One passport or two?
August 28, 2010 4:18 PM Subscribe
The mister has dual Canadian/British citizenship, hasn't resided in UK since 1946, and no plans to. However, we are planning extended visit to UK and Europe in a few years (we are retired), would there be any advantages to him getting a UK passport? He travels with a Canadian Passport.
I looked up previous questions, and have done some basic research, and for a younger person, especially someone who may want to live/work in the UK or EU someday, it's a no-brainer, get the passport.
I am just wondering if there are any potential advantages to a non-UK-resident who is older/retired for a 4-6 month long visit to the UK and Europe in 3 years. Will it open doors the Canadian passport won't? Would it be easier to rent a flat in the UK, or say France or Italy, if he had the UK passport?
For the record, I have U.S. citizenship/passport only.
Greatly appreciate any insight, experience or thoughts.
I looked up previous questions, and have done some basic research, and for a younger person, especially someone who may want to live/work in the UK or EU someday, it's a no-brainer, get the passport.
I am just wondering if there are any potential advantages to a non-UK-resident who is older/retired for a 4-6 month long visit to the UK and Europe in 3 years. Will it open doors the Canadian passport won't? Would it be easier to rent a flat in the UK, or say France or Italy, if he had the UK passport?
For the record, I have U.S. citizenship/passport only.
Greatly appreciate any insight, experience or thoughts.
Several hundred pounds and many hours in the application. Possible benefit: a shorter line at immigration perhaps. It does not sound worth it to me.
posted by rongorongo at 4:45 PM on August 28, 2010
posted by rongorongo at 4:45 PM on August 28, 2010
Agree with the other posters, too much work for too little reward, unless there's some hidden advantage eluding all of us.
posted by mannequito at 4:59 PM on August 28, 2010
posted by mannequito at 4:59 PM on August 28, 2010
so even if he had a UK passport he'd still have to show it travelling around Europe.
That's true whatever passport you have.. British, French, American, or whatever. With a UK passport, once you enter the Schengen zone, you won't need to show your passport again while you remain within it. (And how would they work out whose passports to check and who to let walk straight through, otherwise? :-))
posted by wackybrit at 5:00 PM on August 28, 2010
That's true whatever passport you have.. British, French, American, or whatever. With a UK passport, once you enter the Schengen zone, you won't need to show your passport again while you remain within it. (And how would they work out whose passports to check and who to let walk straight through, otherwise? :-))
posted by wackybrit at 5:00 PM on August 28, 2010
Response by poster: Kind of what I figured, appreciate the responses. The mister had mentioned it, and it didn't seem viable and/or needed to me.
posted by batikrose at 5:23 PM on August 28, 2010
posted by batikrose at 5:23 PM on August 28, 2010
generally if you're visiting a country you're a citizen of, they require you to enter with their passport. you should check whether this is true of the uk.
posted by lia at 6:09 PM on August 28, 2010
posted by lia at 6:09 PM on August 28, 2010
For traveling, it's a toss up.
But for renting property, it will DEFINITELY be helpful for him to have his UK passport. It opens the door for bank accounts, credit checks, less money down as security, etc.
posted by randomstriker at 6:22 PM on August 28, 2010
But for renting property, it will DEFINITELY be helpful for him to have his UK passport. It opens the door for bank accounts, credit checks, less money down as security, etc.
posted by randomstriker at 6:22 PM on August 28, 2010
yes - if you are a UK citizen *by law*, you need to enter the UK on a UK passport or a Right of Abode stamp.
posted by wayward vagabond at 11:38 PM on August 28, 2010
posted by wayward vagabond at 11:38 PM on August 28, 2010
(also just to say the current passport application is about £70 I think. right of abode stamp may be slightly less.)
