Should my girlfriend dump me for thinking about leaving?
March 18, 2005 3:43 PM Subscribe
I'm applying to grad schools right now, and have been accepted to two very good schools: (A) is in the boondocks, but has the best department in the nation for the kind of research I want to do. (B) is in the area, and is only "very good" for what I want to do. My girlfriend is furious (FURIOUS) with me for even considering (A). Am I being dumpworthy?
To clarify: If I went to (B), we would likely move in together. If I go to (A), she would or could not come as there are no opportunities for her. I feel like it is at least reasonable for me to ponder which path I should take; she doesn't. This bothers me, as it makes me feel like the portent of the decision isn't being valued. She feels like I'm being an emotionally unfaithful tool for even considering leaving her.
Anyone else been in a similar situation? Thoughts?
I suppose this is an unanswerable chatfilter question. But it is, at least, generalizable to the question of career and relationship. Please delete if it's inappropriate.
To clarify: If I went to (B), we would likely move in together. If I go to (A), she would or could not come as there are no opportunities for her. I feel like it is at least reasonable for me to ponder which path I should take; she doesn't. This bothers me, as it makes me feel like the portent of the decision isn't being valued. She feels like I'm being an emotionally unfaithful tool for even considering leaving her.
Anyone else been in a similar situation? Thoughts?
I suppose this is an unanswerable chatfilter question. But it is, at least, generalizable to the question of career and relationship. Please delete if it's inappropriate.
This post was deleted for the following reason: removed at poster's request
You can try to make the decision based on the academics/career alone. But your gf is feeling discounted, or at least, the relationship is. Is she the one?
posted by gramcracker at 3:52 PM on March 18, 2005
posted by gramcracker at 3:52 PM on March 18, 2005
Obviously, there are two components here: the sensitive inter-relational problem and the more crass "let's evaluate your career" half of it. So:
How old are you and how long have the two of you been together? Are you either's first relationship?
What program are you in? Do you intend to become a professor?
posted by kensanway at 3:54 PM on March 18, 2005
How old are you and how long have the two of you been together? Are you either's first relationship?
What program are you in? Do you intend to become a professor?
posted by kensanway at 3:54 PM on March 18, 2005
She can't be the one if either even consider being without the other no matter what the reason.
posted by oh posey at 3:55 PM on March 18, 2005
posted by oh posey at 3:55 PM on March 18, 2005
Dude, you should to do what is best for you. Especially in terms of school. Why wouldn't she want you to develop as much as your potential as possible? I don't think it's not right, nor healthy, for her you hold you back, keeping you from the best opportunities possible. My vote is for (A).
Also, if you specify what schools they are, maybe MeFites can be more specific about the pros and cons of each place.
posted by scazza at 3:56 PM on March 18, 2005
Also, if you specify what schools they are, maybe MeFites can be more specific about the pros and cons of each place.
posted by scazza at 3:56 PM on March 18, 2005
Your girlfriend feels you don't deserve the best?
Relationships come and go, but you'll have your education forever. That's not to say that you should go for the less accessible school, but your girlfriend is WAY out of line. WAY.
posted by kindall at 3:56 PM on March 18, 2005
Relationships come and go, but you'll have your education forever. That's not to say that you should go for the less accessible school, but your girlfriend is WAY out of line. WAY.
posted by kindall at 3:56 PM on March 18, 2005
Oh jeez, grammatical hell. My post should read: Why wouldn't she want you to develop as much of your potential as possible? I don't think it's right, nor healthy, for her you hold you back, keeping you from the best opportunities possible.
And to add, if you are meant to be together forever then you would survive a little distance. Can she not stand to be alone?
posted by scazza at 3:59 PM on March 18, 2005
And to add, if you are meant to be together forever then you would survive a little distance. Can she not stand to be alone?
posted by scazza at 3:59 PM on March 18, 2005
I can't help much here because I've never understood monogamy. Your girlfriend is mad at you because you're thinking about making a decision? I'm going to grind an ideological axe here but maybe I do understand enough about monogamy to know that a lot of the games people play around it are about pretending to eliminate choice.
posted by rdr at 4:01 PM on March 18, 2005
posted by rdr at 4:01 PM on March 18, 2005
Is girlfriend the love of your life? Are you guys going to be together forever (i.e., get married)?
If not, go for school A, because imagine how you'll feel after you guys break up and you're stuck with the albatross of having gone to a second rate school.
posted by jasper411 at 4:03 PM on March 18, 2005
If not, go for school A, because imagine how you'll feel after you guys break up and you're stuck with the albatross of having gone to a second rate school.
posted by jasper411 at 4:03 PM on March 18, 2005
My girlfriend and I applied to grad schools at the same time, and I got into and considered a top school that she didn't apply to. I also know many people who have been in similar situations. The fact is that many people have some version of this problem, whether involving grad school, different careers, etc.
I do not think it is reasonable of your girlfriend to be mad at you for considering (A). It sounds like she is conceiving of the choice as your career vs. her, which is not a productive way to think about it, and in fact if she is thinking about it that way, it's probably a bad sign for your long-term potential. Later this will only magnify, as you both want to settle down to more permanent jobs. Both of your careers should matter - if you go to (B) it's possible that your career will suffer relative to the choice of (A), and if you go to (A) her career might suffer.
I know many people whose spouses have sacrificed some time to go live where the person is going to grad school (after all, it's only around 5 years, if you stay on schedule). However, this always seems to require some give and take, or there may be real lasting bitterness - a friend of mine who is going to finish next year will (if he has enough job options) go somewhere next where his wife can go to a good med school. It sounds, however, like your girlfriend isn't willing to even consider this kind of compromise, which again, is a bad sign.
Also, (slightly off topic) there can be disadvantages to going to the very absolute best school in any field. They are typically very competitive, have professors who are more concerned about their own research than their students, etc. In this sense I partly disagree with a previous poster - you'll have your education forever, but by in large, a phd is what you make of it no matter where you go (well, as long as you go somewhere that's very good or better). You might be better served by choosing for an advisor you think you can work well with, rather than the reputation of the school.
posted by advil at 4:05 PM on March 18, 2005
I do not think it is reasonable of your girlfriend to be mad at you for considering (A). It sounds like she is conceiving of the choice as your career vs. her, which is not a productive way to think about it, and in fact if she is thinking about it that way, it's probably a bad sign for your long-term potential. Later this will only magnify, as you both want to settle down to more permanent jobs. Both of your careers should matter - if you go to (B) it's possible that your career will suffer relative to the choice of (A), and if you go to (A) her career might suffer.
I know many people whose spouses have sacrificed some time to go live where the person is going to grad school (after all, it's only around 5 years, if you stay on schedule). However, this always seems to require some give and take, or there may be real lasting bitterness - a friend of mine who is going to finish next year will (if he has enough job options) go somewhere next where his wife can go to a good med school. It sounds, however, like your girlfriend isn't willing to even consider this kind of compromise, which again, is a bad sign.
Also, (slightly off topic) there can be disadvantages to going to the very absolute best school in any field. They are typically very competitive, have professors who are more concerned about their own research than their students, etc. In this sense I partly disagree with a previous poster - you'll have your education forever, but by in large, a phd is what you make of it no matter where you go (well, as long as you go somewhere that's very good or better). You might be better served by choosing for an advisor you think you can work well with, rather than the reputation of the school.
posted by advil at 4:05 PM on March 18, 2005
Power struggle. If it were me, I'd pick A and find a low maintenance woman--one who'd cry if you left, but not get furious. That's the one to marry. They're getting harder to find. Keep on searchin' for a heart of gold.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 4:08 PM on March 18, 2005
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 4:08 PM on March 18, 2005
I forgot to say - while I don't think it is reasonable for her to be mad at you for considering (A), it might be reasonable of your girlfriend to be mad at you for choosing (A) if you do, especially if you aren't willing to make some equivalent sacrifice for her in the future.
posted by advil at 4:08 PM on March 18, 2005
posted by advil at 4:08 PM on March 18, 2005
Speaking as a wife who once packed up and moved 600 miles (from a major metropolitan area to a small town 100 miles from anything that could be called a small city) just so Mr R could try his hand at running a business, I think she's being more than a bit demanding.
