How do we figure out a fair outcome for everyone when one co-worker has childcare issues and cannot attend 'mandatory' events at 5pm?
August 9, 2010 11:42 AM Subscribe
How do we figure out a fair outcome for everyone when one co-worker has childcare issues and cannot attend 'mandatory' events at 5pm?
We're a pretty small office of about 7. Lead director is male, rest of the directors of different areas office are female. It's a pretty nice place to work, and amazingly, we are all offered some pretty nice flexibility - the ability to come in a little late, or leave a little early, or work at home on certain days for any reason, from childcare to early dinner with friends. The mantra is: just make sure the work gets done.
This works for everyone, except around one issue. Occasionally, (about 10-12 times a year) there are mandatory overtime events (staff aren't hourly), where staff have to either come in before 9 or stay for an evening event from 5-6:30pm. When these happen, one co-worker who has small children asks to use her flextime to come in at 9am or leave at 5pm. It's putting the Lead Director in a bit of a pickle, because this flexibility is around a specific situation: specifically coming in early or staying late at a particular event that the rest of the team is required to be at. (This could include an event that requires multiple director's presence to 'represent' the department. In this situation while directors might rotate, this director would like to use her flextime to be excluded from such events.)
The lead director is trying to come up with something fair for everyone. No one else in the office has kids, but I suspect they aren't too gung ho about being at an early morning or after hours mandatory event either. But childcare issues are no joke - when you've got to pick up your kid, you've got to pick up your kid. Also, the director with kids is totally willing to do something else to make up for it, but there really isn't anything she can do that works for everyone else required to attend the 'mandatory' event or an event that requires the directors to 'represent' our department.
All of the directors are smart, hard workers, and they'd really like to determine both a 'solution' and a framework or policy that covers it. Does the director with kids - who often gets a month notice about these events - just 'suck it up' and find childcare arrangements'? Do some of the other directors just see it as an example of flextime? Something else?
What might be fair for everyone? Is there some particular way in which we should be thinking about this and framing the situation? If the director with kids just needs to come to the event, what might help her see how this is different from other flextime situations? If it should just be seen as another variation of flextime, what might help the other directors not feel resentful that they are on the hook for early morning/after hour events (because they really can't bow out, and don't necessarily 'need' to, though they may want to). I think everyone realizes that they might see the situation differently, if no one had children, or more or all the directors also had childcare constraints.
This is in the US by the way, and this is my shiny brand new sock puppet account, as folks at my organization know I'm on the site.
Thanks for the all of the perspective: it really helps to get outside opinions.
We're a pretty small office of about 7. Lead director is male, rest of the directors of different areas office are female. It's a pretty nice place to work, and amazingly, we are all offered some pretty nice flexibility - the ability to come in a little late, or leave a little early, or work at home on certain days for any reason, from childcare to early dinner with friends. The mantra is: just make sure the work gets done.
This works for everyone, except around one issue. Occasionally, (about 10-12 times a year) there are mandatory overtime events (staff aren't hourly), where staff have to either come in before 9 or stay for an evening event from 5-6:30pm. When these happen, one co-worker who has small children asks to use her flextime to come in at 9am or leave at 5pm. It's putting the Lead Director in a bit of a pickle, because this flexibility is around a specific situation: specifically coming in early or staying late at a particular event that the rest of the team is required to be at. (This could include an event that requires multiple director's presence to 'represent' the department. In this situation while directors might rotate, this director would like to use her flextime to be excluded from such events.)
The lead director is trying to come up with something fair for everyone. No one else in the office has kids, but I suspect they aren't too gung ho about being at an early morning or after hours mandatory event either. But childcare issues are no joke - when you've got to pick up your kid, you've got to pick up your kid. Also, the director with kids is totally willing to do something else to make up for it, but there really isn't anything she can do that works for everyone else required to attend the 'mandatory' event or an event that requires the directors to 'represent' our department.
All of the directors are smart, hard workers, and they'd really like to determine both a 'solution' and a framework or policy that covers it. Does the director with kids - who often gets a month notice about these events - just 'suck it up' and find childcare arrangements'? Do some of the other directors just see it as an example of flextime? Something else?
What might be fair for everyone? Is there some particular way in which we should be thinking about this and framing the situation? If the director with kids just needs to come to the event, what might help her see how this is different from other flextime situations? If it should just be seen as another variation of flextime, what might help the other directors not feel resentful that they are on the hook for early morning/after hour events (because they really can't bow out, and don't necessarily 'need' to, though they may want to). I think everyone realizes that they might see the situation differently, if no one had children, or more or all the directors also had childcare constraints.
This is in the US by the way, and this is my shiny brand new sock puppet account, as folks at my organization know I'm on the site.
Thanks for the all of the perspective: it really helps to get outside opinions.
I'm not clear about what a "mandatory overtime event" is. Could you be more specific or give an example? Is there a specific reason why these events are scheduled outside of normal work hours?
posted by Kimberly at 11:48 AM on August 9, 2010
posted by Kimberly at 11:48 AM on August 9, 2010
Where I work, mandatory meetings are held during normal working hours, so no one has to either come in early or stay late. Even so, some people for various reasons are sometimes unable to attend, in which case, we just fill them in later. If you wanted to be elaborately meticulous, you could atually videotape the meeting so she could see the whole thing at a time convenient to her. Of course, this means that she does not actively participate at the time of the meeting, but nothing prevents her from contributing whatever suggestions, requests, complaints, information, etc., that she may have, at a later date. You might want to hold off on any final decisions about the subject of the meeting, until you have heard from her.
posted by grizzled at 11:49 AM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by grizzled at 11:49 AM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
You need to figure out objectively if she "needs" to be at these meetings. If she does then there is probabaly a good reason and that reason should be sufficient to convince her that this is different as far as using her flex time. For example she is the only one who can explain "X" to a client, and client can only be here after six, and will take business elsewhere if we dont meet with them. If she doesnt really need to be there then she should probabaly be allowed to use flex time.
posted by Busmick at 11:51 AM on August 9, 2010
posted by Busmick at 11:51 AM on August 9, 2010
Babysitter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:52 AM on August 9, 2010
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:52 AM on August 9, 2010
Response by poster: Sure Kimberly. It's a university, so mandatory = all staff meetings where our dean speaks to the whole staff, or a host of new student orientations, which often require representation from every unit, or university-wide events, once again where representation from our entire divisions is important to the dean.
posted by It's a Parasox at 11:52 AM on August 9, 2010
posted by It's a Parasox at 11:52 AM on August 9, 2010
Has she given a reason why she can't hire childcare on those days. I'm not understanding if she can't hire a babysitter for some reason...?
posted by tristeza at 11:59 AM on August 9, 2010
posted by tristeza at 11:59 AM on August 9, 2010
Mandatory is mandatory; she gets a sitter if her presence is really required.
