Transitioning from a Citronella Collar
March 13, 2005 7:09 PM Subscribe
I have a dog who loves to bark at one household member. Nobody knows why. I bought her a citronella collar and this has helped greatly. But now she barks to her hearts content any time she's not wearing it. How do I train her to not bark even when she's not wearing the collar?
So the backstory: Starting about 5 minutes after we first brought her into the house, after adopting her at the humane society, she barked at one member of the household. She has barked at him ever since. If he's sitting still, that's fine, but anytime he walks from one room to another, she runs behind him barking.
The fur along her spine stands straight up. She always seems to want him to pet her -- she sidles up to him when he's sitting for him to pet her. But if he turns his head and look at her, she hides.
Since this began the instant she came into the house, it was not caused by his doing anything to her. He has tried bribing her, betting her, etc. etc. and she's just not interested in being his friend.
Fine, they don't have to be best friends, but the barking everytime he moves was driving us all bonkers and attemts at standard behavious modification techniques had no effect at all. So I bought her a citronella collar. This actually worked quite well.
However, now a few months later, she knows that it's the collar that sprays her. So when she's not wearing the collar she barks everytime he moves. When she is wearing the collar, and he moves, she seems to do a little calculus and decide that a few barks are worth the spray. So she barks a couple of times, clearly knowing she'll be sprayed. It's barking at him particulary that's worth it -- if someone rings the doorbell while she's wearing the collar, she doesn't bark.
So my questions are 2: First how do I train her to not bark even when she's not wearing the collar. I was thinking something like a clicker whenever the collar sprays, but since she barks loudly, she wouldn't even hear it. Any other ideas.
2) I would like to refill the collar with water instead of citronella. (she hates water, and the smell of citronella irritates the rest of us). Can I do this? How?
So the backstory: Starting about 5 minutes after we first brought her into the house, after adopting her at the humane society, she barked at one member of the household. She has barked at him ever since. If he's sitting still, that's fine, but anytime he walks from one room to another, she runs behind him barking.
The fur along her spine stands straight up. She always seems to want him to pet her -- she sidles up to him when he's sitting for him to pet her. But if he turns his head and look at her, she hides.
Since this began the instant she came into the house, it was not caused by his doing anything to her. He has tried bribing her, betting her, etc. etc. and she's just not interested in being his friend.
Fine, they don't have to be best friends, but the barking everytime he moves was driving us all bonkers and attemts at standard behavious modification techniques had no effect at all. So I bought her a citronella collar. This actually worked quite well.
However, now a few months later, she knows that it's the collar that sprays her. So when she's not wearing the collar she barks everytime he moves. When she is wearing the collar, and he moves, she seems to do a little calculus and decide that a few barks are worth the spray. So she barks a couple of times, clearly knowing she'll be sprayed. It's barking at him particulary that's worth it -- if someone rings the doorbell while she's wearing the collar, she doesn't bark.
So my questions are 2: First how do I train her to not bark even when she's not wearing the collar. I was thinking something like a clicker whenever the collar sprays, but since she barks loudly, she wouldn't even hear it. Any other ideas.
2) I would like to refill the collar with water instead of citronella. (she hates water, and the smell of citronella irritates the rest of us). Can I do this? How?
Is he the only man in your household? Is it possible your dog is scared of men?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:25 PM on March 13, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:25 PM on March 13, 2005 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: It is the only man, but she's generally ok with men who vist or men she encounters while she's out.
posted by duck at 7:33 PM on March 13, 2005
posted by duck at 7:33 PM on March 13, 2005
attemts at standard behavious modification techniques had no effect at all
Can you give more details about those attempts? What did you do, and was a professional involved? How long did you try each technique? How consistently was it applied? How did she respond? Maybe there's a clue in there somewhere that can help us point you in a fresh direction.
Also, have you discussed this problem with your vet? S/he can probably recommend a good behavioral specialist. And if that fails, for animals with behavioral disorders there is sometimes a med that can be prescribed as a last resort.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 7:59 PM on March 13, 2005
Can you give more details about those attempts? What did you do, and was a professional involved? How long did you try each technique? How consistently was it applied? How did she respond? Maybe there's a clue in there somewhere that can help us point you in a fresh direction.
