find other ways to handle your stress besides crying to your boyfriend. There is no "I am only right here," sorry.
posted by micawber at 1:30 PM on September 23, 2010 [18 favorites]
This is pretty much straight out of Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus (God help me.)
I was thinking the exact same thing! The two of you might find the book helpful for this situation.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:31 PM on September 23, 2010
I was thinking the exact same thing! The two of you might find the book helpful for this situation.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:31 PM on September 23, 2010
Perhaps you should limit the crying to in-person. Personally, I can do the boyfriend-listening-to-venting on the phone bit but I'd never, ever be able to last through the listening-to-crying one. It's too much, emotionally, and as someone raised to suppress his emotions and regard crying as a horrible thing that is only to be done when you lose an arm it just makes me feel absolutely terrible. You are crying because you are upset, I, on the other hand, am thinking you just lost a limb. The "OH GOD THERE'S SOMETHING HORRIBLE I NEED TO FIX GOING ON AT THE OTHER END OF THAT LINE" feelings go into overdrive and I end up just like your boyfriend, spouting off helpful bit of advice after advice just to get you to stop crying.
Perhaps a compromise is in order: no crying over the phone, venting okay, but no crying.
posted by griphus at 1:33 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Perhaps a compromise is in order: no crying over the phone, venting okay, but no crying.
posted by griphus at 1:33 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
For lots of people, being cried at is very very stressful.
One thing to consider is how often this crying is occurring and the variety of triggers. If you are getting upset on a regular basis and about the same thing, then your boyfriend is going to get ever more irritated that you aren't trying to solve the problem for yourself. Part of him trying to offer solutions could be to help you take active steps to prevent him from dealing with a lot of crying that's ruining his evenings.
posted by gabrielsamoza at 1:33 PM on September 23, 2010 [6 favorites]
One thing to consider is how often this crying is occurring and the variety of triggers. If you are getting upset on a regular basis and about the same thing, then your boyfriend is going to get ever more irritated that you aren't trying to solve the problem for yourself. Part of him trying to offer solutions could be to help you take active steps to prevent him from dealing with a lot of crying that's ruining his evenings.
posted by gabrielsamoza at 1:33 PM on September 23, 2010 [6 favorites]
Whenever I'm stressed out, overwhelmed, angry, etc., my very first reaction is to want to cry.
Like your ex (and perhaps your current boyfriend) I would be a bit freaked-out at your current defense mechanisms. It seems however that you've expressed to your current boyfriend that you would rather cry and do not need any advice or reassurance to feel better just a helping hand. Depending on how often you do this I dont think this is too much to ask for. If you were to do this once a month I guess it would be ok, but if I had to have a weekly or bi-weekly dose of crying I would do my best to solve whatever is making you cry in the first place. I think you already know what your tendencies are and the best course of action is to come up with a compromise with your boyfriend in how he will react to them rather than accusing him of being right or wrong.
posted by The1andonly at 1:34 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Like your ex (and perhaps your current boyfriend) I would be a bit freaked-out at your current defense mechanisms. It seems however that you've expressed to your current boyfriend that you would rather cry and do not need any advice or reassurance to feel better just a helping hand. Depending on how often you do this I dont think this is too much to ask for. If you were to do this once a month I guess it would be ok, but if I had to have a weekly or bi-weekly dose of crying I would do my best to solve whatever is making you cry in the first place. I think you already know what your tendencies are and the best course of action is to come up with a compromise with your boyfriend in how he will react to them rather than accusing him of being right or wrong.
posted by The1andonly at 1:34 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is, like, the most common relationship problem ever. It's a stereotype because it's so often true: women want to cry, men want to fix, both drive each other nuts.
Your boyfriend must be really young to not have learned this yet? Especially since he thinks you're being unreasonable by trying to "dictate" how you two interact? Tell him to ask his older male relatives/friends/coworkers/etc. if it's a good idea to try to give a woman advice when she's crying. He will be met with a combination of hearty laughter and "NOOOOOOOooooooooooo!"
Tell him that when you're still emotional that his job is to just listen, make sympathetic noises, hold you, buy you ice cream, etc. Then later, AFTER you've calmed down (maybe the next day), he can discuss possible solutions with you. Meanwhile, your job is to clearly communicate to him which mode you're in and to actually provide him an opportunity to help (instead of just listen) later when you're calm.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:40 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Your boyfriend must be really young to not have learned this yet? Especially since he thinks you're being unreasonable by trying to "dictate" how you two interact? Tell him to ask his older male relatives/friends/coworkers/etc. if it's a good idea to try to give a woman advice when she's crying. He will be met with a combination of hearty laughter and "NOOOOOOOooooooooooo!"
Tell him that when you're still emotional that his job is to just listen, make sympathetic noises, hold you, buy you ice cream, etc. Then later, AFTER you've calmed down (maybe the next day), he can discuss possible solutions with you. Meanwhile, your job is to clearly communicate to him which mode you're in and to actually provide him an opportunity to help (instead of just listen) later when you're calm.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:40 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Get him this book. It's about validating without judging or fixing. After he's done you should read it, too.
posted by rocket88 at 1:45 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by rocket88 at 1:45 PM on September 23, 2010
This is pretty much straight out of Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus (God help me.)
I was thinking the exact same thing! The two of you might find the book helpful for this situation.
Deborah Tannen's work also addresses this and other issues in typical male/female conversations.
posted by burnmp3s at 1:50 PM on September 23, 2010
I was thinking the exact same thing! The two of you might find the book helpful for this situation.
Deborah Tannen's work also addresses this and other issues in typical male/female conversations.
posted by burnmp3s at 1:50 PM on September 23, 2010
Crying for me has always been a fairly serious act, and so I'd similarly freak out if I were your boyfriend. Your frequent crying may not necessarily be a bad thing, and it's good that you're working on this with your therapist. However, it can certainly be difficult to deal with this as an outsider, when crying indicates a different level of upset to different people.
3. I doubt his perspective is unique, but his ego seems to be large
Agreed. People here seem to be aware of the fact that women want empathy* when they are upset and react poorly when are met with advice. But people don't mention the reason for this - it has to do with condescension. When we're upset, we aren't necessarily looking for advice on how to deal with the situation. Often we know how to deal with the situation, we're just upset and need to talk ourselves down, and that's best done with someone. But to have that someone who isn't even necessarily aware of the situation start loading us up with advice is frustrating. Call it mansplaining, manadvising, or whatever, that behavior is annoying under any circumstances, and to do it when someone's very upset just aggravates the situation.
This dynamic is similar to the recent XKCD comic about physicists. (And having known many a physicist, I can say this is pretty accurate.)
*Also, this discussion has to have a disclaimer - women aren't all like this, men aren't all like that.
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 2:00 PM on September 23, 2010 [5 favorites]
3. I doubt his perspective is unique, but his ego seems to be large
Agreed. People here seem to be aware of the fact that women want empathy* when they are upset and react poorly when are met with advice. But people don't mention the reason for this - it has to do with condescension. When we're upset, we aren't necessarily looking for advice on how to deal with the situation. Often we know how to deal with the situation, we're just upset and need to talk ourselves down, and that's best done with someone. But to have that someone who isn't even necessarily aware of the situation start loading us up with advice is frustrating. Call it mansplaining, manadvising, or whatever, that behavior is annoying under any circumstances, and to do it when someone's very upset just aggravates the situation.
This dynamic is similar to the recent XKCD comic about physicists. (And having known many a physicist, I can say this is pretty accurate.)
*Also, this discussion has to have a disclaimer - women aren't all like this, men aren't all like that.
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 2:00 PM on September 23, 2010 [5 favorites]
Your boyfriend's insistence on dispensing unwanted advice is problematic, and suggests he's not so good at relating to other people as he thinks he is. That said, a couple of things you said about your own behavior do strike me as potentially problematic.
2. In the past, whenever I've... cried, people were around to comfort me and make soothing noises until I calmed down enough to deal with the source of the anger, etc.
3. ...my most recent ex said I should go because he found my reaction to stress to be pretty weird and he felt uncomfortable around me whenever I cried. (Actually, his real words were that he thought I was manipulating him with my tears.,..
Here's what bothers me -- people offering support and care when you cry is kindness, but if you are crying intentionally, to cause people to rally around you and offer support, that is rather manipulative and immature. I don't know whether you're doing that, but it sounds like you might be. When you need sympathy, use your words and ask for it.
Of course, it's fine to ask someone to just listen and let you have a good cry if that's what you need. It's not fine to presume that this is the way it works for everybody, because it just isn't. Some people, at some times, are not up for listening to someone they care about crying. The fact that you want someone to support you this way does not entitle you to it. The other person's consent matters.
Also, crying during an argument can easily be manipulative. My ex-wife routinely burst into tears whenever I dared disagree with her, because I couldn't tolerate the crying and so I would back off and she would get her way. On everything. So don't do that either.
posted by jon1270 at 2:02 PM on September 23, 2010
2. In the past, whenever I've... cried, people were around to comfort me and make soothing noises until I calmed down enough to deal with the source of the anger, etc.
3. ...my most recent ex said I should go because he found my reaction to stress to be pretty weird and he felt uncomfortable around me whenever I cried. (Actually, his real words were that he thought I was manipulating him with my tears.,..
Here's what bothers me -- people offering support and care when you cry is kindness, but if you are crying intentionally, to cause people to rally around you and offer support, that is rather manipulative and immature. I don't know whether you're doing that, but it sounds like you might be. When you need sympathy, use your words and ask for it.
Of course, it's fine to ask someone to just listen and let you have a good cry if that's what you need. It's not fine to presume that this is the way it works for everybody, because it just isn't. Some people, at some times, are not up for listening to someone they care about crying. The fact that you want someone to support you this way does not entitle you to it. The other person's consent matters.