I don't think you're being dumpworthy. How long have you been dating? How long have you been applying to grad schools? Did you discuss the options with her before you applied? After? Is she willing to make any compromises, or just saying "if you choose A, I'm outta here"?
Both career and relationships are important. She's asking you to put the relationship before your career. Is it that important to you?
The problem (as I see it) is what happens if you choose B because that's where she wants to go and then a year from now you break up? And will you feel "trapped" at the second choice because your gf "made" you choose it?
Your choices seem to be:
put career first, go to A; hope gf waits.
put relationship first, go to B; hope gf stays.
I'd go with A. If she's not willing to wait or go with, then maybe she's just not right for you.
posted by jlkr at 4:13 PM on March 18, 2005
I don't think you're being dumpworthy. How long have you been dating? How long have you been applying to grad schools? Did you discuss the options with her before you applied? After? Is she willing to make any compromises, or just saying "if you choose A, I'm outta here"?
Both career and relationships are important. She's asking you to put the relationship before your career. Is it that important to you?
The problem (as I see it) is what happens if you choose B because that's where she wants to go and then a year from now you break up? And will you feel "trapped" at the second choice because your gf "made" you choose it?
Your choices seem to be:
put career first, go to A; hope gf waits.
put relationship first, go to B; hope gf stays.
I'd go with A. If she's not willing to wait or go with, then maybe she's just not right for you.
posted by jlkr at 4:13 PM on March 18, 2005
Something to consider: if you go into academia, it is highly likely that the relocation issue will come up again in five years, or whenever you get your degree. If it is a problem now, when you're dating, how serious is it going to be when you're married and have kids? I'm not trying convince you one way or the other, but it's something you should think about. btw, ultimatums are generally not a good omen for the future of any relationship.
One other stray thought -- your potential advisor is much more important than the program per se. This isn't something you can decide based on the reputation of the school.
posted by casu marzu at 4:18 PM on March 18, 2005
One other stray thought -- your potential advisor is much more important than the program per se. This isn't something you can decide based on the reputation of the school.
posted by casu marzu at 4:18 PM on March 18, 2005
Insofar as you've posted this nonymously, and your name is in your contact info, you may as well ask us about the particular programs. In the absence of that info...
When people ask me about math grad schools, between the Bestest and the merely Very Good, I point out that when I look at people's nametags at conferences, or alma maters on CVs, I see the Bestest way, way, way more than the Very Good.
Grad school: it's not just a job -- it's an indenture. (Said as one who liked grad school so much, I went to three of them!) There's so much you're giving up in going to grad school in the first place (e.g. several years' income and job advancement) that I find settling for less really inconceivable.
If your gf can't even appreciate that you might consider these sorts of issues, she really Doesn't Get It. If she refuses to try to Get It, then she's really unreasonable.
I'm glad that nobody has suggested "go to B first, and if it doesn't work, transfer to A!" Having transferred myself, let me say that it is absolutely an option to not count on having.
To spell out an issue brought up by others: long-term, you will be in a better position to achieve a joint living solution if you're more marketable, and that will come from going to A. Say you go to B, and then gf wants to move to city X for some career reason, but nobody there wants to hire you. Great.
There's a ton more to say about schools vs. advisors etc., but they're highly dependent on field.
posted by Aknaton at 4:20 PM on March 18, 2005
When people ask me about math grad schools, between the Bestest and the merely Very Good, I point out that when I look at people's nametags at conferences, or alma maters on CVs, I see the Bestest way, way, way more than the Very Good.
Grad school: it's not just a job -- it's an indenture. (Said as one who liked grad school so much, I went to three of them!) There's so much you're giving up in going to grad school in the first place (e.g. several years' income and job advancement) that I find settling for less really inconceivable.
If your gf can't even appreciate that you might consider these sorts of issues, she really Doesn't Get It. If she refuses to try to Get It, then she's really unreasonable.
I'm glad that nobody has suggested "go to B first, and if it doesn't work, transfer to A!" Having transferred myself, let me say that it is absolutely an option to not count on having.
To spell out an issue brought up by others: long-term, you will be in a better position to achieve a joint living solution if you're more marketable, and that will come from going to A. Say you go to B, and then gf wants to move to city X for some career reason, but nobody there wants to hire you. Great.
There's a ton more to say about schools vs. advisors etc., but they're highly dependent on field.
posted by Aknaton at 4:20 PM on March 18, 2005
how long ago did you tell her this? If it was ten minutes ago, she may need some time to get used to the thought of (A). She's being selfish, but it seems like a not totally uncommon immediate reaction - to think of oneself first. Her life would change dramatically too if she were to go along with (A). Maybe she'll come around and see both of your perspectives. Is it in her personality to do that?
posted by hellbient at 4:22 PM on March 18, 2005
posted by hellbient at 4:22 PM on March 18, 2005
How long is your program? 2 years? 4? Longer? Are you planning on visiting school A to talk with professors and get a feel for the research? If so, would your GF be willing to come along to at least see if there's anything she could do there? Are either of the schools offereing you money?
We need More Inside!
posted by inviolable at 4:29 PM on March 18, 2005
We need More Inside!
posted by inviolable at 4:29 PM on March 18, 2005
Metaculpa, this isn't a question we can answer, obviously, but maybe a few thoughts from our different experiences:
I agree that your girlfriend shouldn't be mad at you for considering it, and that you have a right to let her know this. It's your life; not balancing your options carefully would be dumb. That's how people end up unhappy.
But don't be afraid to sacrifice, either. Love means compromise; it means learning to look for ways to make your girlfriend happy without making you resent her. Accepting the possibility of sacrifice is really essential to loving someone well.
Our culture isn't big on sacrificing career for family. And that's probably a good thing on the whole, because women have done way too much sacrificing for way too long. But it's an honorable choice. An education is forever, yes, but so is love sometimes if you're willing to work at it, and it'll carry you through much tougher struggles and to much greater heights.
But look at both choices, ask yourself hard questions about both choices: whether your life would really be different at School A, whether being long-distance for a while would really be so hard. At some point, you'll know what you have to do.
posted by Polonius at 4:29 PM on March 18, 2005
I agree that your girlfriend shouldn't be mad at you for considering it, and that you have a right to let her know this. It's your life; not balancing your options carefully would be dumb. That's how people end up unhappy.
But don't be afraid to sacrifice, either. Love means compromise; it means learning to look for ways to make your girlfriend happy without making you resent her. Accepting the possibility of sacrifice is really essential to loving someone well.
Our culture isn't big on sacrificing career for family. And that's probably a good thing on the whole, because women have done way too much sacrificing for way too long. But it's an honorable choice. An education is forever, yes, but so is love sometimes if you're willing to work at it, and it'll carry you through much tougher struggles and to much greater heights.
But look at both choices, ask yourself hard questions about both choices: whether your life would really be different at School A, whether being long-distance for a while would really be so hard. At some point, you'll know what you have to do.
posted by Polonius at 4:29 PM on March 18, 2005
She has a right to be upset if she fears she's going to lose you. And fear manifesting itself as anger is not particularly unusual. It might be worth it in the long run to at least acknowledge her fears and explain that this is a tough decision and you a bent out of shape having to make it too (assuming that's true). In some ways you are right and it would be much better if we could always overlook our fears in the interest of what is best for our partners, but I don't think it makes her evil for failing in that regard. Since you are the one with the power here--you are making the choice--it could be worth it to be the better person instead of turning it into an argument.
