Difference between National Adjectives ending in AN and those ending in ESE?
August 25, 2010 4:57 AM Subscribe
At my job we often need to ask the nationality of people we’re speaking to on the telephone. Help me solve a small disagreement around the grammar/ semantics of exactly how this is done.
Most people we speak to are from China. My co-worker will usually ask “are you a Chinese?” to establish this. To me, this sounds grammatically monstrous (and not a little backwards/racist/offensive, though I can’t pinpoint why) and that she should instead ask “Are you from China?” or “Are you a Chinese citizen?” or even just "are you Chinese?".
Her rationale is that the adjective “Chinese” is equivalent to “American”, “Korean”, etc. and can be used in the same way, as there is, of course, nothing strange, grammatically or otherwise, in referring to someone as “an American” or “a Korean”. I’m about 99% sure she’s completely wrong but I can’t figure out how to explain why.
So, how do I explain the grammatical difference between national adjectives that end in “ese” and those that end in “an”? Does “American” or “Tibetan” automatically change to a noun when not being used to modify another word like “person” or “government”? And is it likely the Chinese people we speak to (who generally have excellent, idiomatic English) are offended by being referred to as “a Chinese”?
Most people we speak to are from China. My co-worker will usually ask “are you a Chinese?” to establish this. To me, this sounds grammatically monstrous (and not a little backwards/racist/offensive, though I can’t pinpoint why) and that she should instead ask “Are you from China?” or “Are you a Chinese citizen?” or even just "are you Chinese?".
Her rationale is that the adjective “Chinese” is equivalent to “American”, “Korean”, etc. and can be used in the same way, as there is, of course, nothing strange, grammatically or otherwise, in referring to someone as “an American” or “a Korean”. I’m about 99% sure she’s completely wrong but I can’t figure out how to explain why.
So, how do I explain the grammatical difference between national adjectives that end in “ese” and those that end in “an”? Does “American” or “Tibetan” automatically change to a noun when not being used to modify another word like “person” or “government”? And is it likely the Chinese people we speak to (who generally have excellent, idiomatic English) are offended by being referred to as “a Chinese”?
Best answer: Grammatically, I think the best question is "Are you Chinese?". There is no specific demonym as far as I can tell that refers to an individual Chinese person (e.g. a British person* can individually be called a Briton, and an American person* is individually an American, but a Chinese person* is individually a Chinese person*).
However rather than guessing their nationality, and to side-step the "Chinese/a Chinese" issue, you're probably better off just asking "What nationality are you?".
*substitute National or Citizen for "person" if you prefer.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:19 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
However rather than guessing their nationality, and to side-step the "Chinese/a Chinese" issue, you're probably better off just asking "What nationality are you?".
*substitute National or Citizen for "person" if you prefer.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:19 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Do you really want to ask people their nationality, or are you using it to infer their preferred language, or the country that they are currently living in? Why not ask them "What is your nationality?" I can't answer your second question.
posted by devnull at 5:19 AM on August 25, 2010
posted by devnull at 5:19 AM on August 25, 2010
Best answer: Chinese is an adjective, except when referring to the language ("do you speak Chinese?"), so you wouldn't use an an article in front of it, any more than you would say, "Are you a French?"
American is both a noun for a citizen of the U.S. and an adjective for things pertaining to the U.S. or the American continent. So, whenever she is in doubt, she should just check the dictionary for whether the word is used as a noun for a citizen of that country.
This is not really for your coworker, but you will probably be interested in this: So Many Nationality Suffixes.
posted by taz at 5:20 AM on August 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
American is both a noun for a citizen of the U.S. and an adjective for things pertaining to the U.S. or the American continent. So, whenever she is in doubt, she should just check the dictionary for whether the word is used as a noun for a citizen of that country.
This is not really for your coworker, but you will probably be interested in this: So Many Nationality Suffixes.
posted by taz at 5:20 AM on August 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: My girlfriend, who's spent time in China, says that Chinese people will say "a Chinese" like this all the time and think nothing of it (FWIW, my experience is that Japanese people do this as well, e.g. "I am a Japanese"). Actually this sounds as strange to me as it apparently does to you, but you'll probably have to let it slide.