Also, crying during an argument can easily be manipulative. My ex-wife routinely burst into tears whenever I dared disagree with her, because I couldn't tolerate the crying and so I would back off and she would get her way. On everything. So don't do that either.
posted by jon1270 at 2:02 PM on September 23, 2010
A lot of people here seem to think that you don't want him to offer you solutions at all. That doesn't seem to be true, particularly after reading this:
I asked him to please let me vent and just get stuff out before he started offering suggestions...
I don't think what you are asking is weird at all. I am exactly the same way. When he offers you what can sometimes be a simple solution to your problem(s), it feels like your feelings are invalidated because you've just been doing it incorrectly all along. Often the solution isn't as easy as it may seem (really, folks, you're just going to tell her to find a new job because it's just that easy?), or you simply aren't ready to take the next step. Whatever it is, you need to feel like what you are feeling is real and important, and then after you get it all out, you can begin working on a solution.
Isn't that what most therapists do?
Tell him: "Darling, I know you want to help me make my life better. I love that you are there for me, and I know I can work on resolving these problems. However, sometimes I really need to get the pain out before working on a solution. It helps me to have a person to whom I can vent, and I like that you are that person. If you don't want to be that person, please tell me. Otherwise, I'll let you know when I'm ready to work on them and take your advice."
posted by two lights above the sea at 2:03 PM on September 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
I asked him to please let me vent and just get stuff out before he started offering suggestions...
I don't think what you are asking is weird at all. I am exactly the same way. When he offers you what can sometimes be a simple solution to your problem(s), it feels like your feelings are invalidated because you've just been doing it incorrectly all along. Often the solution isn't as easy as it may seem (really, folks, you're just going to tell her to find a new job because it's just that easy?), or you simply aren't ready to take the next step. Whatever it is, you need to feel like what you are feeling is real and important, and then after you get it all out, you can begin working on a solution.
Isn't that what most therapists do?
Tell him: "Darling, I know you want to help me make my life better. I love that you are there for me, and I know I can work on resolving these problems. However, sometimes I really need to get the pain out before working on a solution. It helps me to have a person to whom I can vent, and I like that you are that person. If you don't want to be that person, please tell me. Otherwise, I'll let you know when I'm ready to work on them and take your advice."
posted by two lights above the sea at 2:03 PM on September 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
He's being a bit of an egostistical crapass.
But! It may also help to consider what this is like for him. How often do you find yourself needing to vent? And how often is he the outlet for it?
For him, the venting process is more or less him being cried at. This is normally fine, and a lot of men are kind of fond of the occasional chance to hold their loved one and say "There, there," and all of that business. But if it happens all the time, then what he gets out of this is that he cannot help and that in fact his comforting noises are pointless - the most he can do is avoid turning your vent session into a fight about how he approaches problems. Either way, he just sort of gets cried at.
And you know what? For a lot of people, being cried at is incredibly stressful. If you do it a lot then he's offering solutions forcefully because he really wants it to stop.
Read some of the books offered and try to see things from each other's perspective, and recognize that being vented at is a passive act but not an easy one. Folks who say they need to let off steam are certainly entitled to, and it's a healthy thing, but it's worth considering what it's like to stand next to a steam vent for any real length of time.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 2:13 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
But! It may also help to consider what this is like for him. How often do you find yourself needing to vent? And how often is he the outlet for it?
For him, the venting process is more or less him being cried at. This is normally fine, and a lot of men are kind of fond of the occasional chance to hold their loved one and say "There, there," and all of that business. But if it happens all the time, then what he gets out of this is that he cannot help and that in fact his comforting noises are pointless - the most he can do is avoid turning your vent session into a fight about how he approaches problems. Either way, he just sort of gets cried at.
And you know what? For a lot of people, being cried at is incredibly stressful. If you do it a lot then he's offering solutions forcefully because he really wants it to stop.
Read some of the books offered and try to see things from each other's perspective, and recognize that being vented at is a passive act but not an easy one. Folks who say they need to let off steam are certainly entitled to, and it's a healthy thing, but it's worth considering what it's like to stand next to a steam vent for any real length of time.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 2:13 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
If your boy is a fixer, he's going to want to fix, and if you are a cryer, you are going to want to cry. You are hurting him just as much by crying to him when he cannot fix as he is by not listening when you need a listener.
You know it's going to put him in "I want to make this better" mode and get him wild with frustration, so stop crying to him if you don't want it fixed. This is what friends and therapists are for, not Mr. FixIt.
posted by Ys at 2:16 PM on September 23, 2010
You know it's going to put him in "I want to make this better" mode and get him wild with frustration, so stop crying to him if you don't want it fixed. This is what friends and therapists are for, not Mr. FixIt.
posted by Ys at 2:16 PM on September 23, 2010
You know what, actually, everything Jessamyn said is unstoppably correct, so instead of reading what I wrote, just re-read hers.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 2:22 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 2:22 PM on September 23, 2010
Hearing crying can bring back feelings of helplessness, rage, despair or just flat out panic. You don't know what may have happened in someone's life, from terrible tragedies to the everyday tragedies of a couple who don't get on and a little kid who doesn't understand.
In some people's families crying might be something that happens at the drop of a hat; in others it only happens when something unbelievably awful has happened and life is about to turn upside down. For some people it's associated with manipulation and manufactured drama, or with mental illness, or with a family dynamic where someone's only power was in crying, or with someone who spends all their time crying about their problems and none of it doing anything to fix any of those problems.
In addition to all of this, you must know yourself that it's the most frustrating thing in the world when someone close to you is hurting and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. What kind of a partner would you be, if when it comes to the crunch, your significant other is upset and there's nothing you can do to fix it?
posted by emilyw at 2:26 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
In some people's families crying might be something that happens at the drop of a hat; in others it only happens when something unbelievably awful has happened and life is about to turn upside down. For some people it's associated with manipulation and manufactured drama, or with mental illness, or with a family dynamic where someone's only power was in crying, or with someone who spends all their time crying about their problems and none of it doing anything to fix any of those problems.
In addition to all of this, you must know yourself that it's the most frustrating thing in the world when someone close to you is hurting and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. What kind of a partner would you be, if when it comes to the crunch, your significant other is upset and there's nothing you can do to fix it?
posted by emilyw at 2:26 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Wow. This is the second day in a row where I've read about a guy here and thought "I am that guy!"
Here's something you need to understand: his behavior seems perfectly rational to him, and yours does not. I'm not saying your behavior isn't rational. I'm saying that your boyfriend might not be able to understand regardless of how hard you try to explain it because his mind doesn't work that way.
Your post reads like it could have been written by a woman I dated years ago. It ended up being an issue we couldn't get past. My thinking is this: The first time she'd call to vent at me about a problem, I'd listen. The second time, I'd listen. By the third time, I'm going crazy thinking "If something doesn't change, we're going to go through this again and again and again!!!"
Your Boyfriend Is Not Your Emotional Punching Bag.
The idea of NOT being helpful is so completely foreign to me that I can't even comprehend it. But my ex didn't want any help. She just wanted to dump her problems on me and move on, feeling better. I'd feel worse, of course.
After two years, I dumped her. I should have dumped her after two months and I have no one but myself to blame for that... but I have to be honest, there isn't even a tiny part of me that regrets the end of that relationship.
There's a good chance you and your boyfriend aren't truly compatible.
posted by 2oh1 at 2:30 PM on September 23, 2010 [6 favorites]
Here's something you need to understand: his behavior seems perfectly rational to him, and yours does not. I'm not saying your behavior isn't rational. I'm saying that your boyfriend might not be able to understand regardless of how hard you try to explain it because his mind doesn't work that way.
Your post reads like it could have been written by a woman I dated years ago. It ended up being an issue we couldn't get past. My thinking is this: The first time she'd call to vent at me about a problem, I'd listen. The second time, I'd listen. By the third time, I'm going crazy thinking "If something doesn't change, we're going to go through this again and again and again!!!"
Your Boyfriend Is Not Your Emotional Punching Bag.
The idea of NOT being helpful is so completely foreign to me that I can't even comprehend it. But my ex didn't want any help. She just wanted to dump her problems on me and move on, feeling better. I'd feel worse, of course.
After two years, I dumped her. I should have dumped her after two months and I have no one but myself to blame for that... but I have to be honest, there isn't even a tiny part of me that regrets the end of that relationship.
There's a good chance you and your boyfriend aren't truly compatible.
posted by 2oh1 at 2:30 PM on September 23, 2010 [6 favorites]
Cry, THEN call.
posted by hermitosis at 2:43 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by hermitosis at 2:43 PM on September 23, 2010
Call, say "I feel like crap and need to vent, can I vent to you without you trying to solve the problem?" If he says no, carry on. If he says yes, call a friend. If he says no too often, accept it or find a new boyfriend.
posted by davejay at 3:00 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by davejay at 3:00 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Oh, and it IS frustrating to have your advice ignored, if the person you're advising continually ignores your advice and continues to have the same problems. It's a compromise for both of you, really: he needs to learn to listen when you need him to, but you need to learn to solve your problems beyond venting over and over again about the same things. Help each other learn.
posted by davejay at 3:01 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by davejay at 3:01 PM on September 23, 2010
Why does he have to be the only one you can talk to? Tell a girlfriend your problems. They're always the best ones to give the emotional support we are looking for.
posted by anniecat at 3:50 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by anniecat at 3:50 PM on September 23, 2010
1. Whenever I'm stressed out, overwhelmed, angry, etc., my very first reaction is to want to cry.
2. In the past, whenever I've felt overwhelmed/angry/stressed and I cried, people were around to comfort me and make soothing noises until I calmed down enough to deal with the source of the anger, etc.