As far as the actual decision goes, I think there are some people who put work at the center of their lives and others who choose to put relationships first. Neither is universally better. It seems now is the time for you to decide which you are; it appears your girlfriend hopes you are one of the latter.
posted by dame at 4:31 PM on March 18, 2005
As far as the actual decision goes, I think there are some people who put work at the center of their lives and others who choose to put relationships first. Neither is universally better. It seems now is the time for you to decide which you are; it appears your girlfriend hopes you are one of the latter.
posted by dame at 4:31 PM on March 18, 2005
I'd say your girlfriend is being unreasonable. Long distance relationships can be successful - especially with an inevitable reunion (i.e. graduation) to look forward to. But both people need to actually want to make it work.
Just how far away would you two be, anyhow, if you chose "A"? Several grad students I know are currently living apart from their spouses/partners. And we're talking FAR. A friend is doing her PhD in Halifax while her husband is working in Vancouver. And another couple I know are completing their respective PhDs in Calgary and Boston.
And I am just coming to the end of a fairly short term (7 months) of living in a different city than my boyfriend (me in Banff, him in Vancouver). Luckily we both got into excellent PhD programs for our respective disciplines, and they happen to be in the same city. Otherwise, I guess we'd be spending a lot on plane tickets.
Keep in mind that you won't always be taking courses and you may be able to spend some terms during your degree visiting other institutions. So while you may be enrolled at "A" and taking full advantage of their excellent reputation, have a supervisor there, etc., what's to stop you from finding a friendly research group at "B" to visit for a semester or two?
posted by sanitycheck at 4:33 PM on March 18, 2005
Just how far away would you two be, anyhow, if you chose "A"? Several grad students I know are currently living apart from their spouses/partners. And we're talking FAR. A friend is doing her PhD in Halifax while her husband is working in Vancouver. And another couple I know are completing their respective PhDs in Calgary and Boston.
And I am just coming to the end of a fairly short term (7 months) of living in a different city than my boyfriend (me in Banff, him in Vancouver). Luckily we both got into excellent PhD programs for our respective disciplines, and they happen to be in the same city. Otherwise, I guess we'd be spending a lot on plane tickets.
Keep in mind that you won't always be taking courses and you may be able to spend some terms during your degree visiting other institutions. So while you may be enrolled at "A" and taking full advantage of their excellent reputation, have a supervisor there, etc., what's to stop you from finding a friendly research group at "B" to visit for a semester or two?
posted by sanitycheck at 4:33 PM on March 18, 2005
She can't be the one if either even consider being without the other no matter what the reason.
Untrue.
My wife and I voluntarily spent a couple years apart. For the first year, she worked in a nearby city and visited on the weekends while I finished my degree; the second year, she attended grad school and I worked in a different province. At the time, we'd been together perhaps four years.
Something like 18 years later, we're still together.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:36 PM on March 18, 2005
Untrue.
My wife and I voluntarily spent a couple years apart. For the first year, she worked in a nearby city and visited on the weekends while I finished my degree; the second year, she attended grad school and I worked in a different province. At the time, we'd been together perhaps four years.
Something like 18 years later, we're still together.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:36 PM on March 18, 2005
It will indeed help to know what sort of program this is.
What's the boondocks? It seems a bit hard to believe that anywhere with a country's-best program is going to be really in the boonies, unless anywhere smaller than the bay area is the boonies to you. Even places like Lawrence or Iowa City are, from all reports, reasonable enough places to live with more than one stop light, to say nothing of places like Madison, Ann Arbor, or Minneapolis.
My first reaction is that you should go to the better program and let the relationship chips fall where they may.
As casu marzu says, you're going to be moving somewhere in 5 years anyway -- I don't think it's fair to say that it's "very likely" that you'll move; the odds of getting a tenure-track line in your area are essentially nil. In which case the shit is going to hit the fan then -- so, really, it might as well hit now and get it over with.
Unless you have, neither of you have made any promises of lifelong fidelity and companionship to each other. Putting family or marriage first is one thing, but a girlfriend you haven't even moved in with is neither.
On the other hand, the difference between "best" and "very good" might not be very big in your field. In which case, you should be thinking about where you want to live for the 5 or so years you're working on your degree.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:44 PM on March 18, 2005
What's the boondocks? It seems a bit hard to believe that anywhere with a country's-best program is going to be really in the boonies, unless anywhere smaller than the bay area is the boonies to you. Even places like Lawrence or Iowa City are, from all reports, reasonable enough places to live with more than one stop light, to say nothing of places like Madison, Ann Arbor, or Minneapolis.
My first reaction is that you should go to the better program and let the relationship chips fall where they may.
As casu marzu says, you're going to be moving somewhere in 5 years anyway -- I don't think it's fair to say that it's "very likely" that you'll move; the odds of getting a tenure-track line in your area are essentially nil. In which case the shit is going to hit the fan then -- so, really, it might as well hit now and get it over with.
Unless you have, neither of you have made any promises of lifelong fidelity and companionship to each other. Putting family or marriage first is one thing, but a girlfriend you haven't even moved in with is neither.
On the other hand, the difference between "best" and "very good" might not be very big in your field. In which case, you should be thinking about where you want to live for the 5 or so years you're working on your degree.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:44 PM on March 18, 2005
If you are going into the humanities or another field where teaching jobs are hard to come by, you absolutely must go to school A. We just finished interviewing for five positions at my state college in the boondocks, and we got some amazing applicants from top grad programs who fairly smelled of desperation and fear. We hardly looked at anyone from B level schools, we didn't have to. And don't worry about your grad program being in the boondocks, you are going to be living in the library the next few years anyway.
And as others have said, the moving thing is going to come up again in 5 years when you finish grad school. Tell your girlfriend that going to school A will give you a lot more choices as to where you spend the rest of your lives.
My email is in the profile, contact me if you have any other questions.
posted by LarryC at 5:05 PM on March 18, 2005
And as others have said, the moving thing is going to come up again in 5 years when you finish grad school. Tell your girlfriend that going to school A will give you a lot more choices as to where you spend the rest of your lives.
My email is in the profile, contact me if you have any other questions.
posted by LarryC at 5:05 PM on March 18, 2005
Just wanted to add my experience to FFF's: I went to grad school in Delaware about 5 months after my future husband and I started dating. There was no way he was going to move with me this soon in the relationship - especially to Delaware - so we dated long distance for the next two years. It actually worked better than I thought it would (I didn't think it would work at all, actually), because A) I had my summers and most of January off and could spend it in Colorado with him and B) I was way to busy to pursue any other romantic possibilities or even miss their absence. So, without knowing the particulars of your situation, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.
posted by bibliowench at 5:16 PM on March 18, 2005
posted by bibliowench at 5:16 PM on March 18, 2005
I understand that your girlfriend may be feeling discounted but, I, for one, want someone to be with me because they have thoughtfully examined ALL of their options and chosen me - NOT because they failed to consider their choices.
posted by aaronh at 5:26 PM on March 18, 2005
posted by aaronh at 5:26 PM on March 18, 2005
Kinda sounds like she's more interested in being loved than in your happiness. I have always thought that if you really love someone, you are always interested in their happiness, so to ask you to not even consider option B... well, to me, that's selfish and much more about her and what you do for her than about your happiness. I think both people's happiness are important.
It feels like a manipulation to make you feel guilty.
