Are my bar end shifter and derailler fighting each other?
August 20, 2010 9:24 PM Subscribe
Are my bar end shifter and dura-ace rear derailler fighting? Bike question on indexed drivetrain parts lies herein.
I have a 9speed bike.
That is to say, a 9 speed SRAM cassette, a Shimano Ultegra 10spd rear derailler, and a Sturney Archer 9spd bar end shifter.
I'm wondering if the indexes aren't matching. Why? Because I trust Sheldon of course. But also because no matter how much fiddling I do with my rear derailler and shifter, I'm always having problems staying in gear. It's either 4, 5, and 6 that chug and slip between gears (usually to a lower gear) or 6, 7, and 8. Always under load, too. Rarely ever when on a stand.
The bike was originally supposed to come with a 105 9spd shifter that probably matched the indexing ideally.
The guy who sold me the bike didn't have any 105's so he gave me the Ultegra same price as the build kid, so hey? Why not. Neither he nor my occassional REI bike mech says it should be a problem - But why the hell am I slipping gears so much?
I have a 9speed bike.
That is to say, a 9 speed SRAM cassette, a Shimano Ultegra 10spd rear derailler, and a Sturney Archer 9spd bar end shifter.
I'm wondering if the indexes aren't matching. Why? Because I trust Sheldon of course. But also because no matter how much fiddling I do with my rear derailler and shifter, I'm always having problems staying in gear. It's either 4, 5, and 6 that chug and slip between gears (usually to a lower gear) or 6, 7, and 8. Always under load, too. Rarely ever when on a stand.
The bike was originally supposed to come with a 105 9spd shifter that probably matched the indexing ideally.
The guy who sold me the bike didn't have any 105's so he gave me the Ultegra same price as the build kid, so hey? Why not. Neither he nor my occassional REI bike mech says it should be a problem - But why the hell am I slipping gears so much?
I don't understand why these things should be expected to work together... can you turn off the indexing on the shifter like you used to be able to on the Shimano shifters?
posted by klanawa at 10:28 PM on August 20, 2010
posted by klanawa at 10:28 PM on August 20, 2010
You wouldn't think so, but the spacing between 9 and 10 speed systems is pretty different.. A 10 speed derailleur makes much narrower shifts than a 9 speed, to accommodate the the extra cog in the cassette. It's just enough of a difference to make your chain pop off at the most inopportune times. The other issue is a 9 speed chain will be a bit thicker than a 10 speed chain. So if you're running a 9 speed chain, it's going to skip in the derailleur, and if you're running a 10 speed chain it's going to skip in the cassette.
In my experience, no amount of fiddling and adjusting will get the cassette and rear derailleur behaving in a satisfactory way. You're going to drop your chain here and there, because of the spacing differences. The easiest fix is to switch to either switch the derailleur or the cassette so both components have the same number of gears.
The 9 speed Sturmey Archer up front is also going to give you a bit of grief. Since it's a 9 speed, the gaps between where the shifter yanks the derailleur are going to be slightly wider than they would with a 10 speed shifter. This will make the derailleur sloppy, because the shift points don't match.
If you want reliable, hassle free shifting you are going to match the components.. It stinks, but nice bike components, like the ones you're dealing with have very tight tolerances. The few mm of chain/spacing/indexing between 9 and 10 speed systems is enough to throw everything out of whack. As I mentioned above, it's possible to get something up and running with this combo of parts, but it will always be troublesome in the form of sloppy/missed shifts and dropped chains.
All hail Sheldon Brown!
posted by EvilPRGuy at 10:34 PM on August 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
In my experience, no amount of fiddling and adjusting will get the cassette and rear derailleur behaving in a satisfactory way. You're going to drop your chain here and there, because of the spacing differences. The easiest fix is to switch to either switch the derailleur or the cassette so both components have the same number of gears.
The 9 speed Sturmey Archer up front is also going to give you a bit of grief. Since it's a 9 speed, the gaps between where the shifter yanks the derailleur are going to be slightly wider than they would with a 10 speed shifter. This will make the derailleur sloppy, because the shift points don't match.