posted by wayward vagabond at 11:41 PM on August 28, 2010
posted by wayward vagabond at 11:41 PM on August 28, 2010
Countries don't check your citizenship if you've got a valid passport from a different country. I'm a Canadian citizen but have an expired passport and haven't bothered getting a new one so every time I visit it's on my Australian passport, and not once in 10 years has it been an issue.
posted by Silentgoldfish at 12:50 AM on August 29, 2010
posted by Silentgoldfish at 12:50 AM on August 29, 2010
Just don't mention that he's also a British citizen to UK immigration. It could flag up immigration concerns for one or both of you. (It certainly might at US immigration for example.)
posted by plonkee at 1:28 AM on August 29, 2010
posted by plonkee at 1:28 AM on August 29, 2010
If the UK really has a law, like many (or most?) counties, that says a citizen must only enter the country with that country's passport then it seems risky to knowingly violate it. He will probably get away with it when he shows his Canadian passport and I don't know how serious a matter it would really be but ... who knows ... the immigration officer might hear his accent and say "you don't sound Canadian ... where are you really from" and land himself in some trouble, potentially screwing up your visit there.
posted by tetranz at 4:55 AM on August 29, 2010
posted by tetranz at 4:55 AM on August 29, 2010
I am a dual US/UK citizen holding both passports. According to both sides, it is important to exit and re-enter your home country on the same (home country,in my case, since I need proof of citizenship or permanent residency to stay in the US) passport.
Once outside the US, I could use my UK passport to travel anywhere non-US (and have done so). Alone, it has a slight advantage if lines are shorter or if I'm wanting to go to Cuba. But often in Europe I've found EU lines longer than non-EU lines. And when traveling with a friend who doesn't have an EU passport, it just means you both have to do all the waiting of both lines, but apart instead of together -- which, frankly, sucks.
Short version: like others, I think it is an expensive waste of time for him to get a passport for this trip.
posted by obliquicity at 7:10 AM on August 29, 2010
Once outside the US, I could use my UK passport to travel anywhere non-US (and have done so). Alone, it has a slight advantage if lines are shorter or if I'm wanting to go to Cuba. But often in Europe I've found EU lines longer than non-EU lines. And when traveling with a friend who doesn't have an EU passport, it just means you both have to do all the waiting of both lines, but apart instead of together -- which, frankly, sucks.
Short version: like others, I think it is an expensive waste of time for him to get a passport for this trip.
posted by obliquicity at 7:10 AM on August 29, 2010
Hang on a minute. Several of the answers above are making very firm assertions based on slender or no evidence. I don't have much personal knowledge of this either--I only have one (UK) passport--but I can see that some of the advice above is pretty shaky.
"Several hundred pounds [!] and many hours in the application", for example. A quick bit of googling suggests that a new 32-page passport costs $217 including postage--including postage because it has to be done through the UK Passport Service for the Americas and Caribbean. $217 is pricier than I expected but it comes out at £140, which is not 'several hundred pounds', and a postal application is not going to involve 'many hours' (though it does involve a wait of, they hope, no more than four weeks).
Randomstriker's suggestion that it would be useful for opening bank accounts, renting accommodation etc. sounds more plausible, but can someone actually verify this? My experience and that of friends is that opening a bank account in the UK can be difficult even for someone with an EU passport. Would a UK passport make this easier? I don't know, because as a UK national I've never had to show my passport when opening a bank account--but then, I've never returned to the UK after a 60-year absence wanting to do so. If someone who actually has that information could pass it on to the OP, it might be useful to them. Getting your money bit by bit from a foreign bank account over the course of a 6-month visit can become expensive, and with a British bank account it would also be easier (and cheaper) to pay rent on a flat by bank transfer (which some landlords insist on). If the OP & husband are actually planning 4-6 weeks in each of Britain, France, Germany and Italy then this probably isn't worth the trouble. If they're planning six months in London with weekend trips to other European capitals, on the other hand, it might be.
