Emigration to Australia or Ireland

March 14, 2005 10:10 PM

As an American, how difficult is it to emigrate to either Australia or Ireland?

I'm contemplating a move to either Australia or Ireland. I'm currently living in Japan so I have experience with the finding work, and moving all my crap parts. I've read up on visa requirements for both countries but would like some first hand advice. Are there any small-ish cities where there's tech work to be found? Is finding a place to live typically difficult as a foreigner? I'm leaning towards Australia, mostly because it's closer to where I am now and there's a better chance that there'd be a use for my Japanese language skill, but I've always wanted to live in Ireland. This question is aimed mostly at ex-pats but if any locals want to tell me what's great about where they live that's good too.

posted by mexican to society & culture (23 comments total)

An american mexican in japan wants to move to australia or ireland? What a question.


No, I can't help at all. Out of curiosity, why do you want to move away from Japan?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:55 PM on March 14, 2005

Well, I don't actually live in either of those places, but Ireland is part of the EU so it's probably kind of hard to actually get a job and citizenship there.

If you've got a college degree, I understand it's fairly easy to get a good job in Australia. I'm sure it's also a LOT easier to find employment and a work permit.
posted by borkingchikapa at 11:07 PM on March 14, 2005

I know of at least one American living in Australia because his de-facto partner is an Australian citizen, so that's one avenue available to you.
I live in a smallish city in Australia (Perth, pop. about 1 million) and while I don't know what the market is for tech workers, I do know that finding a place to live isn't difficult nor is it expensive and it's very, very EASY to live a lazy, pampered life in this city. Whether you view that as a good or bad thing is another matter - I'm just about ready to get out of here again.
posted by bunglin jones at 11:23 PM on March 14, 2005

I lived in Dublin for a year as a student. Finding a place to live was easy. It was also easy to find a job, but I was looking for a job that wouldn't notice my lack of work visa, so I can't offer much on finding tech jobs.
posted by HSWilson at 11:34 PM on March 14, 2005 [1 favorite]

Let me give a little more detail. I don't necessarily want to leave Japan, but I do want to leave Tokyo. My girlfriend is not all that interested in living in rural Japan but does have an interest in living in a country where she can learn another language. I'm not interested in going back to the US and would rather go some place where I can use English instead of having to start again from scratch with another new language, so we've kind of compromised on either Australia or Ireland.

I don't have a degree (ain't never cared much for book learnin') but I'm coming up on 10 years of professional experience. The GF has a masters. Chances are by the time we were ready to pack up and go we'd be able to take advantage of some kind of special considerations based on one's spouse so I think as a tag team we've be able to work out visa stuff as long as one of us found a job before moving. Neither of us would be moving with changing nationalities as a goal, so the destination country's citizenship process isn't really a factor we're considering.

bunglin jones, we've had Perth recommended to us as a good place to go in Oz. We've also been warned that it's full of racists (something about a prominent politician beating aboriginals with a stick?). Also, looking at a map Perth seems to be very remote. I'm all for a lazy, pampered life but the idea of being in a geographically isolated city full of racists isn't all that appealing. Do I have the wrong idea about Perth?
posted by mexican at 12:12 AM on March 15, 2005

Perth person here.

The local aboriginal people are treated poorly, pretty much like every other racial minority everywhere. That said, the roving clans of violent drunk aboriginals in the city and city fringe areas aren't doing themselves any favours.

However, this is a very minor part of daily life for most people. Most of us just get on with life as you would in any minor metropolis. We have pretty much everything you could want, or we can get it in. A couple of things we have going for us over the Eastern States are; Low housing prices and a better jobs market.

Sure, the cool high-end jobs are mostly over east, but the basic getting of a job is much easier in Perth as recently illustrated by a back-packing friend of mine.

We are very remote. For most people here that's a major benefit. The Eastern States may say we're three hours and 10 years behind them, but we're not, we just aren't interested in the same hectic life they seem to want.