If this is really about making everyone else feel better, then maybe make it so that every person can miss one "mandatory" event per whatever works (month/quarter/year)?
posted by dpx.mfx at 11:59 AM on August 9, 2010 [2 favorites]
If this is really about making everyone else feel better, then maybe make it so that every person can miss one "mandatory" event per whatever works (month/quarter/year)?
posted by dpx.mfx at 11:59 AM on August 9, 2010 [2 favorites]
If it's an all-staff meeting with the dean, babysitter.
For student orientations, wouldn't it usually be fine just to send her #2 person in the department? I'm a student, and to be frank, I really don't care if I'm meeting Head Honcho of Department X or Assistant Head Honcho of Department X during an orientation. If I want to make myself known for whatever reason, I'll do it during a less "generalized" time, but perhaps I don't understand what's going on during your orientations.
Of course, if she wants to put her best foot forward, she will find a babysitter or other childcare option for all of these events, but it sounds like she's decided they are not really a priority for her.
posted by asciident at 11:59 AM on August 9, 2010
For student orientations, wouldn't it usually be fine just to send her #2 person in the department? I'm a student, and to be frank, I really don't care if I'm meeting Head Honcho of Department X or Assistant Head Honcho of Department X during an orientation. If I want to make myself known for whatever reason, I'll do it during a less "generalized" time, but perhaps I don't understand what's going on during your orientations.
Of course, if she wants to put her best foot forward, she will find a babysitter or other childcare option for all of these events, but it sounds like she's decided they are not really a priority for her.
posted by asciident at 11:59 AM on August 9, 2010
Divorced working mom of 1 here - I think she's being unreasonable in expecting to be allowed to bow out of ALL of these events. Working while raising kids is a PAIN IN THE ASS, no doubt about it, but the FIRST thing you need to do when embarking upon this particular pain-in-the-ass is come up with a viable option for when working 9-5 isn't an option.
Working parents often get a bad rap - child-free coworkers grouse that they're constantly looking for special favors as a result of having spawn. And, in cases like this, the bitchy coworkers are RIGHT... and coworker-with-kids is giving other, more flexible working parents a bad name.
One other thing: if it's really, truly, no-doubt-about-it essential that EVERYONE attend, I'd make this known to her on no uncertain terms... but also maybe offer to let her leave a little early ANOTHER day that week to pick up some extra time with her kiddos. A little bit of goodwill on the part of the employer goes a LONG way towards making these sort of situations bearable.
posted by julthumbscrew at 12:02 PM on August 9, 2010
Working parents often get a bad rap - child-free coworkers grouse that they're constantly looking for special favors as a result of having spawn. And, in cases like this, the bitchy coworkers are RIGHT... and coworker-with-kids is giving other, more flexible working parents a bad name.
One other thing: if it's really, truly, no-doubt-about-it essential that EVERYONE attend, I'd make this known to her on no uncertain terms... but also maybe offer to let her leave a little early ANOTHER day that week to pick up some extra time with her kiddos. A little bit of goodwill on the part of the employer goes a LONG way towards making these sort of situations bearable.
posted by julthumbscrew at 12:02 PM on August 9, 2010
The fair and equitable thing is for the boss to discuss this privately with her and tell her she needs to be at the meetings. Period. I really have a hard time understanding why a salaried employ, in what appears to be a supportive and flexible workplace, would not understand that she needs to arrange childcare and get to the meetings. The fact she/he/they have children should not even be a consideration for what is a very modest and appropriate request (expectation) in a small office.
posted by rmhsinc at 12:05 PM on August 9, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by rmhsinc at 12:05 PM on August 9, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yes, babysitters exist, but once a month seems excessive to me personally. Maybe the dean could arrange on-site free care-giving (and the necessary transportation of course) for all staff that are having caregiving issues.
Mandatory overtime is a ridiculous concept that workers should push back on.
posted by saucysault at 12:09 PM on August 9, 2010 [12 favorites]
Mandatory overtime is a ridiculous concept that workers should push back on.
posted by saucysault at 12:09 PM on August 9, 2010 [12 favorites]
Has anyone spoken to the dean about this issue? If the dean is inflexible about the "entire division as representation" rule, there's probably not a fair way to handle this. The director in question would need to arrange for childcare on those occasions. If the dean is flexible given the issues this requirement is raising, maybe you could rotate who has to go to the events (and if representation is a big deal, maybe on the rotation days the directors who get a pass could send someone in their places)?
One way to approach this problem is to figure out what need is being served by the attendance of everyone at these events. Is it team bonding? A strong showing for prospective students? Something else? Then see if there are other ways the director with children can serve those functions or re-evaluate whether or not those needs are actually being met by requiring absolute attendance.
(This is probably neither her nor there, but it seems bizarre that mandatory staff meetings are being held outside of work hours in the first place. The other things, understandable, but staff meetings?)
posted by Kimberly at 12:10 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
One way to approach this problem is to figure out what need is being served by the attendance of everyone at these events. Is it team bonding? A strong showing for prospective students? Something else? Then see if there are other ways the director with children can serve those functions or re-evaluate whether or not those needs are actually being met by requiring absolute attendance.
(This is probably neither her nor there, but it seems bizarre that mandatory staff meetings are being held outside of work hours in the first place. The other things, understandable, but staff meetings?)
posted by Kimberly at 12:10 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a stay-at-home mom with occasional evening commitments: evening babysitters can be damn hard to find, particularly ones who can drive (and therefore can pick up your kids from daycare). It's not a matter of just calling Suzie down the block to skip by for a couple of hours, and it's certainly not free; would you be willing to pay $50 to attend one of these "mandatory" events?
That having been said, if she has plenty of advance notice -- and if this is a university, with a ready availability of undergrad or even grad students who might be willing to earn a little scratch to watch the director's kids -- she ought to be able to work something out. But this is tops on the list of why I find mandatory events outside of work hours to be dumb, dumb, dumb.
posted by KathrynT at 12:10 PM on August 9, 2010 [8 favorites]
That having been said, if she has plenty of advance notice -- and if this is a university, with a ready availability of undergrad or even grad students who might be willing to earn a little scratch to watch the director's kids -- she ought to be able to work something out. But this is tops on the list of why I find mandatory events outside of work hours to be dumb, dumb, dumb.
posted by KathrynT at 12:10 PM on August 9, 2010 [8 favorites]
I don't think flex-time should apply to this situation - the rules should be very specific about when it applies. And unless this person explicitly has a clause about it in their employment contact, they should hire a sitter and attend the meetings.
posted by meepmeow at 12:10 PM on August 9, 2010
posted by meepmeow at 12:10 PM on August 9, 2010
I am guessing that the flextime person doesn't feel her attendance at the meetings is vital to her job function or the smooth operation of your unit.