Regarding travel, no, there won't be any need to show the passport again once inside the Schengen zone, whether it's a UK, US, or Canadian one. But what are the visa restrictions for Canadian and US passport holders? I think it's maximum 90 days in one country at one time, and possibly with no return inside a set period after that--that's what someone mentioned in a
previous thread on Germany, anyway. Now, again: if OP & husband are going to spend no more than a month in each country, it's probably not worth the bother of husband 'reactivating' his right to a UK passport. But if they plan to spend a whole winter in Palermo, or want to give themselves the option of doing something like that, then once again the UK passport becomes useful. Because with it, husband can stay as long as he likes in any EU country, and I'm pretty sure that OP (being married to him) is allowed to do so too. Once again, I'm not sure about all of this--but if I was the OP, I'd want to make sure before dismissing the idea out of hand.
So: my advice, as someone who doesn't know much about this, is to seek out accurate information based on your actual plans--e.g. do you want to stay in one country long enough that you might bust a residency limit for non-EU nationals; are you planning to be in Britain long enough for a British bank account to be useful; if you're planning to spend all your time in Berlin and want a bank account there is it easier for an EU citizen to open one than a US or Canadian citizen... Crikey, your husband could even decide if he wants to vote in local elections (!). Perhaps some of that information could even come from here. If the trip is three years away, there's plenty of time to ask more questions!
posted by lapsangsouchong at 9:05 AM on August 29, 2010
"Several hundred pounds [!] and many hours in the application", for example. A quick bit of googling suggests that a new 32-page passport costs $217 including postage--including postage because it has to be done through the UK Passport Service for the Americas and Caribbean. $217 is pricier than I expected but it comes out at £140, which is not 'several hundred pounds', and a postal application is not going to involve 'many hours' (though it does involve a wait of, they hope, no more than four weeks).
Randomstriker's suggestion that it would be useful for opening bank accounts, renting accommodation etc. sounds more plausible, but can someone actually verify this? My experience and that of friends is that opening a bank account in the UK can be difficult even for someone with an EU passport. Would a UK passport make this easier? I don't know, because as a UK national I've never had to show my passport when opening a bank account--but then, I've never returned to the UK after a 60-year absence wanting to do so. If someone who actually has that information could pass it on to the OP, it might be useful to them. Getting your money bit by bit from a foreign bank account over the course of a 6-month visit can become expensive, and with a British bank account it would also be easier (and cheaper) to pay rent on a flat by bank transfer (which some landlords insist on). If the OP & husband are actually planning 4-6 weeks in each of Britain, France, Germany and Italy then this probably isn't worth the trouble. If they're planning six months in London with weekend trips to other European capitals, on the other hand, it might be.
Regarding travel, no, there won't be any need to show the passport again once inside the Schengen zone, whether it's a UK, US, or Canadian one. But what are the visa restrictions for Canadian and US passport holders? I think it's maximum 90 days in one country at one time, and possibly with no return inside a set period after that--that's what someone mentioned in a
previous thread on Germany, anyway. Now, again: if OP & husband are going to spend no more than a month in each country, it's probably not worth the bother of husband 'reactivating' his right to a UK passport. But if they plan to spend a whole winter in Palermo, or want to give themselves the option of doing something like that, then once again the UK passport becomes useful. Because with it, husband can stay as long as he likes in any EU country, and I'm pretty sure that OP (being married to him) is allowed to do so too. Once again, I'm not sure about all of this--but if I was the OP, I'd want to make sure before dismissing the idea out of hand.
So: my advice, as someone who doesn't know much about this, is to seek out accurate information based on your actual plans--e.g. do you want to stay in one country long enough that you might bust a residency limit for non-EU nationals; are you planning to be in Britain long enough for a British bank account to be useful; if you're planning to spend all your time in Berlin and want a bank account there is it easier for an EU citizen to open one than a US or Canadian citizen... Crikey, your husband could even decide if he wants to vote in local elections (!). Perhaps some of that information could even come from here. If the trip is three years away, there's plenty of time to ask more questions!
posted by lapsangsouchong at 9:05 AM on August 29, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks lapsangsouchong, excellent points all around.