Having said that, what does she mean by "nationality"? Residence, citizenship, ethnic background? There's probably a way to say it that won't sound strange to anyone, but it depends on what's being meant.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 5:20 AM on August 25, 2010
Having said that, what does she mean by "nationality"? Residence, citizenship, ethnic background? There's probably a way to say it that won't sound strange to anyone, but it depends on what's being meant.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 5:20 AM on August 25, 2010
Best answer: There are two problems with your colleague's question: it's not gramatical and this can't be fixed in a way that doesn't introduce ambiguity without changing to something like "are you a Chinese citizen".
If you were to ask, "are you Chinese?", which is grammatical, as others have pointed out, then the problem is that anyone can consider themselves "Chinese" (or American, or whatever). I guess quite a lot of people would respond to the question "are you American?" with "how do you mean?" You can interpret it as "what do you consider yourself?", "where we you born?", "where do you live?" "what does it say on your passport?". It's ambiguous and subjective. Maybe that's fine. It depends on why you're asking the question.
So how you phrase the question (once you've fixed the grammar problem) depends entirely on what you and your colleagues want to know. If you want to know where they live, ask them where they live. If you want to know where they were born, ask them that. If you want to know whether they are a Chinese citizen, ask that. If you ask them "are you Chinese?", you're not breaking any rules of grammar, but they may not be answering the question you have in your mind.
And I'm kinda with you on it being a little blunt to the extent that it can sound backwards (see also the episode of 30 Rock where Jack asks if it's OK for him to call his Puerto Rican girlfriend "Puerto Rican").
posted by caek at 5:26 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you were to ask, "are you Chinese?", which is grammatical, as others have pointed out, then the problem is that anyone can consider themselves "Chinese" (or American, or whatever). I guess quite a lot of people would respond to the question "are you American?" with "how do you mean?" You can interpret it as "what do you consider yourself?", "where we you born?", "where do you live?" "what does it say on your passport?". It's ambiguous and subjective. Maybe that's fine. It depends on why you're asking the question.
So how you phrase the question (once you've fixed the grammar problem) depends entirely on what you and your colleagues want to know. If you want to know where they live, ask them where they live. If you want to know where they were born, ask them that. If you want to know whether they are a Chinese citizen, ask that. If you ask them "are you Chinese?", you're not breaking any rules of grammar, but they may not be answering the question you have in your mind.
And I'm kinda with you on it being a little blunt to the extent that it can sound backwards (see also the episode of 30 Rock where Jack asks if it's OK for him to call his Puerto Rican girlfriend "Puerto Rican").
posted by caek at 5:26 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
So how you phrase the question (once you've fixed the grammar problem) depends entirely on what you and your colleagues want to know. If you want to know where they live, ask them where they live. If you want to know where they were born, ask them that. If you want to know whether they are a Chinese citizen, ask that. If you ask them "are you Chinese?", you're not breaking any rules of grammar, but they may not be answering the question you have in your mind.
Yeah, this is a good point.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:41 AM on August 25, 2010
Yeah, this is a good point.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:41 AM on August 25, 2010
Response by poster: My own way of dealing with establishing nationality is just to ask, as a few of you have suggested “what nationality are you?” – simple, to the point, works every time. My co-worker, however, has her own way of doing things, and I think she feels like she’s being clever or impressive by figuring out that the caller is Chinese by their accent when in actuality she sounds patronising and ignorant (half the time she actually says “you’re a Chinese, right?”).
It’s almost funny – but not really, because it makes the whole department look pretty assy when the caller is, for example, a British citizen who was born in China, or not actually Chinese or tied to China in any way whatsoever. We’re definitely not an office that’s into hard-and-fast rules and regulations, but I am going to suggest that a standard way of determining nationality that avoids ambiguity, is grammatically correct, and which is unlikely to cause offense to anyone should probably be established.
posted by cilantro at 5:46 AM on August 25, 2010
It’s almost funny – but not really, because it makes the whole department look pretty assy when the caller is, for example, a British citizen who was born in China, or not actually Chinese or tied to China in any way whatsoever. We’re definitely not an office that’s into hard-and-fast rules and regulations, but I am going to suggest that a standard way of determining nationality that avoids ambiguity, is grammatically correct, and which is unlikely to cause offense to anyone should probably be established.
posted by cilantro at 5:46 AM on August 25, 2010
Best answer: I am Danish. I am a Dane. I am from Denmark
I am Spanish. I am a Spaniard. I am from Spain.
I am British. I am a Brit. I am from Great Britain.
I am Welsh. I am a Welshman. I am from Wales.
