Sorry dude, my kid's thirsty, I'm buying him a bottle of water
August 18, 2010 9:07 AM Subscribe
How does one remain friends with an uber-environmentalist/naturalist without having them drive you crazy?
Background--
I do my best to recycle paper/plastic, etc, conserve water, and eat very healthy. My buddy, however, has made it his life's calling to pollute every interaction we have together and every interaction he has with other people with his opinions on the environment and health. Examples include commenting on every item I eat that might have corn syrup in it instead of sugar, is not organic, or items that may have traveled >10 miles from where it was made/grown before I bought/ate it. Additionally, when he comes to my home and throws something away, he can't help commenting on items in my garbage---"You can't throw that in a landfill....you should find a way to dispose of that in a more environmentally appropriate way, etc.."
I am aware that we all can be hypocrites at times, but how do you handle someone who is 30 lbs. overweight and rarely exercises, owns a washer/dryer/dishwasher (and uses them), and won't buy his kids a bottle of water when they are thirsty because of the "impact"?
I guess I won't be able to diffuse this behavior, at least with me, without insulting him. How do you handle the over-environmentalist in your life?
Background--
I do my best to recycle paper/plastic, etc, conserve water, and eat very healthy. My buddy, however, has made it his life's calling to pollute every interaction we have together and every interaction he has with other people with his opinions on the environment and health. Examples include commenting on every item I eat that might have corn syrup in it instead of sugar, is not organic, or items that may have traveled >10 miles from where it was made/grown before I bought/ate it. Additionally, when he comes to my home and throws something away, he can't help commenting on items in my garbage---"You can't throw that in a landfill....you should find a way to dispose of that in a more environmentally appropriate way, etc.."
I am aware that we all can be hypocrites at times, but how do you handle someone who is 30 lbs. overweight and rarely exercises, owns a washer/dryer/dishwasher (and uses them), and won't buy his kids a bottle of water when they are thirsty because of the "impact"?
I guess I won't be able to diffuse this behavior, at least with me, without insulting him. How do you handle the over-environmentalist in your life?
I'd recycle this over-environmentalist and reduce my impact on the world by having one less friend.
posted by COD at 9:13 AM on August 18, 2010 [9 favorites]
posted by COD at 9:13 AM on August 18, 2010 [9 favorites]
Is he a "recent convert?" Because it might be like a getting-religion thing (and by religion I mean any new discovery that seems to give life ultimate meaning) - because new converts (to environmentalism, animal rights, theism, atheism, or anything else) usually go through an obnoxious, proselytizing phase that winds down after a while. If this is the case, you can try deflecting him with humor (Yes, John, didn't you know it's my life's mission to fill as many landfills as I can?) while repeating to yourself, "this too shall pass."
If it's always been this way with him and he's just one of those self-righteous preachy types, you might want to have a chat with him: "Look, John, you do what you can for the environment, and I do what I can. Live and let live, OK?" and escalate if necessary to a "This is really jeopardizing our friendship, knock it the hell off" talk.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:14 AM on August 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
If it's always been this way with him and he's just one of those self-righteous preachy types, you might want to have a chat with him: "Look, John, you do what you can for the environment, and I do what I can. Live and let live, OK?" and escalate if necessary to a "This is really jeopardizing our friendship, knock it the hell off" talk.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:14 AM on August 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
I have an uncle who's a vegetarian who does this, and it drives people around him nuts. He's very rarely called on it but when he is, he blathers on how he's sharing his knowledge, people are idiots, etc, but then shuts up about it from that point forward.
I'd tell him that you got the message and will do what you can (if that's true), but you'd appreciate it if he'd stop with it. If he reacts badly, well, let the guy go.
posted by vivzan at 9:19 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'd tell him that you got the message and will do what you can (if that's true), but you'd appreciate it if he'd stop with it. If he reacts badly, well, let the guy go.
posted by vivzan at 9:19 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
The problem with this person is not the values he holds, but the overbearing way he treats you.