If she's not right, you should find some way of explaining to her that "as long as the work gets done" does, unfortunately, include attendance at these inconvenient meetings. If she's a conscientious worker, and you explain it adequately, she'll step up.
If she is right -- really right, not just "oh, but it would look better for us if you were there" -- then just let it go, because if she's a good worker otherwise, it's best to maintain her job satisfaction.
If this is the case, though, you should find some way to "balance the scales" so that the inconveniences other employees are tolerating (and she is not) do not become a sore spot. Perhaps she could gain some extra small not particularly pleasant duty that others do not want to do, but could be done during office hours, and this "deal" is explained to everyone?
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:10 PM on August 9, 2010
If she's not right, you should find some way of explaining to her that "as long as the work gets done" does, unfortunately, include attendance at these inconvenient meetings. If she's a conscientious worker, and you explain it adequately, she'll step up.
If she is right -- really right, not just "oh, but it would look better for us if you were there" -- then just let it go, because if she's a good worker otherwise, it's best to maintain her job satisfaction.
If this is the case, though, you should find some way to "balance the scales" so that the inconveniences other employees are tolerating (and she is not) do not become a sore spot. Perhaps she could gain some extra small not particularly pleasant duty that others do not want to do, but could be done during office hours, and this "deal" is explained to everyone?
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:10 PM on August 9, 2010
We have flextime and mandatory off-hours work in my department. No one likes having to do the mandatory off-hours stuff and if my department repeatedly let one person out of the loathesome obligation we all have, most of the rest of us would be pretty unhappy at the apparent unfairness of that. It's hard to imagine why she can't line up alternate child care arrangements 10-12 times a year when she has a month to do so. Do you have any insight into why she feels that she should be exempt from these duties?
posted by Maisie at 12:12 PM on August 9, 2010
posted by Maisie at 12:12 PM on August 9, 2010
It's a university. Nothing is mandatory after 5pm. Why? because it's when 'everybody is available' or 'for scheduling convenience'? Really? I'm skeptical. It's the Dean? So what? He or she is just a human being like everyone else.
Is there anything in the contract that indicates that attendance is mandatory and that this event must occur after 5pm? I'd be surprised. If not, then it's not mandatory and she can feel free to leave, and should expect no repercussions for having done so.
Is it really really mandatory? Then have the Dean's office or the department pick up the babysitting tab. It can happen.
At my university this happens and at a 'mandatory' (but not in the contract) annual retreat, it is common for parents to arrive late after they drop their kids off at school and to leave in time before dinner (even though the event continues on). At the department holiday party, the department picks up the babysitting tab so both parents can attend.
posted by kch at 12:16 PM on August 9, 2010 [6 favorites]
Is there anything in the contract that indicates that attendance is mandatory and that this event must occur after 5pm? I'd be surprised. If not, then it's not mandatory and she can feel free to leave, and should expect no repercussions for having done so.
Is it really really mandatory? Then have the Dean's office or the department pick up the babysitting tab. It can happen.
At my university this happens and at a 'mandatory' (but not in the contract) annual retreat, it is common for parents to arrive late after they drop their kids off at school and to leave in time before dinner (even though the event continues on). At the department holiday party, the department picks up the babysitting tab so both parents can attend.
posted by kch at 12:16 PM on August 9, 2010 [6 favorites]
Did she know about this strange mandatory staff meeting after hours before she was hired?
If so, then I would mention that she knew about this when she was hired and she needs to make arrangements.
Personally, if i worked at a place where there was frequent mandatory after hour meetings, I would try my best to opt out because that sounds kind of ridiculous unless you're a doctor or something.
posted by KogeLiz at 12:16 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
If so, then I would mention that she knew about this when she was hired and she needs to make arrangements.
Personally, if i worked at a place where there was frequent mandatory after hour meetings, I would try my best to opt out because that sounds kind of ridiculous unless you're a doctor or something.
posted by KogeLiz at 12:16 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
Are these younger children in daycare or older children in elementary school?
Daycare is expensive. Sitters are expensive. Sitters in my area are $12/hour and the few I use are booked up two months out. If I wanted a babysitter for September, I'd have had to have let them know weeks ago. I would also not be able to pay for both a sitter and daycare to work an evening event. If she is a single mother, this could be an actual financial hardship on her and that may be part of the problem. Heck, if she's partnered it could still be too much financially.
I also work in a university, and I agree that 10 - 12 evening meetings in an academic year is excessive. My own university has half that many meetings for all administrators and all faculty and they take place during the day.
One way to approach this problem, honestly, is have one person from your division attend a few meetings. Or a few people attend each meeting, but nobody attends all the meetings.
And I also have to ask, is it essential that she attends these meetings? What value is there in her attending? If she is required to go to these meetings, but it's not exactly vital or critical for her in particular to attend, maybe the department should look more closely at whether she even should attend them.
posted by zizzle at 12:17 PM on August 9, 2010 [5 favorites]
Daycare is expensive. Sitters are expensive. Sitters in my area are $12/hour and the few I use are booked up two months out. If I wanted a babysitter for September, I'd have had to have let them know weeks ago. I would also not be able to pay for both a sitter and daycare to work an evening event. If she is a single mother, this could be an actual financial hardship on her and that may be part of the problem. Heck, if she's partnered it could still be too much financially.
I also work in a university, and I agree that 10 - 12 evening meetings in an academic year is excessive. My own university has half that many meetings for all administrators and all faculty and they take place during the day.
One way to approach this problem, honestly, is have one person from your division attend a few meetings. Or a few people attend each meeting, but nobody attends all the meetings.