Incidentally, my best friend at grad school was married, and her husband was in India the entire time she was there. When she considered leaving after just a master's degree to be with him, he was the one who told her that the most important thing was that she was getting the degree she needed to live a happy life. No, he's not having an affair. He's really that interested in her happiness. That, to me, is seriously cool.
posted by abbyladybug at 5:33 PM on March 18, 2005
It feels like a manipulation to make you feel guilty.
Incidentally, my best friend at grad school was married, and her husband was in India the entire time she was there. When she considered leaving after just a master's degree to be with him, he was the one who told her that the most important thing was that she was getting the degree she needed to live a happy life. No, he's not having an affair. He's really that interested in her happiness. That, to me, is seriously cool.
posted by abbyladybug at 5:33 PM on March 18, 2005
Response by poster: Whoa. Y'all are quite something. Thanks, in general, to all of you. (I guess I -should- get my own damn blog.)
There are a few reasons I think I may be being a pooper, and a few I think she may be. So let me clarify this a bit, if I can. School (A) is the best program in the nation in a good but un-famous shool (invertebrate neuro-behavior, and University of Arzonia); school (B) is Stanphard, which has a very good neuroscience program (in general), but not much in behavioral neuroscience. So, perhaps a fairer description is: Arzonia has one or two people that I've wanted to work with for my entire career, and who would give me the best training in specifically what I want to do. Stanphard is, well, Stanphard, but doesn't have a lot of strength in my uber-precise definition of field. So - in terms of reputation - it's really the reputation of the department and people at Arzonia vs. the reputation of the University at Stanphard.
And I think that complicates things a little; it certainly makes it less of a career decision (S's name is, I think, at least equivalent to the names of the folks I'm looking at at A) and more of a following-the-dream decision. And that's not even clear; a few people at Stanphard have offered me lovely projects and, and I'm sure I'd do well with them even if the projects aren't precisely what I want to do with the rest of my life. After all, I do have the rest of my life to follow up, right?
So I guess that makes S and A a bit more of a tossup; it may be that I'm even leaning towards Stanphard. What bothers me still, though, is the idea that even considering A is a culpable offense; it is, after all, the school I've been pining for, and I'll have at least a sense of longing if I don't go there for my PhD.
I think what I should do is this: go to S, because I think I'd have a great time there. And try to figure out what it means that the girl didn't like even the idea of A, and didn't understand that I could consider leaving (the area) as the best thing for me. And that's a toughie. Conceivably, she'll make that decision for my by dumping my po' ass. We shall see, I guess.
On the relationship side, I think my ideal is closer to abbyladybug than to my girl's. Mine is that proximity and all its perks can be sacrificed for the good of the person; hers, I think, has proximity and daily involvement as a major part of loyalty. I do see where she's coming from, but I guess we all dream of different brands of love.
And thanks again, y'all..
(Sorry about the googlefuscation above. It seems wise, in the long run, although I know my name isn't googlable.
And also, I feel like a whiner talking about how S isn't quite good enough; so I'll stop.)
posted by metaculpa at 5:47 PM on March 18, 2005
There are a few reasons I think I may be being a pooper, and a few I think she may be. So let me clarify this a bit, if I can. School (A) is the best program in the nation in a good but un-famous shool (invertebrate neuro-behavior, and University of Arzonia); school (B) is Stanphard, which has a very good neuroscience program (in general), but not much in behavioral neuroscience. So, perhaps a fairer description is: Arzonia has one or two people that I've wanted to work with for my entire career, and who would give me the best training in specifically what I want to do. Stanphard is, well, Stanphard, but doesn't have a lot of strength in my uber-precise definition of field. So - in terms of reputation - it's really the reputation of the department and people at Arzonia vs. the reputation of the University at Stanphard.
And I think that complicates things a little; it certainly makes it less of a career decision (S's name is, I think, at least equivalent to the names of the folks I'm looking at at A) and more of a following-the-dream decision. And that's not even clear; a few people at Stanphard have offered me lovely projects and, and I'm sure I'd do well with them even if the projects aren't precisely what I want to do with the rest of my life. After all, I do have the rest of my life to follow up, right?
So I guess that makes S and A a bit more of a tossup; it may be that I'm even leaning towards Stanphard. What bothers me still, though, is the idea that even considering A is a culpable offense; it is, after all, the school I've been pining for, and I'll have at least a sense of longing if I don't go there for my PhD.
I think what I should do is this: go to S, because I think I'd have a great time there. And try to figure out what it means that the girl didn't like even the idea of A, and didn't understand that I could consider leaving (the area) as the best thing for me. And that's a toughie. Conceivably, she'll make that decision for my by dumping my po' ass. We shall see, I guess.
On the relationship side, I think my ideal is closer to abbyladybug than to my girl's. Mine is that proximity and all its perks can be sacrificed for the good of the person; hers, I think, has proximity and daily involvement as a major part of loyalty. I do see where she's coming from, but I guess we all dream of different brands of love.
And thanks again, y'all..
(Sorry about the googlefuscation above. It seems wise, in the long run, although I know my name isn't googlable.
And also, I feel like a whiner talking about how S isn't quite good enough; so I'll stop.)
posted by metaculpa at 5:47 PM on March 18, 2005
Response by poster: (Oh - and she's an academic too, and there's no-one in her field at A; so that she couldn't come and continue HER career is fairly well established.)
And let me say that I feel decidedly odd about having asked this in pseudo-public.
posted by metaculpa at 5:50 PM on March 18, 2005
And let me say that I feel decidedly odd about having asked this in pseudo-public.
posted by metaculpa at 5:50 PM on March 18, 2005
but doesn't have a lot of strength in my uber-precise definition of field.
I know things are different in departments other than math, but let me say, I'm so glad I didn't end up working in the field I thought I was interested in at the time I arrived at (my first or even second) grad school. I'll admit that it's possible that you're right that at this young age you've determined well what subsubsubfield you should be in, but in my experience, it's not very likely. So on general grounds I'd push you toward Fordistan rather than the arid zone. But IANAINBehaviorist.
posted by Aknaton at 5:59 PM on March 18, 2005
I know things are different in departments other than math, but let me say, I'm so glad I didn't end up working in the field I thought I was interested in at the time I arrived at (my first or even second) grad school. I'll admit that it's possible that you're right that at this young age you've determined well what subsubsubfield you should be in, but in my experience, it's not very likely. So on general grounds I'd push you toward Fordistan rather than the arid zone. But IANAINBehaviorist.
posted by Aknaton at 5:59 PM on March 18, 2005
It is my understanding the reputation of your grad school does affect where you teach in the future (that you are employed by relatively the same tier and below), so I'd say that Stanford allows you the most opportunities in the future. However on the other hand, that who you specifically study with determines the quality of your education.
Yet, going to Stanford can you do some of your dissertation research with the people at Arizona? I think Stanford is the most practical choice if it does secure your future, and if you can probably work with these people at Arizona in the future. (And ruling out the girlfriend situation completely. This isn't her decision, I agree with everyone else. I also would love to live in Arizona.)
posted by scazza at 6:00 PM on March 18, 2005
Yet, going to Stanford can you do some of your dissertation research with the people at Arizona? I think Stanford is the most practical choice if it does secure your future, and if you can probably work with these people at Arizona in the future. (And ruling out the girlfriend situation completely. This isn't her decision, I agree with everyone else. I also would love to live in Arizona.)
posted by scazza at 6:00 PM on March 18, 2005
I picked up and followed my girlfriend from Seattle (actually, we were living in a tiny little place on Bainbridge Island at the time) to Long Island, New York because she got into a grad program that was supposed to be best of breed for what she wanted to do.
I had a pretty good job, was earning good bank, enjoying the Pacific Northwest. You can believe we had a pretty thorough discussion about it, but it was a really good opportunity for her.