In this situation, I'd treat your home as the starting point. Next time he criticizes your garbage can, firmly tell him something like, "I've made some conscious choices about how I'm living my life. I know you don't always agree with them, but this is my home and I'd appreciate it if you'd keep your lifestyle judgments to yourself while you're in it." If he takes the hint, branch out from there.
posted by mkultra at 9:20 AM on August 18, 2010 [13 favorites]
In this situation, I'd treat your home as the starting point. Next time he criticizes your garbage can, firmly tell him something like, "I've made some conscious choices about how I'm living my life. I know you don't always agree with them, but this is my home and I'd appreciate it if you'd keep your lifestyle judgments to yourself while you're in it." If he takes the hint, branch out from there.
posted by mkultra at 9:20 AM on August 18, 2010 [13 favorites]
When I get sassed for doing something someone deems unenvironmental, I take the bullet-biting approach and say that I act not accidentally and out of ignorance, but purposefully and with full knowledge, because I want to make the Earth uninhabitable by humans as soon as possible so we all go extinct as soon as possible. I tell the person that small ameliorative measures [like whatever it was that I was sassed for not doing] do not fix the damage that has already been done, but merely help slow the inevitable. The sooner humans go extinct, the sooner the planet can begin to repair itself. Making the Earth so poisonous that humans cannot exist on it is the kindest thing we can do for it, I tell the person.
This approach usually prevents the person from ever bringing it up with me again, because he is never sure how serious I am and does not really care to find out. You have to have some weirdness points to get away with it, though.
posted by millipede at 9:20 AM on August 18, 2010 [31 favorites]
This approach usually prevents the person from ever bringing it up with me again, because he is never sure how serious I am and does not really care to find out. You have to have some weirdness points to get away with it, though.
posted by millipede at 9:20 AM on August 18, 2010 [31 favorites]
He isn't an uber-environmentalist, he's an uber-dick. I've hung round with some very serious environmentalists - the sort of people who'd rather walk an hour in driving snow than compromise their principles - and they were all tremendously positive. The reason they were so positive is that they realised that you don't get people to take up good habits for the planet by nagging - and being uber-environmentalists, that was what was important to them.
This guy is using 'environmentalism' as an excuse to indulge his desire to be an annoying, hypocritical dick.
posted by Coobeastie at 9:20 AM on August 18, 2010 [12 favorites]
This guy is using 'environmentalism' as an excuse to indulge his desire to be an annoying, hypocritical dick.
posted by Coobeastie at 9:20 AM on August 18, 2010 [12 favorites]
Just let him know you feel that nobody has the right to insult you, even if they are doing so in the name of a greater good, and let him know that if he continues to do so, he won't have very many friends left. If you are truly friends, he deserves to know the impact that his ass-face behavior is having on those around him, and insulting someone by pointing out that they are being insulting is one of those times when insulting is not only okay, but nearly required.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:21 AM on August 18, 2010
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:21 AM on August 18, 2010
You might remind him--once, and only once--that life is complicated, and that there is no perfect, impact-free choice you can make ("Hey, is that CARBON DIOXIDE you're exhaling?"). It's not necessary to call him out on hypocrisy (as satisfying as that might be), but you could certainly emphasize that on the great continuum of environmental righteousness, you're making good choices--maybe not perfect ones, but far more than 90% of the folks around you are making. And those choices are not contingent on his approval.
And add that every time he complains about it again, you are going to buy a 120-pack of bleached non-organic disposable diapers and throw them directly into the trash.
posted by mittens at 9:21 AM on August 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
And add that every time he complains about it again, you are going to buy a 120-pack of bleached non-organic disposable diapers and throw them directly into the trash.
posted by mittens at 9:21 AM on August 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Tell him, "I don't care about that stuff as much as you do."
posted by overeducated_alligator at 9:23 AM on August 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by overeducated_alligator at 9:23 AM on August 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
how do you handle someone who is 30 lbs. overweight and rarely exercises, owns a washer/dryer/dishwasher (and uses them), and won't buy his kids a bottle of water when they are thirsty because of the "impact"?