So, I am wondering if you have not learned to self-soothe. It's an important skill. I'm not saying that you should always tough things out alone, but if you require somebody to talk you down from crying every time you're overwhelmed/angry/stressed out, you are asking for a lot. This tendency doesn't bode well for healthy relationships, nor for your own mental health. After all, there may be a day that there's nobody available when you're overwhelmed and then what? Rather than insisting your boyfriend accommodate you, I think you should look for healthier ways of coping.
posted by Wordwoman at 3:51 PM on September 23, 2010 [14 favorites]
2. In the past, whenever I've felt overwhelmed/angry/stressed and I cried, people were around to comfort me and make soothing noises until I calmed down enough to deal with the source of the anger, etc.
So, I am wondering if you have not learned to self-soothe. It's an important skill. I'm not saying that you should always tough things out alone, but if you require somebody to talk you down from crying every time you're overwhelmed/angry/stressed out, you are asking for a lot. This tendency doesn't bode well for healthy relationships, nor for your own mental health. After all, there may be a day that there's nobody available when you're overwhelmed and then what? Rather than insisting your boyfriend accommodate you, I think you should look for healthier ways of coping.
posted by Wordwoman at 3:51 PM on September 23, 2010 [14 favorites]
Would it be possible for you to get the worst of the emotional storm out at a doll or a chair or a cat? I understand your need to vent, but have to nth that being cried and vented AT, especially with a stricture to be passive, is really hard too. If you could find a safe and neutral target for the initial crying and venting, then you could meet boyfriend at a place closer to the emotional middle when you do call.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 3:57 PM on September 23, 2010
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 3:57 PM on September 23, 2010
People do vary in their ability and their willingness to listen to someone crying and venting, either in person or on the phone. There might be therapy which enables you to learn how to better handle your emotions. There is nothing more beneficial about crying in anger than there is about raging in anger, in my opinion. In both cases, the problem is the anger and the situation/s in which you feel anger. Therapy should help you learn how to deal with your emotions effectively.
Dumping a bucketful of tearful rage on someone you love is no more loving than dumping a diatribe of harsh and angry words, if not punching the wall, which behavior some people (stereotypically men) are sent to anger management classes to learn how to deal with.
I am aware that this analogy is not exact because you are probably dealing with frustration and the kind of anger that comes with powerlessness. Still, if you do not learn how to deal with the problem, you won't have a lifetime of boyfriends who accept the responsibility of making you feel better.
How you feel is your problem, in the final analysis, and you are not entitled to dump your feelings on others. You really can learn how to manage your emotions and be much happier most of the time.
posted by Anitanola at 4:07 PM on September 23, 2010
Dumping a bucketful of tearful rage on someone you love is no more loving than dumping a diatribe of harsh and angry words, if not punching the wall, which behavior some people (stereotypically men) are sent to anger management classes to learn how to deal with.
I am aware that this analogy is not exact because you are probably dealing with frustration and the kind of anger that comes with powerlessness. Still, if you do not learn how to deal with the problem, you won't have a lifetime of boyfriends who accept the responsibility of making you feel better.
How you feel is your problem, in the final analysis, and you are not entitled to dump your feelings on others. You really can learn how to manage your emotions and be much happier most of the time.
posted by Anitanola at 4:07 PM on September 23, 2010
I find it worrying that you knew in advance that you wanted a good cry on the phone with your boyfriend just listening. Planning emotional venting like that, and needing an external person to do it to, and needing them to act a certain specific way, sounds pretty unhealthy. Maybe your therapist is making things worse, not better if he is encouraging you to do this, and another therapist would be better? It sounds like you like things "just so" and if not "just so" then to be comforted and babied because, of course, things should be perfectly as you expect and want them to be. Your therapist should teach you practical coping skills for the real world, self-reliance, and better communication skills, plus you should work on these on your own too. The world is not going to change for you, you need to learn to adapt, be flexible and be strong. I don't think dating is currently a good idea.
posted by meepmeow at 4:14 PM on September 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by meepmeow at 4:14 PM on September 23, 2010 [3 favorites]
I'm afraid I've got to echo a lot of other responses coming up here and say that this is a problem between the two of you, not just with one or the other. On the one hand, your feelings are valid, and he shouldn't disregard your need to vent because he thinks that he knows best, but at the same time, knowing that someone you love is suffering and that you can't fix it is (in my experience) the single most frightening and painful experience of your life.
A few years ago I was in an incredibly intense long distance relationship with a mentally ill woman. At best, things were incredible, and I loved her desperately. At worst? She announced her intention to commit suicide to me and stopped taking my calls (fortunately I had contact information for her sister, and her family got to her before it was too late.) but between these two extremes, I had a lot of phone calls and emails loaded with a kind of pain that I couldn't repair.
I know that you can't help the way you feel, and I truly hope that your boyfriend finds a way to support you in a manner that you can accept, but I don't think that it's fair of you to expect him to respond the way that you want him to, to something which could be just as hard for him as your stresses are for you.
Your emotions on this are valid, your need to vent at someone to someone is valid, but so is his response to those emotions, and so is his need to try and help you. The bottom line is that you just need to find someone else to vent at, and try not to blame him for this (I don't want to assume anything, but the fact that you hold your ex responsible for the fact that you need therapy, because you couldn't accept his emotional response to you doing the same thing as you're doing here? Makes me think that this is something you need to be careful about.)
Anyway, good luck. Whatever happens with your boyfriend, I hope you find someone to listen to your venting.
posted by emperor.seamus at 4:22 PM on September 23, 2010
A few years ago I was in an incredibly intense long distance relationship with a mentally ill woman. At best, things were incredible, and I loved her desperately. At worst? She announced her intention to commit suicide to me and stopped taking my calls (fortunately I had contact information for her sister, and her family got to her before it was too late.) but between these two extremes, I had a lot of phone calls and emails loaded with a kind of pain that I couldn't repair.
I know that you can't help the way you feel, and I truly hope that your boyfriend finds a way to support you in a manner that you can accept, but I don't think that it's fair of you to expect him to respond the way that you want him to, to something which could be just as hard for him as your stresses are for you.
Your emotions on this are valid, your need to vent at someone to someone is valid, but so is his response to those emotions, and so is his need to try and help you. The bottom line is that you just need to find someone else to vent at, and try not to blame him for this (I don't want to assume anything, but the fact that you hold your ex responsible for the fact that you need therapy, because you couldn't accept his emotional response to you doing the same thing as you're doing here? Makes me think that this is something you need to be careful about.)
Anyway, good luck. Whatever happens with your boyfriend, I hope you find someone to listen to your venting.
posted by emperor.seamus at 4:22 PM on September 23, 2010
This isn't necessarily a male/female thing; people of either gender can make the annoying mistake of offering advice when what's wanted is support. Or of mistaking advice for support.
I find unsolicited advice in general to be annoying, but when one is in an emotional state it's like sandpaper on a raw nerve. The polite way to respond to this (which you seem to be doing) is to let him know that you *do* value him and his opinions, but you'd rather hear them later than right now. It's a tough one, because it would be easy for him to feel that you're telling him that his opinions mean nothing to you. On the other hand, if he persists, it would be easy for you to feel that he thinks you incapable of finding your own way out of these feelings.
The "other women... think his advice and consolation is awesome" thing is just bizarre. The best spin I can put on it is that perhaps it's important to him to see himself as capable of helping those he loves? Maybe that's his definition of being a good friend, a good boyfriend?
In general, perhaps he could agree to only offer advice if you ask for it? Or to preface his remarks with "I have an idea that might help; would you like to hear it?"
The bottom line is: This man has good intentions, but lacks insight, and he's stated that he can't/won't change (for now, anyway.) So if you want to stay with him, you'll have to live with him as he is. Let him be your cheerful cricket, chirping your way out of the darkness. When he annoys you insanely by saying "Do this! Try that! Why don't you[etc]" when what you want from him is "It's OK to cry. I love you, and you'll get through this just fine", realise that both sets of words just mean "I care." Accept that he's good in the advisor/problem solver/cheerleader role, and go to other friends (or your therapist) for pure support.
Good luck with this, and with him.
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:29 PM on September 23, 2010
I find unsolicited advice in general to be annoying, but when one is in an emotional state it's like sandpaper on a raw nerve. The polite way to respond to this (which you seem to be doing) is to let him know that you *do* value him and his opinions, but you'd rather hear them later than right now. It's a tough one, because it would be easy for him to feel that you're telling him that his opinions mean nothing to you. On the other hand, if he persists, it would be easy for you to feel that he thinks you incapable of finding your own way out of these feelings.
The "other women... think his advice and consolation is awesome" thing is just bizarre. The best spin I can put on it is that perhaps it's important to him to see himself as capable of helping those he loves? Maybe that's his definition of being a good friend, a good boyfriend?
In general, perhaps he could agree to only offer advice if you ask for it? Or to preface his remarks with "I have an idea that might help; would you like to hear it?"
The bottom line is: This man has good intentions, but lacks insight, and he's stated that he can't/won't change (for now, anyway.) So if you want to stay with him, you'll have to live with him as he is. Let him be your cheerful cricket, chirping your way out of the darkness. When he annoys you insanely by saying "Do this! Try that! Why don't you[etc]" when what you want from him is "It's OK to cry. I love you, and you'll get through this just fine", realise that both sets of words just mean "I care." Accept that he's good in the advisor/problem solver/cheerleader role, and go to other friends (or your therapist) for pure support.
Good luck with this, and with him.
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:29 PM on September 23, 2010
Read Deborah Tannen.
