It's a game of tug-of-war, and I'm the rope
August 10, 2010 12:05 PM Subscribe
I got a new job that wants me to start right away. Needless to say my boss at my current job is miffed that I'm not giving the classic two week's notice. How can I handle this?
I finally landed my dream job after spending several years at a job I loathe. They want me to start NOW, and they don't seem to care for me giving two week's notice at my old job. But my boss at my old job still needs me to wrap up a few things before I leave.
I'm at a loss as to how to maneuver this. This field is cutthroat, and I feel this is why they consider leaping from one job to another to not be a big deal, unlike my current job. Also, getting this new job has been like getting a much-needed divorce finalized and I can't wait to jump ship (of course I keep this all to myself.) I don't want them to push ahead and hire someone else. But a part of me understands that it's only fair to give sufficient notice. Could it be reduced in such a case as this?
I finally landed my dream job after spending several years at a job I loathe. They want me to start NOW, and they don't seem to care for me giving two week's notice at my old job. But my boss at my old job still needs me to wrap up a few things before I leave.
I'm at a loss as to how to maneuver this. This field is cutthroat, and I feel this is why they consider leaping from one job to another to not be a big deal, unlike my current job. Also, getting this new job has been like getting a much-needed divorce finalized and I can't wait to jump ship (of course I keep this all to myself.) I don't want them to push ahead and hire someone else. But a part of me understands that it's only fair to give sufficient notice. Could it be reduced in such a case as this?
The current job is one you loathe, right? They've made you feel like crap? Fuck 'em.
posted by notsnot at 12:08 PM on August 10, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by notsnot at 12:08 PM on August 10, 2010 [6 favorites]
Trust me, if your current boss wanted you gone, he'd not give you two weeks notice. Probably not two days. It's courteous to give notice, but there's no requirement that you do so.
posted by KathrynT at 12:08 PM on August 10, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 12:08 PM on August 10, 2010 [8 favorites]
Just bounce. There's no law says you have to give two weeks, unless you have a contract.
I know plenty of people who've been fired with no notice. Seems like quitting with little notice would be just as acceptable.
posted by Netzapper at 12:09 PM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
I know plenty of people who've been fired with no notice. Seems like quitting with little notice would be just as acceptable.
posted by Netzapper at 12:09 PM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Can you take "vacation days" at the old job and work out some kind of transition schedule with the new job? Sounds like you already have the job you want, so unless you think you'll need this recommendation down the line, I don't see them harm.
posted by two lights above the sea at 12:09 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by two lights above the sea at 12:09 PM on August 10, 2010
Sounds like you pretty much need to move forward. If you aren't required to by contract, two weeks notice is a courtesy. Just don't expect to use your old boss as a reference in the future.
posted by cross_impact at 12:11 PM on August 10, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by cross_impact at 12:11 PM on August 10, 2010 [4 favorites]
When I interview people, I always ask them "when can you start." If they're currently employed in any kind of position w/ responsibility and they say "tomorrow", I ask them why they don't feel the need to give notice. Unless they have a really good reason (hostile work environment, for example), I won't hire them.
Just my 2 cents. My next to last job, I gave a months notice. My last job, I quit the morning before I was supposed to go to work, in a facility where I was the only employee and nobody else knew how to do any portion of my job, because my boss was a lying, backstabbing, snarky bitch and I absolutely knew I would never need any kind of a reference from her.
YMMV.
posted by TomMelee at 12:11 PM on August 10, 2010 [6 favorites]
Just my 2 cents. My next to last job, I gave a months notice. My last job, I quit the morning before I was supposed to go to work, in a facility where I was the only employee and nobody else knew how to do any portion of my job, because my boss was a lying, backstabbing, snarky bitch and I absolutely knew I would never need any kind of a reference from her.
YMMV.
posted by TomMelee at 12:11 PM on August 10, 2010 [6 favorites]
Can you offer to wrap up the few things outside of the working hours of your new job? Be available by phone (within reason) for any questions they have for 2 weeks?
These days it is not uncommon when giving your 2 week notice to be told to leave that day.
I say go for the dream job, they are not looking for a good reference from this job.
posted by JujuB at 12:12 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
These days it is not uncommon when giving your 2 week notice to be told to leave that day.
I say go for the dream job, they are not looking for a good reference from this job.
posted by JujuB at 12:12 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
I am of the firm belief that notice is a "nice to have" not a "have to have"--i.e., if you could give notice without hurting your new job, then fine, but since you can't, try to get as much in order as you can, let folks know where to find things, don't wipe out your hard drive or take anything that doesn't belong to you and get going while the going is good.
I have been fired with no notice (California is an "at will" state). A business will do what is best for the business. You should do what is best for you. In the US, the only kind of reference a company can give is to confirm that you were an employee and not fired for cause. Many companies won't even confirm salaries.
posted by agatha_magatha at 12:12 PM on August 10, 2010
I have been fired with no notice (California is an "at will" state). A business will do what is best for the business. You should do what is best for you. In the US, the only kind of reference a company can give is to confirm that you were an employee and not fired for cause. Many companies won't even confirm salaries.
posted by agatha_magatha at 12:12 PM on August 10, 2010
Don't sweat it. As others have said, if you don't have a contractual obligation to give two weeks, it doesn't matter at all. Be professional about it, understand that it might hurt your relationship with the old boss... but do it.