And I also have to ask, is it essential that she attends these meetings? What value is there in her attending? If she is required to go to these meetings, but it's not exactly vital or critical for her in particular to attend, maybe the department should look more closely at whether she even should attend them.
posted by zizzle at 12:17 PM on August 9, 2010 [5 favorites]
The rest of the office should not have to suffer for her lifestyle choices. She needs to suck it up and get a babysitter or get a new job.
posted by brand-gnu at 12:23 PM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by brand-gnu at 12:23 PM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
childcare is her business. being there for required work events is her problem. if she can't manage those issues she should be in a job that is strict 9-5. she'll probably find that she doesn't get lax work at home times and the other perks of working in a mostly accommodating office.
yes, getting a babysitter can be hard and expensive. yes, being a parent makes juggling work and home even harder. however, it's not fair to everyone else who has lives outside of work to be constantly picking up her slack.
posted by nadawi at 12:32 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
yes, getting a babysitter can be hard and expensive. yes, being a parent makes juggling work and home even harder. however, it's not fair to everyone else who has lives outside of work to be constantly picking up her slack.
posted by nadawi at 12:32 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
People do have lives outside of work, and I'd say it's unfair to EVERYONE to expect people to be at work during non working hours.
posted by eas98 at 12:35 PM on August 9, 2010 [23 favorites]
posted by eas98 at 12:35 PM on August 9, 2010 [23 favorites]
Someone should explain the meaning of the word mandatory to this woman. If these meetings really are that important then she'll just have to suck it up and go to them, however it does sound more like she isn't actually required at these events but everyone else is miffed that they have to go and she doesn't and they want her to have to suffer too.
If you're talking 'fair' then it has to be the same rule for everyone, she shouldn't get special treatment because of her personal life. I would explain to her that if she is allowed to use her flexi-time to get out of boring out of hours events that she doesn't want to go to then everyone has to be allowed to and then no-one would go. This is different from other flex-time arrangements because its not work that can be done any time, she can't do it in advance or make up for it later, its something that is only happening during those hours, if she isn't turning up to them the 'work' isn't getting done.
posted by missmagenta at 12:35 PM on August 9, 2010
If you're talking 'fair' then it has to be the same rule for everyone, she shouldn't get special treatment because of her personal life. I would explain to her that if she is allowed to use her flexi-time to get out of boring out of hours events that she doesn't want to go to then everyone has to be allowed to and then no-one would go. This is different from other flex-time arrangements because its not work that can be done any time, she can't do it in advance or make up for it later, its something that is only happening during those hours, if she isn't turning up to them the 'work' isn't getting done.
posted by missmagenta at 12:35 PM on August 9, 2010
(This is probably neither here nor there, but it seems bizarre that mandatory staff meetings are being held outside of work hours in the first place. The other things, understandable, but staff meetings?)
I think Kimberly's point is both here and there. The working world has agreed upon a convention of defined working hours for a reason - that's when you expect other businesses to be working, that's when public transportation runs, that's when you can get reliable child care, etc. The university is simply choosing to ignore the convention - not when it needs to make an exception, but as a regular part of its schedule. Having children is not some bizarre condition requiring accommodation - it's a fairly normal part of life, and it's not unreasonable to expect that a workplace - at least one that doesn't involve shift work and on-call and that sort of thing - will generally function within working hours, allowing employees to make whatever arrangements they must to fulfill their obligations.
That said - it's not the university that will lose if this employee is allowed to bow out of this altogether, it's her colleagues, and it's not fair to them if she skips ALL of these events. I think a rule should be made that anyone's flex time can be applied to after-hours events for a maximum of, say, a third of all of these events for the year. That will mean that she'll have these in her pocket for when she can't get a sitter - and others will as well for when they have family or other obligations that make it a hardship to work outside of working hours. And if everyone in the department starts using this policy to reduce the number of after-hours events from once a month to a slightly more tolerable 8 times a year, then GOOD.
And someone should send a memo to HR to the effect that their policy is not just family-unfriendly, but life-unfriendly, and they should pull themselves together and figure out how to get their work done within WORK HOURS.
posted by Betsy Vane at 12:35 PM on August 9, 2010 [6 favorites]
I think Kimberly's point is both here and there. The working world has agreed upon a convention of defined working hours for a reason - that's when you expect other businesses to be working, that's when public transportation runs, that's when you can get reliable child care, etc. The university is simply choosing to ignore the convention - not when it needs to make an exception, but as a regular part of its schedule. Having children is not some bizarre condition requiring accommodation - it's a fairly normal part of life, and it's not unreasonable to expect that a workplace - at least one that doesn't involve shift work and on-call and that sort of thing - will generally function within working hours, allowing employees to make whatever arrangements they must to fulfill their obligations.
That said - it's not the university that will lose if this employee is allowed to bow out of this altogether, it's her colleagues, and it's not fair to them if she skips ALL of these events. I think a rule should be made that anyone's flex time can be applied to after-hours events for a maximum of, say, a third of all of these events for the year. That will mean that she'll have these in her pocket for when she can't get a sitter - and others will as well for when they have family or other obligations that make it a hardship to work outside of working hours. And if everyone in the department starts using this policy to reduce the number of after-hours events from once a month to a slightly more tolerable 8 times a year, then GOOD.
And someone should send a memo to HR to the effect that their policy is not just family-unfriendly, but life-unfriendly, and they should pull themselves together and figure out how to get their work done within WORK HOURS.
posted by Betsy Vane at 12:35 PM on August 9, 2010 [6 favorites]
I've been chewing on this question for a bit now, and I think it all comes back to this statement:
"The lead director is trying to come up with something fair for everyone."
Mandatory meetings don't happen during non-business hours. That's not fair for everyone, because some people have family that need them during non-business hours. Not everyone has such family, but if they did, I can guarantee that these meetings wouldn't be scheduled at that time. Ergo, having mandatory meetings at that time isn't fair for everyone.
posted by Phyltre at 12:40 PM on August 9, 2010 [21 favorites]
"The lead director is trying to come up with something fair for everyone."
Mandatory meetings don't happen during non-business hours. That's not fair for everyone, because some people have family that need them during non-business hours. Not everyone has such family, but if they did, I can guarantee that these meetings wouldn't be scheduled at that time. Ergo, having mandatory meetings at that time isn't fair for everyone.
posted by Phyltre at 12:40 PM on August 9, 2010 [21 favorites]
Do you guys have a contract, and, if so, does it have provisions for when flex time may be used? Under my contract, we can't use it when we are required by work obligations to be in the office. This seems completely reasonable to me. If she has to be there, then she has to be there.
Depending on how your flex time works, can she exchange the extra evening hours for taking some time off during regular work hours, thus possibly saving on child care costs that way? Regardless, I don't think having kids should get you out of crap duties at your job, and I'd be pretty irritated at a co-worker who assumed it did.
posted by Mavri at 12:42 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
Depending on how your flex time works, can she exchange the extra evening hours for taking some time off during regular work hours, thus possibly saving on child care costs that way? Regardless, I don't think having kids should get you out of crap duties at your job, and I'd be pretty irritated at a co-worker who assumed it did.
posted by Mavri at 12:42 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've worked in three different workplaces (teacher, industry association, govt manager) where it was necessary to work past 5. It just goes with the territory.