You don't get to control his behavior. You get to ask for what you want. He gets to respond. If a guy says "I won't give you the emotional support you want, because I know better" he's being dickish.
Crying. Crying keeps women from speaking. I think it's part of how we're raised for that reason. Supposedly, the meaty flesh between the thumb and hand is a pressure point to control crying.
Venting is okay, but if you do it a lot, it's a drag for whoever you vent to. I like to vent, and I have a very emotional personality, possibly at the lower level of bipolar. Learning that my emotions are real, but that I can let the difficult ones slide away, has been a big help. It's okay to be angry, upset, etc., but not always necessary to act.
I learned to walk away from fights. Really a good thing, really. Issues can be resolved later; fighting sucks up all your energy.
posted by theora55 at 4:49 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
You don't get to control his behavior. You get to ask for what you want. He gets to respond. If a guy says "I won't give you the emotional support you want, because I know better" he's being dickish.
Crying. Crying keeps women from speaking. I think it's part of how we're raised for that reason. Supposedly, the meaty flesh between the thumb and hand is a pressure point to control crying.
Venting is okay, but if you do it a lot, it's a drag for whoever you vent to. I like to vent, and I have a very emotional personality, possibly at the lower level of bipolar. Learning that my emotions are real, but that I can let the difficult ones slide away, has been a big help. It's okay to be angry, upset, etc., but not always necessary to act.
I learned to walk away from fights. Really a good thing, really. Issues can be resolved later; fighting sucks up all your energy.
posted by theora55 at 4:49 PM on September 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's normal to feel stressed, overwhelmed, or angry when you encounter a situation you don't know how to deal with. What happens next is that you figure out how to deal with it so that you aren't made stressed, overwhelmed, or angry by that situation in the future. And by that I mean you figure out how to deal with it yourself, without having to rely on others for support. It is good to have people who will support you, but sometimes you won't, so it's important that you can do it yourself even though it is harder.
How often you will encounter such situations depends on how old you are. If you are 18, you will be encountering new-to-you potentially stressful situations almost constantly because you have never dealt with any of the things that all adults have to deal with. Ten or fifteen years later, you should be freaking out, oh, a few times a year, at things like losing a job you really, really need or finding out that your child is autistic. The fact that you had a lousy day at work should not faze you at that point. You will have had dozens of lousy days at work in ten years and learned how to cope. This learning process is called growing up.
You do sound fairly young to me. Are you in fact making the effort to learn how to handle the situations you find stressful? (It is fine to freak out first, at least while you are learning how to deal, as long as you eventually get down to business.) Do you find you often want to cry at situations that have happened to you before, even recently, because you haven't yet learned to deal with them? If this is the case, then your boyfriend has probably taken it upon himself to help you simply because he feels you need the help. Perhaps he has noticed a pattern that you have not. I am not saying that he is right; he is being tactless in many ways from what you say. But perhaps he is frustrated that you don't seem, to him, to be making much progress in mastering your emotions.
This is easier for men than women, I think; at least, it is expected of men at an earlier age, and he has more experience (though he is probably not the expert he thinks he is). I think it is worth keeping in mind that he is doing this because he cares, even if he is being clumsy at expressing that truth.
I do think you need a better therapist, one who can give you some tools for dealing with the things that make you want to break into tears rather than trying to figure out why you react that way. Cognitive-behavioral therapists can be really good for that.
posted by kindall at 5:08 PM on September 23, 2010
How often you will encounter such situations depends on how old you are. If you are 18, you will be encountering new-to-you potentially stressful situations almost constantly because you have never dealt with any of the things that all adults have to deal with. Ten or fifteen years later, you should be freaking out, oh, a few times a year, at things like losing a job you really, really need or finding out that your child is autistic. The fact that you had a lousy day at work should not faze you at that point. You will have had dozens of lousy days at work in ten years and learned how to cope. This learning process is called growing up.
You do sound fairly young to me. Are you in fact making the effort to learn how to handle the situations you find stressful? (It is fine to freak out first, at least while you are learning how to deal, as long as you eventually get down to business.) Do you find you often want to cry at situations that have happened to you before, even recently, because you haven't yet learned to deal with them? If this is the case, then your boyfriend has probably taken it upon himself to help you simply because he feels you need the help. Perhaps he has noticed a pattern that you have not. I am not saying that he is right; he is being tactless in many ways from what you say. But perhaps he is frustrated that you don't seem, to him, to be making much progress in mastering your emotions.
This is easier for men than women, I think; at least, it is expected of men at an earlier age, and he has more experience (though he is probably not the expert he thinks he is). I think it is worth keeping in mind that he is doing this because he cares, even if he is being clumsy at expressing that truth.
I do think you need a better therapist, one who can give you some tools for dealing with the things that make you want to break into tears rather than trying to figure out why you react that way. Cognitive-behavioral therapists can be really good for that.
posted by kindall at 5:08 PM on September 23, 2010
My wife and I had some issues with her need to vent in our relationship and it might be useful to talk about the hows and whys of the solution we found. My wife has a definite need to vent fairly regularly and sometimes this takes the form of tears. This did prove to be a problem for a while but we found a solution when we recognized it was not what was going on that was the problem, but how it was going on.
In particular, if she was very stressed, my partner would sometimes unburden herself by coming in and immediately starting to vent, interrupting whatever I was doing, then when she was done, closing down the conversation because had said what she needed to say and didn't want to talk about this anymore. I took to calling this emotional dumping because it started to feel like she was running up and dropping a huge turd in my lap, then saying "I'm glad I got rid of that" before running off again leaving me holding it with no place to put it.
What needs to be looked at is the process of emotional transference that is going on. The person venting feels an understandable need to discharge stress by letting it out. Done badly, however, this merely acts to transfer the stress from one person to another. That person then has there own need to discharge that stress. This means that their own reactions to stress kick in, such as a need to immediately find answers as a way of preventing and resolving that stress. Worse still, if they are prevented from discharging it it will mutate itself into other forms such as growing resentment, or an unwillingness to listen, or discharge itself in other (inappropriate ways) such as arguing.
When it is done well the other person acts more like a lightning rod, grounding the stress and letting it drain away to earth without it negatively affecting them.
We solved this is two important ways:
First: Asking Permission. My partner is free to vent whenever she wants as long as she asks or gets permission first. It cannot very unreasonably refused but she knows I'm free to say "I need to finish this first, then I can listen to you" or even "I'm feeling kind of stressed myself I'm not sure I can deal with this". This ensures I have time to mentally ground and prepare myself. This is a win-win situation because a) I don't get stressed out by the process and b)I'm therefore in a place to giver her the attention she needs.
When you call your boyfriend do you tend to launch straight into things or hold off and take the temperature first? Phone call can be a particular problem because there is less context and they can feel like they come out of the blue. If you are not careful, and regardless of what you intended, if you immediately launch into things to the person on the receiving end it can start to feel like the other persons needs always take priority. People who are not the venting type often need to build up to things slowly, and prefer to let stuff out piece by piece as they feel increasing secure. it is important that they don't feel their own needs are being pushed out.
Second: We placed it in a context of mutual listening. In particular the person who is being asked to listen should be the one who chooses when to end the conversation, or to respond in a different time (place and manner) as they feel appropriate. Paradoxically, perhaps, this means I feel the need to respond or react much less because I know I will be listened to if I do have something to say whether its to point out something I think my partner is avoiding or not dealing well with or even "that's the third time you have come bitching about this this week and you still aren't prepared to do anything about it and quite frankly I'm not prepared to listen to you going on about it till you do."The need to feel we are being listened to is a fundamental emotional need and even if your boyfriends response is inappropriate you are not going to get to a place where he can hear and take that on board unless you are prepared to hear him out first.
Our relationship has been built on the bedrock of learning to step aside from ourselves, for a moment, to identify issues and tackle them directly, putting to one side the disputes of the moment. Discretion is the better part of valour and you might be wise to put aside thoughts of who is right and who is wrong here and think of how to move past this. As the original quote goes 'The better part of valour is discretion; in the which better part I have saved my life.'
posted by tallus at 5:46 PM on September 23, 2010 [13 favorites]
In particular, if she was very stressed, my partner would sometimes unburden herself by coming in and immediately starting to vent, interrupting whatever I was doing, then when she was done, closing down the conversation because had said what she needed to say and didn't want to talk about this anymore. I took to calling this emotional dumping because it started to feel like she was running up and dropping a huge turd in my lap, then saying "I'm glad I got rid of that" before running off again leaving me holding it with no place to put it.
What needs to be looked at is the process of emotional transference that is going on. The person venting feels an understandable need to discharge stress by letting it out. Done badly, however, this merely acts to transfer the stress from one person to another. That person then has there own need to discharge that stress. This means that their own reactions to stress kick in, such as a need to immediately find answers as a way of preventing and resolving that stress. Worse still, if they are prevented from discharging it it will mutate itself into other forms such as growing resentment, or an unwillingness to listen, or discharge itself in other (inappropriate ways) such as arguing.
When it is done well the other person acts more like a lightning rod, grounding the stress and letting it drain away to earth without it negatively affecting them.
We solved this is two important ways:
First: Asking Permission. My partner is free to vent whenever she wants as long as she asks or gets permission first. It cannot very unreasonably refused but she knows I'm free to say "I need to finish this first, then I can listen to you" or even "I'm feeling kind of stressed myself I'm not sure I can deal with this". This ensures I have time to mentally ground and prepare myself. This is a win-win situation because a) I don't get stressed out by the process and b)I'm therefore in a place to giver her the attention she needs.