This is specifically why we are planning three years out ... to research and figure out what will best suit us, and also to learn language essentials for the countries we plan to visit (he speaks English and French, I can manage a bit of German and Spanish, but am primarily English only). In fact, the idea we had was to base ourselves in England and tour out from there. We travel fulltime in North America and find we get the best "flavor" by living in chosen areas for a few months at a time, rather than just "touristing". Also, with our combined pursuits of art, photography, writing and music, having a base is helpful, and touring in an RV (caravan) seems not to be as viable in UK/EU.
One detail I left out, and is perhaps major, is that he is a professional musician and "if" the opportunity arose for him to perform, he would like to take it. He has visited the U.K. in the past 60 years, but never for more than a month at a time, and not since 1992.
Anyway, any and all suggestions are welcomed ... will put off marking best answers for another day to see what other responses I get.
posted by batikrose at 10:50 AM on August 29, 2010
This is specifically why we are planning three years out ... to research and figure out what will best suit us, and also to learn language essentials for the countries we plan to visit (he speaks English and French, I can manage a bit of German and Spanish, but am primarily English only). In fact, the idea we had was to base ourselves in England and tour out from there. We travel fulltime in North America and find we get the best "flavor" by living in chosen areas for a few months at a time, rather than just "touristing". Also, with our combined pursuits of art, photography, writing and music, having a base is helpful, and touring in an RV (caravan) seems not to be as viable in UK/EU.
One detail I left out, and is perhaps major, is that he is a professional musician and "if" the opportunity arose for him to perform, he would like to take it. He has visited the U.K. in the past 60 years, but never for more than a month at a time, and not since 1992.
Anyway, any and all suggestions are welcomed ... will put off marking best answers for another day to see what other responses I get.
posted by batikrose at 10:50 AM on August 29, 2010
Best answer: Will it open doors the Canadian passport won't? Would it be easier to rent a flat in the UK, or say France or Italy, if he had the UK passport?
Yes! In fact, I think your proposed trip is virtually impossible without it. In fact, when your husband goes back to Britain and runs into trouble, he will be treated as a UK citizen, not a Canadian one; if he's arrested or something, again, Canada will be of no help if Britain decides it should be that way. It's called the Master Nationality Rule. As lapsangsouchong said, it is also worth investigating if you qualify to become a UK passport holder, as the spouse of a British citizen.
Now, onto your trip. Let's imagine it was just you going, no EU passport in hand. The Schengen zone countries allow only a collective three-months-in-a-half-year visa-free visit for US citizens. You DON'T get to "reset the clock" by visiting Britain or even Russia (or anywhere else) for the weekend, and as internal borders are almost completely unpoliced (ie, there's NO record AT ALL of trips between Schengen states - you could bike from Lisbon to Helsinki or swim from Germany to Denmark and no one would ever know), you'll have no proof that you've spent x days in France or Portugal or something.
However! You are married to an EU citizen, documents or not. This changes a lot. Here's the EU's page on the rights of non-EU citizen spouses of EU citizens (so, you) residing in another EU state (so, not Britain). It looks complex, but basically if you decided to settle down in Sicily or Corfu or something, you could - it seems that you'd get a temporary resident card and be treated as a citizen if you wanted to hang out for more than 3 months.
This is especially useful if you're planning on staying on for a bit in non-English-speaking places where waving a local ID card around and gesturing (say, a local branch of a health center or a bank) would open doors more than just gesturing. :) Overall, dealing with everyday stuff like that seems like it would be way easier with your husband carrying a British passport (and your marriage certificate to get the residence card) than anything else.
To really find out what your rights are under EU law - and that's what matters here, because your husband *is* a British citizen as far as Britain and the EU is concerned - I'd ask the EU's Your Europe, which can help direct you to both British resources to get your question answered as to whether he needs a passport, if you qualify for one, and what the legal landscape would look like were something to happen to your husband and you were in the EU "alone".