Finding a babysitter would seem to be the best bet.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:43 PM on August 9, 2010
Finding a babysitter would seem to be the best bet.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:43 PM on August 9, 2010
If these are "mandatory", there must be some repercussions for her absence. Otherwise, why would anyone go at all? It doesn't seem like you should have to figure out anything- she either comes to the meetings like everyone else, or she doesn't and loses out on important info/ is sanctioned in some way. And if it's okay for her to use her flex time to get out of meetings, then everyone else can too, so that's not unfair.
Yes, childcare can be expensive, but all working parents grapple with issues like this at some point. She shouldn't get out of the meetings that everyone else must attend just because having children is often more complicated and costly than not having kids. That's part and parcel of raising a family. It doesn't even seem like your co-worker is making a good faith effort to attend even part of the meetings.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:44 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes, childcare can be expensive, but all working parents grapple with issues like this at some point. She shouldn't get out of the meetings that everyone else must attend just because having children is often more complicated and costly than not having kids. That's part and parcel of raising a family. It doesn't even seem like your co-worker is making a good faith effort to attend even part of the meetings.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:44 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
Father of three here. I have missed many school plays, games, and concerts for work. Sometimes on a moments notice. If I had 30 days notice, the only reason to come back to the office the second time I missed a meeting that was a mandatory part of my job would be to clean out my desk. Sure these meetings may be excessive or a waste, but they are part of the job and everyone else is attending. I would have her boss sit her down and explain that everyone has to attend. While they understand the occasional miss, a pattern is not acceptable. If that does not happen, as a protest, the next meeting, I would have everyone ask to take flex time to miss. If insists she cannot make them, demote her to a job that does not require meetings after 5:00.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:45 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:45 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
Fine, an all-staff meeting needs everyone -- why is it not during business hours? Student events are often in the evening, but if there are 7 staff members, and you need 2 per event, you're down to maybe 2 of those a year, which is feasible.
What do other offices do, when they have people with childcare issues? Can the university hire students to provide on-site childcare for these meetings?
posted by jeather at 12:45 PM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
What do other offices do, when they have people with childcare issues? Can the university hire students to provide on-site childcare for these meetings?
posted by jeather at 12:45 PM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
Seconding kch that if it's not in the contract then it's not mandatory.
At some places I've worked with flexitime, there are "core hours" when everyone is expected to be in the office, and mandatory meetings are scheduled within those hours.
If they want someone to "represent the department" outside those hours, the trick is to find someone who wouldn't mind a really long lie-in one day in return for coming in late.
posted by emilyw at 12:46 PM on August 9, 2010
At some places I've worked with flexitime, there are "core hours" when everyone is expected to be in the office, and mandatory meetings are scheduled within those hours.
If they want someone to "represent the department" outside those hours, the trick is to find someone who wouldn't mind a really long lie-in one day in return for coming in late.
posted by emilyw at 12:46 PM on August 9, 2010
the director probably has no control over what the dean schedules or orientation times or university wide events. the relaxed approach to flex time and at home time and just get the work done mentality should make up for the fact that there are events outside of "business hours". some people will like this trade off, and some people will try to abuse it and won't mind using their kids as a reason.
posted by nadawi at 12:46 PM on August 9, 2010
posted by nadawi at 12:46 PM on August 9, 2010
To sound in on another aspect of the question, it might actually be better if she simply didn't show up rather than try to use flextime. Flextime is, as far as I understand it, not quite as flexible as it sounds. My employer lets employees flex, but that means coming in for a defined extra period four days a week and leaving at a defined point one day a week. You can't build up a "bank" of flex time and just not show up for three days, or stay four hours late one night a week to take Friday afternoon off, etc. It works in precisely the way it's laid out in the employee handbook, is subject to managerial approval, and is not easily transformed into something which could permit this sort of thing.
This is significant, because not only is she asking to be excused from something that everyone else has to do because of her kids,* but she could easily be abusing an institutional policy to do it. That's going to cause an additional layer of HR problems which, depending on how your institutional handles such issues, may wind up being more of a hassle than it might seem.
Look, it's tough to have kids, and it's tougher to work while raising them, but it's just something people have to deal with. Employers would be well-advised to work with their employees to find equitable ways of handling these issues, but employees would be well advised not to ask for inequitable ways of handling them, which seems to be what's happening here. The requirement to stay late once a month is arbitrary and a pain in the ass, but it isn't unreasonable or unduly burdensome, i.e. it's the sort of arbitrary pain in the ass for which employers are allowed to ask.
*Giving people with kids permission to skip work that single people or people without kids don't have is arguably tantamount to discrimination based on family status. It would take a pretty mean-spirited sonnuvabitch to actually sue an employer over this, but we all know that there are plenty of mean-spirited sonnuvabitches out there, and this sort of disparate treatment can create some pretty intense hard feelings.
posted by valkyryn at 12:49 PM on August 9, 2010
This is significant, because not only is she asking to be excused from something that everyone else has to do because of her kids,* but she could easily be abusing an institutional policy to do it. That's going to cause an additional layer of HR problems which, depending on how your institutional handles such issues, may wind up being more of a hassle than it might seem.
Look, it's tough to have kids, and it's tougher to work while raising them, but it's just something people have to deal with. Employers would be well-advised to work with their employees to find equitable ways of handling these issues, but employees would be well advised not to ask for inequitable ways of handling them, which seems to be what's happening here. The requirement to stay late once a month is arbitrary and a pain in the ass, but it isn't unreasonable or unduly burdensome, i.e. it's the sort of arbitrary pain in the ass for which employers are allowed to ask.
*Giving people with kids permission to skip work that single people or people without kids don't have is arguably tantamount to discrimination based on family status. It would take a pretty mean-spirited sonnuvabitch to actually sue an employer over this, but we all know that there are plenty of mean-spirited sonnuvabitches out there, and this sort of disparate treatment can create some pretty intense hard feelings.
posted by valkyryn at 12:49 PM on August 9, 2010
Is there anything in the contract that indicates that attendance is mandatory and that this event must occur after 5pm?
Most employment relationships, even at universities, are not contractual. Unless this person is faculty, it's possible, even likely, that there is no contract to reference here. But even if there is, I wouldn't be surprised if the university had ample room in some sort of catch-all clause.
posted by valkyryn at 12:51 PM on August 9, 2010
Most employment relationships, even at universities, are not contractual. Unless this person is faculty, it's possible, even likely, that there is no contract to reference here. But even if there is, I wouldn't be surprised if the university had ample room in some sort of catch-all clause.
posted by valkyryn at 12:51 PM on August 9, 2010
I do not have children but have been in situations on small teams with team members who did.