When you call your boyfriend do you tend to launch straight into things or hold off and take the temperature first? Phone call can be a particular problem because there is less context and they can feel like they come out of the blue. If you are not careful, and regardless of what you intended, if you immediately launch into things to the person on the receiving end it can start to feel like the other persons needs always take priority. People who are not the venting type often need to build up to things slowly, and prefer to let stuff out piece by piece as they feel increasing secure. it is important that they don't feel their own needs are being pushed out.
Second: We placed it in a context of mutual listening. In particular the person who is being asked to listen should be the one who chooses when to end the conversation, or to respond in a different time (place and manner) as they feel appropriate. Paradoxically, perhaps, this means I feel the need to respond or react much less because I know I will be listened to if I do have something to say whether its to point out something I think my partner is avoiding or not dealing well with or even "that's the third time you have come bitching about this this week and you still aren't prepared to do anything about it and quite frankly I'm not prepared to listen to you going on about it till you do."The need to feel we are being listened to is a fundamental emotional need and even if your boyfriends response is inappropriate you are not going to get to a place where he can hear and take that on board unless you are prepared to hear him out first.
Our relationship has been built on the bedrock of learning to step aside from ourselves, for a moment, to identify issues and tackle them directly, putting to one side the disputes of the moment. Discretion is the better part of valour and you might be wise to put aside thoughts of who is right and who is wrong here and think of how to move past this. As the original quote goes 'The better part of valour is discretion; in the which better part I have saved my life.'
posted by tallus at 5:46 PM on September 23, 2010 [13 favorites]
Hi OP, fellow crier here. And no, I'm not fairly young, and think I've managed to navigate life's vagaries successfully despite my crying! The key here is to understand your emotional response, rather than try to change it. We all react differently to situations. Some people need to be alone. Some people need to go to an open space/grab a pillow and scream. Some people need to write on their blog. Some people internalize. Some people brainstorm solutions. Some people cry for 5 minutes then it's over.
For some reason, some people are programmed to think that the only appropriate response to a situation is a calm one, or one that is hell bent on solution finding. I find this sad - sometimes a let out of emotions can be so cathartic and can give you the mental clarity you need.
Like you, I also don't want solutions right then and there - I do know however exactly how long I NEED to be emotional for (usually 5 minutes), then I can start talking clearly about these issues. I have found that it is helpful to tell people that you are FINE, and just need a moment to compose yourself and want to let it out.
Wordwoman speaks wisely - being a crier is not in itself a bad thing, but you MUST learn to self soothe to adequately manage your emotions when alone. You should start paying attention to how you feel before it comes along and make allowances. I can usually feel the tension rise in my throat and often have enough time to duck into a bathroom or a quiet area.
This works with friends or acquaintances, and isn't just for criers. If you can better understand your own emotional responses, then you can communicate clearly to the people who may be affected by it. I cannot abide by people who claim that MY personal actions have somehow MADE them feel a certain way. I certainly do not foist my crying habits onto anyone any more than they choose to slurp their soup in a way that makes me shudder, or not wash their hands adequately after peeing in a way that makes my skin crawl.
I too had an ex who told me my crying was manipulative. I thought his silences and passive aggression when he was upset (with anyone/anything) was manipulative. Somehow, society prefers the silent people who need time outs, not the expressive ones who just need a few minutes to compose themselves. I had another ex who told me he was uncomfortable with ANY crying so could not be expected to be sympathetic or empathetic. Bollocks.
Maybe it took me too long to realise, but there are partners out there who may understand your way, not because they are criers themselves but because they care intrinsically about the overall outcome of your interaction and well being, not just their feelings of discomfort. Comforting others who are upset is never all that pleasant, but is an important skill for most people.
When I cry and my SO launches into solution mode, I gently remind him that all I want for 5 minutes are pats and hugs. He complies because that is what I need. If he feels he can't comply, he urges me to go have a hot shower and cry it out whilst he makes me a cuppa. THEN we sit and chat about it. He's not a crier - he's a brooder. And he gently reminds me that he needs alone time and when he's ready, I can make him a cuppa for discussion time about his issues.
We do this for each other because understanding each others emotional responses is what love is, not trying to control them or make them "right/wrong". The issue here seems to me to be:
1. You may or may not know how to self soothe/convey clearly what you need. This isn't clear from your post, but trying to understand your own needs to the finest detail is paramount.
2. You are going out with men who are self-absorbed, and can only care for you on the basis of how it affects THEM - this to me, is not real care. Find someone who has an ability to accept people and make sure you accept them too. Then work on how you both handle stressful situations and communicate with each other in times of duress.
Sorry for the essay and making MYSELF sound like Queen Crier of the Universe. I only cry about once a month! For real! But wanted to come in here to let you know that it's perfectly normal, at least for me and you.
Ps, I had trouble with this comment:
Here's what bothers me -- people offering support and care when you cry is kindness, but if you are crying intentionally, to cause people to rally around you and offer support, that is rather manipulative and immature. I don't know whether you're doing that, but it sounds like you might be. When you need sympathy, use your words and ask for it.
Jon1270 - at no point did the OP state that she needed an audience to cry, she simply said that it so happened that other times she had cried, she'd had appropriate support around her. Please do not assume that all criers are manipulators who desire an audience - whilst most criers (and I think most upset people) like to be rallied around and supported, I think you'll find mostly, we're mortified for behaving that way in public.
posted by shazzam! at 5:54 PM on September 23, 2010 [5 favorites]
For some reason, some people are programmed to think that the only appropriate response to a situation is a calm one, or one that is hell bent on solution finding. I find this sad - sometimes a let out of emotions can be so cathartic and can give you the mental clarity you need.
Like you, I also don't want solutions right then and there - I do know however exactly how long I NEED to be emotional for (usually 5 minutes), then I can start talking clearly about these issues. I have found that it is helpful to tell people that you are FINE, and just need a moment to compose yourself and want to let it out.
Wordwoman speaks wisely - being a crier is not in itself a bad thing, but you MUST learn to self soothe to adequately manage your emotions when alone. You should start paying attention to how you feel before it comes along and make allowances. I can usually feel the tension rise in my throat and often have enough time to duck into a bathroom or a quiet area.
This works with friends or acquaintances, and isn't just for criers. If you can better understand your own emotional responses, then you can communicate clearly to the people who may be affected by it. I cannot abide by people who claim that MY personal actions have somehow MADE them feel a certain way. I certainly do not foist my crying habits onto anyone any more than they choose to slurp their soup in a way that makes me shudder, or not wash their hands adequately after peeing in a way that makes my skin crawl.
I too had an ex who told me my crying was manipulative. I thought his silences and passive aggression when he was upset (with anyone/anything) was manipulative. Somehow, society prefers the silent people who need time outs, not the expressive ones who just need a few minutes to compose themselves. I had another ex who told me he was uncomfortable with ANY crying so could not be expected to be sympathetic or empathetic. Bollocks.
Maybe it took me too long to realise, but there are partners out there who may understand your way, not because they are criers themselves but because they care intrinsically about the overall outcome of your interaction and well being, not just their feelings of discomfort. Comforting others who are upset is never all that pleasant, but is an important skill for most people.
When I cry and my SO launches into solution mode, I gently remind him that all I want for 5 minutes are pats and hugs. He complies because that is what I need. If he feels he can't comply, he urges me to go have a hot shower and cry it out whilst he makes me a cuppa. THEN we sit and chat about it. He's not a crier - he's a brooder. And he gently reminds me that he needs alone time and when he's ready, I can make him a cuppa for discussion time about his issues.
We do this for each other because understanding each others emotional responses is what love is, not trying to control them or make them "right/wrong". The issue here seems to me to be:
1. You may or may not know how to self soothe/convey clearly what you need. This isn't clear from your post, but trying to understand your own needs to the finest detail is paramount.
2. You are going out with men who are self-absorbed, and can only care for you on the basis of how it affects THEM - this to me, is not real care. Find someone who has an ability to accept people and make sure you accept them too. Then work on how you both handle stressful situations and communicate with each other in times of duress.
Sorry for the essay and making MYSELF sound like Queen Crier of the Universe. I only cry about once a month! For real! But wanted to come in here to let you know that it's perfectly normal, at least for me and you.
Ps, I had trouble with this comment:
Here's what bothers me -- people offering support and care when you cry is kindness, but if you are crying intentionally, to cause people to rally around you and offer support, that is rather manipulative and immature. I don't know whether you're doing that, but it sounds like you might be. When you need sympathy, use your words and ask for it.
Jon1270 - at no point did the OP state that she needed an audience to cry, she simply said that it so happened that other times she had cried, she'd had appropriate support around her. Please do not assume that all criers are manipulators who desire an audience - whilst most criers (and I think most upset people) like to be rallied around and supported, I think you'll find mostly, we're mortified for behaving that way in public.
posted by shazzam! at 5:54 PM on September 23, 2010 [5 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
Thank you all of you who have responded so far. I've been readingposted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:36 PM on September 23, 2010
through the replies, and here's some clarification on some matters:
Have you considered CBT? Three years of "exploring those feelings"
seems like a long time to me.
I currently pay for my therapist without the help of insurance and he
lowered his usually sizable rates for me. It's very convenient to the
office, he and I have discussed my dissatisfaction with some aspects
of the therapy and I've even said to him that I wished he were a CBT
therapist. It acutally became a topic for the next session, and then
we end up discovering even more things. (We also talk a lot about
what my expressed and unexpressed wishes are... is there a name for
this type of therapist?)
Your therapist should teach you practical coping skills for the
real world, self-reliance, and better communication skills, plus
you should work on these on your own too. (emphasis mine)
I've been trying to do exactly that for the last three years. I'm
also afraid of trying to find a new therapist because that almost
means starting over from scratch. And if you can find me a therapist
in one of the most expensive cities in the world who charges the
equivalent of 45 EUR per session out-of-pocket and also works near the
city center and can take me as a new patient before regular
business hours once a week because I'm usually at the office till 0730
or later, then fair play to you.