Congrats on the new job!
posted by alaijmw at 12:13 PM on August 10, 2010
Congrats on the new job!
posted by alaijmw at 12:13 PM on August 10, 2010
It sounds like you have made up your mind already, you just need confirmation that it's alright. You have a job already. Don't burn any bridges, make sure that there's plenty of documentation and let them know that it's not personal and that you can be reached by phone and email to help out with anything they need.
posted by TheBones at 12:13 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by TheBones at 12:13 PM on August 10, 2010
Yes, pull a Stephen Slater, and slide down the emergency chute. The only reason to stay longer is to get something for YOU. Fuck the man, always.
What might make you stay?
--Letter of recommendation
--Final negotiation of your exit package (i.e., do you get credit for unused vacation days? Are you due any reimbursements that they might try to fuck you with?)
--Local law requires more notice
--Your contract requires more notice
--Other.
This is not legal advice, and I am not your attorney. But sticking around at a job you hate just because your soon to be ex-boss is angry at you is dumb. File it under who gives a shit, get your last Lean Cuisine from the freezer in the break room, grab the photo of your schnauzer and get the hell out of Dodge.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 12:16 PM on August 10, 2010 [8 favorites]
What might make you stay?
--Letter of recommendation
--Final negotiation of your exit package (i.e., do you get credit for unused vacation days? Are you due any reimbursements that they might try to fuck you with?)
--Local law requires more notice
--Your contract requires more notice
--Other.
This is not legal advice, and I am not your attorney. But sticking around at a job you hate just because your soon to be ex-boss is angry at you is dumb. File it under who gives a shit, get your last Lean Cuisine from the freezer in the break room, grab the photo of your schnauzer and get the hell out of Dodge.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 12:16 PM on August 10, 2010 [8 favorites]
I would just say, "Sorry pal, but I need this job and they want me to start now. Sorry I wasn't able to give notice. Bye"
The only downfall is that if things don't work out at this next job, you probably shouldn't use your current boss as a reference for any jobs in the future.
posted by KogeLiz at 12:18 PM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
The only downfall is that if things don't work out at this next job, you probably shouldn't use your current boss as a reference for any jobs in the future.
posted by KogeLiz at 12:18 PM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'd put it this way: the job you loathe will continue to be loathsome in every way possible, including not letting you take a better job when you want to. I would depersonalize this situation, because if the boss really gave a crap about the company he would have been prepared for this. What if you had gotten hit by a bus?
posted by rhizome at 12:18 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by rhizome at 12:18 PM on August 10, 2010
If you leave immediately, at worst,* you've burned your bridges with your old job. If you don't leave immediately, you might lose the new job; or, even if they end up letting you start in two weeks, you'll start your new job on a really bad note. Which is worse?
* Unless you have a legal obligation, about which we have no basis for having an opinion.
posted by Jaltcoh at 12:20 PM on August 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
* Unless you have a legal obligation, about which we have no basis for having an opinion.
posted by Jaltcoh at 12:20 PM on August 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
What might make you stay?
--Letter of recommendation
--Final negotiation of your exit package (i.e., do you get credit for unused vacation days? Are you due any reimbursements that they might try to fuck you with?)
--Local law requires more notice
He wouldn't need a letter of recommendation - as he already has this new job.
And I'm curious to know what law requires an employee to give a two week notice without a written contract?
in fact, almost all states are At-Will employment, which means the employer or the employee can terminate working at any time.
posted by KogeLiz at 12:22 PM on August 10, 2010
--Letter of recommendation
--Final negotiation of your exit package (i.e., do you get credit for unused vacation days? Are you due any reimbursements that they might try to fuck you with?)
--Local law requires more notice
He wouldn't need a letter of recommendation - as he already has this new job.
And I'm curious to know what law requires an employee to give a two week notice without a written contract?
in fact, almost all states are At-Will employment, which means the employer or the employee can terminate working at any time.
posted by KogeLiz at 12:22 PM on August 10, 2010
I'm with the folks that say screw it and leave. But if it will make you feel better, see if there is any kind of compromise - can you do some wrap-up tasks after hours at the old job? Can you go to your old job for 1 or 2 hours before/after your new job each day for a week or so? Would your new job let you work M-Th 10hours for a week, then use that Friday to go to the old job? if you frame this to the new job as a decent thing to do, even while being really excited about the new job, it might not be a bad thing.
But really - do what's best for you and don't worry about the old guys. They don't own you, and you don't need their recommendation anyway.
posted by CathyG at 12:27 PM on August 10, 2010
But really - do what's best for you and don't worry about the old guys. They don't own you, and you don't need their recommendation anyway.
posted by CathyG at 12:27 PM on August 10, 2010
I think it's a good way to burn a bridge doing it that way. I'm no lawyer, but I think in theory they could say that part of your job was to ensure transition to matter when you left. If you perform the work but it is inaccessible , then they are being deprived of what they paid for. work performed for an employer belongs to the employer, if you have work that has been performed that is paid for, but not delivered-- you should make sure that they get it.
what I would do personally, any of the following:
1) tell the new employer that you are anxious to start the job, but that you want to do the right thing for the company and tell them that they you will make sure to do the right thing for them as well when the time comes. They may want you to start early and it may satisfy a pressing need, but if you do this to the company in the back of their mind they might always see you as somebody who will bail. it's better to have some buddies respect than to have their approval. ( some buddies = somebody's -- damn voice-recognition )
No matter what anybody says here, the standard is two weeks. comparisons to getting fired are not relevant. Because when you get fired, it's often because you've done something very wrong or are not doing the job to begin with. (if you are not doing their job then why should a company pay you any more than they already have?; by the time they've reached that decision they've probably already lost money on you) Contrast this with layoffs where companies most of the time gives ample notice.