Also, have you discussed this problem with your vet? S/he can probably recommend a good behavioral specialist. And if that fails, for animals with behavioral disorders there is sometimes a med that can be prescribed as a last resort.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 7:59 PM on March 13, 2005
Response by poster: Things tried, each fairly consistently for a couple of weeks:
A) Not really behavioral modification, but bribery. Every chance he got, the barkee would pet her or offer her treats. Honestly this just seemed to stress her further. It upset her when she turned around to pet her (as she walked behind him barking) and approaching him to receive a treat was something she would do very reluctantly.
B) Saying "no" and having her go lie down when she barked (someone other than the barkee doing this). Praising her lavishly whenever she didn't bark (generally if she didn't bark it's because someone was preventing her from doing so...holding her to prevent her from chasing or blocking her path so she can't chase).
C) B. accompanied by gently holding her snout (not so hard that she couldn't bark if she wanted to, just so it would be mildly uncomfortable and maybe she'd get the message that we didn't want her barking).
D) We tried the "fill a can with coins and shake it when she barks" the idea is supposed to be that the noise will distract her so she'll stop barking for a second and then we can praise her etc. The thing is, it never seemed to distract her. Actually, it's not even clear she heard it she was so engrossed in her barking.
Also, I should add that she only does this if someone else is home. When he is the only one home, the dog hides in a bedroom that he doesn't enter.
The vet has basically suggested the sort of thing we've already done.
Also, I should add that with just about everyone else, she's a maddeningly sweet, affectionate and playful dog. Always demanding to be petted or played with. She loves to snuggle and lick.
posted by duck at 8:17 PM on March 13, 2005
A) Not really behavioral modification, but bribery. Every chance he got, the barkee would pet her or offer her treats. Honestly this just seemed to stress her further. It upset her when she turned around to pet her (as she walked behind him barking) and approaching him to receive a treat was something she would do very reluctantly.
B) Saying "no" and having her go lie down when she barked (someone other than the barkee doing this). Praising her lavishly whenever she didn't bark (generally if she didn't bark it's because someone was preventing her from doing so...holding her to prevent her from chasing or blocking her path so she can't chase).
C) B. accompanied by gently holding her snout (not so hard that she couldn't bark if she wanted to, just so it would be mildly uncomfortable and maybe she'd get the message that we didn't want her barking).
D) We tried the "fill a can with coins and shake it when she barks" the idea is supposed to be that the noise will distract her so she'll stop barking for a second and then we can praise her etc. The thing is, it never seemed to distract her. Actually, it's not even clear she heard it she was so engrossed in her barking.
Also, I should add that she only does this if someone else is home. When he is the only one home, the dog hides in a bedroom that he doesn't enter.
The vet has basically suggested the sort of thing we've already done.
Also, I should add that with just about everyone else, she's a maddeningly sweet, affectionate and playful dog. Always demanding to be petted or played with. She loves to snuggle and lick.
posted by duck at 8:17 PM on March 13, 2005
Response by poster: oh...and in terms of her response to each one, anything that prevented her from chasing and barking and she behaves like she's completely desperate to get away so she can go bark. So she squirms around and tries to duck between legs etc. Sometimes she would even calm down for a few minutes and then run off to bark the second we thought she'd gotten past it.
Oh...and with the citronella collar, for the first several weeks, each time he got up and moved around she didn't bark we heaped praise and treats on her. Now that I think about it, maybe we should do some more of that again.
Reactions to the can shaking idea and bribery already described.
posted by duck at 8:24 PM on March 13, 2005
Oh...and with the citronella collar, for the first several weeks, each time he got up and moved around she didn't bark we heaped praise and treats on her. Now that I think about it, maybe we should do some more of that again.
Reactions to the can shaking idea and bribery already described.
posted by duck at 8:24 PM on March 13, 2005
Has the person involved--the "victim"--tried completely ignoring the dog?
posted by interrobang at 8:46 PM on March 13, 2005
posted by interrobang at 8:46 PM on March 13, 2005
Best answer: The problem is not the citronella collar OR the barking, in my estimation (and I have a reactive dog like this so I have some idea of what you're dealing with), the problem is fear. Here is what I would do:
1) The man the dog barks at has to completely ignore her for the time being. No bribes, no looking at her, no talking to her, no touching her, to him she does not exist. He has to fade into the woodwork as far as she is concerned for now. He should try to stay away from her except when you are working on this problem in a controlled situation (via classical conditioning), she should not have free run of the house when he is home, and she should be removed from the room when he is there. The more you keep them together when she is clearly not comfortable with him, the more you are reinforcing her stress response, which is in all likelihood what is causing the barking.