If you want reliable, hassle free shifting you are going to match the components.. It stinks, but nice bike components, like the ones you're dealing with have very tight tolerances. The few mm of chain/spacing/indexing between 9 and 10 speed systems is enough to throw everything out of whack. As I mentioned above, it's possible to get something up and running with this combo of parts, but it will always be troublesome in the form of sloppy/missed shifts and dropped chains.
All hail Sheldon Brown!
posted by EvilPRGuy at 10:34 PM on August 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Shimano 9 speed bar end shifters cost $60 per pair new, less than half that used. Why are we even having this conversation? Go buy yourself the real thing already.
posted by randomstriker at 10:35 PM on August 20, 2010
posted by randomstriker at 10:35 PM on August 20, 2010
A little more than $60 ($85) w/o shipping:
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/SL311A03-Shimano+Sl-Bs77+9-Speed+Bar+End+Shifters.aspx?sc=FRGL
A cheaper solution would to get most any shimano downtube shifters and just use the friction setting. You may be able to find them in the parts bin for very cheap. The 10 speed derailer is also a little iffy with the 9 speed cassette - you may have to play with the limit screws... it should be doable, though. SRAM cassettes and Shimano derailers and shifters are compatible, but SRAM shifters and Shimano derailers are not (and vice-versa)
I'm also surprised to here of a 9 speed sturmey shifter.
posted by alex_skazat at 12:39 AM on August 21, 2010
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/SL311A03-Shimano+Sl-Bs77+9-Speed+Bar+End+Shifters.aspx?sc=FRGL
A cheaper solution would to get most any shimano downtube shifters and just use the friction setting. You may be able to find them in the parts bin for very cheap. The 10 speed derailer is also a little iffy with the 9 speed cassette - you may have to play with the limit screws... it should be doable, though. SRAM cassettes and Shimano derailers and shifters are compatible, but SRAM shifters and Shimano derailers are not (and vice-versa)
I'm also surprised to here of a 9 speed sturmey shifter.
posted by alex_skazat at 12:39 AM on August 21, 2010
The simple answer is that the combination just doesn't work. I think it unlikely that the S/A shifter was ever intended for the combination you are using it for. The obvious solution would be to get a Shimano 9-speed shifter as suggested up-thread.
But there are other approaches...
If you look at the attachment point of the cable to the rear deraileur, you will usually see a little stamped groove that the cable sits in as you tighten the binder bolt. *sometimes* you can cure sliht mis-matches in the cable uptake ratio by moving the cable to the *other* side of the binder bolt, that is the side without the little groove. It alters the geometry of the pull slightly and can, in some circumstances, get you back within factory tolerances for the cluster. No guarantees, but it'll cost you nothing but patience to try it.
posted by tim_in_oz at 2:07 AM on August 21, 2010
But there are other approaches...
If you look at the attachment point of the cable to the rear deraileur, you will usually see a little stamped groove that the cable sits in as you tighten the binder bolt. *sometimes* you can cure sliht mis-matches in the cable uptake ratio by moving the cable to the *other* side of the binder bolt, that is the side without the little groove. It alters the geometry of the pull slightly and can, in some circumstances, get you back within factory tolerances for the cluster. No guarantees, but it'll cost you nothing but patience to try it.
posted by tim_in_oz at 2:07 AM on August 21, 2010
If these parts are used and new to you, it could also be a worn/dirty chain or a worn cassette.
I tend not to mix brands of derailleurs and shifters. Unlike EvilPRGuy, I don't believe that a 10 speed derailleur will pull differently from a 9 speed. I run 10 speed Ultegra brifters on a "9 speed" Ultegra rear derailleur and an ancient RSX triple front derailleur, and it shifts perfectly.
posted by advicepig at 6:33 AM on August 21, 2010
I tend not to mix brands of derailleurs and shifters. Unlike EvilPRGuy, I don't believe that a 10 speed derailleur will pull differently from a 9 speed. I run 10 speed Ultegra brifters on a "9 speed" Ultegra rear derailleur and an ancient RSX triple front derailleur, and it shifts perfectly.
posted by advicepig at 6:33 AM on August 21, 2010
I've never heard of such a thing as a production Sturmey-Archer 9spd indexed barend shifter. I suspect it's either something else entirely, or some kind of kludge.