2) tell the new company are happy to start working half-time or three days a week and that you will continue to do it hand over at the old company. If the two are competitors they might not be very happy with this, but since you are coming directly from the other anyway...
3) tell the old boss the situation, explain that there's a chance of losing the new job, and promise to come in on the nights and weekends for a few weeks as needed. taper off as needed with firm time time limits. Doing this will mean the difference between a burned bridge and a reference in the future. Just because you hate the company now doesn't mean that you will have to account for your time at the company later and that it won't be investigated by a future employer.
think long term. After this next job, you're going to have to apply for another job sooner or later. I personally would never hire anybody that left without notice unless it was under some kind of harassment situation.
good luck
posted by chinabound at 12:29 PM on August 10, 2010
what I would do personally, any of the following:
1) tell the new employer that you are anxious to start the job, but that you want to do the right thing for the company and tell them that they you will make sure to do the right thing for them as well when the time comes. They may want you to start early and it may satisfy a pressing need, but if you do this to the company in the back of their mind they might always see you as somebody who will bail. it's better to have some buddies respect than to have their approval. ( some buddies = somebody's -- damn voice-recognition )
No matter what anybody says here, the standard is two weeks. comparisons to getting fired are not relevant. Because when you get fired, it's often because you've done something very wrong or are not doing the job to begin with. (if you are not doing their job then why should a company pay you any more than they already have?; by the time they've reached that decision they've probably already lost money on you) Contrast this with layoffs where companies most of the time gives ample notice.
2) tell the new company are happy to start working half-time or three days a week and that you will continue to do it hand over at the old company. If the two are competitors they might not be very happy with this, but since you are coming directly from the other anyway...
3) tell the old boss the situation, explain that there's a chance of losing the new job, and promise to come in on the nights and weekends for a few weeks as needed. taper off as needed with firm time time limits. Doing this will mean the difference between a burned bridge and a reference in the future. Just because you hate the company now doesn't mean that you will have to account for your time at the company later and that it won't be investigated by a future employer.
think long term. After this next job, you're going to have to apply for another job sooner or later. I personally would never hire anybody that left without notice unless it was under some kind of harassment situation.
good luck
posted by chinabound at 12:29 PM on August 10, 2010
He wouldn't need a letter of recommendation - as he already has this new job.
And I'm curious to know what law requires an employee to give a two week notice without a written contract?
OP may need the letter of recommendation for future job applications; obviously, he has the job s/he's leaving for.
As you note, law varies by jurisdiction; we don't know where the OP works or what his/her job is. You are more clever than I to conclude that there is NO job in ANY jurisdiction that requires that notice be given.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 12:34 PM on August 10, 2010
And I'm curious to know what law requires an employee to give a two week notice without a written contract?
OP may need the letter of recommendation for future job applications; obviously, he has the job s/he's leaving for.
As you note, law varies by jurisdiction; we don't know where the OP works or what his/her job is. You are more clever than I to conclude that there is NO job in ANY jurisdiction that requires that notice be given.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 12:34 PM on August 10, 2010
Man you guys are quick--or I am too slow, 13 new posts popped up.
just wanted to address this:
"He wouldn't need a letter of recommendation - as he already has this new job."
WHAT?!
most jobs want an employment history--and that means having to explain your time working for the last X years. some industries want you to go back to the beginning. I think the average is five years-- at least. Gaps need to be explained, and you should have a reference from any job you stayed in for any length of time. This is really short-term thinking to think that one would never need to show a reference for a period of time-- unless you plan to retire in the new job or stay a long time.
posted by chinabound at 12:36 PM on August 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
just wanted to address this:
"He wouldn't need a letter of recommendation - as he already has this new job."
WHAT?!
most jobs want an employment history--and that means having to explain your time working for the last X years. some industries want you to go back to the beginning. I think the average is five years-- at least. Gaps need to be explained, and you should have a reference from any job you stayed in for any length of time. This is really short-term thinking to think that one would never need to show a reference for a period of time-- unless you plan to retire in the new job or stay a long time.
posted by chinabound at 12:36 PM on August 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
BOUNCE. Do what is right for you, because the company DOES NOT care about your interest.
posted by 2legit2quit at 12:42 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by 2legit2quit at 12:42 PM on August 10, 2010
No matter what anybody says here, the standard is two weeks. comparisons to getting fired are not relevant. Because when you get fired, it's often because you've done something very wrong or are not doing the job to begin with.