I am Scottish. I am a Scotsman. I am from Scotland
I am Greek. I am a Greek. I am from Greece.
I am French. I am a Frenchman. I am from France.
I am German. I am a German. I am from Germany
I am American. I am an American. I am from America.
I am Australian. I am an Australian. I am from Australia.
I am Canadian. I am a Canadian. I am from Canada.
I am South African. I am a South African. I am from South Africa.
I am a New Zealander. I am from New Zealand.
I am Japanese. I am Japanese. I am from Japan.
I am Chinese. I am Chinese. I am from China.
I am Taiwanese. I am Taiwanese. I am from Taiwan.
These forms tend to fall in broad categories: European, Colonies, and Asian. (The rest of the world is another story.) European forms are more complicated because they have been in use longer. Colonial forms are straightforward (except for New Zealand-- I don't believe I have ever heard someone say, "I am New Zealander.") Asian forms, however, are complicated by years of discrimination, casual racism, and misunderstanding. In the case of the Chinese, Chinaman-- unlike Scotsman or Frenchman-- has racial overtones and no one uses it anymore. Nothing ever replaced it. "I am a --" has no corresponding word when referring to the Chinese.
I lived among the Japanese for many years and the only time I ever heard anyone say "I am a Japanese" was when their English was very faulty.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:56 AM on August 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
I am Spanish. I am a Spaniard. I am from Spain.
I am British. I am a Brit. I am from Great Britain.
I am Welsh. I am a Welshman. I am from Wales.
I am Scottish. I am a Scotsman. I am from Scotland
I am Greek. I am a Greek. I am from Greece.
I am French. I am a Frenchman. I am from France.
I am German. I am a German. I am from Germany
I am American. I am an American. I am from America.
I am Australian. I am an Australian. I am from Australia.
I am Canadian. I am a Canadian. I am from Canada.
I am South African. I am a South African. I am from South Africa.
I am a New Zealander. I am from New Zealand.
I am Japanese. I am Japanese. I am from Japan.
I am Chinese. I am Chinese. I am from China.
I am Taiwanese. I am Taiwanese. I am from Taiwan.
These forms tend to fall in broad categories: European, Colonies, and Asian. (The rest of the world is another story.) European forms are more complicated because they have been in use longer. Colonial forms are straightforward (except for New Zealand-- I don't believe I have ever heard someone say, "I am New Zealander.") Asian forms, however, are complicated by years of discrimination, casual racism, and misunderstanding. In the case of the Chinese, Chinaman-- unlike Scotsman or Frenchman-- has racial overtones and no one uses it anymore. Nothing ever replaced it. "I am a --" has no corresponding word when referring to the Chinese.
I lived among the Japanese for many years and the only time I ever heard anyone say "I am a Japanese" was when their English was very faulty.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:56 AM on August 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I'm surprised people don't respond to her with "A Chinese what? A Chinese person? A Chinese citizen? Spy? Baby? Proverb?"
Seriously, if a rational argument won't convince her to drop it (and there is one to be had, involving part-of-speech and negative connotations of how words are used; see "a Jew"), then a jar with nickels followed by mockery needs to be implemented and abused.
posted by iamkimiam at 6:00 AM on August 25, 2010
Seriously, if a rational argument won't convince her to drop it (and there is one to be had, involving part-of-speech and negative connotations of how words are used; see "a Jew"), then a jar with nickels followed by mockery needs to be implemented and abused.
posted by iamkimiam at 6:00 AM on August 25, 2010
Slight sidestep, but New Zealanders usually say, "I am a Kiwi," in my experience.
posted by Georgina at 6:09 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Georgina at 6:09 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes, Georgiana, but I was trying to stay away from slang or casual forms such as "I am a Canuck."
I was just running through the various European forms in my head, and they are definitely complicated:
I am Swedish. I am a Swede. I am from Sweden.
I am Belgian (or Waloon, or Flemish.) I am a Belgian. I am from Belgium
I am Polish. I am a Pole. I am from Poland.
I am Icelandic. I am an Icelander. I am from Iceland.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:45 AM on August 25, 2010
I was just running through the various European forms in my head, and they are definitely complicated:
I am Swedish. I am a Swede. I am from Sweden.
I am Belgian (or Waloon, or Flemish.) I am a Belgian. I am from Belgium
I am Polish. I am a Pole. I am from Poland.