First off, you need to get to a place where you're not deflecting his judgey approach with a judgey approach of your own. That is to say, you have to get to a place where you can say "that's his set of choices and it may seem kooky to me, but he's not my life partner, he can do what he wants"
Then you move to what other people are saying and work on the behavior. "You know John, I'm finding your constant critiquing of my lifestyle chocies tiring and I'd like it if you could ease up a bit, otherwise I'm starting to feel like I'm your personal project and that's not the sort of relationship I think we should be having."
As otehrs have said, it's possible this is something he's newly into and he's just enthusiastic and excited in which case it will ease off over time and you can all have a good laugh about it later, or he's reprioritized his life such that he things that are important to him are more important than being a good friend to you in which case you, as the person who has maybe realized this sooner than he has, needs to gently let him know that he needs to ease off or you need to dial back the friendship because it's not rewarding to you.
Put another way, people who judgmentally comment on what is in other people's trash cans are generally overstepping the bounds of most friendships and it's appropriate to push back somewhat. This is something that is useful for many situations in life where you encounter True Believers. Make it clear that while their own personal choices are fine, you're not interested in a lifestyle makeover and that's either got ot be okay with them, or you'll have to spend less time together.
posted by jessamyn at 9:25 AM on August 18, 2010 [22 favorites]
First off, you need to get to a place where you're not deflecting his judgey approach with a judgey approach of your own. That is to say, you have to get to a place where you can say "that's his set of choices and it may seem kooky to me, but he's not my life partner, he can do what he wants"
Then you move to what other people are saying and work on the behavior. "You know John, I'm finding your constant critiquing of my lifestyle chocies tiring and I'd like it if you could ease up a bit, otherwise I'm starting to feel like I'm your personal project and that's not the sort of relationship I think we should be having."
As otehrs have said, it's possible this is something he's newly into and he's just enthusiastic and excited in which case it will ease off over time and you can all have a good laugh about it later, or he's reprioritized his life such that he things that are important to him are more important than being a good friend to you in which case you, as the person who has maybe realized this sooner than he has, needs to gently let him know that he needs to ease off or you need to dial back the friendship because it's not rewarding to you.
Put another way, people who judgmentally comment on what is in other people's trash cans are generally overstepping the bounds of most friendships and it's appropriate to push back somewhat. This is something that is useful for many situations in life where you encounter True Believers. Make it clear that while their own personal choices are fine, you're not interested in a lifestyle makeover and that's either got ot be okay with them, or you'll have to spend less time together.
posted by jessamyn at 9:25 AM on August 18, 2010 [22 favorites]
I have an acquaintance who makes similar comments about the food I eat. I just ignore her or change the subject because of the context but if she were an actual friend, I would probably stop her after her next comment and say, "Jill, I like having lunch with you, but it seems like I can't order a sandwich without your commenting about the environmental impact of the meat inside it. I'm well aware of your views, but mine are different and I would appreciate it if we could agree to disagree." I wouldn't engage on substance ("My fish may be unsustainable but I make up for it by...") because that won't get you anywhere. Keep it about the fact that you already know what he has to say and would prefer not to hear it again: you heard him the first 50 times, his repeating it again is not going to change your mind. And if he won't show you enough respect to stop, consider whether it's worth staying friends.
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:27 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:27 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
This guy is using 'environmentalism' as an excuse to indulge his desire to be an annoying, hypocritical dick.
Bingo. If it weren't environmentalism, it would be something else. Religion is popular. Guns. Drug policy. Ayn Rand. Whatever.
It's merely a framework which allows him to criticize others, and thereby feel superior to them. His goal, whether known to him or not, is to judge you. He feels better when doing so.
Conduct your interactions with him accordingly.
posted by aramaic at 9:28 AM on August 18, 2010
Bingo. If it weren't environmentalism, it would be something else. Religion is popular. Guns. Drug policy. Ayn Rand. Whatever.
It's merely a framework which allows him to criticize others, and thereby feel superior to them. His goal, whether known to him or not, is to judge you. He feels better when doing so.