Every time I've ever left a job, including layoffs, it's been with zero notice. Literally "get your shit and get out" no notice. When I've given notice, I've been told to turn in my badge within the hour. If the standard is two weeks, I've not had that standard applied for fifteen years.
posted by KathrynT at 12:44 PM on August 10, 2010 [4 favorites]
Every time I've ever left a job, including layoffs, it's been with zero notice. Literally "get your shit and get out" no notice. When I've given notice, I've been told to turn in my badge within the hour. If the standard is two weeks, I've not had that standard applied for fifteen years.
posted by KathrynT at 12:44 PM on August 10, 2010 [4 favorites]
Yes, most jobs want an employment history, but no one absolutely requires that you stand there with a written letter from everyone you have ever worked for. In fact, many employers won't accept those because YOU could have written them, and if they're going ot call and check, they're just going to call and check.
Your references from previous jobs are NOT required to be the person you directly reported to. It can't be a peer, or someone who worked under you, but as long as there's someone there, you're okay. And if there is no one there any longer who is familiar with your work, this is also not out of the realm of possibility. HR is probably legally obligated to not say something like "He left without giving notice" - if you didn't give notice that would be one thing (e.g. just stopped showing up) but I don't even think they can say THAT.
I have worked for a few companies that NO LONGER EXIST and didn't stay in extended touch with the people who worked there. The only time anyone ever made a thing of it was a recruiter who thought he was being hot shit by cross-examining me and I finally told him that anyone that was *that* interested in where I worked in 1998 was probably someone I didn't want to work for. I have half a dozen other good references from other companies. Most places want TWO.
Regarding notice: if this place is particularly toxic, offer them a few days for you to transfer knowledge, but you aren't required to offer them anything unless your employment contract states otherwise. and even then, generally, the repercussion is that you won't be able to cash out your unused vacation time or something like that. CHECK IT, then decide.
posted by micawber at 12:45 PM on August 10, 2010
Your references from previous jobs are NOT required to be the person you directly reported to. It can't be a peer, or someone who worked under you, but as long as there's someone there, you're okay. And if there is no one there any longer who is familiar with your work, this is also not out of the realm of possibility. HR is probably legally obligated to not say something like "He left without giving notice" - if you didn't give notice that would be one thing (e.g. just stopped showing up) but I don't even think they can say THAT.
I have worked for a few companies that NO LONGER EXIST and didn't stay in extended touch with the people who worked there. The only time anyone ever made a thing of it was a recruiter who thought he was being hot shit by cross-examining me and I finally told him that anyone that was *that* interested in where I worked in 1998 was probably someone I didn't want to work for. I have half a dozen other good references from other companies. Most places want TWO.
Regarding notice: if this place is particularly toxic, offer them a few days for you to transfer knowledge, but you aren't required to offer them anything unless your employment contract states otherwise. and even then, generally, the repercussion is that you won't be able to cash out your unused vacation time or something like that. CHECK IT, then decide.
posted by micawber at 12:45 PM on August 10, 2010
No matter what anybody says here, the standard is two weeks. comparisons to getting fired are not relevant. Because when you get fired, it's often because you've done something very wrong or are not doing the job to begin with.
Incorrect. Layoffs are often same day terminations, like terminations. In both cases, there's an inherent liability in keeping someone around and accessible to company property - electronic and otherwise - who has just been told for reasons of fault or economics that they are no longer needed and wanted.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:51 PM on August 10, 2010
Incorrect. Layoffs are often same day terminations, like terminations. In both cases, there's an inherent liability in keeping someone around and accessible to company property - electronic and otherwise - who has just been told for reasons of fault or economics that they are no longer needed and wanted.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:51 PM on August 10, 2010
In haiku:
You signed no contract?
A better offer in hand?
Can say "Peace, bitches."
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:52 PM on August 10, 2010 [21 favorites]
You signed no contract?
A better offer in hand?
Can say "Peace, bitches."
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:52 PM on August 10, 2010 [21 favorites]
I'm siding with the folks who say ditch 'em, and screw 'em. As others have noted, I doubt that your boss would give you fair notice before canning you.
Times being what they are, I don't really think that a long, stable work history is exactly a requisite for your next job. This is no longer an age where you become a company man then put in your time until you get your gold watch.
If you're ever asked about the time you spent there in a future job interview, just say that it wasn't working out, that you found a better opportunity, and that you certainly wouldn't bail on a job you didn't hate.
posted by Gilbert at 12:58 PM on August 10, 2010
Times being what they are, I don't really think that a long, stable work history is exactly a requisite for your next job. This is no longer an age where you become a company man then put in your time until you get your gold watch.
If you're ever asked about the time you spent there in a future job interview, just say that it wasn't working out, that you found a better opportunity, and that you certainly wouldn't bail on a job you didn't hate.
posted by Gilbert at 12:58 PM on August 10, 2010
Tell your old boss, "Sorry, but this opportunity is too good for me to pass up. Here's my personal [throwaway] email. If you or my replacement needs anything, drop me a line. I'll do my best to answer it within 24 hours."
"Fairness" is what someone cites when they want something from you. When was the last time the old boss said, "You've been working really hard, so I think it would be fair if I gave you the next two days off with pay"? I'm gonna guess never, so pop your chute.
posted by Etrigan at 12:59 PM on August 10, 2010 [7 favorites]
"Fairness" is what someone cites when they want something from you. When was the last time the old boss said, "You've been working really hard, so I think it would be fair if I gave you the next two days off with pay"? I'm gonna guess never, so pop your chute.
posted by Etrigan at 12:59 PM on August 10, 2010 [7 favorites]
a few points:
>the poster said he/she spent several years at this job. that doesn't sound insignificant.