An American decided to write a book about famous churches around the world. For his first chapter he decided to write about famous Australian cathedrals. So he bought a plane ticket and made the trip to Sydney, Australia, thinking that he would work his way across the country. On his first day he was inside a church taking photographs when he noticed a golden telephone mounted on the wall with a sign that read "$10,000 per call". The American, being intrigued, asked a priest who was strolling by what the telephone was used for. The priest replied that it was a direct line to heaven and that for $10,000 you could talk to God. The American thanked the priest and went along his way. Next stop was in Brisbane. There, at a very large cathedral, he saw the same golden telephone with the same sign under it. He wondered if this was the same kind of telephone he saw in Sydney and he asked a nearby nun what it's purpose was. She told him that it was a direct line to heaven and that for $10,000 he could talk to God. "O.K., thank you", said the American. He then travelled to Melbourne, Adelaide and Darwin and in every church he saw the same golden telephone with the same "10,000 per call" sign under it. Then he went to Perth, and again, there was the same golden telephone, but this time the sign under it read "10 cents per call." The American was surprised so he asked the priest about the sign. "Father, I've travelled all over Australia, and I've seen this same golden telephone in many churches. I'm told that it is a direct line to heaven, but in all the other cities in Australia the price per call was $10,000 per call. Why is it so cheap here?"

The priest smiled and answered, "You're in Perth, now son. It's a local call".
posted by krisjohn at 12:27 AM on March 15, 2005

Interesting that the laid-back west coast of Australia seems to be analogous to the laid-back west coast of America. Something about west coasts, I tell you.

I don't have any direct experience in this area, but I had a friend in high school whose dream was to move to Australia. I remember she found out that you had to have a certain amount of money saved up to get in (not sure how much, but it seemed like a lot at the time). Of course, we were in high school, so everything seemed like a lot at the time.
posted by pikachulolita at 12:41 AM on March 15, 2005

Canberra. Ignore the "nothing around it" comments further down the page - scenic places with lots to do like the south coast, the Snowys, the Southern Highlands etc seem to have escaped these folks' attention. If you really feel deprived and want to see what's in or outside Sydney, drive a couple of hours up the empty freeway and see for yourself.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 1:49 AM on March 15, 2005

I am a Canadian who's lived for a total of about 4 1/2 years in Australia. I love the place, love the people, and I hope, if this whole Korea thing I've been doing for the past few years gets old, to go back.

I spent most of my time in Sydney, a city I love (but I only lived in the downtown area, and was making good money), but also spent a few months each in Canberra and Perth, and shorter periods of time elsewhere. Each region and major city has good things going for it, but Sydney (or possibly Melbourne) is the best bet for making money.

If you're young enough (not sure if this applies to Americans) you can get a working holiday visa, and spend a year there sampling the menu. That's what I did when I first lived there, back in '94.

If you can find someone to hire you (which involves them not being able to find someone local to do the job in question, and scads of paperwork and time to get it through DIMA), you can get a 4-year longterm business visa, which is what I had my second time around. You can use this temporary residency as a springboard while incountry to start applications for permanent residency, which, in retrospect, I kind of wish I had done. The stars didn't align properly, sadly.

My wife, who is Korean, found Sydney, with its diversity and very Asian flavour (large Korean and Japanese and [...] communities) a very pleasant place to live as well, although she'd only lived outside Korea once before, in Japan. She is trilingual, and was able to find a good, high paying job in an upscale duty-free place in the Rocks, near the Opera house. I was working in IT, both times I was there.

Perth is lovely, but has, for all its relative size, a very small-town feel to it. I loved it there, but I was on the company dime, and living pretty high.

Getting permanent residency can be a difficult thing, but if you meet the first-stage 'how many points to I need' requirement, it's not outside the realm of possibility. If I were to do it, cold, without a job upfront to get me onshore, I'd do research to find a reliable immigration consultancy firm, and pay them the bucks to sort it for me. In my experience, jumping through the hoops on your own can be a bit of a nightmare without a professional to guide you through.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:55 AM on March 15, 2005

Okay, Mexican - yes, you're talking about Wilson "Ironbar" Tuckey. Grade-A fuckwit who holds a West Australian seat in Parliament. The racism thing is difficult to answer here. It's true, a lot of people hold very racist views about aborigines here - as they do all over Australia. It might help answer your question to know that I'm dark-skinned (Sri Lankan) and my girlfriend is Anglo-Saxon; we've not experienced any race-based hassles so far regarding our relationship. So - no - the city is not "full of racists".
We are, however, very isolated. If you're a fan of the arts, you're going to miss out on quite a few touring acts and exhibitions because it just costs too much to bring them all the way out here. And the BIG BIG money in most industries is to be made on the east coast.
But the reason people stay in Perth is because the lifestyle is SO laidback. Like I said, though, this lifestyle has had me more or less horizontal for some time now and I miss living in a big city...
posted by bunglin jones at 3:05 AM on March 15, 2005