Conduct your interactions with him accordingly.
posted by aramaic at 9:28 AM on August 18, 2010
My cousins are hardcore Zionists. Really hardcore. Speeches at rallies hardcore. I am ...pretty far to the other side of that. Here was one of my latest interactions with my cousin:
"Hey, so I hear you're speaking at a rally."
"Yep! You going to come?"
"Oh, no thanks. Not a big fan."
"Got it. Anyway, so..."
If your friend can't do that (e.g. can't value your relationship over their ideals) why would you bother keeping up the relationship? Ask them that you value the friendship, but you have differing views and that it would be very nice if they did not criticize your every move. If they can't, well, you know where you stand in their life.
posted by griphus at 9:28 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Hey, so I hear you're speaking at a rally."
"Yep! You going to come?"
"Oh, no thanks. Not a big fan."
"Got it. Anyway, so..."
If your friend can't do that (e.g. can't value your relationship over their ideals) why would you bother keeping up the relationship? Ask them that you value the friendship, but you have differing views and that it would be very nice if they did not criticize your every move. If they can't, well, you know where you stand in their life.
posted by griphus at 9:28 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
It is good to act responsibly and to try to make the world a better place, and I do. Sometimes I pick up garbage on the street to throw it away in a suitable waste receptacle. However, I do not feel obligated to spend all my time wandering the streets picking up garbage - even though there is enough garbage to occupy me full time, if that was my top priority in life.
Hot baths have a bigger carbon footprint than cold baths, but I still take hot baths. And so does this uber-environmentalist, I would bet (or hot showers, it's the same principle).
The big picture is, planet Earth does have very serious problems that will only be solved by very serious solutions. The amount of environmental pollution that is being generated by emerging economies in China, India, Brazil, etc., is so vast, that no amount of conservation in North America could even come close to making up for it. Unless there is a profoundly new global form of social organization, which I can only see happening by way of a world government with very fundamental economic reforms that are enforced for everyone in the world, we are all headed toward some form of inevitable environmental collapse, no matter what we as individuals are doing. So in that sense, the most we can do is to (metaphorically) re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. Hence, it does not pay to be too fanatical on this issue.
posted by grizzled at 9:34 AM on August 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Hot baths have a bigger carbon footprint than cold baths, but I still take hot baths. And so does this uber-environmentalist, I would bet (or hot showers, it's the same principle).
The big picture is, planet Earth does have very serious problems that will only be solved by very serious solutions. The amount of environmental pollution that is being generated by emerging economies in China, India, Brazil, etc., is so vast, that no amount of conservation in North America could even come close to making up for it. Unless there is a profoundly new global form of social organization, which I can only see happening by way of a world government with very fundamental economic reforms that are enforced for everyone in the world, we are all headed toward some form of inevitable environmental collapse, no matter what we as individuals are doing. So in that sense, the most we can do is to (metaphorically) re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. Hence, it does not pay to be too fanatical on this issue.
posted by grizzled at 9:34 AM on August 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Your friend is annoying, and in the worst kind of way. But you probably wouldn't feel any angst if you didn't feel he had at least a little bit of a point.
Instead of focusing on his shortcomings or how to retort or defend yourself against his obnoxious behavior, consider the point at hand and come to a resolution that feels satisfying to you. Maybe it is toting around a water bottle, maybe it is not giving a damn. Only you know.
I have an obnoxious friend. She is easy to disregard most of the time, but that's when I actually disagree with her. When something she says sticks in my craw it's usually because, despite her delivery, she has a point I need to consider.
posted by quarterframer at 9:35 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Instead of focusing on his shortcomings or how to retort or defend yourself against his obnoxious behavior, consider the point at hand and come to a resolution that feels satisfying to you. Maybe it is toting around a water bottle, maybe it is not giving a damn. Only you know.