>certainly, the examples you gave when employers didn't require this are completely valid. but that's not all employers, and even if some employers don't want a full history, it's typical to go back at least two jobs. what's going to happen with the job after this coming one?
>what happens if this new job falls through? It's not unheard of for companies to make hiring decisions and then go back on even if that means they have to pay a sum of money. Contracts get canceled, companies go bankrupt, mergers happen. I loved one could get sick, necessitating leaving the job after a short period of time. Anything can happen within the next year.
>two weeks is considered standard, Google if you want. This doesn't always mean that the employers will take you up on it and might ask you to leave right away especially in sales or a very competitive industry.
>instant playoffs? That's not the norm and pretty harsh.
>the poster never said that the old company did anything bad to him or her. That has been assumed by a lot of people here. She simply stated that disliked the job
posted by chinabound at 12:59 PM on August 10, 2010
>the poster said he/she spent several years at this job. that doesn't sound insignificant.
>certainly, the examples you gave when employers didn't require this are completely valid. but that's not all employers, and even if some employers don't want a full history, it's typical to go back at least two jobs. what's going to happen with the job after this coming one?
>what happens if this new job falls through? It's not unheard of for companies to make hiring decisions and then go back on even if that means they have to pay a sum of money. Contracts get canceled, companies go bankrupt, mergers happen. I loved one could get sick, necessitating leaving the job after a short period of time. Anything can happen within the next year.
>two weeks is considered standard, Google if you want. This doesn't always mean that the employers will take you up on it and might ask you to leave right away especially in sales or a very competitive industry.
>instant playoffs? That's not the norm and pretty harsh.
>the poster never said that the old company did anything bad to him or her. That has been assumed by a lot of people here. She simply stated that disliked the job
posted by chinabound at 12:59 PM on August 10, 2010
Adding: yeah, my layoff happened pretty much the way everyone above describes. Not allowed to go back to my cube to get my crap; someone would get it for me. I even got shuffled out a back door, so as to not cause any trouble, I guess. This was not a discipline issue, but rather a money issue. The HR rep was extremely apologetic, but for whatever reason, that was how it went.
posted by Gilbert at 1:07 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by Gilbert at 1:07 PM on August 10, 2010
Chinabound:
most jobs want an employment history--and that means having to explain your time working for the last X years. some industries want you to go back to the beginning. I think the average is five years-- at least. Gaps need to be explained, and you should have a reference from any job you stayed in for any length of time. This is really short-term thinking to think that one would never need to show a reference for a period of time-- unless you plan to retire in the new job or stay a long time.
Employment history doesn't mean a letter of recommendation. In fact, I've never used a letter of recommendation. Although some of my references are my old bosses, some have been just co-workers or other managers where I worked.
Gaps no longer really need to be explained - especially in this economy.
posted by KogeLiz at 1:13 PM on August 10, 2010
most jobs want an employment history--and that means having to explain your time working for the last X years. some industries want you to go back to the beginning. I think the average is five years-- at least. Gaps need to be explained, and you should have a reference from any job you stayed in for any length of time. This is really short-term thinking to think that one would never need to show a reference for a period of time-- unless you plan to retire in the new job or stay a long time.
Employment history doesn't mean a letter of recommendation. In fact, I've never used a letter of recommendation. Although some of my references are my old bosses, some have been just co-workers or other managers where I worked.
Gaps no longer really need to be explained - especially in this economy.
posted by KogeLiz at 1:13 PM on August 10, 2010
Fairness: they paid you what they were obligated to for the hours you'd already worked. Fairness: if it suited their business interests they would have you out the door without an hour's notice. Do whatever you can for your old job in the interest of personal professionalism and not burning bridges (or at least, uh, burning that bridge as lightly as possible) but you don't owe a job a smooth transition. If it makes life hard for them, you know, maybe they shouldn't have been shitty employers. In this economy they will have about a thousand applicants for your job in two days anyway.
posted by nanojath at 1:16 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by nanojath at 1:16 PM on August 10, 2010
Offer to aid the company in the transition of your position by offering your consulting services for $150/hr.
posted by rhizome at 1:29 PM on August 10, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:29 PM on August 10, 2010 [6 favorites]
If you leave now what are they going to do, fire you?
Heh.
Sometimes you can't give two weeks' notice. This appears to be one of those times. Take the new job. If your old boss is rational then they will understand (and perhaps you can offer to help them out on your personal time for a few weeks). If your old boss isn't rational then they will find a way to be peeved even if you give two months' notice ("But we are right in the middle of the Blargle Contract! You can't leave now! Maybe in November...").
As for the former employer bad-mouthing you because you didn't give the two weeks notice, well, that's a chance you have to take. In my experience companies won't say much more than "Yes, Alice Nonymous worked here from this date to this date and she left by her own choice choice" because anything else can get you in legal trouble. Or maybe it won't work out that way.
This is a company you are talking about. You are not leaving a dying person on the side of the road while you get beer. They will survive (and if they don't, well, you were obviously underpaid and underappreciated if you are so critical that your leaving can torpedo the whole business).