2) Any kind of training device only works if you actually use it to train the dog. You trained your dog not to bark when she's wearing the collar. Heaping praise and treats when she didn't bark was the right idea, but it's easier to teach a dog what TO do, than what not to do. Also, as I said, I think trying to stop the barking is the wrong approach anyway, the problem here isn't the barking, the barking is just a symptom.
3) Barking like this is normally fear based, and the LAST thing you want to do with a dog who is signalling fear is stop the signal from being given. Dogs do not lie, your dog is sending you a clear message of stress, you need to deal with the stress, not the message, the message is valuable and can be vital. Using a negative stimulus like the can is making the dog even more convinced that her fear is well-founded - even if she does not stop the barking, the loud noise is one more thing in the environment to upset her.
4) I suggest you get Patricia McConnell's (very inexpensive) book called "The Cautious Canine", I also suggest you get Ali Brown's book "Scaredy Dog" (both available from Dogwise and probably Amazon. These books contain classical conditioning methods for helping dogs overcome fear (both use a similar approach, both are useful for learning to understand what is going on with your dog). You cannot do this overnight, but you can do it. I don't want to scare you, but I do want to caution you that taking away a dog's warning signals (like barking or growling) can be very dangerous, since this can mean that if the dog gets stressed to extremes, she could bite without warning you, and that can be a dangerous situation for a person, and a death sentence for the dog. The problem isn't the barking, it's the fear.
5) If you are not in a positive training class with this dog, you need to get into one. Training is important for all dogs, but it is especially important for fearful, reactive dogs, since it helps them learn what is expected of them, and that makes them feel more secure in their world (dogs have to learn to live well with people, and some dogs need more help than others).
Good luck, feel free to email me if you like, I have been where you are now.
posted by biscotti at 8:49 PM on March 13, 2005
1) The man the dog barks at has to completely ignore her for the time being. No bribes, no looking at her, no talking to her, no touching her, to him she does not exist. He has to fade into the woodwork as far as she is concerned for now. He should try to stay away from her except when you are working on this problem in a controlled situation (via classical conditioning), she should not have free run of the house when he is home, and she should be removed from the room when he is there. The more you keep them together when she is clearly not comfortable with him, the more you are reinforcing her stress response, which is in all likelihood what is causing the barking.
2) Any kind of training device only works if you actually use it to train the dog. You trained your dog not to bark when she's wearing the collar. Heaping praise and treats when she didn't bark was the right idea, but it's easier to teach a dog what TO do, than what not to do. Also, as I said, I think trying to stop the barking is the wrong approach anyway, the problem here isn't the barking, the barking is just a symptom.
3) Barking like this is normally fear based, and the LAST thing you want to do with a dog who is signalling fear is stop the signal from being given. Dogs do not lie, your dog is sending you a clear message of stress, you need to deal with the stress, not the message, the message is valuable and can be vital. Using a negative stimulus like the can is making the dog even more convinced that her fear is well-founded - even if she does not stop the barking, the loud noise is one more thing in the environment to upset her.
4) I suggest you get Patricia McConnell's (very inexpensive) book called "The Cautious Canine", I also suggest you get Ali Brown's book "Scaredy Dog" (both available from Dogwise and probably Amazon. These books contain classical conditioning methods for helping dogs overcome fear (both use a similar approach, both are useful for learning to understand what is going on with your dog). You cannot do this overnight, but you can do it. I don't want to scare you, but I do want to caution you that taking away a dog's warning signals (like barking or growling) can be very dangerous, since this can mean that if the dog gets stressed to extremes, she could bite without warning you, and that can be a dangerous situation for a person, and a death sentence for the dog. The problem isn't the barking, it's the fear.
5) If you are not in a positive training class with this dog, you need to get into one. Training is important for all dogs, but it is especially important for fearful, reactive dogs, since it helps them learn what is expected of them, and that makes them feel more secure in their world (dogs have to learn to live well with people, and some dogs need more help than others).