I'm an American who emigrated to Oz just over three years ago. I came in as a defacto spouse partner (though we recently got married) and I've commented extensively on that process before, so check my posting history if you're interested. At the time I considered doing the "skilled worker" migration as I had more than enough points to enter, but in the end decided against it as A) you have to apply from outside the country; B) it's more expensive; and C) it can take a long time. I've lived in Sydney the whole time and I absolutely love it. I haven't been to Perth yet, but my husband's visited and basically said, "The climate and culture are fantastic and I'd love to live there, but it's too bloody far from *anything*." So make of that what you will.

In terms of tech work, the perception seems to be that it's been picking up slowly over the past few years. I had been working as a web developer when I moved here so I started out doing some contracting work from home. Six months later I got hired by Epson Australia to do work on their corporate sites. It was a cushy gig and I stayed there for 18 months (before leaving to do something entirely different - manage a needlecraft shop). My husband's been working for the same development company for nearly three years now, and they're steadily growing. No matter what the job, expect to take a pretty hefty pay cut. (My husband still makes way less than he did in London before we moved.) That said, the cost of living is relatively low here and I love the lifestyle. It's worth it to us.

Also - I think your Japanese skills would *definitely* put you in a good position here. When I was job hunting I'd see dozens of ads a day for technical positions requiring various Asian languages.

If you're interested in talking to more people, there are a few Yahoo groups for American expats Down Under. Most posts are of the "God, I'd give my right arm for some Hidden Valley Ranch!" variety, but there are still folks in there who've done what you're trying to do.

Good luck!
posted by web-goddess at 3:51 AM on March 15, 2005 [1 favorite]

I'm an American living on the Gold Coast, about 80 Kms South of Brisbane. As much as the Australian government is kvetching about the labour shortage here - I would think it would be reasonably easy to get a visa. I'm married to an Aussie, so I can't offer advice there.

I did return from a week in Perth just two weeks ago - and I love that city. Fantastic parks, bike paths everywhere - very little congestion, great public transport. Great (slightly rustic/feral) markets in Fremantle and Subiaco. The Fremantle markets have little busking spots where traveling minstrels can play for up to 45 minutes (just register at the office).

I can't recommend the Gold Coast. It has beautiful beaches, but it's splitting at the seams with the migration from other cities over the past 3 years. Traffic is terrible - cost of living is high. I'm getting itchy feet just thinking about it.
posted by Dag Maggot at 4:02 AM on March 15, 2005

stavrosthewonderchicken has it pretty much spot-on, except that, along with the big money available in Sydney and Melbourne comes ridiculous living costs. Don't rule out Brisbane if you are looking for tech jobs and don't be fooled by the seemingly lower salaries - there is a good reason why 1,000 people move from Victoria to Queensland every month.

Unlike Dag Maggot, I would highly recommend the Gold Coast if you want a relaxed, beachy lifestyle - traffic is way lighter than almost any other city I have been to (apart from Christmas and Indy week, when it is a complete and utter fucking nightmare). I live on the Gold Coast (have done so for over 25 years) and, having travelled a bit throughout Australia and Asia, would not choose to live anywhere else.

The Gold Coast is a bit short of well-paying work, but you can commute to Brisbane from the northern part of the Gold Coast via train without any hassle. I work in Brisbane and find the commute surprisingly easy.

As stavrosthewonderchicken says, start by finding a good immigration consultant as your first step - every action you take can have a bearing on the final decision by DIMIA and it can make a huge difference to the ease (or otherwise) of gaining permanent residency.

On a positive (for you) note, Australia is facing a massive skill shortage over the next 20+ years, so the Government is expected to loosen the conditions for skilled migration quite a bit in the near future. You can get any skills or qualifications you have recognised here without too much hassle, particularly if you make sure you have plenty of evidence, which is easier to get before you come here. E-mail me if you want to know more about this aspect, as it is closely related to my work.

If a relaxed lifestyle without being bored to tears is important to you, the Gold Coast is perfect. If you want a fast-paced life and don't mind freezing your arse off in winter, go for Sydney or Melbourne. If you want to live in the world's biggest country town, go for Perth. Otherwise, there is everything in between somewhere here and you can have fun travelling around and finding which is for you.