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 1:42 PM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Heh.
Sometimes you can't give two weeks' notice. This appears to be one of those times. Take the new job. If your old boss is rational then they will understand (and perhaps you can offer to help them out on your personal time for a few weeks). If your old boss isn't rational then they will find a way to be peeved even if you give two months' notice ("But we are right in the middle of the Blargle Contract! You can't leave now! Maybe in November...").
As for the former employer bad-mouthing you because you didn't give the two weeks notice, well, that's a chance you have to take. In my experience companies won't say much more than "Yes, Alice Nonymous worked here from this date to this date and she left by her own choice choice" because anything else can get you in legal trouble. Or maybe it won't work out that way.
This is a company you are talking about. You are not leaving a dying person on the side of the road while you get beer. They will survive (and if they don't, well, you were obviously underpaid and underappreciated if you are so critical that your leaving can torpedo the whole business).
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 1:42 PM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Why the heck does this job insist that you start immediately? They can't wait two weeks?
If it really is a case of "jump now or else lose this job forever," then I guess you jump and take the consequences of having no references (at least from the boss) for this one, but I suspect something's iffy about a new job insisting that you quit the first one without giving two weeks notice first.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:44 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
If it really is a case of "jump now or else lose this job forever," then I guess you jump and take the consequences of having no references (at least from the boss) for this one, but I suspect something's iffy about a new job insisting that you quit the first one without giving two weeks notice first.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:44 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
I recall reading somewhere that any reasonable new employer will at least let you give a week's notice, because won't they want that in their turn?
posted by zadcat at 2:09 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by zadcat at 2:09 PM on August 10, 2010
It is convenient for an employer to be given two weeks notice, in many cases, because this creates an opportunity to hire a new employee who can then be trained by the old employee who will be leaving in two weeks. In some cases (if a company is badly run) the old employee is actually the only person who knows how to do that particular job, so if he or she is not there to train a new employee, no one else will know how to do it. The solution to that particular problem is to have a written job description. If no written description exists for the job that you are leaving, it would be considerate of you to write one. Then they can train a new person even if you are not there to do it yourself. While this is not the same as 2 weeks notice, it might be a reasonable compromise.
posted by grizzled at 2:25 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by grizzled at 2:25 PM on August 10, 2010
Corporate legal staffs often advise that the only appropriate answer to "Did catlet work for you? How would you describe her? Are you willing to provide a positive reference?" is "catlet worked for us from January 1923 to November 1935." This may vary by industry and country, but is certainly an anti-lawsuit approach that is growing in the USA. I have been told that people who leave under less than Disney-perfect circumstances (which is almost everyone because, otherwise, why leave?) should simply give previous employers' human resources phone number if asked by future interviewers, and not name a specific supervisor.
Were I the OP, I'd try for a few days delayed start in order to wrap up at the old place, but if that's not possible, I'd be okay leaving on the day I gave notice. Actually, everywhere I've given notice, I've been asked for my keys and given a cardboard box within an hour. The day I got laid off, my email was shut off before I was told about the layoffs (and yet the CEO thought nobody knew the company was failing).
posted by catlet at 2:29 PM on August 10, 2010
Were I the OP, I'd try for a few days delayed start in order to wrap up at the old place, but if that's not possible, I'd be okay leaving on the day I gave notice. Actually, everywhere I've given notice, I've been asked for my keys and given a cardboard box within an hour. The day I got laid off, my email was shut off before I was told about the layoffs (and yet the CEO thought nobody knew the company was failing).
posted by catlet at 2:29 PM on August 10, 2010
Sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge.
posted by wv kay in ga at 2:37 PM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by wv kay in ga at 2:37 PM on August 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
For all those people who are claiming that the old company doesn't have your best interests at heart and won't give you two weeks notice that you will be laid off/terminated/etc., remember that your new company doesn't have your best interests at heart either. They need a position filled, and they would prefer that you would drop everything right now to start working for them, even if it does damage to your career in the future. If your new employer decides to fire you in a month, you've got nowhere to turn now after you've burned bridges with your previous employer. Your new employer is being unreasonable in their demands for you and disrespectful to your old employers, are you sure they will treat you as an employee with the same courtesy and respect?
posted by meowzilla at 2:57 PM on August 10, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 2:57 PM on August 10, 2010 [4 favorites]
When I left a job I loathed for a job I loved, I still gave two weeks. The new job was upset, but grudgingly admitted that they would expect the same in return, and respected me for giving it.
The old job had threatened to fire me not a month before over internal politics (not sucking up to the right people), but were flabbergasted I would even attempt to leave, much less give "only" 2 weeks notice. Needless to say, I wasn't upset I was leaving.
A lot of it is going to depend on your unique situation. Do you have ANY ties that you value with the old job (Friends, co-workers you respect, banked days you may be able to use / get credit for, etc.)? Are there outside considerations (moving to a new home, etc.) for between the jobs? If the new job is so uncaring about you giving 2 weeks to the old job, what does that say about the new company? Will they give the same uncaring attitude to other aspects of their HR?
posted by GJSchaller at 3:03 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
The old job had threatened to fire me not a month before over internal politics (not sucking up to the right people), but were flabbergasted I would even attempt to leave, much less give "only" 2 weeks notice. Needless to say, I wasn't upset I was leaving.