I am Icelandic. I am an Icelander. I am from Iceland.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:45 AM on August 25, 2010
I am going to suggest that a standard way of determining nationality that avoids ambiguity, is grammatically correct, and which is unlikely to cause offense to anyone should probably be established
"What's your country of citizenship?"
"What's your country of residence?"
"What's your country of origin?"
Depending on what information you're trying to establish here, the clearest way to do so is almost certainly to ask one (or some combination of two) of these questions.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 6:47 AM on August 25, 2010
"What's your country of citizenship?"
"What's your country of residence?"
"What's your country of origin?"
Depending on what information you're trying to establish here, the clearest way to do so is almost certainly to ask one (or some combination of two) of these questions.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 6:47 AM on August 25, 2010
I teach at a college with a large international population, and I have found that my Chinese students use "a Chinese" in their papers. I generally correct it to say "a Chinese individual" because I like the focus to be on the person vs. the nationality, but it does seem to be a common usage.
posted by bizzyb at 6:52 AM on August 25, 2010
posted by bizzyb at 6:52 AM on August 25, 2010
I am British. I am a Brit. I am from Great Britain.
British people barely ever describe themselves as 'Brits'. Briton, maybe. It's a very US term.
I have seen writing by Chinese people (Xinran, I think) which used 'a Chinese' but I would say 'Are you Chinese'. I know 'Chinaman' is seen as outdated so I would have erred on the side of caution/
.
posted by mippy at 6:59 AM on August 25, 2010
British people barely ever describe themselves as 'Brits'. Briton, maybe. It's a very US term.
I have seen writing by Chinese people (Xinran, I think) which used 'a Chinese' but I would say 'Are you Chinese'. I know 'Chinaman' is seen as outdated so I would have erred on the side of caution/
.
posted by mippy at 6:59 AM on August 25, 2010
I am British. I am a Brit. I am from Great Britain.
No you're not. You're a Briton.
Brit is more informal and would be similar to using Aussie for Australian or Kiwi for New Zealander.
Scot is used over Scotsman.
So, as you say, European forms are more complicated.
posted by i_cola at 7:02 AM on August 25, 2010
No you're not. You're a Briton.
Brit is more informal and would be similar to using Aussie for Australian or Kiwi for New Zealander.
Scot is used over Scotsman.
So, as you say, European forms are more complicated.
posted by i_cola at 7:02 AM on August 25, 2010
I worked for an immigration attorney for a while. "Where were you born?" and "Do you hold status in any other country?" did the job for me.
posted by phunniemee at 7:18 AM on August 25, 2010
posted by phunniemee at 7:18 AM on August 25, 2010
As an aside, I've had Asian friends (Japanese and Korean) who get very offended if somebody automatically assumes they are Chinese. I mean really offended, like asking a German if they're a Nazi kind of offended.
Likewise I have a Chinese friend who gets very upset if somebody thinks she's Japanese. From what I've gathered there is still some hurt feelings about past events (wars, etc.)
I don't know a lot about Asian customs and language, but your coworker could be really offending a lot of people. Maybe you can do the research and find out if I'm right. That would give you a really concrete reason for her to shut up about the "a Chinese" thing. No company wants employees to insult customers.
posted by TooFewShoes at 7:27 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Likewise I have a Chinese friend who gets very upset if somebody thinks she's Japanese. From what I've gathered there is still some hurt feelings about past events (wars, etc.)
I don't know a lot about Asian customs and language, but your coworker could be really offending a lot of people. Maybe you can do the research and find out if I'm right. That would give you a really concrete reason for her to shut up about the "a Chinese" thing. No company wants employees to insult customers.
posted by TooFewShoes at 7:27 AM on August 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
- My co-worker, however, has her own way of doing things, and I think she feels like she’s being clever or impressive by figuring out that the caller is Chinese by their accent when in actuality she sounds patronising and ignorant (half the time she actually says “you’re a Chinese, right?”).
Oh my days. Is this ever a "diplomatic incident" waiting to happen.
I was out drinking once and struck up a conversation with two strangers.
1: Where are you from?
me: England
2: Poland, and you?
1: Catalonia
2: confused face
1. Near Barcelona
2: Oh, cool, you're Spanish!
1: Twenty minute angry diatribe "How would you like it if I called you Russian, or you Welsh..."