On the other hand, New Zealand is lovely (if a touch cold) and I believe that their immigration system is much easier to navigate.
posted by dg at 5:18 AM on March 15, 2005

Irish person here, who works in HR, and who has dealt with a number of foreign nationals coming to work in an Irish based multi national tech company.

1] None of the people in my company (russian/indian/american) who got visas to work in Ireland ever had any complaints, and the visa process went very smoothly, especially for US applicants.

2] Ireland has a very strong tech economy, with very many large multinationals based here. The job market in the tech area is particulary buoyant at the moment - take a look at www.irishjobs.ie for a sample. Your having japanese as a language will stand you in very good stead with a lot of companies.

3] You wont have any problem getting a place to live in, whether you live in Dublin, or the smaller cities of Galway or Cork. You can get a good overview of the price of homes/apartments from www.daft.ie or www.myhomes.ie

4] The cost of living in Ireland is a factor you'll need to consider, as far as i know its considerably more expensive than Australia. Our weather is pretty crappy too.

If you want any other info, or specific advice about types of visas etc you could email me if you like. Also, i can give you some salary survey information for your specific industry/job type if you want it, just drop me a mail.
posted by kev23f at 5:41 AM on March 15, 2005

I'm an American who first looked into emigrating to Australia in 1995. Couldn't get in through the skills method, as the focus then was pretty strict. However, they change the requirements and target professions as the economy changes, so look into that. I ended up just going on a 6-month tourist visa and travelled back and forth between Australia and the US for a couple of years, renewing the visa each time. I was employed by a US company that allowed me to work from home, so that was easier. After two years of shacking up with the SO, we applied for a "de facto" visa and I continued the process until receiving permanent residency. Left Australia recently to come back to the US (and go through the immigration process in reverse for the SO - what joy!).

At any rate, I lived in Sydney for a total of seven years and absolutely loved it. The cost of living is comparable to living in San Francisco, in my opinion, except the rental market is a bit cheaper in Oz. The lifestyle is very laid back for the most part and salaries are pretty generous. I've visited most of the east coast and think that Sydney is the best for the type of lifestyle I lived, but there are certainly a lot more places available that are "slower" and might suit you.

My biggest suggestion would be for you to try and go visit on a tourist visa for at least a month. You can get a pretty good idea of what life will be like in that time, including how you and the GF are treated. BTW, Melbourne has a large Asian population that might suit the language skills. It's a little more "arty" than Sydney. No help on Ireland for you.

Good luck. Email is in the profile - feel free to contact me if you like.
posted by cyniczny at 6:11 AM on March 15, 2005

Okay I am an American living in Cork, Ireland right now and let me tell you moving here is no picnic. Basically, if you want to live and work in Ireland you have to be 1.) offered a contact to work, or 2.) you have to be "highly skilled" (be a Doctor) or 3.) Have immediate family (Mom, Dad, Grandma, ect.) as citizens here or be married to an Irish person. If you are offered a contact you'll only be permitted to stay in Ireland the length of the contract. However, after 5 years you can apply for citizenship. The other route is to be a student (like myself) but that doesn't sound like an option for you, and your time as a student will not count towards the 5 year application requirement.

If I were you, I would come into Ireland as a visitor, this will give you three months to find work. Once you have found work, you must get a contract from that employer and take that to immigration. Then your U.S. Passport will be stamped and you will be given a G.N.I.B. card (Garda National Immigration Bureau) then you will have to go down to Social Services with your passport and proof of address (lease or bank statement) and get a P.P.S.N. (Personal Public Service Number) which is basically a social security number. Then after all that you can work.

Basically, the people here are very uptight about foreigners "taking" Irish jobs. Funny, because they spent the better part of the 20th century going to the U.S., and the U.K. for work. LOL. Also if the Irish economy is to keep progressing positively it will need 40,000 new immigrant workers each year for 10 years; but that doesn't mean they are making it easy.

However, the people are nice once they get to know you and you'll never find more loyal friends. The place is gorgeous, so much so that I am doing my hardest to stay here. There are tons of Tech jobs in Cork and in Dublin. I would go to http://ukjobs.ostg.com/. Good luck. Email me at livewireconfusion at hotmail dot com if you have anymore questions.
posted by Livewire Confusion at 6:52 AM on March 15, 2005

Livewire makes some good points, but i wouldn't necessarily agree with the bit about Irish people being uptight about foreigners "taking" irish jobs, my experience has largely been the opposite, except for the occasional ignorant taxi driver.
Anyway, good luck wherever you go.
posted by kev23f at 7:25 AM on March 15, 2005

I was more speaking about the government's position toward foreigners than that of the general people; but xenophobia is a problem in Ireland.