A lot of it is going to depend on your unique situation. Do you have ANY ties that you value with the old job (Friends, co-workers you respect, banked days you may be able to use / get credit for, etc.)? Are there outside considerations (moving to a new home, etc.) for between the jobs? If the new job is so uncaring about you giving 2 weeks to the old job, what does that say about the new company? Will they give the same uncaring attitude to other aspects of their HR?
posted by GJSchaller at 3:03 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Compromise. Split the difference, give the old job one week.
posted by desuetude at 4:48 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by desuetude at 4:48 PM on August 10, 2010
I'm surprised that your prospective new employer doesn't mind you screwing over your current employer. To me (as someone mentioned above) someone who's ready to leave without at least two weeks would seem like a liability. You have to have a little professional courtesy, even though you're leaving and you don't like them.
If you've been offered a job, I doubt that they would be ready to change their minds just because you're being courteous to your employer. On the contrary, I imagine it would look better for you.
posted by Simon Barclay at 5:08 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you've been offered a job, I doubt that they would be ready to change their minds just because you're being courteous to your employer. On the contrary, I imagine it would look better for you.
posted by Simon Barclay at 5:08 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
KogeLiz writes "in fact, almost all states are At-Will employment, which means the employer or the employee can terminate working at any time."
Anonymous doesn't indicate where the job is, they may not even be in the US let alone an At-Will state. In BC, just as an example, while the overwhelming majority of employees don't have to give notice unless under contract to do so employees in some jobs have an obligation to give notice even if they don't have a written contract. Usually it is jobs with heavy oversight (say head architect on a building project).
At any rate I'd tell the new employers that you need to give notice. Do you really want to work for someone who won't extend this courtesy to other employers? If you are lucky you'll give notice and the old employers will say "adios amigos" and you can then start immediately at the new place.
posted by Mitheral at 7:38 PM on August 10, 2010
Anonymous doesn't indicate where the job is, they may not even be in the US let alone an At-Will state. In BC, just as an example, while the overwhelming majority of employees don't have to give notice unless under contract to do so employees in some jobs have an obligation to give notice even if they don't have a written contract. Usually it is jobs with heavy oversight (say head architect on a building project).
At any rate I'd tell the new employers that you need to give notice. Do you really want to work for someone who won't extend this courtesy to other employers? If you are lucky you'll give notice and the old employers will say "adios amigos" and you can then start immediately at the new place.
posted by Mitheral at 7:38 PM on August 10, 2010
It's true that you don't need to give any notice -- that's what at will means, either party can terminate the relationship at will with no notice. And it's true that companies are heartless and will make you redundant if they feel they need to. And it's also true that companies can't badmouth you to future employers.
But your worry shouldn't be the company, its your peers and any external parties you may be working with on behalf of your current employer.
The transition period (the purpose for the two weeks) are for the people you leave behind. Your peers will have to pick up your on-going projects and having guidance and context from the primary is helpful. Bad transitions are ones in which there's a few hints and perhaps just verbal discussions, The worst are when there is nothing. As a result, I've always spent the time to "put my affairs in order" before departing.
It's really not all that involved -- you just need to write up a quick brief that provides enough detail for someone else to take over your project. It's a nice touch and a professional courtesy, like thank you notes, that people will remember about you. The goal here is effective transition -- it's not some arbitrary "two week waiting period." So if you can make it happen in a day ... why should your employer give you another 79?
Naturally, being professional matters more if your industry is highly interconnected.
My industry happens to be pretty tight -- so when I call around to ask about someone, chances are I will find someone in one or two hops who has either worked with or been in business dealings with that individual. If there's a lot of negative comments and corroboration, it has a negative impact on hiring / partnering considerations.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) interconnectedness is going up with things such as social networking. While it is getting so the asshats can't out run their bad reputations, it's also becoming more difficult to put youthful indiscretions behind oneself. It's a funny side effect of moving to a world with perfect records, but no history.
My advice, create the transition plans and spend the minimum amount require to get your people up to speed.
posted by cheez-it at 7:57 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
But your worry shouldn't be the company, its your peers and any external parties you may be working with on behalf of your current employer.
The transition period (the purpose for the two weeks) are for the people you leave behind. Your peers will have to pick up your on-going projects and having guidance and context from the primary is helpful. Bad transitions are ones in which there's a few hints and perhaps just verbal discussions, The worst are when there is nothing. As a result, I've always spent the time to "put my affairs in order" before departing.
It's really not all that involved -- you just need to write up a quick brief that provides enough detail for someone else to take over your project. It's a nice touch and a professional courtesy, like thank you notes, that people will remember about you. The goal here is effective transition -- it's not some arbitrary "two week waiting period." So if you can make it happen in a day ... why should your employer give you another 79?
Naturally, being professional matters more if your industry is highly interconnected.
My industry happens to be pretty tight -- so when I call around to ask about someone, chances are I will find someone in one or two hops who has either worked with or been in business dealings with that individual. If there's a lot of negative comments and corroboration, it has a negative impact on hiring / partnering considerations.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) interconnectedness is going up with things such as social networking. While it is getting so the asshats can't out run their bad reputations, it's also becoming more difficult to put youthful indiscretions behind oneself. It's a funny side effect of moving to a world with perfect records, but no history.