Anyway, I ended up getting another really cool job in New York, we lived out there for 4 years, and that girlfriend is now my wife. Yay! And, we eventually moved back to Seattle. Yay!
I guess it all depends on how real this opportunity is, and what you're asking your girlfriend to give up.
Then, of course, you a) are committed to this opportunity, and b) owe her big time!
posted by jimfl at 6:02 PM on March 18, 2005
I had a pretty good job, was earning good bank, enjoying the Pacific Northwest. You can believe we had a pretty thorough discussion about it, but it was a really good opportunity for her.
Anyway, I ended up getting another really cool job in New York, we lived out there for 4 years, and that girlfriend is now my wife. Yay! And, we eventually moved back to Seattle. Yay!
I guess it all depends on how real this opportunity is, and what you're asking your girlfriend to give up.
Then, of course, you a) are committed to this opportunity, and b) owe her big time!
posted by jimfl at 6:02 PM on March 18, 2005
Going to grad school isn't a whimsical move. Regardless of which school you pick, presumably this is about the long-term picture, right? Things like professional advancement, intellectual enrichment, personal growth, eventual financial betterment... Things which, in a committed long-term relationship, both of you will ultimately benefit from. However, the long-term benefits (individually and collectively) WILL require some major shorter-term sacrifices in order to get there.
If I went to (B), we would likely move in together. If I go to (A), she would or could not come as there are no opportunities for her. I feel like it is at least reasonable for me to ponder which path I should take; she doesn't.
This, to me, is the crux of it: if this is a fair depiction of the situation, then she's flatly unwilling to make a short-term sacrifice (either for the sake of the person she loves, or the relationship she wants to deepen), yet is flatly demanding a long-term sacrifice from you. Her fear of losing you is real, and understandable. But I can't imagine that you can have a happy long-term relationship if these are truly to be the ground rules.
In a mature relationship, people give up stuff. We do it because we know it's what they need, because even putting up with the shitty parts can be a joy when you know it's bringing something important and special into your lover's life, because we have faith that making the other person's life better will make our shared life infinitely better too.
If she's not willing to contemplate any scenario--nor allow you to even weigh any option (!)--in which she doesn't flat-out get her way, it's hard to imagine that she has the requisite maturity to move this relationship forward healthily, regardless of where you two happen to live.
I think you need firmly separate the two issues before you can know what to do. One is that looming school choice, obviously, but first there's the matter of what this relationship is and whether it realistically deserves to be a factor in the school decision.
If you're stuck making decisions on a short timetable, ask both schools about the potential for deferred admission. In a semester's or year's time, all of this stuff is going be a lot clearer. Better to pick the right school after clear-headed consideration, than to let personal complications push you into grabbing at some decision you later regret. As Aknaton pointed out, transfer is NOT an option. Grad schools are very big on commitment. Once you start at either school, you'll lose a lot of credbility points with the other if you try to jump ship. Forget it.
Final thought: I'm a big fan of people being accountable for their actions. But taking the right actions requires understanding and evaluating alternatives. If you make a decision unilaterally without including her in the process, then yeah you're a tool. But thought != infidelity. Anyone condemning you for mere thoughts has some scary control freak issues.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 6:13 PM on March 18, 2005
If I went to (B), we would likely move in together. If I go to (A), she would or could not come as there are no opportunities for her. I feel like it is at least reasonable for me to ponder which path I should take; she doesn't.
This, to me, is the crux of it: if this is a fair depiction of the situation, then she's flatly unwilling to make a short-term sacrifice (either for the sake of the person she loves, or the relationship she wants to deepen), yet is flatly demanding a long-term sacrifice from you. Her fear of losing you is real, and understandable. But I can't imagine that you can have a happy long-term relationship if these are truly to be the ground rules.
In a mature relationship, people give up stuff. We do it because we know it's what they need, because even putting up with the shitty parts can be a joy when you know it's bringing something important and special into your lover's life, because we have faith that making the other person's life better will make our shared life infinitely better too.
If she's not willing to contemplate any scenario--nor allow you to even weigh any option (!)--in which she doesn't flat-out get her way, it's hard to imagine that she has the requisite maturity to move this relationship forward healthily, regardless of where you two happen to live.
I think you need firmly separate the two issues before you can know what to do. One is that looming school choice, obviously, but first there's the matter of what this relationship is and whether it realistically deserves to be a factor in the school decision.
If you're stuck making decisions on a short timetable, ask both schools about the potential for deferred admission. In a semester's or year's time, all of this stuff is going be a lot clearer. Better to pick the right school after clear-headed consideration, than to let personal complications push you into grabbing at some decision you later regret. As Aknaton pointed out, transfer is NOT an option. Grad schools are very big on commitment. Once you start at either school, you'll lose a lot of credbility points with the other if you try to jump ship. Forget it.
Final thought: I'm a big fan of people being accountable for their actions. But taking the right actions requires understanding and evaluating alternatives. If you make a decision unilaterally without including her in the process, then yeah you're a tool. But thought != infidelity. Anyone condemning you for mere thoughts has some scary control freak issues.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 6:13 PM on March 18, 2005
I've been in a similar situation, slightly. I already lived in the boonies and was planning a nice lazy life together with my techie long-distance boyfriend who was going to move in with me but then decided he wanted to go to law school. This was a bit of a shocker for me. We'd been together maybe eight months and were serious but not get-married serious. I went through a minor freakout just because it seemed like he'd basically decided without me. Even though the decision was his to make, I was suprised at not being consulted before he decided. There was a long acceptance period for me, where I felt like he was being a bit of a cad just thinking about leaving. However, the more we talked the more it became clear that what I wanted was also important, but that life was long and if we were planning a long life together we might have to take turns getting exactly what we wanted. It took him a while to sort of say all that, it's been much better ever since.
We moved together to even more in the boonies [you think AZ is the boonies? he goes to law school in the only law school in the country in a town without a stop light]. I, amazingly, found a job, but it was funded by grants and wraps up very soon and I may have a hard time finding another one. I had a long commute just so we could live together and I think it was the right decision. There's definitely a sense of "okay, we're here because you are following *your* bliss so let's figure out how to find me mine"
On the other hand, he's always been acocmodating like that. We have to live near school, he chips in extra for the rent. I travel a lot for work and to earn pick up money, he's at the airport and is great at staying in touch when I'm gone. I may leave for three months next year to work someplace else, he's fine with that, and so am I.
My reaction to your predicament is basically to see what compromises you can make, assuming you feel like your girlfriend is worth it, and would do the same for you. Communicate your feelings as much as you logically pick through options. I think dame's right, some people prioritize job/school above relationships and some people are the opposite. I can see why your girlfriend is upset, but I don't in any way think you're being a tool for thinking about moving to Arizona.
posted by jessamyn at 6:22 PM on March 18, 2005
We moved together to even more in the boonies [you think AZ is the boonies? he goes to law school in the only law school in the country in a town without a stop light]. I, amazingly, found a job, but it was funded by grants and wraps up very soon and I may have a hard time finding another one. I had a long commute just so we could live together and I think it was the right decision. There's definitely a sense of "okay, we're here because you are following *your* bliss so let's figure out how to find me mine"
On the other hand, he's always been acocmodating like that. We have to live near school, he chips in extra for the rent. I travel a lot for work and to earn pick up money, he's at the airport and is great at staying in touch when I'm gone. I may leave for three months next year to work someplace else, he's fine with that, and so am I.