Mandatory attendance at an event after hours 12 times a year is the type of obligation that should be revealed before hiring, not after. It isn't once, or twice, or once a quarter, or the type of thing that everyone understands might happen or could be part of their job (although if this is the type of job where someone accepting work in this department should expect, correct me). 12 times a year is a lot. Once a month is a lot. That could run anywhere from $600-1k per year in extra childcare expenses, depending on where you live.
Is this university policy, or your department's policy, that the entire department must be present for all of these events? What do other departments do? She can't be the only single parent with these issues (she may be the only one who feels comfortable enough to speak up about it).
I think fair would be to let her out of X number of the events but to extend that to everyone - everyone has to do four, pick them now - including the coworker with children. 4 in a year is not a burden.
I had a team where one coworker had to leave at 4:45 or she would not get home in time to get her child out of daycare. She had emergency backup but it was truly EMERGENCY. She did, however, make up for her time away by always being the first one in the office (between 7:30 & 8 where most people arrived between 9:30-10) and picked up the overnight mess from Asia so that when everyone got there between, oh, 8:30-10, things were smoothed out and we didn't have to do it and we could all get right to work. She didn't come to work and drink coffee or read the paper, she WORKED. That extra courtesy she extended the team showed us she wanted to be a team player & so when things arose during the year (sick kids, etc.) everyone was always willing to help her, cover for her, do work for her, finish running scripts, attend meetings, etc. I have worked with other people who just said "i have kids" and that was the extent of their willingness to help the team out.
posted by micawber at 12:51 PM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
Mandatory attendance at an event after hours 12 times a year is the type of obligation that should be revealed before hiring, not after. It isn't once, or twice, or once a quarter, or the type of thing that everyone understands might happen or could be part of their job (although if this is the type of job where someone accepting work in this department should expect, correct me). 12 times a year is a lot. Once a month is a lot. That could run anywhere from $600-1k per year in extra childcare expenses, depending on where you live.
Is this university policy, or your department's policy, that the entire department must be present for all of these events? What do other departments do? She can't be the only single parent with these issues (she may be the only one who feels comfortable enough to speak up about it).
I think fair would be to let her out of X number of the events but to extend that to everyone - everyone has to do four, pick them now - including the coworker with children. 4 in a year is not a burden.
I had a team where one coworker had to leave at 4:45 or she would not get home in time to get her child out of daycare. She had emergency backup but it was truly EMERGENCY. She did, however, make up for her time away by always being the first one in the office (between 7:30 & 8 where most people arrived between 9:30-10) and picked up the overnight mess from Asia so that when everyone got there between, oh, 8:30-10, things were smoothed out and we didn't have to do it and we could all get right to work. She didn't come to work and drink coffee or read the paper, she WORKED. That extra courtesy she extended the team showed us she wanted to be a team player & so when things arose during the year (sick kids, etc.) everyone was always willing to help her, cover for her, do work for her, finish running scripts, attend meetings, etc. I have worked with other people who just said "i have kids" and that was the extent of their willingness to help the team out.
posted by micawber at 12:51 PM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
Father of three here. I have missed many school plays, games, and concerts for work. Sometimes on a moments notice.Out of curiosity, would your kids' mother say the same thing? Because my sense is that often when men brag about neglecting their children in favor of work, it's because they can count on the children's mommy putting her kids first.
Having said that, when similar issues come up at my job, the parents in the office seem to be expected to come up with some sort of childcare arrangement. (And they're not the only people who are inconvenienced. People who carpool or take public transit, for instance, often have to pay cab fare or the super-high daily parking rates when we're required to stay here after the bus stops running.) We're only expected to stay late a few times a year, though. I'm wondering if it would be possible to cut down on the number of times per year that each director had to be there. Could one or two people, rather than the entire department, represent you at some of these events?
posted by craichead at 12:53 PM on August 9, 2010 [10 favorites]
If this was a few times a year, I think that asking her to find a sitter would be okay, but once a month is a huge challenge.
Babysitters can come to your house, but finding one that can go to daycare and get the kids (and also be registered as an authorized picker-up) is another thing.
posted by k8t at 1:00 PM on August 9, 2010 [5 favorites]
Babysitters can come to your house, but finding one that can go to daycare and get the kids (and also be registered as an authorized picker-up) is another thing.
posted by k8t at 1:00 PM on August 9, 2010 [5 favorites]
"that often when men brag about neglecting their children in favor of work, it's because they can count on the children's mommy putting her kids first. "
that's a really shitty thing to say. he wasn't "bragging" about "neglecting" his children - he was stating that in a working environment your kids aren't an acceptable excuse to not do your job and that if he had missed mandatory meetings, no matter what the reason, he'd be out of a job.
fighting for equality in the workplace means that you can't give special treatment to women with kids. that's discriminatory.
posted by nadawi at 1:04 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
that's a really shitty thing to say. he wasn't "bragging" about "neglecting" his children - he was stating that in a working environment your kids aren't an acceptable excuse to not do your job and that if he had missed mandatory meetings, no matter what the reason, he'd be out of a job.
fighting for equality in the workplace means that you can't give special treatment to women with kids. that's discriminatory.
posted by nadawi at 1:04 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
craichead: "
I will rephrase that. I am a divorced father of three, but that is not relevant. Because I had a wife I should not mind missing because of work? Yeah, right. The panicked call to the neighbor to get my kids happens to married men too. What if there are two working parents? Should the mommy [your term] not show up at a meeting? By the way, I did not read anywhere that this parent does not have a spouse to help out.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:08 PM on August 9, 2010
Father of three here. I have missed many school plays, games, and concerts for work. Sometimes on a moments notice.Out of curiosity, would your kids' mother say the same thing? Because my sense is that often when men brag about neglecting their children in favor of work, it's because they can count on the children's mommy putting her kids first..."
I will rephrase that. I am a divorced father of three, but that is not relevant. Because I had a wife I should not mind missing because of work? Yeah, right. The panicked call to the neighbor to get my kids happens to married men too. What if there are two working parents? Should the mommy [your term] not show up at a meeting? By the way, I did not read anywhere that this parent does not have a spouse to help out.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:08 PM on August 9, 2010
When you have kids, sometimes you have to make arrangements. Everyone in my department is salaried and we generally work on a 9-5 basis but do have things that are at different hours sometimes. One woman who I work closely with has a toddler. We generally don't expect her to volunteer for things that are after-hours and understand that her time is a little less flexible. But there are some things that are mandatory and she makes arrangements.