Good luck!
posted by mdonley at 2:36 PM on August 29, 2010
Yes! In fact, I think your proposed trip is virtually impossible without it. In fact, when your husband goes back to Britain and runs into trouble, he will be treated as a UK citizen, not a Canadian one; if he's arrested or something, again, Canada will be of no help if Britain decides it should be that way. It's called the Master Nationality Rule. As lapsangsouchong said, it is also worth investigating if you qualify to become a UK passport holder, as the spouse of a British citizen.
Now, onto your trip. Let's imagine it was just you going, no EU passport in hand. The Schengen zone countries allow only a collective three-months-in-a-half-year visa-free visit for US citizens. You DON'T get to "reset the clock" by visiting Britain or even Russia (or anywhere else) for the weekend, and as internal borders are almost completely unpoliced (ie, there's NO record AT ALL of trips between Schengen states - you could bike from Lisbon to Helsinki or swim from Germany to Denmark and no one would ever know), you'll have no proof that you've spent x days in France or Portugal or something.
However! You are married to an EU citizen, documents or not. This changes a lot. Here's the EU's page on the rights of non-EU citizen spouses of EU citizens (so, you) residing in another EU state (so, not Britain). It looks complex, but basically if you decided to settle down in Sicily or Corfu or something, you could - it seems that you'd get a temporary resident card and be treated as a citizen if you wanted to hang out for more than 3 months.
This is especially useful if you're planning on staying on for a bit in non-English-speaking places where waving a local ID card around and gesturing (say, a local branch of a health center or a bank) would open doors more than just gesturing. :) Overall, dealing with everyday stuff like that seems like it would be way easier with your husband carrying a British passport (and your marriage certificate to get the residence card) than anything else.
To really find out what your rights are under EU law - and that's what matters here, because your husband *is* a British citizen as far as Britain and the EU is concerned - I'd ask the EU's Your Europe, which can help direct you to both British resources to get your question answered as to whether he needs a passport, if you qualify for one, and what the legal landscape would look like were something to happen to your husband and you were in the EU "alone".
Good luck!
posted by mdonley at 2:36 PM on August 29, 2010
Best answer: Randomstriker's suggestion that it would be useful for opening bank accounts, renting accommodation etc. sounds more plausible, but can someone actually verify this?
I hereby verify my own claim, basing it on direct personal experience.
I was born in the UK but lived overseas my entire life. In 2002 I moved to London, joining a group of freshly-arrived expatriates to form a new division in my company. The other boys were from Canada, USA, Turkey, Indonesia, Australia and Cameroon.
It wasn't exactly smooth sailing for me to obtain a National Insurance Number, open a bank account, rent a flat, etc, but really the worst I had to put up with was waiting in line or being put on hold on the telephone, listening to muzak for hours and/or waiting for days to get a response. Just the usual bureaucratic bullshit. I was treated with respect the whole time and never encountered any real obstacles to getting all that I needed.
For the rest of the gang, it was a different matter all together. The Aussies, Canucks and Yanks had to jump through a lot more hoops, running all over town, madly deciphering all of the various requirements, and phoning home quite often to get various papers faxed over.
The other fellows from Indonesia, Turkey and Cameroon had a downright horrible experience. They were spoken down to, treated with thinly-veiled racism, treated like guilty-before-proven-innocent illegal immigrant criminals, and forced to provide ten times as much documentation to get set up. I was quite upset on their behalf, but what truly amazed me was their ever-cheery, stoic attitude. "That's how people from poor countries get treated" was the constant refrain, spoken with bittersweet resignation.
After seeing that, I realized I have no right to complain about the trivial inconveniences in life.