My reaction to your predicament is basically to see what compromises you can make, assuming you feel like your girlfriend is worth it, and would do the same for you. Communicate your feelings as much as you logically pick through options. I think dame's right, some people prioritize job/school above relationships and some people are the opposite. I can see why your girlfriend is upset, but I don't in any way think you're being a tool for thinking about moving to Arizona.
posted by jessamyn at 6:22 PM on March 18, 2005
I've got to say, metaculpa, your overall decision is pretty enviable. It's nice to have two good programs to choose from. Regarding the career aspect of the decision: I don't know about your specific field, but in most of the sciences there's the opportunity for respecialization during postdocs and even as a faculty member. I therefore wouldn't worry too much about the fact that S doesn't have precisely the research you want to work in. That said, if you're really passionate about that particular research, your passion might be a great motivating factor during your study at A.
As for the personal aspect, I went through something very similar. I don't want to go into the gory details; suffice it to say that I can understand why your girlfriend is upset, and that this particular decision might be worthy of in depth discussion by the two of you as a couple. She sees the decision you have to make as a decision between taking "the next step" in your relationship or effectively breaking up. By considering A, you're letting her know that she's a secondary consideration: that's unromantic at best, decidedly callous at the worst. I understand abbyladybug's point, but the selflessness goes both ways, does it not?
As a possible irrelevant side note, I'm glad I didn't go through grad school single. Made the whole experience much easier, I think.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:24 PM on March 18, 2005
As for the personal aspect, I went through something very similar. I don't want to go into the gory details; suffice it to say that I can understand why your girlfriend is upset, and that this particular decision might be worthy of in depth discussion by the two of you as a couple. She sees the decision you have to make as a decision between taking "the next step" in your relationship or effectively breaking up. By considering A, you're letting her know that she's a secondary consideration: that's unromantic at best, decidedly callous at the worst. I understand abbyladybug's point, but the selflessness goes both ways, does it not?
As a possible irrelevant side note, I'm glad I didn't go through grad school single. Made the whole experience much easier, I think.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:24 PM on March 18, 2005
This, to me, is the crux of it: if this is a fair depiction of the situation, then she's flatly unwilling to make a short-term sacrifice (either for the sake of the person she loves, or the relationship she wants to deepen), yet is flatly demanding a long-term sacrifice from you. Her fear of losing you is real, and understandable. But I can't imagine that you can have a happy long-term relationship if these are truly to be the ground rules.
In a mature relationship, people give up stuff. We do it because we know it's what they need, because even putting up with the shitty parts can be a joy when you know it's bringing something important and special into your lover's life, because we have faith that making the other person's life better will make our shared life infinitely better too.
I think this is the most elegant expression of what I also see as the catch-22 you're facing. A lot of truth there, nakedcodemonkey.
posted by drpynchon at 6:40 PM on March 18, 2005
In a mature relationship, people give up stuff. We do it because we know it's what they need, because even putting up with the shitty parts can be a joy when you know it's bringing something important and special into your lover's life, because we have faith that making the other person's life better will make our shared life infinitely better too.
I think this is the most elegant expression of what I also see as the catch-22 you're facing. A lot of truth there, nakedcodemonkey.
posted by drpynchon at 6:40 PM on March 18, 2005
Arizona is not the boondocks, nor is it that far from California. Driving between offers incredible opportunity for "Ah Ha!". Really, the 'monotony' of the desert is very therapeutic.
So you've wanted to work with these people in AZ all along, and you've qualified yourself to achieve this goal. Wow, that is awesome. Now a gf tries to pull this crap on your head? What worries me is that this is the way she will ALWAYS deal with situations.
I'm a romantic freak, but I really have to say, she shouldn't be a very big factor, if at all, in your decision. Both of you should be working in your respective pursuits and, if it suits, see each other on weekends and holidays. Or go your separate ways.
If you are both such dedicated academics you should welcome this as an opportunity for both of you to totally focus on your work, and do the long distance relationship thing--Assuming you don't decide that choice B is better for you. (I can't address that).
posted by Goofyy at 7:34 PM on March 18, 2005
So you've wanted to work with these people in AZ all along, and you've qualified yourself to achieve this goal. Wow, that is awesome. Now a gf tries to pull this crap on your head? What worries me is that this is the way she will ALWAYS deal with situations.
I'm a romantic freak, but I really have to say, she shouldn't be a very big factor, if at all, in your decision. Both of you should be working in your respective pursuits and, if it suits, see each other on weekends and holidays. Or go your separate ways.
If you are both such dedicated academics you should welcome this as an opportunity for both of you to totally focus on your work, and do the long distance relationship thing--Assuming you don't decide that choice B is better for you. (I can't address that).
posted by Goofyy at 7:34 PM on March 18, 2005
I think the fundamental issue is much simpler--if she's going to categorically eliminate options on your behalf, then you _really_ should think twice about the actual nature of your relationship.
It's not even just an issue of academics, and where you go to school. What's going to happen if you start thinking of getting married? How you're going to get married? Where you're going to get married? What about having kids? Do you really want to go through life with someone who insists that your personal priorities aren't important?
If putting it that way seems like it's "rushing things", then definitely, definitely think twice about the relationship. If you're not thiiis close to getting engaged, you're putting a lot of stock into a relationship that's already got some glaring issues. Basically, she's insisting that you put her before anything else, even hypothetically--that just reeks of manipulation.
posted by LairBob at 8:57 PM on March 18, 2005
It's not even just an issue of academics, and where you go to school. What's going to happen if you start thinking of getting married? How you're going to get married? Where you're going to get married? What about having kids? Do you really want to go through life with someone who insists that your personal priorities aren't important?
If putting it that way seems like it's "rushing things", then definitely, definitely think twice about the relationship. If you're not thiiis close to getting engaged, you're putting a lot of stock into a relationship that's already got some glaring issues. Basically, she's insisting that you put her before anything else, even hypothetically--that just reeks of manipulation.
posted by LairBob at 8:57 PM on March 18, 2005
Probably in your field an academic job would only come after a post-doc. So get the glamour Stanfred PhD then do a post-doc with the Azzies if you still want to. Marine invertebrate neurophys? Stanfred and area has to be one of the best places in the world for that. And Universities really are brand names and you get a generic-logo phd at your peril.
Doing a PhD can be a lonely, isolating, emotional experience - one of the reason's so many relationships break up during it. If you're still with her in 5 years, great, but thats a lot longer in grad-student years.
posted by Rumple at 10:05 PM on March 18, 2005
Doing a PhD can be a lonely, isolating, emotional experience - one of the reason's so many relationships break up during it. If you're still with her in 5 years, great, but thats a lot longer in grad-student years.
posted by Rumple at 10:05 PM on March 18, 2005
I'd say just go to S, get an undoubtedly great education, and enjoy your life with the woman you love, but that's not an answer to the question you asked.
The question you asked is, are you being dumpworthy? I'd say moving that far away qualifies you for a "yes." If my S.O. actively considered moving that far away from me, then, yes, I would actively consider breaking up with her. Wouldn't you consider the same? Most of this thread advises that relationships are transitory, and you need to look out for yourself. She seems to be following similar advice.
Note that she hasn't dumped you yet. Whether or not it is a surprise, this must be upsetting to her. What may seem to you like an intractable judgement on her part may mellow-- even in the next couple of days. Just two cents from the other side.
posted by samh23 at 12:46 AM on March 19, 2005
The question you asked is, are you being dumpworthy? I'd say moving that far away qualifies you for a "yes." If my S.O. actively considered moving that far away from me, then, yes, I would actively consider breaking up with her. Wouldn't you consider the same? Most of this thread advises that relationships are transitory, and you need to look out for yourself. She seems to be following similar advice.