The indexing issue when mismatching parts is exacerbated by the fact that Shimano 9spd (and other modern shifting systems) have non-linear cable pull. Bicycle Quarterly master-geek Alex Wetmore set up a rig to do some measurements for his project of converting a travel agent to translate between the Sram i9 twist shifter and a Shimano barcon. You can see in his chart that though there is a nice 2.5mm "average" pull, the individual pull between the gears varies, especially in the 3-4 shift and the 7-8 shift. Presumably in your case the cable tension that works well for one of those gaps does not satisfy the other.
posted by lantius at 2:15 AM on August 22, 2010
The indexing issue when mismatching parts is exacerbated by the fact that Shimano 9spd (and other modern shifting systems) have non-linear cable pull. Bicycle Quarterly master-geek Alex Wetmore set up a rig to do some measurements for his project of converting a travel agent to translate between the Sram i9 twist shifter and a Shimano barcon. You can see in his chart that though there is a nice 2.5mm "average" pull, the individual pull between the gears varies, especially in the 3-4 shift and the 7-8 shift. Presumably in your case the cable tension that works well for one of those gaps does not satisfy the other.
posted by lantius at 2:15 AM on August 22, 2010
*Derailers don't have "speeds".* They have a range of possible motion, and that is it. All of the indexing is done by the shifter. It is totally possible to use a 10-speed derailer with a 9-speed or 8-speed cassette. Don't believe me? Read this: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html
Your problem is that your shifter is made to operate a Sturmey Archer hub, and you really need to be operating a Shimano derailer. Your shifter is not pulling the correct amount of cable each time. Lantius, who answered the question above me, is correct.
I have no idea how the heck you ended up with a Sturmey Archer shifter on a bike without a Sturmey Archer hub. It makes no sense to build a bike like that.
You need a 9-speed indexed Shimano shifter to go with your Shimano derailer. SRAM cassettes have the same sprocket spacing as Shimano cassettes, so your cassette should work with your system.
posted by twblalock at 7:16 AM on August 22, 2010
Your problem is that your shifter is made to operate a Sturmey Archer hub, and you really need to be operating a Shimano derailer. Your shifter is not pulling the correct amount of cable each time. Lantius, who answered the question above me, is correct.
I have no idea how the heck you ended up with a Sturmey Archer shifter on a bike without a Sturmey Archer hub. It makes no sense to build a bike like that.
You need a 9-speed indexed Shimano shifter to go with your Shimano derailer. SRAM cassettes have the same sprocket spacing as Shimano cassettes, so your cassette should work with your system.
posted by twblalock at 7:16 AM on August 22, 2010
I forgot to mention: Sturmey Archer bar end shifters do exist. I've seen them for sale. They were manufactured due to demand by customers who were building bikes with Sturmey Archer hubs and drop bars. I've only seen them in 3-speed form; I have never seen a 9-speed model.
posted by twblalock at 7:20 AM on August 22, 2010
posted by twblalock at 7:20 AM on August 22, 2010
Response by poster: All components are brand new. They came as a package set but were intended to include a Shimano 105 9spd derailler.
Because the company who produces the bike frame and configured the kit was out of the 105 deraillers, the offered up the ultegra for the same price. The ultegra, upon research, is intended to work with a 10spd cassette.
Here's the bike and kit: http://www.traitorcycles.com/Bikes_Ruben.cfm
The only thing different is the Ultegra 10spd derailler and fatter tires.
I've never dropped the chain. It's not come off once. It just rubs quite a bit under certain loads and will spontaneously upshift I have a feeling this is because the indexing of the 9spd S/A shifter is off in relation to the derailler and it is causing the derailler to always be pulling more to one side and then when the chain rubs up against the gear teeth ramps, it just ultimately picks it up and then forces the derailler into a slightly different position and my shifter clicks over.