Anyway, batikrose, back to your original question. Especially after seeing the additional info you've provided, my recommendation remains: Yes, definitely get the passport.
posted by randomstriker at 3:30 PM on August 29, 2010
I hereby verify my own claim, basing it on direct personal experience.
I was born in the UK but lived overseas my entire life. In 2002 I moved to London, joining a group of freshly-arrived expatriates to form a new division in my company. The other boys were from Canada, USA, Turkey, Indonesia, Australia and Cameroon.
It wasn't exactly smooth sailing for me to obtain a National Insurance Number, open a bank account, rent a flat, etc, but really the worst I had to put up with was waiting in line or being put on hold on the telephone, listening to muzak for hours and/or waiting for days to get a response. Just the usual bureaucratic bullshit. I was treated with respect the whole time and never encountered any real obstacles to getting all that I needed.
For the rest of the gang, it was a different matter all together. The Aussies, Canucks and Yanks had to jump through a lot more hoops, running all over town, madly deciphering all of the various requirements, and phoning home quite often to get various papers faxed over.
The other fellows from Indonesia, Turkey and Cameroon had a downright horrible experience. They were spoken down to, treated with thinly-veiled racism, treated like guilty-before-proven-innocent illegal immigrant criminals, and forced to provide ten times as much documentation to get set up. I was quite upset on their behalf, but what truly amazed me was their ever-cheery, stoic attitude. "That's how people from poor countries get treated" was the constant refrain, spoken with bittersweet resignation.
After seeing that, I realized I have no right to complain about the trivial inconveniences in life.
Anyway, batikrose, back to your original question. Especially after seeing the additional info you've provided, my recommendation remains: Yes, definitely get the passport.
posted by randomstriker at 3:30 PM on August 29, 2010
Best answer: One detail I left out, and is perhaps major, is that he is a professional musician and "if" the opportunity arose for him to perform, he would like to take it. He has visited the U.K. in the past 60 years, but never for more than a month at a time, and not since 1992.
A UK citizen has the right to work in the UK and anywhere else in the EU, though if the country of tax residence is Canada or the US there might be a little pirouetting to be done to get the tax paid in the right place. In the current economic climate, many if not all EU countries are making a show of clamping down extra-hard on non-EU migrant workers--but they're doing this precisely because by law they're not allowed to limit EU migration. There would by no problem with working for batikrose's mister if he had a British passport (and things would probably be easier for batikrose too).
Here's a suggestion: try and get him to line up enough work ahead of time to net at least US$217, after tax. That'd be the cost of the passport covered!
Also, I_pity_the_fool mentioned the possibility of getting a European Health Insurance Card. I wouldn't dismiss this if it can be done simply, especially if your health insurance is American rather than Canadian.
posted by lapsangsouchong at 3:43 PM on August 29, 2010
A UK citizen has the right to work in the UK and anywhere else in the EU, though if the country of tax residence is Canada or the US there might be a little pirouetting to be done to get the tax paid in the right place. In the current economic climate, many if not all EU countries are making a show of clamping down extra-hard on non-EU migrant workers--but they're doing this precisely because by law they're not allowed to limit EU migration. There would by no problem with working for batikrose's mister if he had a British passport (and things would probably be easier for batikrose too).
Here's a suggestion: try and get him to line up enough work ahead of time to net at least US$217, after tax. That'd be the cost of the passport covered!
Also, I_pity_the_fool mentioned the possibility of getting a European Health Insurance Card. I wouldn't dismiss this if it can be done simply, especially if your health insurance is American rather than Canadian.
posted by lapsangsouchong at 3:43 PM on August 29, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Hmm. The UK isn't a member of the Schengen zone, so even if he had a UK passport he'd still have to show it travelling around Europe. There's the small issue of the queues for EU citizens usually being shorter at passport control. If he has medical problems, then a British passport would entitle him to use a European Health Insurance Card. But that can be covered by paid-for medical insurance.
posted by I_pity_the_fool at 4:27 PM on August 28, 2010