Note that she hasn't dumped you yet. Whether or not it is a surprise, this must be upsetting to her. What may seem to you like an intractable judgement on her part may mellow-- even in the next couple of days. Just two cents from the other side.
posted by samh23 at 12:46 AM on March 19, 2005
I can understand frustration, sorrow, confusion and worry as some reasonable emotions when facing a possible long-term physical separation, but anger at you for having a decision to make seems quite wrong. I think the idea of flat-out not even considering option B would be incredibly strange on your part.
In terms of the overall context of this dilemma, here's something to think about: In a marriage, one of the most difficult things to do is to preserve an emotional recognition of one's partner as a separate being with needs and interests and choices that exist outside of the "two-of-you" bond. The momentum of a serious relationship tends to lead the two parties to modify their separate lives into a sort of hybrid single state that incorporates what it can of individual preferences and habits, and throws out the rest. This is natural and fairly useful in the early stages, because it helps to cement the bond and create some sort of "relationship structure" that provides security and a point of reference — an anchor for the union.
But, in my opinion, to mindlessly follow this paradigm for the lifetime of the relationship means that, in a sense, all possibilities are being reduced to the lowest common denominator between the two partners, and existence turns grey and dull. Lovers who can remain delighted with each other over the years are those, I think, who have (or who have found) the knack of recognizing each other as interesting people outside of the entity that is "the couple".
Not every difference should be met halfway, and not every choice should be molded to somehow suit the union; sometimes things just need to be done separately. Striking the right emotional balance in this can sometimes be quite tricky, but those who are able to successfully navigate the idea of difference will still find their partners interesting and fun 20 years down the line, and those who allow some kind of "tyranny of love" to reshape every aspect of their lives will be bored, unfulfilled and frustrated.
It sounds as though perhaps the two of you are still in the gestation period of the relationship, and, if so, it may be understandable that all her impulses are to consider only choices that reinforce and strengthen the relationship, but if you two are thinking long-term, it might be worthwhile to try to sort out your ideas of what that togetherness will ideally mean to each of you.
posted by taz at 1:10 AM on March 19, 2005
In terms of the overall context of this dilemma, here's something to think about: In a marriage, one of the most difficult things to do is to preserve an emotional recognition of one's partner as a separate being with needs and interests and choices that exist outside of the "two-of-you" bond. The momentum of a serious relationship tends to lead the two parties to modify their separate lives into a sort of hybrid single state that incorporates what it can of individual preferences and habits, and throws out the rest. This is natural and fairly useful in the early stages, because it helps to cement the bond and create some sort of "relationship structure" that provides security and a point of reference — an anchor for the union.
But, in my opinion, to mindlessly follow this paradigm for the lifetime of the relationship means that, in a sense, all possibilities are being reduced to the lowest common denominator between the two partners, and existence turns grey and dull. Lovers who can remain delighted with each other over the years are those, I think, who have (or who have found) the knack of recognizing each other as interesting people outside of the entity that is "the couple".
Not every difference should be met halfway, and not every choice should be molded to somehow suit the union; sometimes things just need to be done separately. Striking the right emotional balance in this can sometimes be quite tricky, but those who are able to successfully navigate the idea of difference will still find their partners interesting and fun 20 years down the line, and those who allow some kind of "tyranny of love" to reshape every aspect of their lives will be bored, unfulfilled and frustrated.
It sounds as though perhaps the two of you are still in the gestation period of the relationship, and, if so, it may be understandable that all her impulses are to consider only choices that reinforce and strengthen the relationship, but if you two are thinking long-term, it might be worthwhile to try to sort out your ideas of what that togetherness will ideally mean to each of you.
posted by taz at 1:10 AM on March 19, 2005
To reiterate:
Communicate your feelings as much as you logically pick through options.
posted by hellbient at 1:38 AM on March 19, 2005
Communicate your feelings as much as you logically pick through options.
posted by hellbient at 1:38 AM on March 19, 2005
She's being dumpworthy. Whether she wants to go to where (A) is, or not, discussing it with you shouldn't make her furious.
Are you sure that this is the actual source of the fury? In my experience, a relocation offer to a girlfriend has to be accompanied by a marriage proposal. If the one is presented without the other, that might where the actual tension is coming from.
posted by ikkyu2 at 2:54 AM on March 19, 2005
Are you sure that this is the actual source of the fury? In my experience, a relocation offer to a girlfriend has to be accompanied by a marriage proposal. If the one is presented without the other, that might where the actual tension is coming from.
posted by ikkyu2 at 2:54 AM on March 19, 2005
If you are not going to be a professor, go to the lesser school and stay with your gf. If you are going to be a professor, then take a hard look at the advisors at both schools rather than the departments overall. If someone isn't going to be your advisor (because they are outside your specific field of research) discount them as a factor.
So you are left with maybe a few people. If it's a really good department, then maybe 6-7 people all in one subfield. If a department is good, but not for the people in your subfield, then there is no difference in these schools academically from your p.o.v.
Now, realize this: if you are going to be a professor, what is most important in graduate school is the work you accomplish on your own. No advisor is going to get you anywhere other than to your first paper. After that, they advise. they do not spoonfeed. All professors are professors because of the work they were able to do independently in grad school.
There is a big difference between top school in the world and worst school in the world, because it'll be harder to get noticed on the job market when you come from the latter. But you said A and B were close, so what I said holds.
Finally, if you are making decisions like this with your gf, you need a pre-marriage discussion... like "I'm moving to the lesser school because we plan to get married one day, right?" Moving together without engagement is ripe for problems later.
posted by about_time at 6:32 AM on March 19, 2005
So you are left with maybe a few people. If it's a really good department, then maybe 6-7 people all in one subfield. If a department is good, but not for the people in your subfield, then there is no difference in these schools academically from your p.o.v.
Now, realize this: if you are going to be a professor, what is most important in graduate school is the work you accomplish on your own. No advisor is going to get you anywhere other than to your first paper. After that, they advise. they do not spoonfeed. All professors are professors because of the work they were able to do independently in grad school.
There is a big difference between top school in the world and worst school in the world, because it'll be harder to get noticed on the job market when you come from the latter. But you said A and B were close, so what I said holds.
Finally, if you are making decisions like this with your gf, you need a pre-marriage discussion... like "I'm moving to the lesser school because we plan to get married one day, right?" Moving together without engagement is ripe for problems later.
posted by about_time at 6:32 AM on March 19, 2005
I want to emphasize something that I wrote earlier:
Something to consider: if you go into academia, it is highly likely that the relocation issue will come up again in five years, or whenever you get your degree. If it is a problem now, when you're dating, how serious is it going to be when you're married and have kids?
This was before you revealed a crucial piece of information, namely that she's an academic too. So, you're going to need to re-read what I've written above, and give it exponential importance.
I can't pretend to advise you on what decision you should make. That is between you and your girlfriend alone. However, I can tell you that need to fully understand the implications of being an academic couple. It is a hard truth but you both need to stare it in the face and deal with it honestly. If you are both truly committed to each other and to your careers, this will not be a one-time decision for you. You will be making decisions like this for your entire life. One or (most likely) both of you will, more than once, be called upon to make long-term sacrifices. Especially geographical sacrifices. Almost certainly career sacrifices.
I know many academic couples. Most of them are separated by hundreds or even thousands of miles, for the duration of their careers, because it was simply not possible for them to get tenure-track jobs in the same state. The odds of getting career jobs in the same city are even smaller; at the same institution, infinitesimal. They may only spend weekends together once or twice a month. They may get to be closer during the summers or sabbatical years, but those are few and far between. They had to make a choice between a long-distance relationship, a career sacrifice, or going their separate ways. Those were the only options. You are going to have to make that choice as well, and you are going to have to make it over and over and over.