Last year the people overwhelmingly voted in favor of a racist law that basically gave no rights to foreign children born in Ireland and subsequently none to their parents.

So if I were from a non EU nation and my girlfriend or wife were from a non EU nation and we had a child in Ireland NONE of us would have rights to citizenship and could be deported if we did not meet immigration criteria (generalizing here but they would need to be a Student, Doctor, or their parents or grandparents being Irish born). People, mainly Nigerians and their children are being deported daily in a very persecutory manner by the Garda to nations where they face abuse, lack of civil rights and in some cases DEATH. So to say that the people aren't xenophobic is a incorrect.

In my two years living here I have found that if you are the "right" skin color you don't have a problem but if you are from Asia or Africa you are seen as "those people taking OUR jobs". I also hear allot of "those people are raping OUR social welfare system". The problem is "asylum seekers" aren't able to legally work in most cases so they have to get welfare to survive.

Whenever I meet a new person in Ireland they ask these questions 1.) How long have you been here? 2.) When are you going back? They want to find out if you have any family over here and mainly WHY you're here.

In my personal experience I was not allowed to legally work until I became a student, just wanting to live here and work was not good enough. It also wasn't good enough that I am of Irish decent and that my mother had married an Irish man a couple of years ago. So to say that you could just come over here and work is not true either you have to be "highly skilled". It's hypocritical because you can' t go to Boston, for example, without seeing many Irish born people working in unskilled jobs. So unless you meet any of the above criteria don't expect to be able to legally work.

So if these rules and limitations exist then how is Ireland not bias?
posted by Livewire Confusion at 8:17 AM on March 15, 2005

sorry about the gramar mistakes, I wrote it really quick. LOL
posted by Livewire Confusion at 8:19 AM on March 15, 2005

Hi Livewire Confusion, i'm a big hurry here too, and this probably isnt the place to carry on this argument, i'd be happy to email you a longer response later on this evening.

Very briefly though - the governments position towards foreign nationals is exactly the same as that of all the other EU nations, which is what the country voted for last year. I personally disagreed with it, for some of the reasons you cite above, but the point remains, its in line with the whole of Europe and is not exceptionally different in this regard. Furthermore, the way the irish government treats those who are deemed to be illegal immigrants is an absolute cake walk compared to how other countries treat theirs, recent high profile cases of institutionalised abuse of immigrants in the U.K, and other cases in the U.S in particular spring to mind.

In terms of your point regarding the xenophobia of the Irish people themselves (as opposed to the govt policies), i have to say i'm sincerely sorry that that has been your experience, and if it was the general attitude of the irish population i'd be disappointed and more than a little ashamed. I honestly believe that the Irish people in general are a fairly welcoming people. We mightn't be the land of a thousand welcomes anymore, but then again, who is?

Sorry to the original poster for the derail,
Slán abhaile go léir.
posted by kev23f at 9:05 AM on March 15, 2005

The book "Live and Work in Australia and New Zealand" has lots of information about, well, living and working. It's got lots of information about living conditions (costs of housing, food costs, utilities), as well as a detailed section on getting visas. It's geared toward UK citizens, but it's still useful for Americans. You can find it at Amazon.com.
posted by luneray at 12:11 PM on March 15, 2005

Thanks to everyone for the great answers! Canberra looks good (small, proximity to big city and snowy mountains) but other places are still in the running. kev23f make Ireland look good by simply by reminding me how awesome many Irish people are, but Oz is still looking like it would be the most practical.

I'm approaching this move as a long-term thing. I took a similar approach when I moved to Japan (3 years planning) and things worked out pretty well. This thread has given me a good deal of new stuff to think about and good places to start seriously considering my next place of residence.

Thanks again!
posted by mexican at 6:42 PM on March 15, 2005

Aftercomment: I found Canberra to be spectacularly boring. Granted, I was working 12 hour days, but still. Quite probably my least favorite place in all of Australia. For what it's worth.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:28 PM on March 15, 2005