Good luck, feel free to email me if you like, I have been where you are now.
posted by biscotti at 8:49 PM on March 13, 2005
Lots of really good practical advice above.There is this woman who seems to communicate telepathically with animals .I have witnessed it, and am amazed by her sensitivity. I cant explain how she does it but she can work over the phone.
posted by hortense at 10:12 PM on March 13, 2005
posted by hortense at 10:12 PM on March 13, 2005
communicate telepathically with animals
I'm of the opinion that money spent on pet psychics is better spent on a session with a behaviourist or trainer, or failing that, a good book. Whether they can communicate telepathically or not, it's unlikely that you'll actually get much of practical use out of them. What's important is not WHY the dog is behaving this way (other than out of fear, which is apparent), but how to manage it, and a pet psychic isn't a behaviourist or trainer who can help you learn to manage it.
posted by biscotti at 5:27 AM on March 14, 2005
I'm of the opinion that money spent on pet psychics is better spent on a session with a behaviourist or trainer, or failing that, a good book. Whether they can communicate telepathically or not, it's unlikely that you'll actually get much of practical use out of them. What's important is not WHY the dog is behaving this way (other than out of fear, which is apparent), but how to manage it, and a pet psychic isn't a behaviourist or trainer who can help you learn to manage it.
posted by biscotti at 5:27 AM on March 14, 2005
Have you considered the fact that the bark victim may actually be leading a secret life as a serial killer or perhaps is an alien from another planet that has assumed human form (only dogs can see him for what he truly is)? I'm just saying it's a possibility.
Seriously though, does he work in some field where either his demeanor or environment might act to incite her? For example, a person all stressed out from work (perhaps in a stress-related job) may unconciously send out 'stress-vibes'. A butcher or chemist may come home with a scent sniffable only by dogs? Does this person get along well with OTHER dogs?
posted by Lactoso at 5:41 AM on March 14, 2005
Seriously though, does he work in some field where either his demeanor or environment might act to incite her? For example, a person all stressed out from work (perhaps in a stress-related job) may unconciously send out 'stress-vibes'. A butcher or chemist may come home with a scent sniffable only by dogs? Does this person get along well with OTHER dogs?
posted by Lactoso at 5:41 AM on March 14, 2005
Re the collar itself, a trainer advised me recently on citronella collars and suggested the dog should first wear the collar empty for several days. Inserting the citronella later changes the scenario so the source of the spray traces back to the bark, not the collar.
I concur that your dog seems to have learned that the citronella collar means no barking, and no collar means barking is OK. No surprise there. You have to retrain it to not expect the citronella blast, so it stops barking in general, collar or no collar.
posted by werty at 8:23 AM on March 14, 2005
I concur that your dog seems to have learned that the citronella collar means no barking, and no collar means barking is OK. No surprise there. You have to retrain it to not expect the citronella blast, so it stops barking in general, collar or no collar.
posted by werty at 8:23 AM on March 14, 2005
Response by poster: Thanks, everyone. I actually have considered the "secret life as a serial killer" hypothesis...or more accurately the hypothesis that the dog picks up on the fact that the barkee is not the most popular member of the household. However, like I said, since her issues with him were instant, I don't think she had much time to study the group dynamics before choosing her victim.
I agree that the dog is afraid of him. And now that bribing and petting hasn't worked (something he did only to try to stop the barking), he has gone back to ignoring her, which is his natural inclination anyway. I'm sure he'd be just as happy to not have a dog around. We've also considered the possibility that she's dislikes him for snubbing her when clearly she's the most loveable thing imaginable.
I looked into the two book reccomendations on Amazon, and I have some questions... Based on the descriptions and reviews, these seem to be about dogs that are afraid of just about anything. My dog is scared only of him. She's friendly to a fault with everyone else, loves going out for walks or on the subway to the park and in the car to anywhere at all. Her barking is limited to one person, people at the door (until we open the door, and then she wants them to pet her or play with her), and cats/squirrels/racoons in our yard. Given that she's not just a scared-of-everything kind of girl, would the books still be helpful?
posted by duck at 10:34 AM on March 14, 2005
I agree that the dog is afraid of him. And now that bribing and petting hasn't worked (something he did only to try to stop the barking), he has gone back to ignoring her, which is his natural inclination anyway. I'm sure he'd be just as happy to not have a dog around. We've also considered the possibility that she's dislikes him for snubbing her when clearly she's the most loveable thing imaginable.
I looked into the two book reccomendations on Amazon, and I have some questions... Based on the descriptions and reviews, these seem to be about dogs that are afraid of just about anything. My dog is scared only of him. She's friendly to a fault with everyone else, loves going out for walks or on the subway to the park and in the car to anywhere at all. Her barking is limited to one person, people at the door (until we open the door, and then she wants them to pet her or play with her), and cats/squirrels/racoons in our yard. Given that she's not just a scared-of-everything kind of girl, would the books still be helpful?
posted by duck at 10:34 AM on March 14, 2005
Given that she's not just a scared-of-everything kind of girl, would the books still be helpful?