Are you both prepared for that? Only the two of you know the answer. You are going to need a lot of patience and understanding. I hope that you are both able come to terms with this. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck.
posted by casu marzu at 10:59 AM on March 19, 2005
Something to consider: if you go into academia, it is highly likely that the relocation issue will come up again in five years, or whenever you get your degree. If it is a problem now, when you're dating, how serious is it going to be when you're married and have kids?
This was before you revealed a crucial piece of information, namely that she's an academic too. So, you're going to need to re-read what I've written above, and give it exponential importance.
I can't pretend to advise you on what decision you should make. That is between you and your girlfriend alone. However, I can tell you that need to fully understand the implications of being an academic couple. It is a hard truth but you both need to stare it in the face and deal with it honestly. If you are both truly committed to each other and to your careers, this will not be a one-time decision for you. You will be making decisions like this for your entire life. One or (most likely) both of you will, more than once, be called upon to make long-term sacrifices. Especially geographical sacrifices. Almost certainly career sacrifices.
I know many academic couples. Most of them are separated by hundreds or even thousands of miles, for the duration of their careers, because it was simply not possible for them to get tenure-track jobs in the same state. The odds of getting career jobs in the same city are even smaller; at the same institution, infinitesimal. They may only spend weekends together once or twice a month. They may get to be closer during the summers or sabbatical years, but those are few and far between. They had to make a choice between a long-distance relationship, a career sacrifice, or going their separate ways. Those were the only options. You are going to have to make that choice as well, and you are going to have to make it over and over and over.
Are you both prepared for that? Only the two of you know the answer. You are going to need a lot of patience and understanding. I hope that you are both able come to terms with this. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck.
posted by casu marzu at 10:59 AM on March 19, 2005
And Universities really are brand names and you get a generic-logo phd at your peril.
A lot of people have expressed similar sentiments. In my experience this is only true to people outside your field. Perhaps the facts differ from field to field, but if a university is not a "brand name", and it is still good in your field, other people in that field will know. They are the crucial ones for getting a job. Brand names often even have some stigma associated with them even - for instance, one of the top, brand name schools in my field is very rich, and grad students practically never TA. New graduates from that school are always very inexperienced teachers, and this is a known thing. Brand name isn't always positive. So (assuming my experience generalizes) if you want to impress your friends and family, take the name of the school into consideration. Otherwise, you should consider other factors.
Disclaimer: I had to make a choice between two top programs, one brand name known to everyone in the country, and one not well known outside of my field (except for in astrophysics, I think). I chose the second one. Now I have to deal with the fact that many people I meet have no idea that it's particularly good, but I think I'm getting a better education, and am in a better environment to do my research. I think in the end it will help, not hurt, my job prospects.
posted by advil at 1:35 PM on March 19, 2005
A lot of people have expressed similar sentiments. In my experience this is only true to people outside your field. Perhaps the facts differ from field to field, but if a university is not a "brand name", and it is still good in your field, other people in that field will know. They are the crucial ones for getting a job. Brand names often even have some stigma associated with them even - for instance, one of the top, brand name schools in my field is very rich, and grad students practically never TA. New graduates from that school are always very inexperienced teachers, and this is a known thing. Brand name isn't always positive. So (assuming my experience generalizes) if you want to impress your friends and family, take the name of the school into consideration. Otherwise, you should consider other factors.
Disclaimer: I had to make a choice between two top programs, one brand name known to everyone in the country, and one not well known outside of my field (except for in astrophysics, I think). I chose the second one. Now I have to deal with the fact that many people I meet have no idea that it's particularly good, but I think I'm getting a better education, and am in a better environment to do my research. I think in the end it will help, not hurt, my job prospects.
posted by advil at 1:35 PM on March 19, 2005
i won't advise on academic matters being a college drop-out ... but i will say that i don't think it's fair of her to demand you stay in her area if you haven't proposed to her ... if she's asking for that much, i think she should be willing to commit to that ... if she's not ... or if you're not ... then you should do what you feel is best in school
i'm not saying you should propose ... i'm just saying that i think that's the level of commitment she's asking of you and both of you should recognize it for what it is
posted by pyramid termite at 2:07 PM on March 19, 2005
i'm not saying you should propose ... i'm just saying that i think that's the level of commitment she's asking of you and both of you should recognize it for what it is
posted by pyramid termite at 2:07 PM on March 19, 2005
I can understand frustration, sorrow, confusion and worry as some reasonable emotions when facing a possible long-term physical separation, but anger at you for having a decision to make seems quite wrong.
For most people, anger is just an expression of frustration, sorrow, confusion and worry.
It sounds to me like she just felt hurt that you seemed quite comfortable immediately considering leaving her (at least physically) for a professional goal. Perhaps you didnt' present it in a way that gave the impression it was a tough choice for you - and maybe it isn't; maybe you don't honestly feel all that passionately about the relationship, and that's showing through now...
Of course, I'd have thought this would have been talked about when you applied... And if you're both in academia, I don't really see how this issue could have been avoided. As people above have said, relocation is practically a given. If you do stay together, it'll have to be addressed at some point.
posted by mdn at 2:46 PM on March 19, 2005
For most people, anger is just an expression of frustration, sorrow, confusion and worry.
It sounds to me like she just felt hurt that you seemed quite comfortable immediately considering leaving her (at least physically) for a professional goal. Perhaps you didnt' present it in a way that gave the impression it was a tough choice for you - and maybe it isn't; maybe you don't honestly feel all that passionately about the relationship, and that's showing through now...
Of course, I'd have thought this would have been talked about when you applied... And if you're both in academia, I don't really see how this issue could have been avoided. As people above have said, relocation is practically a given. If you do stay together, it'll have to be addressed at some point.
posted by mdn at 2:46 PM on March 19, 2005
A lot of people have expressed similar sentiments. In my experience this is only true to people outside your field.
Yup. In my own field, a degree from Iowa or Ohio State is probably better than one from, say, UPenn, or maybe even Cornell, even though UPenn and Cornell are Ivies and the other two aren't. And for a long time, a degree from Rochester, of all places, probably would have been better than any of these (for some subfields).
On the other hand, even within the field, reputations can be slow to adjust to the facts on the ground. Only you and your current advisers know if Arzonia, irrespective of its current strengths, has a great reputation yet / still.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:36 PM on March 19, 2005
Yup. In my own field, a degree from Iowa or Ohio State is probably better than one from, say, UPenn, or maybe even Cornell, even though UPenn and Cornell are Ivies and the other two aren't. And for a long time, a degree from Rochester, of all places, probably would have been better than any of these (for some subfields).
On the other hand, even within the field, reputations can be slow to adjust to the facts on the ground. Only you and your current advisers know if Arzonia, irrespective of its current strengths, has a great reputation yet / still.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:36 PM on March 19, 2005
Response by poster: Y'all,
I want to thank you for your help and thoughts here. Aside from bombarding me with enough opinions that mine could filter to the top, it was lovely to hear from so many of you. Seriously. Thanks.
And I'm going to Stanford, by the by. I got some good advising on the work I was to do at Arizona, which made it seem a little less 'necessary'; and I also decided I wanted to live in the bay in any case. I think it's a good decision all around. As for the girl, we shall see.
posted by metaculpa at 5:59 PM on April 6, 2005
I want to thank you for your help and thoughts here. Aside from bombarding me with enough opinions that mine could filter to the top, it was lovely to hear from so many of you. Seriously. Thanks.
And I'm going to Stanford, by the by. I got some good advising on the work I was to do at Arizona, which made it seem a little less 'necessary'; and I also decided I wanted to live in the bay in any case. I think it's a good decision all around. As for the girl, we shall see.
posted by metaculpa at 5:59 PM on April 6, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by duck at 3:52 PM on March 18, 2005