I have an obnoxious friend. She is easy to disregard most of the time, but that's when I actually disagree with her. When something she says sticks in my craw it's usually because, despite her delivery, she has a point I need to consider.
posted by quarterframer at 9:35 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
I know people like this, and they regularly convert from one uber-cause to some other uber-cause. By the time I have gotten the message across that uber-cause #1 isn't that much of a deal for me, uber-cause #2 is there. I'm talking purported membership in ALF to radical gender theory to other fun stuff, and whiplash shifts from being "all about the BDSM lifestyle 24/7" to being the most Catholic a Catholic can be and then on to something else.
Some people are on a continual quest for the absolute, simple solution and, often, their constant proselytizing is a control mechanism to try to fix outside the insecurities they feel about their "solution" on the inside.
Unless you just like toughening up on your "dealing with unfun people" skills or you like collecting stories, pull the ripcord on this one.
posted by adipocere at 9:37 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Some people are on a continual quest for the absolute, simple solution and, often, their constant proselytizing is a control mechanism to try to fix outside the insecurities they feel about their "solution" on the inside.
Unless you just like toughening up on your "dealing with unfun people" skills or you like collecting stories, pull the ripcord on this one.
posted by adipocere at 9:37 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't think this is about over-environmentalism.
It sounds like your friendship isn't really so friendly. It sounds to me like you are both constantly judging one another -- he for what you throw away and the corn syrup content of what you're eating, you for how often he exercises and how much he weighs.
I understand, once you feel judged by someone, you tend to scrutinize the things that they do, and then vice versa. I would try to foster the part of your friendship where you're encouraged to see the best in eachother. If your judgy friend can't come around and do that, find a more positive, forgiving friend.
When I get in this position with a friend, I take a step away, try to be a bigger person and see their behavior from a more forgiving point of view, and if I can't, realize that maybe our friendship has expired and move on.
posted by pazazygeek at 9:39 AM on August 18, 2010
It sounds like your friendship isn't really so friendly. It sounds to me like you are both constantly judging one another -- he for what you throw away and the corn syrup content of what you're eating, you for how often he exercises and how much he weighs.
I understand, once you feel judged by someone, you tend to scrutinize the things that they do, and then vice versa. I would try to foster the part of your friendship where you're encouraged to see the best in eachother. If your judgy friend can't come around and do that, find a more positive, forgiving friend.
When I get in this position with a friend, I take a step away, try to be a bigger person and see their behavior from a more forgiving point of view, and if I can't, realize that maybe our friendship has expired and move on.
posted by pazazygeek at 9:39 AM on August 18, 2010
Previously on MetaFilter:
In Praise of Fast Food
It's a rational, balanced read from the Gastronomica Reader. Email it to him, start a discussion. But seriously, he might just be an ass.
posted by smistephen at 9:52 AM on August 18, 2010
In Praise of Fast Food
It's a rational, balanced read from the Gastronomica Reader. Email it to him, start a discussion. But seriously, he might just be an ass.
posted by smistephen at 9:52 AM on August 18, 2010
I don't really understand how being overweight and not exercising makes him a hypocrite about caring for the environment, but that probably just came from the part of you that is mad about him judging you. Kind of ironic given the context. In any case, it sounds like a symptom of a communication problem in your friendship.
Just tell him that his constant critique of your environmental impact is inappropriate and annoying as hell and you'd prefer he stop because you don't want that kind of friendship. And then maybe take a look at the ways you're judgey towards him and try to stop doing that.
posted by Kimberly at 10:00 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just tell him that his constant critique of your environmental impact is inappropriate and annoying as hell and you'd prefer he stop because you don't want that kind of friendship. And then maybe take a look at the ways you're judgey towards him and try to stop doing that.
posted by Kimberly at 10:00 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm a big fan of saying - and by big fan I mean I use it daily to deal with the Penn Environmentalists or other fund raising groups who pester me on the side walk every day during my lunch break - of the following line, delivered in as perfect a deadpan as I can muster:
"Fuck the Earth."
It may not help the situation but lord it just amuses me to no end.
posted by 8dot3 at 10:03 AM on August 18, 2010
"Fuck the Earth."