Re: Problem-Solving
My problems with work is an on-going issue which he and I actually
managed to address recently, but how it went down was this:
Me: *comes home from work, frustrated, wanting to vent*
Him: *offers advice about how to fix the work problem(s)*
Me: *gets angry when venting is interrupted, expresses frustration*
[Uncomfortable feelings until mood passes]
[Time passes]
Me: *picks up where he left off and discusses strategies based on what
he said and offers reasons as to why she can't do what he suggested
right now, but offers new strategy in its place based on his
suggestions*
I call that a win because I did listen to his advice, just in my own
time. Apparently, this is very important to me because that's how I
best learn how not to do things. *insert parental issues*
I don't have very many female friends because I burned those bridges a
few years ago when my crying/venting "problem" was at its worst. The
one close female friend I have right now is also a friend of his, and
so I'm trying not to involve her too much. Also, I have almost never
had any close female friends; my best friend is a guy. *insert
mother/older sister issues* Of the remaining close friends I have
across the world, I also don't want to vent on them too many times
because I'm afraid of burning those bridges, so I don't. So yes, I
know that venting is and can be a problem.
Tell him: "Darling, I know you want to help me make my life better.
I love that you are there for me, and I know I can work on resolving
these problems. However, sometimes I really need to get the pain out
before working on a solution. It helps me to have a person to whom I
can vent, and I like that you are that person. If you don't want to be
that person, please tell me. Otherwise, I'll let you know when I'm
ready to work on them and take your advice."
I really like this, but the problem is that he does want to be
the person I come to first when I'm having problems. I can't get into
any more detail than that because of his private issues.
Would it be possible for you to get the worst of the emotional
storm out at a doll or a chair or a cat?
A cat???? Man, that's harsh.
I have not yet learned how to self-soothe in ways that don't involve
self-medicating and I'm currently making my most successful run at
quitting smoking. I don't make enough money and time to be able to go
to a gym or take martial arts classes. I don't have time or space to
craft. When I journal privately, it results in me turning my anger
inwards and making me hate myself even more.
This is pretty much straight out of Men are From Mars, Women are
From Venus (God help me.)
I was thinking the exact same thing! The two of you might find the
book helpful for this situation.
I told him the generics behind the book's philosophy, and he thought
it was bunk and didn't apply to our situation.
You do sound fairly young to me. Are you in fact making the effort
to learn how to handle the situations you find stressful? (It is fine
to freak out first, at least while you are learning how to deal, as
long as you eventually get down to business.) Do you find you often
want to cry at situations that have happened to you before, even
recently, because you haven't yet learned to deal with them?
In the time I've been with this therapist, I've able to deal with some
of my immediate work-stressors and improve communication with my
superiors and associates, my remaining friends and my parents and
other family members. Things are a lot better now than they were two
or three years ago. But when a strategy I've used before in one
situation doesn't work in the same or similar situation, then I become
stressed out again, thinking that I haven't progressed at all.
In short, I recognize that I haven't really grown up, even though I'm
theoretically old enough to have seen the first Star Wars movie in the
theaters. (I didn't, but I'm a member of that generation.) My
boyfriend brought up a Joseph Campbell concept to me recently in which
there's usually an event in the hero's journey which forces a person
to leave their childhood behind, and I recognize that hasn't happened
to me yet.
This has been really helpful to me and I'm no longer rage-angry. I'll
let you know via our mods how things go on Saturday.
You need to dump him, and find a boyfriend who enjoys listening to crying on the telephone.
Or the other options.
posted by ovvl at 6:36 PM on September 23, 2010
Or the other options.
posted by ovvl at 6:36 PM on September 23, 2010
What exactly do you expect him to do while you're crying? If offering suggestions to fix the problem is off-limits, what do you expect of him? Do you just want him to remain silent while you cry at him? Do you want him to make soothing coo-cooing sounds like you'd make to an infant? Serious question here. What is it that you want? "That sucks. It'll be OK. You're so much better than that. It's all right. You'll be a strong person. Don't worry. There, there. Blah, blah. Insipid, empty Hallmark cliche go here. Picture of kitten on clothesline go there?" Does someone blathering off feel-good platitudes really make you feel better?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:55 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:55 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Show him this thread.
Now, there was a MetaTalk the other day about what people mean when they say "Show him this thread" as advice in AskMetafilter. Someone said it doesn't literally mean that -- it just means "Tell him what you've told us." So I want to be completely clear. I don't just mean "Tell him what you've told us." I literally mean: print out this thread or send him the URL and ask him to read the whole thing.
As others have mentioned, it seems like part (not all) of his problem is he's apparently not aware that this divide is not just some weird thing between the two of you (as if you should just snap out of it and listen to his advice the way he thinks a reasonable person should) but an extremely common problem in relationships. It comes up over and over. Always has and always will. He can't just wish away this phenomenon -- especially not with you!
posted by John Cohen at 7:29 PM on September 23, 2010
Now, there was a MetaTalk the other day about what people mean when they say "Show him this thread" as advice in AskMetafilter. Someone said it doesn't literally mean that -- it just means "Tell him what you've told us." So I want to be completely clear. I don't just mean "Tell him what you've told us." I literally mean: print out this thread or send him the URL and ask him to read the whole thing.
As others have mentioned, it seems like part (not all) of his problem is he's apparently not aware that this divide is not just some weird thing between the two of you (as if you should just snap out of it and listen to his advice the way he thinks a reasonable person should) but an extremely common problem in relationships. It comes up over and over. Always has and always will. He can't just wish away this phenomenon -- especially not with you!
posted by John Cohen at 7:29 PM on September 23, 2010
My boyfriend brought up a Joseph Campbell concept to me recently in which there's usually an event in the hero's journey which forces a person to leave their childhood behind, and I recognize that hasn't happened to me yet.
Growing up is an ongoing process. We're all learning as we go. Don't worry about there being some sort of major life-changing event that suddenly makes you leave your childhood issues behind. It sounds like you're getting really caught up in your past - and actually like maybe your therapist is enabling that at this point.
posted by wondermouse at 8:42 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Growing up is an ongoing process. We're all learning as we go. Don't worry about there being some sort of major life-changing event that suddenly makes you leave your childhood issues behind. It sounds like you're getting really caught up in your past - and actually like maybe your therapist is enabling that at this point.
posted by wondermouse at 8:42 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
The idea that there will be a "BANG!" moment, after which you leave your childhood behind is both foolish and dangerous. Sure, it happens for some people, but that's not the norm. Most people grow up as they grow older and find themselves in an adult world with adult situations and circumstances.
For me, there was a bang moment. At age 17, I left everything I knew behind and moved to a third world country where things didn't work out as planned. But is that the norm for most children? No way.
If you (the O.P.) are still trapped in your childhood, you need to let it go because it's already long gone. You're in your mid 30s.
Is that sad? No, not really. The here and now is a pretty marvelous place to be - especially for you. You have love in your life! ...a loving boyfriend. Rather than beating him up verbally in one sided fights (that's probably what they feel like to him - trust me, I've been there and that's what they felt like) you should come to him for love. If you need something to beat up, might I suggest kickboxing? I'm not being facetious. I know a woman who did exactly that.
posted by 2oh1 at 11:36 PM on September 23, 2010
For me, there was a bang moment. At age 17, I left everything I knew behind and moved to a third world country where things didn't work out as planned. But is that the norm for most children? No way.
If you (the O.P.) are still trapped in your childhood, you need to let it go because it's already long gone. You're in your mid 30s.
Is that sad? No, not really. The here and now is a pretty marvelous place to be - especially for you. You have love in your life! ...a loving boyfriend. Rather than beating him up verbally in one sided fights (that's probably what they feel like to him - trust me, I've been there and that's what they felt like) you should come to him for love. If you need something to beat up, might I suggest kickboxing? I'm not being facetious. I know a woman who did exactly that.
posted by 2oh1 at 11:36 PM on September 23, 2010
Ultimately each person has his or her own way to deal with stress. Crying just might be part of your MO, and you shouldn't feel necessarily bad about it. Thinking of therapy as a way to "fix" some messed up part of you might not be the best way to look at it (though understanding yourself better is always worthwhile!).
My current GF of about 6 months would occasionally freak out from stress and have a cry, and I reacted much like it sounds like your boyfriend reacted: advice on how to better handle the situation in the future. For me, it's hard to see someone upset, and so my instinct is, "OK, how can I help them not be upset next time?"
GF explained to me that she just needs to vent and have her hand held and that she'll be fine when she's in those states. She did not want advice, but rather companionship. This was her telling me what she needed. So since we had that talk the couple times similar situations have come up I've simply listened, and it's been fine for both of us.
I think, ultimately, only you know what you need in terms of support and to be happy. No one can read your mind, so I think it's commendable that you've tried to explain yourself to him ("Hey, this is how I am, this is what I need."). For the relationship to work, he has to be willing to listen to your needs and respect them. A person's needs are not always rational, and they can't just be willed away with advice or logic (as nice as such a thing might be). The role of a partner is to understand and respect yours, whatever they may be, and the same goes for your regarding his. Even if he can't completely empathize with your way of dealing with stress, he should still be able to acknowledge that it's just part of who you are, and as unique as he might feel his perspective to be, he's still not you, so that it's necessarily not a perfect point of view.
I had a previous long-term failed relationship where a huge problem was that my ex did not ever really listen to me...at some point it's unsustainable. Try focusing on that specific problem, and if he can't come around then you might want to consider finding someone that will respect you for the whole package, warts and all, rather than feeling compelled to try to fix you with advice.