I find it hard to believe that your coworker can't find a babysitter one evening a month.
posted by radioamy at 1:08 PM on August 9, 2010
I find it hard to believe that your coworker can't find a babysitter one evening a month.
posted by radioamy at 1:08 PM on August 9, 2010
It's a Parasox: "It's a university, so mandatory = all staff meetings where our dean speaks to the whole staff, or a host of new student orientations, which often require representation from every unit, or university-wide events, once again where representation from our entire divisions is important to the dean."
Oh jesus. Get a damn video camera and record the thing if the dean's speech is so important. The reason there's so much push back from other employees is because everyone knows there's no good reason for these mandatory meetings, where no information of importance is distributed and their input is not sought. My opinion is that if nobody mentions you by name during the event, it's not truly mandatory. The obvious solution is for the Lead Director to have a talk with the Dean about "mandatory attendance."
But that doesn't answer the question, which is, how do you deal with this demand for visibility? First off, if you let this person use flex time for exceptional cause, people without this cause will resent it. Even though the employer is being compensated by charging flex time, they'll resent it because the mandatory event is not a productive use of their time; nobody's performance review (or tenure case) will mention the phrase "perfect attendance record of university events", and no short term project will be completed as a result of attendance.
One outside the box solution is to look at onsite childcare. Your University may already provide this, which is helpful for single mothers taking night classes, as studies show that a lack of reliable childcare is a significant impediment, costing them time off the clock and even jobs in some cases. Assuming that's not available, well, at least the cost of child care is tax deductible as a work related expense.
posted by pwnguin at 1:13 PM on August 9, 2010 [5 favorites]
Oh jesus. Get a damn video camera and record the thing if the dean's speech is so important. The reason there's so much push back from other employees is because everyone knows there's no good reason for these mandatory meetings, where no information of importance is distributed and their input is not sought. My opinion is that if nobody mentions you by name during the event, it's not truly mandatory. The obvious solution is for the Lead Director to have a talk with the Dean about "mandatory attendance."
But that doesn't answer the question, which is, how do you deal with this demand for visibility? First off, if you let this person use flex time for exceptional cause, people without this cause will resent it. Even though the employer is being compensated by charging flex time, they'll resent it because the mandatory event is not a productive use of their time; nobody's performance review (or tenure case) will mention the phrase "perfect attendance record of university events", and no short term project will be completed as a result of attendance.
One outside the box solution is to look at onsite childcare. Your University may already provide this, which is helpful for single mothers taking night classes, as studies show that a lack of reliable childcare is a significant impediment, costing them time off the clock and even jobs in some cases. Assuming that's not available, well, at least the cost of child care is tax deductible as a work related expense.
posted by pwnguin at 1:13 PM on August 9, 2010 [5 favorites]
This is on a college campus? Then this is a job for a work-study student! The dean's office should be paying a work study to watch the kids in an office, maybe with a movie and a snack thrown in.
posted by pickypicky at 1:21 PM on August 9, 2010
posted by pickypicky at 1:21 PM on August 9, 2010
Then this is a job for a work-study student! The dean's office should be paying a work study to watch the kids in an office, maybe with a movie and a snack thrown in.That's a good idea, but I think it might be logistically difficult, what with shrinking budgets, liability issues, and the fact that you can't set up a daycare facility just anywhere.
It would be worth looking into, though.
posted by craichead at 1:23 PM on August 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A few comments removed, take it to email or something but stop derailing the thread.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:31 PM on August 9, 2010
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:31 PM on August 9, 2010
Occasionally, (about 10-12 times a year)
Every month is not "occasionally".
What might be fair for everyone?
Fair for everyone is not scheduling meetings after business hours.
Kids or no, I'd be using my flextime as well if you kept asking me to stay 2 hours after work.
posted by madajb at 1:36 PM on August 9, 2010 [8 favorites]
Every month is not "occasionally".
What might be fair for everyone?
Fair for everyone is not scheduling meetings after business hours.
Kids or no, I'd be using my flextime as well if you kept asking me to stay 2 hours after work.
posted by madajb at 1:36 PM on August 9, 2010 [8 favorites]
I suspect, having read university job listings, that "mandatory meetings after 5 p.m." may be in the job description, especially if you aren't hourly. It ain't fair, and it may very well be stupid to require everyone to have after work meetings once a month, but it sounds like a job requirement. Arguing on the green that "it's not fair" or "it sucks" is pointless because none of us here, OP included, can change the policy. No exceptions, everyone "works" late once a month, period, kids or no. I think it sucks to have to always track down the babysitter on her part, but I can't think of any way to make it less unfair for the entire group other than to force Mom to have to go, just like everyone else who is forced to go listen to the dean.
Actually what I think would make it fair would be to offer childcare for those stuck at the meetings, but I doubt that's going to happen either.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:43 PM on August 9, 2010
Actually what I think would make it fair would be to offer childcare for those stuck at the meetings, but I doubt that's going to happen either.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:43 PM on August 9, 2010
Can she use her flex time to leave a little early, pick up the kid from day care, and drop him or her off at a sitter's place? Several people have mentioned the difficulty of finding a sitter who can also pick up a kid from day care, but that particular problem seems pretty easily solved, to me.
posted by hought20 at 1:49 PM on August 9, 2010
posted by hought20 at 1:49 PM on August 9, 2010
No one else in the office has kids
In your office. But if this is a University, surely she is not the only person at the entire University who is faced with child-care challenges. Have you asked around at other offices? If may be that if enough people indicated an interest, some sort of babysitting co-op could be arranged across departments? Or if it's enough of an issue, somebody could bring it to the attention of the Dean's office. Just because she's one out of seven in your office doesn't mean she's alone in a vacuum. Other offices may have figured out alternatives that work better than using flex time.
And w/r/t her leaving early to pick up her kids and take them home to drop off with a sitter, some people have long commutes that could turn that into a two or three hour outing, and would also mean pulling her children out of paid-for daycare and paying for a babysitter for the same time period, ouch. That could add up to a serious financial hit over the course of a year.
That being said, it doesn't seem right that she's always using flex time to get out of a rotating assignment among the other directors. It would seem more fair if *everyone* were given the alternative of using flex time to get out of a fixed number of "mandatory" events, or if the number of "mandatory" events was decreased but then truly mandatory for all.
posted by ambrosia at 2:21 PM on August 9, 2010 [2 favorites]
In your office. But if this is a University, surely she is not the only person at the entire University who is faced with child-care challenges. Have you asked around at other offices? If may be that if enough people indicated an interest, some sort of babysitting co-op could be arranged across departments? Or if it's enough of an issue, somebody could bring it to the attention of the Dean's office. Just because she's one out of seven in your office doesn't mean she's alone in a vacuum. Other offices may have figured out alternatives that work better than using flex time.