And that's in a situation where despite the cultural sensitivities the one place is technically part of the other place, or closely related, however you cut it. Loosely analogous to, perhaps, HK/Taiwan. Open that out to every other Asian accent your inept co-worker merrily assumes must be Chinese... it's only a matter of time before someone is seriously offended by this woman.
posted by Slyfen at 7:38 AM on August 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
Oh my days. Is this ever a "diplomatic incident" waiting to happen.
I was out drinking once and struck up a conversation with two strangers.
1: Where are you from?
me: England
2: Poland, and you?
1: Catalonia
2: confused face
1. Near Barcelona
2: Oh, cool, you're Spanish!
1: Twenty minute angry diatribe "How would you like it if I called you Russian, or you Welsh..."
And that's in a situation where despite the cultural sensitivities the one place is technically part of the other place, or closely related, however you cut it. Loosely analogous to, perhaps, HK/Taiwan. Open that out to every other Asian accent your inept co-worker merrily assumes must be Chinese... it's only a matter of time before someone is seriously offended by this woman.
posted by Slyfen at 7:38 AM on August 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
I like to use the adjective form in all cases, since it modifies the person instead of replacing them with another noun. The person is Korean, not the person is a Korean. The person is American, not the person is an American.
Of course, when I'm going to be insulting anyway, the trend gets reversed. The person is a douchebag, not the person is douchey.
posted by ymendel at 8:19 AM on August 25, 2010
Of course, when I'm going to be insulting anyway, the trend gets reversed. The person is a douchebag, not the person is douchey.
posted by ymendel at 8:19 AM on August 25, 2010
I am British. I am a Brit. I am from Great Britain.
No you're not. You're a Briton.
Brit is more informal and would be similar to using Aussie for Australian or Kiwi for New Zealander.
That's not my experience. As an expatriate Brit (and having worked for 20 years in a British Embassy press office), I have rarely if ever heard Brits refer to themselves as Britons. I would hazard a guess that it sounds too close to "Ancient Britons". We refer to ourselves as Brits to such an extent that it is fast becoming the standard identifying noun. Even in stuffy, official documents, the fully correct version "British nationals" will be used in the lede, but further down in the text the less formal "Brits" will soon be found alongside the uncomfortable "Briton": example.
posted by aqsakal at 8:27 AM on August 25, 2010
No you're not. You're a Briton.
Brit is more informal and would be similar to using Aussie for Australian or Kiwi for New Zealander.
That's not my experience. As an expatriate Brit (and having worked for 20 years in a British Embassy press office), I have rarely if ever heard Brits refer to themselves as Britons. I would hazard a guess that it sounds too close to "Ancient Britons". We refer to ourselves as Brits to such an extent that it is fast becoming the standard identifying noun. Even in stuffy, official documents, the fully correct version "British nationals" will be used in the lede, but further down in the text the less formal "Brits" will soon be found alongside the uncomfortable "Briton": example.
posted by aqsakal at 8:27 AM on August 25, 2010
Just to chime in here: some Asian students learning English (in my experience) say 'a (insert nationality here) 'because they're taught that way to make it simpler. English has so many differing grammar rules it's easier to broadly generalise the 'rules' for differing nouns/adjectives. 'I am a American' = 'I am a Chinese', etc. instead of having them memorise which nationalities need a 'a' to change them from noun to adjective.
On the being called 'a Chinese' part - I've been called that. It doesn't really piss me off so much as I automatically assume the person saying it is a bit of an idiot and then needs to be spoken to in small words to get my point across - someone asking me that sounds... almost condescending, even if the person doesn't mean it to. It also depends on tone: someone saying that to me in the shouty, loud 'ARE YOU A CHINESE' tone will get the stinkeye from me much faster than a genuinely curious 'so are you a Chinese?' tone. Either way, this is the sort of phraseology one could expect from people from an older generation. Most other Chinese people I know generally roll their eyes a bit at this phrasing, but won't say anything so that the person saying it won't lose face. It's kind of rude to correct somebody's English, yanno? If the people you're speaking to in China have good colloquial English, I wouldn't think that they'd be offended - they might think your company's a bit dim, though.