Good luck to you.
posted by kryptonik at 6:21 AM on September 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
My current GF of about 6 months would occasionally freak out from stress and have a cry, and I reacted much like it sounds like your boyfriend reacted: advice on how to better handle the situation in the future. For me, it's hard to see someone upset, and so my instinct is, "OK, how can I help them not be upset next time?"
GF explained to me that she just needs to vent and have her hand held and that she'll be fine when she's in those states. She did not want advice, but rather companionship. This was her telling me what she needed. So since we had that talk the couple times similar situations have come up I've simply listened, and it's been fine for both of us.
I think, ultimately, only you know what you need in terms of support and to be happy. No one can read your mind, so I think it's commendable that you've tried to explain yourself to him ("Hey, this is how I am, this is what I need."). For the relationship to work, he has to be willing to listen to your needs and respect them. A person's needs are not always rational, and they can't just be willed away with advice or logic (as nice as such a thing might be). The role of a partner is to understand and respect yours, whatever they may be, and the same goes for your regarding his. Even if he can't completely empathize with your way of dealing with stress, he should still be able to acknowledge that it's just part of who you are, and as unique as he might feel his perspective to be, he's still not you, so that it's necessarily not a perfect point of view.
I had a previous long-term failed relationship where a huge problem was that my ex did not ever really listen to me...at some point it's unsustainable. Try focusing on that specific problem, and if he can't come around then you might want to consider finding someone that will respect you for the whole package, warts and all, rather than feeling compelled to try to fix you with advice.
Good luck to you.
posted by kryptonik at 6:21 AM on September 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
I call these 'poor baby' moments. They are times when I don't need advice (eventually I will but not at that moment) but someone to hold my hand and say "poor baby" or other sympathetic phrases and sounds for a few minutes. They actually are pretty rare but can definitely help when all I need is someone to listen. The caveat being that I am very clear in communicating what I need before I unload on them. If they are unable to help me at that time then I accept that, and go onto another of my personal support network.
posted by tar0tgr1 at 6:59 AM on September 24, 2010
posted by tar0tgr1 at 6:59 AM on September 24, 2010
This is a very common pattern.
Woman feels overwhelming emotion and needs to feel heard and felt by the man.
Man feels that overwhelming emotion = emergency therefore a solution to the causing problem is needed immediately!
It takes time and experience before a man realizes that the solution is to witness and hold the space for a woman's feelings. Nothing to do, but be there. Veeery hard for a man when he's panicked ("she's crying, something's wrong, MUST FIX NOW!").
Immediate solutions may be to
1. Call someone else to vent
2. After all tension around this incident is gone, have a conversation with the man, and outline a game plan where he knows what to DO when you say "I want to vent." Make sure he understands that what he's doing is providing you with emotional support. Make sure he *repeats it back to you* and role play a few times, having fun with correcting his urge to solve the situation.
Make sure he understands that he is SOLVING THE ISSUE by listening to you.
Men are wired for quick solutions, this is just how it is. Speak to him in a language he can relate to and you may have success.
In my relationship, when I get the teary call, I immediately ask: "Are you looking for solutions or would you prefer me to listen to you?"
Most of the time it's just her need to be seen and heard and felt when her heart hurts.
Same with children. If you miss the empathy part, there's no relationship.
posted by andreinla at 3:25 PM on September 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
Woman feels overwhelming emotion and needs to feel heard and felt by the man.
Man feels that overwhelming emotion = emergency therefore a solution to the causing problem is needed immediately!
It takes time and experience before a man realizes that the solution is to witness and hold the space for a woman's feelings. Nothing to do, but be there. Veeery hard for a man when he's panicked ("she's crying, something's wrong, MUST FIX NOW!").
Immediate solutions may be to
1. Call someone else to vent
2. After all tension around this incident is gone, have a conversation with the man, and outline a game plan where he knows what to DO when you say "I want to vent." Make sure he understands that what he's doing is providing you with emotional support. Make sure he *repeats it back to you* and role play a few times, having fun with correcting his urge to solve the situation.
Make sure he understands that he is SOLVING THE ISSUE by listening to you.
Men are wired for quick solutions, this is just how it is. Speak to him in a language he can relate to and you may have success.
In my relationship, when I get the teary call, I immediately ask: "Are you looking for solutions or would you prefer me to listen to you?"
Most of the time it's just her need to be seen and heard and felt when her heart hurts.
Same with children. If you miss the empathy part, there's no relationship.
posted by andreinla at 3:25 PM on September 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
For example, you indicated that you were hurt that someone suggested you get a cat--that wasn't an attack.
No, OP was upset by the idea that she would take out her grievances on a cat, or vent to a cat--as opposed to dealing with a human, who would presumably be better equipped to deal with it. I think she was responding to the suggestion as if it might be cruel, yes... but to the cat.
I don't think, OP, that you come across as overly defensive in your reply. One of the hazards of posting anonymously is that you have to take a lot of stuff coming your way without an easy way of replying or rebutting incorrect assumptions.
However, maybe this is relevant to your problem. Both you and your boyfriend may need to take a step back from the details of the current argument, and focus more on your general needs with regard to communication within the relationship. How to do this has been covered at great length above. I'd just encourage you to look at the big picture, both in this thread and in your interactions with your boyfriend.
And good luck; it's not easy.
posted by torticat at 8:40 PM on September 24, 2010
No, OP was upset by the idea that she would take out her grievances on a cat, or vent to a cat--as opposed to dealing with a human, who would presumably be better equipped to deal with it. I think she was responding to the suggestion as if it might be cruel, yes... but to the cat.
I don't think, OP, that you come across as overly defensive in your reply. One of the hazards of posting anonymously is that you have to take a lot of stuff coming your way without an easy way of replying or rebutting incorrect assumptions.
However, maybe this is relevant to your problem. Both you and your boyfriend may need to take a step back from the details of the current argument, and focus more on your general needs with regard to communication within the relationship. How to do this has been covered at great length above. I'd just encourage you to look at the big picture, both in this thread and in your interactions with your boyfriend.
And good luck; it's not easy.
posted by torticat at 8:40 PM on September 24, 2010
Mod note: From the OP:
After some more reading and digesting, here are some more responses:posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:05 AM on September 25, 2010
Let me point out that your attitude in response to the answers here is really defensive and fighty. Is this typical for you when people give you advice? I mean, we didn't randomly email you, you asked for advice--and then you responded badly. And I know it can be frustrating to get advice that tells you things you already know or makes you feel like people think you're stupid or pathetic.
The only part where I think I got defensive was during the "get another therapist" bits. The rest of the time, I thought I was just providing more background information on things I've tried and not been successful at so that you could understand my situation better.
For example, you indicated that you were hurt that someone suggested you get a cat--that wasn't an attack.
No, OP was upset by the idea that she would take out her grievances on a cat, or vent to a cat--as opposed to dealing with a human, who would presumably be better equipped to deal with it. I think she was responding to the suggestion as if it might be cruel, yes... but to the cat.
Yes, the second person has the correct interpretation. I know y'all can have a blunt and gallows-ish sort of humor but suggesting that I vent on a cat seemed a bit too mean to the cat. I was distinctly flashing back to a paraphrase of a phrase I read once in one of the Anne of Green Gables books: "Kick the dog; you may feel better." But I understand people and times were different back then.
One of the hazards of posting anonymously is that you have to take a lot of stuff coming your way without an easy way of replying or rebutting incorrect assumptions.
This is something I didn't realize would be a problem when I started this post and is something that I think should be warned or advised about on the page where you start writing your anon post. Pony, please?
Back to your boyfriend--did he literally interrupt you? As in, you were in the middle of a sentence?
Yes, he did. But I also understand that sometimes my sentences don't have a definitive end point, so maybe he did think I was done speaking.
If you need something to beat up, might I suggest kickboxing?
If/when I get the time and money, that's going on my list of things I want to do.
GF explained to me that she just needs to vent and have her hand held and that she'll be fine when she's in those states. She did not want advice, but rather companionship. This was her telling me what she needed. So since we had that talk the couple times similar situations have come up I've simply listened, and it's been fine for both of us.
I'll get more clarification today, but my distinct impression is that my boyfriend wouldn't do what you do for very specific reasons which I can't get into.
Both you and your boyfriend may need to take a step back from the details of the current argument, and focus more on your general needs with regard to communication within the relationship. How to do this has been covered at great length above. I'd just encourage you to look at the big picture, both in this thread and in your interactions with your boyfriend.
Thank you for this. I wish I could favorite your comment, but I don't want to out myself.
SUMMARY: What I've learned from this thread is this: 1. I need to find a CBT therapist, especially since this is the kind of thing I've always imagined therapists do and not what my therapist has been doing. (He told me once what kind of therapist he was, but I forgot.) 2. Even if it may disappoint him, if I'm going to be teary and weeping, I can't go to my boyfriend for immediate help. He can come in later when I'm done crying and I'm ready to start working on a solution. 3. I need to start writing again. This part will be much easier once I get my laptop back.
In perhaps two hours, he'll be coming over. I know I'm going to try and apologize first. Beyond that, I don't know where things will lead.
Thanks again.
Yes, the second person has the correct interpretation. I know y'all can have a blunt and gallows-ish sort of humor but suggesting that I vent on a cat seemed a bit too mean to the cat. I was distinctly flashing back to a paraphrase of a phrase I read once in one of the Anne of Green Gables books: "Kick the dog; you may feel better." But I understand people and times were different back then.