It looks like I just need a new bar end shifter.
posted by brandoniain at 8:58 AM on August 22, 2010
Because the company who produces the bike frame and configured the kit was out of the 105 deraillers, the offered up the ultegra for the same price. The ultegra, upon research, is intended to work with a 10spd cassette.
Here's the bike and kit: http://www.traitorcycles.com/Bikes_Ruben.cfm
The only thing different is the Ultegra 10spd derailler and fatter tires.
I've never dropped the chain. It's not come off once. It just rubs quite a bit under certain loads and will spontaneously upshift I have a feeling this is because the indexing of the 9spd S/A shifter is off in relation to the derailler and it is causing the derailler to always be pulling more to one side and then when the chain rubs up against the gear teeth ramps, it just ultimately picks it up and then forces the derailler into a slightly different position and my shifter clicks over.
It looks like I just need a new bar end shifter.
posted by brandoniain at 8:58 AM on August 22, 2010
You really should try to get a new shifter for free. They never should have sold you that one in the first place.
posted by twblalock at 9:41 AM on August 22, 2010
posted by twblalock at 9:41 AM on August 22, 2010
Definitely contact the company. Not only does a 9-speed Sturmey Archer bar end shifter make no sense on this bike, but Sturmey Archer doesn't make a 9-speed bar end shifter (they don't make anything 9-speed). Who knows what the shifter is on your bike, but you do know that it doesn't work properly. This really should be their problem to fix, not yours.
posted by ssg at 1:51 PM on August 22, 2010
posted by ssg at 1:51 PM on August 22, 2010
twblalock and lantius have got it. Other than Shimano's very early indexing experiments in the 80's, derailleurs are dumb with respect to speeds. It's the shifter. I'd consider your upgrade to Ultegra a bonus and use that to buy a good shimano 9-spd shifter.
posted by werkzeuger at 2:29 PM on August 22, 2010
posted by werkzeuger at 2:29 PM on August 22, 2010
Maybe this will help...
Shimano rear dérailleur adjustment fundamental = the rear dérailleur's upper pulley has a very subtle amount of lateral play along it's axis. This is intentional and allows the drive train to grab the chain and help transition from cog to cog once rider input (cable tension) is established.
As per Shimano's documentation included with their dérailleurs, try making sure the following adjustment is made....
While completely relaxed (no cable tension), the upper pulley limit ("H" adjustment screw) should be adjusted just a tad outboard (away from the center of the bike) of the smallest cog.
Most mechanics simply line the center of the pulley's teeth up with the center of the smallest cog's teeth without ever making this crucial adjustment. Trust me, if you don't knock that pulley out a smidgen, it throws the whole indexing system off.
Best done with the chain removed, eyeballing the two gears from the rear of the bike.
Read stroke adjustment and cable securing items 1 and 3 from this pdf to see what I mean.
posted by No Shmoobles at 3:15 PM on August 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Shimano rear dérailleur adjustment fundamental = the rear dérailleur's upper pulley has a very subtle amount of lateral play along it's axis. This is intentional and allows the drive train to grab the chain and help transition from cog to cog once rider input (cable tension) is established.
As per Shimano's documentation included with their dérailleurs, try making sure the following adjustment is made....
While completely relaxed (no cable tension), the upper pulley limit ("H" adjustment screw) should be adjusted just a tad outboard (away from the center of the bike) of the smallest cog.
Most mechanics simply line the center of the pulley's teeth up with the center of the smallest cog's teeth without ever making this crucial adjustment. Trust me, if you don't knock that pulley out a smidgen, it throws the whole indexing system off.
Best done with the chain removed, eyeballing the two gears from the rear of the bike.
Read stroke adjustment and cable securing items 1 and 3 from this pdf to see what I mean.
posted by No Shmoobles at 3:15 PM on August 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
This sounds like something you already know, but generally you can't mix brands with the derailleur and shift lever since they use different cable pull ratios. You need a Shimano lever for your Shimano derailleur.
posted by fearofcorners at 10:27 PM on August 20, 2010