If you want to ask people about their ethnicity, you can ask 'what's your ethnicity' or 'what's your cultural background'. If you're asking about nationality, ask about that. If your co-worker keeps on asking 'are you a Chinese', she's really going to irritate a Taiwanese person, or a Japanese person, or really confuse the heck out of a Chinese-American.
posted by zennish at 8:51 AM on August 25, 2010
On the being called 'a Chinese' part - I've been called that. It doesn't really piss me off so much as I automatically assume the person saying it is a bit of an idiot and then needs to be spoken to in small words to get my point across - someone asking me that sounds... almost condescending, even if the person doesn't mean it to. It also depends on tone: someone saying that to me in the shouty, loud 'ARE YOU A CHINESE' tone will get the stinkeye from me much faster than a genuinely curious 'so are you a Chinese?' tone. Either way, this is the sort of phraseology one could expect from people from an older generation. Most other Chinese people I know generally roll their eyes a bit at this phrasing, but won't say anything so that the person saying it won't lose face. It's kind of rude to correct somebody's English, yanno? If the people you're speaking to in China have good colloquial English, I wouldn't think that they'd be offended - they might think your company's a bit dim, though.
If you want to ask people about their ethnicity, you can ask 'what's your ethnicity' or 'what's your cultural background'. If you're asking about nationality, ask about that. If your co-worker keeps on asking 'are you a Chinese', she's really going to irritate a Taiwanese person, or a Japanese person, or really confuse the heck out of a Chinese-American.
posted by zennish at 8:51 AM on August 25, 2010
So, as others have alluded to:
Many, and maybe nearly all, China-raised Chinese will refer to themselves as "a Chinese."
In contrast, almost no North American-raised Chinese would say that. Rather, they would say "I'm Chinese", or "I'm a Chinese person/guy/girl etc."
I can't speak for Euro/South American/etc. Chinese.
The reason it sounds racist to you is because it is definitely not the standard mode of speech in North America. So, it sounds to your ears, a bit ignorant or uneducated. And as you can see by the opinions on the topic, it kind of is a bit ignorant, but it kind of isn't, as well. Now, it bears a lot of auditory similarity to "a Chinaman", (or "a Jap", or "a Gook", and I think that's another reason that it scratches your ears in such a way.
/I am a North-American born Chinese person.
posted by demagogue at 9:07 AM on August 25, 2010
Many, and maybe nearly all, China-raised Chinese will refer to themselves as "a Chinese."
In contrast, almost no North American-raised Chinese would say that. Rather, they would say "I'm Chinese", or "I'm a Chinese person/guy/girl etc."
I can't speak for Euro/South American/etc. Chinese.
The reason it sounds racist to you is because it is definitely not the standard mode of speech in North America. So, it sounds to your ears, a bit ignorant or uneducated. And as you can see by the opinions on the topic, it kind of is a bit ignorant, but it kind of isn't, as well. Now, it bears a lot of auditory similarity to "a Chinaman", (or "a Jap", or "a Gook", and I think that's another reason that it scratches your ears in such a way.
/I am a North-American born Chinese person.
posted by demagogue at 9:07 AM on August 25, 2010
According to a trusty little book I own on the subject, "Labels for Locals: What to Call People from Abilene to Zimbabwe," it is indeed correct to say 'a Chinese.'
Plural is Chinese, singular is a Chinese.
That being said, it still sounds incredibly awkward to my ear. But I wouldn't go making a case out of it. Let it slide.
posted by fso at 10:32 AM on August 25, 2010
Plural is Chinese, singular is a Chinese.
That being said, it still sounds incredibly awkward to my ear. But I wouldn't go making a case out of it. Let it slide.
posted by fso at 10:32 AM on August 25, 2010
As a Bosnian Muslim, I'm a little bothered when people assume I'm Serbian. I don't go all crazy or anything, but it lacks some sensitivity. Better to ask, what is your nationality?
Many nationalities share the noun and adjective forms. You can say: Are you American? Or you can say: Are you an American?
This does not work with the French. You can say: Are you French? Or you can say something like: Are you a Frenchman? Or: Are you from France? But you can't really say: Are you a French?
The same is true with Chinese. Probably a hundred years ago, you could say the equivalent of "Frenchman" for a Chinese person: Chinaman. But that'd sound pretty racist today.
I don't really care of a China-reared person refers to him- or herself as "a Chinese," because that's basically an error. (I would have made the same mistake when I began learning English, but as a Bosnian, it's not a mistake.). The fact is, as demagogue pointed out, you don't hear native English speakers of Chinese background say it like that.
But frankly, if your cpworkers are so clueless as to be unable to work this put, they're going to offend a lot of people without ever knowing why. Just ask, what is your nationality? Or something like that.