If you want to solve the problem, yes (I'd recommend the Patricia McConnell one, since it's a very basic "here's what to do" sort of thing, and just tailor it to the specific situation). I don't think you mentioned how long you've had this dog, but I would not rule out the possibility that this will crop up again with someone else.
If you're happy with just keeping them separated and not trying to fix the problem (especially if the person in question is unlikely to be a permanent fixture in the house), then you can certainly just manage the environment. I do still feel that you probably shouldn't be only addressing the barking (i.e. with a citronella collar, NOT that there is anything wrong with the collar), but rather just managing the environment so that the dog is not placed in a position where she barks at the man, and the man is not placed in a position where he gets barked at (not a nice thing in ones own home). I doubt the problem is that that he doesn't pay attention to her, but it could be that he's nervous of her or awkward with dogs in general, and this in turn freaks her out a bit (my dog is definitely like this - he can spot a dog person a mile away, but people who don't really know how to interact with dogs worry him). Either way, what I would do is just manage the situation, if you allow them to interact without working on the problem, you're just further ingraining the behaviour (and the reaction to whatever it is about him that upsets her, which could generalize), and if you work on the behaviour without addressing its cause, you're running the risk of training her not to alert you to her stress. Sounds like you're a good owner and know your dog, so I'm sure your decision will be the right one for your situation.
posted by biscotti at 11:01 AM on March 14, 2005
If you want to solve the problem, yes (I'd recommend the Patricia McConnell one, since it's a very basic "here's what to do" sort of thing, and just tailor it to the specific situation). I don't think you mentioned how long you've had this dog, but I would not rule out the possibility that this will crop up again with someone else.
If you're happy with just keeping them separated and not trying to fix the problem (especially if the person in question is unlikely to be a permanent fixture in the house), then you can certainly just manage the environment. I do still feel that you probably shouldn't be only addressing the barking (i.e. with a citronella collar, NOT that there is anything wrong with the collar), but rather just managing the environment so that the dog is not placed in a position where she barks at the man, and the man is not placed in a position where he gets barked at (not a nice thing in ones own home). I doubt the problem is that that he doesn't pay attention to her, but it could be that he's nervous of her or awkward with dogs in general, and this in turn freaks her out a bit (my dog is definitely like this - he can spot a dog person a mile away, but people who don't really know how to interact with dogs worry him). Either way, what I would do is just manage the situation, if you allow them to interact without working on the problem, you're just further ingraining the behaviour (and the reaction to whatever it is about him that upsets her, which could generalize), and if you work on the behaviour without addressing its cause, you're running the risk of training her not to alert you to her stress. Sounds like you're a good owner and know your dog, so I'm sure your decision will be the right one for your situation.
posted by biscotti at 11:01 AM on March 14, 2005
However, like I said, since her issues with him were instant, I don't think she had much time to study the group dynamics before choosing her victim.
I think you're mistaken about that. This stuff is a dog's first language, and they know it far better than we overevolved humans ever can.
Biscotti's advice is excellent, by the way - I couldn't dream of trying to improve on it.
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:55 PM on March 14, 2005
I think you're mistaken about that. This stuff is a dog's first language, and they know it far better than we overevolved humans ever can.
Biscotti's advice is excellent, by the way - I couldn't dream of trying to improve on it.
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:55 PM on March 14, 2005
Response by poster: Thanks everyone...I'll get the books Biscotti recommends. We've had the dog 3 years and so far this is the only person she barks at.
I think it's also time to go back to offering lots of praise when she doesn't bark.
posted by duck at 7:51 PM on March 14, 2005
I think it's also time to go back to offering lots of praise when she doesn't bark.
posted by duck at 7:51 PM on March 14, 2005
Good one, duck. On going back to my bookshelf and having a look through, the Ali Brown book ("Scaredy Dog") is a more in-depth book than the McConnell one, and if you're going to tackle this, I'd suggest you get that one, or both. The Brown one isn't a huge book either, but I think it gives you a more complete picture of how to deal with this (there's a very confusing part of the McConnell one which I think she'll probably address in a future edition, but it can be a bit frustrating trying to see what she's getting at). Good luck to you!
posted by biscotti at 8:14 PM on March 14, 2005
posted by biscotti at 8:14 PM on March 14, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by duck at 7:10 PM on March 13, 2005