It may not help the situation but lord it just amuses me to no end.
posted by 8dot3 at 10:03 AM on August 18, 2010
Response by poster: *I don't really understand how being overweight and not exercising makes him a hypocrite about caring for the environment*
It doesn't. That's the uber-naturalist in him. Oh how wonderful it was that Pepsi brought back, for a limited time, Mountain Dew with real sugar and not HFCS, as if everything with sugar is healthy/natural and everything with HFCS is not. Now if they could only make organic Mountain Dew, it would be the perfect food (tongue-in-cheek)
posted by teg4rvn at 10:18 AM on August 18, 2010
It doesn't. That's the uber-naturalist in him. Oh how wonderful it was that Pepsi brought back, for a limited time, Mountain Dew with real sugar and not HFCS, as if everything with sugar is healthy/natural and everything with HFCS is not. Now if they could only make organic Mountain Dew, it would be the perfect food (tongue-in-cheek)
posted by teg4rvn at 10:18 AM on August 18, 2010
"Dude, the fundamentalist thing is getting old."
posted by rhizome at 10:19 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 10:19 AM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, to answer part of your question, dishwashers use substantially less water and electricity than washing by hand... same with washing machines.
My question would be: what is stopping you from taking his behavior and what he says as simply information to be considered? Why does it make you so angry, why does it affect you so much? Of course he has a part to play, but you're also responsible for the way you feel in response to his comments.
posted by jardinier at 10:24 AM on August 18, 2010
My question would be: what is stopping you from taking his behavior and what he says as simply information to be considered? Why does it make you so angry, why does it affect you so much? Of course he has a part to play, but you're also responsible for the way you feel in response to his comments.
posted by jardinier at 10:24 AM on August 18, 2010
If he's free to criticise you, then you're free to return the favor. And if he objects, tell him, look, we can nitpick and call each other out on what we see as failings all day long. Why don't we BOTH save ourselves the trouble, give each other for credit for doing the best we can, and get back to hanging out and just have fun?
posted by lemniskate at 11:11 AM on August 18, 2010
posted by lemniskate at 11:11 AM on August 18, 2010
When you are criticized re your garbage can:
"Oh, okay-I'll start bringing it over to your house to sort then." This, with an uberserious look.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 11:29 AM on August 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
"Oh, okay-I'll start bringing it over to your house to sort then." This, with an uberserious look.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 11:29 AM on August 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
It sounds like he has control/know-it-all issues and just likes telling people what to do and critiquing them. I agree that it doesn't sound like it has anything to do with actually caring about the environment.
I agree with mkultra. Do not permit him to judge anything about you. If I were you I would bluntly tell him that if I wanted his opinion on anything in my life, I would ask for it, and if I don't ask for it, I would appreciate it if he didn't bring it up.
posted by Ashley801 at 12:28 PM on August 18, 2010
I agree with mkultra. Do not permit him to judge anything about you. If I were you I would bluntly tell him that if I wanted his opinion on anything in my life, I would ask for it, and if I don't ask for it, I would appreciate it if he didn't bring it up.
posted by Ashley801 at 12:28 PM on August 18, 2010
Friends who make it their life's calling to constantly criticize their friends' choices are not friends.
Especially those who do it behind their backs on internet forums.
Sure, its ridiculous to conflate the "morality" of organic/local food with "healthy" food (eg, drainking gallons of organic sugar Mountain Dew would still be physically bad for you health wise, even if it was blessed by angels, absolved your sins, and gave orphans shoes). And this would probably drive me crazy too. I'm assuming there is some reason you count this guy as your friend. Part of being a good friend is putting up with other peoples' craziness, and respecting their opinions.
If this is nothing more than a convenient person to spend time with, and not a relationship you value at some deeper level, then throw it away (or compost it, as it were).
If not, you'll work through this. Politely letting him know that you're not really interested in his criticisms may be the right step to take. He may not realize that everyone isn't as interested in these issues as he is, or he assumes that you are. He probably thinks he's sharing helpful information with you, not nagging you, as it comes off. I appreciate it when my friends let me know I'm making an ass of my self (usually after a margarita and a political topic of discussion). Letting him know his comments aren't always socially appropriate is a considerate thing for a friend to do.