To answer your question, some nationalities exist with one word to describe the adjective and the noun, such as Bosnian. Other nationalities have one word for the adjective and one word for the noun. Other nationalities have a good adjective form (like "French"), but an inadequate noun form. It's just the way it is.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 12:41 PM on August 25, 2010
Many nationalities share the noun and adjective forms. You can say: Are you American? Or you can say: Are you an American?
This does not work with the French. You can say: Are you French? Or you can say something like: Are you a Frenchman? Or: Are you from France? But you can't really say: Are you a French?
The same is true with Chinese. Probably a hundred years ago, you could say the equivalent of "Frenchman" for a Chinese person: Chinaman. But that'd sound pretty racist today.
I don't really care of a China-reared person refers to him- or herself as "a Chinese," because that's basically an error. (I would have made the same mistake when I began learning English, but as a Bosnian, it's not a mistake.). The fact is, as demagogue pointed out, you don't hear native English speakers of Chinese background say it like that.
But frankly, if your cpworkers are so clueless as to be unable to work this put, they're going to offend a lot of people without ever knowing why. Just ask, what is your nationality? Or something like that.
To answer your question, some nationalities exist with one word to describe the adjective and the noun, such as Bosnian. Other nationalities have one word for the adjective and one word for the noun. Other nationalities have a good adjective form (like "French"), but an inadequate noun form. It's just the way it is.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 12:41 PM on August 25, 2010
In my experience, many Chinese people will say "a Chinese", but when it's said by nonChinese people it sounds archaic and horrible. So even if some actual Chinese customers don't mind being identified as "a Chinese", it's worth dropping the usage for the times she's wrong, or overheard. It does sound a lot like a stylistic equivalent from the same era as "Oriental" or "colored".
Also, speaking as someone who is a target for frequent ethnicity-guessing by clever people who think they're sooo worldly, let me say that holy friggin crap does it annoy me. "Ooh, are you Cuban? You sound Cuban!" It makes me absolutely livid and I was glad to read that to you her guessing sounds condescending and ignorant. Not to mention that she's probably wrong sometimes, and there are some people of Asian descent who would be very offended if some random company rep assumed they were Chinese. Her way of phrasing this question is basically a trainwreck, and I salute you for trying to regulate this person's behaviour- there's no way that the very act of guessing isn't annoying and offending some of your customers, no matter how she phrases "Chinese".
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:36 PM on August 25, 2010
Also, speaking as someone who is a target for frequent ethnicity-guessing by clever people who think they're sooo worldly, let me say that holy friggin crap does it annoy me. "Ooh, are you Cuban? You sound Cuban!" It makes me absolutely livid and I was glad to read that to you her guessing sounds condescending and ignorant. Not to mention that she's probably wrong sometimes, and there are some people of Asian descent who would be very offended if some random company rep assumed they were Chinese. Her way of phrasing this question is basically a trainwreck, and I salute you for trying to regulate this person's behaviour- there's no way that the very act of guessing isn't annoying and offending some of your customers, no matter how she phrases "Chinese".
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:36 PM on August 25, 2010
The question "What country are you from?" allows you to let the other person answer, and I bet that 9 times out of ten this will be enough. In this case, though, given the high number of Chinese-connected people you deal with, I imagine that many callers will say "Taiwan" if they're from there, but that perhaps fewer Hong Kong- or Macao-born people would say "China."
But framing the question so that the answers all work - "I'm a Chinese", "I'm Chinese", "I'm from China", etc. - seems like you'd be able to get the answer you need and avoid all this.
posted by mdonley at 12:27 PM on August 28, 2010
But framing the question so that the answers all work - "I'm a Chinese", "I'm Chinese", "I'm from China", etc. - seems like you'd be able to get the answer you need and avoid all this.
posted by mdonley at 12:27 PM on August 28, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Sometimes the adjective can also be a noun, like American, Italian, Russian. Sometimes it can't, like Chinese or French. "A French" just isn't the name for a person. So if you need a formula you're safe with just the adjective form, "Are you ....." rather than "Are you a .....".
I agree that "a Chinese" sounds horrible and racist, and that's reason enough not to say it -- because it sounds horrible and racist. I don't know if there's any deeper underlying explanation; not all words can be used as nouns, that's all.
posted by creasy boy at 5:17 AM on August 25, 2010