My advice, create the transition plans and spend the minimum amount require to get your people up to speed.
posted by cheez-it at 7:57 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
And I'm curious to know what law requires an employee to give a two week notice without a written contract?
in fact, almost all states are At-Will employment, which means the employer or the employee can terminate working at any time
Who said the OP doesn't have a written contract?
Who said the OP is in the United States? (That's what you mean by "almost all states," right? That's still just 5% of the world.)
Let's face it: when it comes to the OP's legal obligations, none of us has any idea what we're talking about. That's why all the advice in this thread is just etiquette.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:08 PM on August 10, 2010
in fact, almost all states are At-Will employment, which means the employer or the employee can terminate working at any time
Who said the OP doesn't have a written contract?
Who said the OP is in the United States? (That's what you mean by "almost all states," right? That's still just 5% of the world.)
Let's face it: when it comes to the OP's legal obligations, none of us has any idea what we're talking about. That's why all the advice in this thread is just etiquette.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:08 PM on August 10, 2010
Some ideas:
- You could split the difference and give one week's notice. (I've noticed that trend a lot in the past couple years at U.S. companies.)
- The key isn't the amount of time (2 weeks), but having all the information available for projects that are in progress. Ideally, you'd have all the docs/info clearly accessible and organized before you even give notice. (Classify this advice as "too little, too late" for your situation.)
- Doing a debrief on each project should take an hour or two. (I know that the soon-to-be-former company has the expectation that you can somehow transfer all you know into a new person's brain, but it doesn't work, no matter how much time you give.)
posted by sfkiddo at 10:10 PM on August 10, 2010
- You could split the difference and give one week's notice. (I've noticed that trend a lot in the past couple years at U.S. companies.)
- The key isn't the amount of time (2 weeks), but having all the information available for projects that are in progress. Ideally, you'd have all the docs/info clearly accessible and organized before you even give notice. (Classify this advice as "too little, too late" for your situation.)
- Doing a debrief on each project should take an hour or two. (I know that the soon-to-be-former company has the expectation that you can somehow transfer all you know into a new person's brain, but it doesn't work, no matter how much time you give.)
posted by sfkiddo at 10:10 PM on August 10, 2010
They wouldn't give you notice if they were going to fire you, so you should extend to them the same (lack of) courtesy.
posted by sacrifix at 12:13 AM on August 11, 2010
posted by sacrifix at 12:13 AM on August 11, 2010
does your new company want you to start tomorrow (Thursday)? i presume not. i'm guessing they want you to starty monday the 16th. that gives you 3 days to wrap up any projects, tie up any loose ends, and send people on their merry way.
if you feel *really* bad about it, like you're screwing your co-workers (those you like), set up a throwaway email, tell them that they can contact you with any project related questions for the next week at that email, and after that week, don't check that address ever again.
unless you have signed a contract or are under another special circumstance in the US, you are under no legal obligation to give 2 weeks' notice.
when i gave 12 days' notice to a job instead of 14 days', they tried to give me some bullshit about how i would never be able to work at their company again because i was breaking "standard business practice" and "no court would hear my case" because two weeks was "standard business practice". as if i wanted to ever work for them again--i was leaving! it's all about etiquette, nothing else, and it's only about the employer's conveniece, that 2 week thing. if you were *quitting* instead of *leaving for another job* you wouldn't give 2 weeks notice, so just quit already.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 1:17 AM on August 11, 2010
if you feel *really* bad about it, like you're screwing your co-workers (those you like), set up a throwaway email, tell them that they can contact you with any project related questions for the next week at that email, and after that week, don't check that address ever again.
unless you have signed a contract or are under another special circumstance in the US, you are under no legal obligation to give 2 weeks' notice.
when i gave 12 days' notice to a job instead of 14 days', they tried to give me some bullshit about how i would never be able to work at their company again because i was breaking "standard business practice" and "no court would hear my case" because two weeks was "standard business practice". as if i wanted to ever work for them again--i was leaving! it's all about etiquette, nothing else, and it's only about the employer's conveniece, that 2 week thing. if you were *quitting* instead of *leaving for another job* you wouldn't give 2 weeks notice, so just quit already.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 1:17 AM on August 11, 2010
Mod note: This is a followup from the asker.
Thanks everyone for the responses. My boss is not very understanding about this and wants me to come in tomorrow morning with resignation in hand and begin work on a "special project." Doing all this on the weekend wasn't good enough.posted by cortex (staff) at 5:49 PM on August 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
Now you see why I want to leave this job so badly. :(
My boss is not very understanding about this and wants me to come in tomorrow morning with resignation in hand and begin work on a "special project."
Um. No. You're not going to be able to devote any time or energy to a "special project," because you need to spend your remaining days getting lose ends wrapped up before your last day.
This is the part where you repeat in your head "what's he gonna do, fire me?"
posted by desuetude at 8:47 PM on August 12, 2010 [3 favorites]
Um. No. You're not going to be able to devote any time or energy to a "special project," because you need to spend your remaining days getting lose ends wrapped up before your last day.
This is the part where you repeat in your head "what's he gonna do, fire me?"
posted by desuetude at 8:47 PM on August 12, 2010 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by inigo2 at 12:07 PM on August 10, 2010 [1 favorite]