Letting him know that his practices are hypocritical, based on pseudoscience, etc, is a bit trickier. I'd say avoid it for now, see if there are gradual inroads to make, or if he doesn't become more informed on these issues himself.
posted by fontophilic at 1:20 PM on August 18, 2010
Especially those who do it behind their backs on internet forums.
Sure, its ridiculous to conflate the "morality" of organic/local food with "healthy" food (eg, drainking gallons of organic sugar Mountain Dew would still be physically bad for you health wise, even if it was blessed by angels, absolved your sins, and gave orphans shoes). And this would probably drive me crazy too. I'm assuming there is some reason you count this guy as your friend. Part of being a good friend is putting up with other peoples' craziness, and respecting their opinions.
If this is nothing more than a convenient person to spend time with, and not a relationship you value at some deeper level, then throw it away (or compost it, as it were).
If not, you'll work through this. Politely letting him know that you're not really interested in his criticisms may be the right step to take. He may not realize that everyone isn't as interested in these issues as he is, or he assumes that you are. He probably thinks he's sharing helpful information with you, not nagging you, as it comes off. I appreciate it when my friends let me know I'm making an ass of my self (usually after a margarita and a political topic of discussion). Letting him know his comments aren't always socially appropriate is a considerate thing for a friend to do.
Letting him know that his practices are hypocritical, based on pseudoscience, etc, is a bit trickier. I'd say avoid it for now, see if there are gradual inroads to make, or if he doesn't become more informed on these issues himself.
posted by fontophilic at 1:20 PM on August 18, 2010
I think OP should give his friend a chance to mend his ways before summarily dumping him. I would want to know if I was being a pain in the butt, and I would want to correct it rather than risk a good friendship. I mean, maybe the friend is an irredeemable dickweed or cause-addict, or maybe he doesn't know he's being obnoxious and will dial it down if OP has a frank but friendly talk with him.
If I'm being a clod (and we are all clods at one time or another), I trust my good friends to call me on it - nicely, of course (not "YOU UTTER JACKASS!" but "When you do X, I feel condescended to, do you realize how preachy you appear?") but candidly. Letting things fester while seething in silence or complaining online and then cutting off the friendship is pretty jerky, IMO. (Now if you talk to your friend and get nowhere and he persists in his annoying behavior, THEN you can rethink the friendship.)
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:06 PM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
If I'm being a clod (and we are all clods at one time or another), I trust my good friends to call me on it - nicely, of course (not "YOU UTTER JACKASS!" but "When you do X, I feel condescended to, do you realize how preachy you appear?") but candidly. Letting things fester while seething in silence or complaining online and then cutting off the friendship is pretty jerky, IMO. (Now if you talk to your friend and get nowhere and he persists in his annoying behavior, THEN you can rethink the friendship.)
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:06 PM on August 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Specifically on the HFCS point, I was reminded of a Skeptoid podcast on the topic. But anyway.
If he's steps over boundaries, I don't see a problem with pointing that out. Doing so doesn't need to be public, but done on the side if you actually want to salvage this "friendship." Though if he's publicly "shaming" other people as well, then I still don't see a problem with calling him on the attitude. Like others have pointed out, this sounds like a deeper communication issue. And how people realize and respond to their own flaws and hypocrisies, from people they supposedly trust, is pretty indicative of what kind of people they ultimately are and if these relationships are worth salvaging or not.
You've got to be able to take what you dish.
posted by Ky at 3:04 PM on August 18, 2010
If he's steps over boundaries, I don't see a problem with pointing that out. Doing so doesn't need to be public, but done on the side if you actually want to salvage this "friendship." Though if he's publicly "shaming" other people as well, then I still don't see a problem with calling him on the attitude. Like others have pointed out, this sounds like a deeper communication issue. And how people realize and respond to their own flaws and hypocrisies, from people they supposedly trust, is pretty indicative of what kind of people they ultimately are and if these relationships are worth salvaging or not.