OK, this is sort of besides the main point, but I'm pretty sure the idea of getting a cat was not so you could beat up on it or scream at it, but so it could be comforting to you when you are feeling bad. When I'm sad, I like to pet my cat. She purrs and it makes me feel better. As crappy as life can get, I still have this kitty cat who is simply happy to have her chin scratched by me. So... I have to think that's what the person who suggested it meant.
posted by wondermouse at 9:23 AM on September 25, 2010
OK, this is sort of besides the main point, but I'm pretty sure the idea of getting a cat was not so you could beat up on it or scream at it, but so it could be comforting to you when you are feeling bad. When I'm sad, I like to pet my cat. She purrs and it makes me feel better. As crappy as life can get, I still have this kitty cat who is simply happy to have her chin scratched by me. So... I have to think that's what the person who suggested it meant.
posted by wondermouse at 9:23 AM on September 25, 2010
After reading through this thread over a two-day period, I am still unclear about what the OP means when she says 'venting'.
My concern is that what she is really doing is dumping all of her crap on her boyfriend to make herself feel better in the moment. Even if she is then willing to go back later and listen to/take his advice, that doesn't make up for the initial dumping. She walks away feeling much better, but he walks away feeling much worse, and has to just sit with that feeling until OP is ready to resume a conversation. That isn't about him being supportive. It's about her doing emotional fly tipping.
The dumpers I've known in the past would approach every bad situation from the victim stance, either blatantly (oh, poor little helpless me! why is everyone so mean to me?) or indirectly (I would do x, but I can't do x because of this circumstance, if only I could, oh poor me). They weren't looking for help, they were looking to unload their bad feelings on someone who would listen.
Dumping isn't a healthy relationship interaction. Venting can be, I guess, but honestly, it seems disrespectful to vomit my super-immediate emotional baggage all over the person I love without even trying to fully understand it on my own first. But, that's how *I* deal with my stuff, not how everyone has to deal with it.
(My best friend and I have been able to call each other and share our worst days and events with each other because at the end, when we are done complaining and bemoaning our lot in life, we ALWAYS end the session by saying, "So, even though x makes me feel awful, I'm going to try y first, and then z if y doesn't work". We turn to each other for commiseration, but each of us individually come up with potential solutions to our own problems.)
I think that IF what is actually happening is dumping, then the boyfriend has the right to try and protect himself by insisting on boundaries, while still attempting to be supportive of his partner. I also wonder if he is focusing on being the fixer of OP's problems or focusing more on the fact that they have very similar problems and would have success if they were able to work on their individual problems together. Both things seem possible based on what OP said, and one strikes me as much more healthy and less egotistical than the other.
If OP is sure that she isn't dumping, then I have no suggestions. I've never known anyone throughout my life whose first reaction to upsetting things is to need to cry to others about it. Apparently I run in wildly different circles than most of the posters on this thread, as I was surprised to discover that so many people think this is normal, common behavior (I'm not saying it's abnormal, I'm saying that I've never encountered it before and I've been alive for a while and lived in a variety of places and thought I knew of most of the norms, and was startled that one so common hadn't crossed my radar until now).
posted by Brody's chum at 1:09 PM on September 25, 2010
My concern is that what she is really doing is dumping all of her crap on her boyfriend to make herself feel better in the moment. Even if she is then willing to go back later and listen to/take his advice, that doesn't make up for the initial dumping. She walks away feeling much better, but he walks away feeling much worse, and has to just sit with that feeling until OP is ready to resume a conversation. That isn't about him being supportive. It's about her doing emotional fly tipping.
The dumpers I've known in the past would approach every bad situation from the victim stance, either blatantly (oh, poor little helpless me! why is everyone so mean to me?) or indirectly (I would do x, but I can't do x because of this circumstance, if only I could, oh poor me). They weren't looking for help, they were looking to unload their bad feelings on someone who would listen.
Dumping isn't a healthy relationship interaction. Venting can be, I guess, but honestly, it seems disrespectful to vomit my super-immediate emotional baggage all over the person I love without even trying to fully understand it on my own first. But, that's how *I* deal with my stuff, not how everyone has to deal with it.
(My best friend and I have been able to call each other and share our worst days and events with each other because at the end, when we are done complaining and bemoaning our lot in life, we ALWAYS end the session by saying, "So, even though x makes me feel awful, I'm going to try y first, and then z if y doesn't work". We turn to each other for commiseration, but each of us individually come up with potential solutions to our own problems.)
I think that IF what is actually happening is dumping, then the boyfriend has the right to try and protect himself by insisting on boundaries, while still attempting to be supportive of his partner. I also wonder if he is focusing on being the fixer of OP's problems or focusing more on the fact that they have very similar problems and would have success if they were able to work on their individual problems together. Both things seem possible based on what OP said, and one strikes me as much more healthy and less egotistical than the other.
If OP is sure that she isn't dumping, then I have no suggestions. I've never known anyone throughout my life whose first reaction to upsetting things is to need to cry to others about it. Apparently I run in wildly different circles than most of the posters on this thread, as I was surprised to discover that so many people think this is normal, common behavior (I'm not saying it's abnormal, I'm saying that I've never encountered it before and I've been alive for a while and lived in a variety of places and thought I knew of most of the norms, and was startled that one so common hadn't crossed my radar until now).
posted by Brody's chum at 1:09 PM on September 25, 2010
Wow, this really hits home. I haven't read through the whole thread yet, so hope I'm not repeating what others have said. I am a crier (cryer?) and cry in response to a lot of things - frustration, anxiety, anger, sadness, elation, joy, whatever. I cry a lot.
Although my (very recent) ex knew about this issue early on in our relationship and assured me it wasn't a big deal, towards the end of our relationship I thought it was interfering with my own ability to function well, so I started therapy (which coincided pretty well with the breakup that was around the corner).
I don't really have any advice, except that the only way I've found to deal with it is to excuse myself to a place to be alone for a few minutes while I gather my thoughts and compose myself. Sometimes you can't do this before the tears start, but I think a lot of what makes my crying jags so awful is I feel so powerless or out of control once it starts. And then it turns into a negative feedback loop: "Oh my god, why I am crying? What's wrong with me?!?!" Excusing myself for a few minutes (or however long I need, really) sometimes helps me feel like I'm back in control of the situation.
Good luck. I know how difficult and frustrating this can be.
posted by mostly vowels at 2:54 PM on September 25, 2010
Although my (very recent) ex knew about this issue early on in our relationship and assured me it wasn't a big deal, towards the end of our relationship I thought it was interfering with my own ability to function well, so I started therapy (which coincided pretty well with the breakup that was around the corner).
I don't really have any advice, except that the only way I've found to deal with it is to excuse myself to a place to be alone for a few minutes while I gather my thoughts and compose myself. Sometimes you can't do this before the tears start, but I think a lot of what makes my crying jags so awful is I feel so powerless or out of control once it starts. And then it turns into a negative feedback loop: "Oh my god, why I am crying? What's wrong with me?!?!" Excusing myself for a few minutes (or however long I need, really) sometimes helps me feel like I'm back in control of the situation.
Good luck. I know how difficult and frustrating this can be.
posted by mostly vowels at 2:54 PM on September 25, 2010
OP, I'd just also like to say - not all partners start out with your perceived "perfect" reaction to your emotion, but most partners would like to work out how to soothe their upset loved one. I went out with someone who used to say that me crying about anything, made him angry. He didn't know why, said it was something from his childhood. I was miserable, because it meant that when I truly needed him most, I couldn't go to him. That's not a partnership.
Most people need an outlet when they want to work through their emotion BEFORE seeing advice and solution mode emerge. For some, this involves talking through the issue at hand, sometimes emotionally. This is ok, your loved ones just need to understand this about you, just as you would in return work to understand that when they're upset, they need chocolate/screaming into a pillow/blasting angry music/whining to a friend.
posted by shazzam! at 6:49 AM on September 27, 2010
Most people need an outlet when they want to work through their emotion BEFORE seeing advice and solution mode emerge. For some, this involves talking through the issue at hand, sometimes emotionally. This is ok, your loved ones just need to understand this about you, just as you would in return work to understand that when they're upset, they need chocolate/screaming into a pillow/blasting angry music/whining to a friend.
posted by shazzam! at 6:49 AM on September 27, 2010
Mod note: From the OP:
Long story short: He broke up with me.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:14 AM on October 16, 2010
TL;DR version: I talked to my therapist about what happened, and he
and I have been working semi-cognitively with regards to how I handle
stress so that it doesn't leak out and turn unconscious actions into
conscious ones. Still, one can't expect success overnight (can they?)
and so when he got upset with me recently because it didn't seem like
I cared enough about him to come to his birthday celebration when he
went out of his way to come to mine, and I tried to explain my thought
process in a rational way by email while trying not to break down in
tears at the office, it was the last straw for him.
He said much later after reflection and after he cooled down that he
didn't want to be in a relationship with me and my issues, let me know
what his analysis of my issues were, and ended the relationship.
I'm going to continue to not smoke, continue to see my therapist, and
attempt to not dwell on the fact that it feels like I'm broken and can
never be fixed.
This thread is closed to new comments.
No need for a compromise. Just ask him for what you want, which is venting. Be clear on what you want, when you need it, call him hup and ask him if he can provide a kind ear for venting. When he says yes, then start to cry and say how you feel. Then the first few times he will try to provide advice and fix things. Tell him that right now you need just the venting you are asking for and then ask again can you provide it?
He'll get the point, eventually.
As for his perspective, he cares about you. When you suffer, he suffers. And in his mind, when there is a problem, one takes steps to fix it. Its hard for him to get the whole sharing feelings part, when you could be acting immediately to deal with the problem. He doesn't understand that you don't want to fix it until you have worked through the emotions. The truth is, that once you've worked through the feelings, the course of action is usually obvious.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:12 PM on September 23, 2010 [1 favorite]