You've got to be able to take what you dish.
posted by Ky at 3:04 PM on August 18, 2010
I just remembered a situation in which I was sort of like your friend--my friend was making a career choice that I thought was foolish, and for a while pretty much any time she mentioned it I would fire off some criticism of that choice. Finally, she said flat out, "You have made your point, please stop repeating it." So I stopped. She didn't convince me that her choice was a good or smart one (in fact, I still think it was a bad choice), but that wasn't the point: neither of us had to change our mind, it was simply a matter of respecting each other.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:00 PM on August 18, 2010
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:00 PM on August 18, 2010
"I need you to find a nicer way to bring up your beliefs, or we're not going to be friends anymore."
posted by markovitch at 6:05 PM on August 18, 2010
posted by markovitch at 6:05 PM on August 18, 2010
Best answer: Hmm, all my friends are psycho-environmentalists. But interestingly, they're that way in different ways. So, supposing you wanted to "pass," here are a few things you could say. Also, you could probably mix-and-match these for good result even if you're half-jokey. He'll either decide you're like him, or he'll get the point that there are a lot different choices people can make even from a righteous perspective.
- "I know, I missed the farmers market, so I had to get some of that Safeway crap."
- "Isn't that funny? I know it's total junk, I just had this crazy craving." (Pretend it's sometime about ten years after the environmental collapse and you're talking about the good old days.)
- "I know. I haven't been able to find any locally produced cheese crackers! I talked to the co-op about it, but they didn't know any local operations."
- "Yeah, that's all they sell at the corner store. It was either that or drive to the market, so I figured it was better to take what they had."
- "After biking all the way to the store, I had a moment of weakness."
- "Dude, organic sugar? That stuff is only made in Brazil. Do the math. Buying HFCS from Indiana, just one state over, is actually less carbon intensive."
- "Dude, organic sugar? That stuff is made in ___. Have you looked at their human rights record? Do you really want to support that regime?"
- "Dude, organic sugar? They cut down the rainforests to plant sugar cane, you know. Did you know there are only like 400 gorillas left in the entire world? I'd rather get my sweetener from the corn fields that are already planted and leave the gorillas alone."
- "You're worried about landfill space? The climate is going to get us long before that."
- "How do you feel about people who have more money being able to buy organic and opt-out of the industrial toxic food complex? I feel like we should stand in solidarity and work together to demand better food safety standards."
... I could go on. I don't know where holier-than-thou-ing him will get you, but it might shift the conversation from him vs. you to "how does one balance all these things in one's life?"
posted by salvia at 8:17 PM on August 18, 2010
- "I know, I missed the farmers market, so I had to get some of that Safeway crap."
- "Isn't that funny? I know it's total junk, I just had this crazy craving." (Pretend it's sometime about ten years after the environmental collapse and you're talking about the good old days.)
- "I know. I haven't been able to find any locally produced cheese crackers! I talked to the co-op about it, but they didn't know any local operations."
- "Yeah, that's all they sell at the corner store. It was either that or drive to the market, so I figured it was better to take what they had."
- "After biking all the way to the store, I had a moment of weakness."
- "Dude, organic sugar? That stuff is only made in Brazil. Do the math. Buying HFCS from Indiana, just one state over, is actually less carbon intensive."
- "Dude, organic sugar? That stuff is made in ___. Have you looked at their human rights record? Do you really want to support that regime?"
- "Dude, organic sugar? They cut down the rainforests to plant sugar cane, you know. Did you know there are only like 400 gorillas left in the entire world? I'd rather get my sweetener from the corn fields that are already planted and leave the gorillas alone."
- "You're worried about landfill space? The climate is going to get us long before that."
- "How do you feel about people who have more money being able to buy organic and opt-out of the industrial toxic food complex? I feel like we should stand in solidarity and work together to demand better food safety standards."
... I could go on. I don't know where holier-than-thou-ing him will get you, but it might shift the conversation from him vs. you to "how does one balance all these things in one's life?"
posted by salvia at 8:17 PM on August 18, 2010
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posted by Tomorrowful at 9:11 AM on August 18, 2010 [30 favorites]