And w/r/t her leaving early to pick up her kids and take them home to drop off with a sitter, some people have long commutes that could turn that into a two or three hour outing, and would also mean pulling her children out of paid-for daycare and paying for a babysitter for the same time period, ouch. That could add up to a serious financial hit over the course of a year.
That being said, it doesn't seem right that she's always using flex time to get out of a rotating assignment among the other directors. It would seem more fair if *everyone* were given the alternative of using flex time to get out of a fixed number of "mandatory" events, or if the number of "mandatory" events was decreased but then truly mandatory for all.
posted by ambrosia at 2:21 PM on August 9, 2010 [2 favorites]
some people have long commutes that could turn that into a two or three hour outing, and would also mean pulling her children out of paid-for daycare and paying for a babysitter for the same time period, ouch
Oh, true, I was thinking in terms of my little city. Not the perfect answer I imagined.
posted by hought20 at 2:46 PM on August 9, 2010
Oh, true, I was thinking in terms of my little city. Not the perfect answer I imagined.
posted by hought20 at 2:46 PM on August 9, 2010
Response by poster: Thank you everyone, for your thoughtful answers.
Just to clarify, one of the things that happens at my uni. is that the campus is *technically* open from 8am-5pm, with an hour for lunch. Within that, depending on your job function (and if you're not in the union), you can come in from 9-5, and just not take lunch. Many staff, including the directors in the office, choose to do 9-5. (as part of the flextime) Or, because it's about doing the work until it get's done, that could be 9:30-5:30, sometimes 9-6 and then 9-4 the next day to make up for it.
The dean's once a semester mandatory all staff meetings start at 8am, which is *technically* before many of the directors arrive (they arrive at 9am).
Also, we checked. All of the directors have language in their contract about 'occasional after-hours and weekends'. A specific number of events is not given, however. We just figured it out to be about 10-12 times a year.
Thanks again.
posted by It's a Parasox at 2:51 PM on August 9, 2010
Just to clarify, one of the things that happens at my uni. is that the campus is *technically* open from 8am-5pm, with an hour for lunch. Within that, depending on your job function (and if you're not in the union), you can come in from 9-5, and just not take lunch. Many staff, including the directors in the office, choose to do 9-5. (as part of the flextime) Or, because it's about doing the work until it get's done, that could be 9:30-5:30, sometimes 9-6 and then 9-4 the next day to make up for it.
The dean's once a semester mandatory all staff meetings start at 8am, which is *technically* before many of the directors arrive (they arrive at 9am).
Also, we checked. All of the directors have language in their contract about 'occasional after-hours and weekends'. A specific number of events is not given, however. We just figured it out to be about 10-12 times a year.
Thanks again.
posted by It's a Parasox at 2:51 PM on August 9, 2010
So there's both an early (8am) and a late (5pm) event, and she can't attend either?
Can you alter the event so that attending is more rewarding for those who do attend, such that they don't resent the woman getting out of it?
For example, the best-attended lunchtime meetings are those with a free lunch included; could you offer attendees a bottle of wine to take home to their families or something like that? Or could you count the event as triple time for purposes of flex-time?
posted by Mike1024 at 2:54 PM on August 9, 2010
Can you alter the event so that attending is more rewarding for those who do attend, such that they don't resent the woman getting out of it?
For example, the best-attended lunchtime meetings are those with a free lunch included; could you offer attendees a bottle of wine to take home to their families or something like that? Or could you count the event as triple time for purposes of flex-time?
posted by Mike1024 at 2:54 PM on August 9, 2010
Once a month is far more than occasional.
In fact, once a month is regular. I'm surprised there hasn't been a faculty-administrator revolt. The deans in my college would never be able to get away with insisting on that many meetings outside of normal hours.
posted by zizzle at 4:13 PM on August 9, 2010 [4 favorites]
In fact, once a month is regular. I'm surprised there hasn't been a faculty-administrator revolt. The deans in my college would never be able to get away with insisting on that many meetings outside of normal hours.
posted by zizzle at 4:13 PM on August 9, 2010 [4 favorites]
Just because the other employees do not have children does not mean that they don't have important family and personal commitments that they are quietly rescheduling/rearranging for work.
posted by desuetude at 4:19 PM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by desuetude at 4:19 PM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
The best solution for everyone would be to schedule the meetings during normal working hours. It is OK to shut down an office an hour early once a month for a staff meeting, just announce/post the schedule in advance so students and other departments are aware of the closure.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:32 PM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 5:32 PM on August 9, 2010 [3 favorites]
That is way too many out of hours mandatory meetings, but the part that makes it really bad is that there's only around a month's notice for each one (by your wording I'm assuming that sometimes there's even less). If there was an annual, or even a semester calendar for these things, it would probably be easier for everybody. She would have more time to find a babysitter, and no one else's evening plans (event tickets, parties, etc) would be ruined by not having notice this event was happening.
She should not be given special privileges due to kids or childcare. However letting everybody bow out of 3-4 of these things a year doesn't seem unreasonable unless there's an actual reason they all need to be there every time. Listening to the Dean talk and orienting students does not sound like an adequate reason to need every single one of the directors every time.
posted by wending my way at 6:33 PM on August 9, 2010
She should not be given special privileges due to kids or childcare. However letting everybody bow out of 3-4 of these things a year doesn't seem unreasonable unless there's an actual reason they all need to be there every time. Listening to the Dean talk and orienting students does not sound like an adequate reason to need every single one of the directors every time.
posted by wending my way at 6:33 PM on August 9, 2010
he wasn't "bragging" about "neglecting" his children - he was stating that in a working environment your kids aren't an acceptable excuse to not do your job and that if he had missed mandatory meetings, no matter what the reason, he'd be out of a job.
fighting for equality in the workplace means that you can't give special treatment to women with kids. that's discriminatory.
No, he wasn't bragging. But he was describing quite vividly an attitude toward not just family life, but all of life, that workplaces have got away with imposing for decades: work trumps everything, even when it starts creeping into and messing up the rest of your life. If you don't like it, you can be replaced.
This can't really change as long as, when people try to set boundaries, it's considered "special treatment for women with kids." Again I say that having children is not a special condition. Nor is having a partner, ill parents, siblings who need you, volunteer activities, friends, pets - in short, a life. What's needed here is not special treatment for women with kids, but normal treatment for people with lives - as desuetude pointed out.
In a working environment, being able to pull all the strings is not an acceptable excuse to not do your job - that is, to arrange common-sense ways for your employees to get their work done (for the most part) during normal working hours. A group of university administrators who truly can't figure out how to do this should be out of a job.
posted by Betsy Vane at 6:45 PM on August 9, 2010 [10 favorites]
fighting for equality in the workplace means that you can't give special treatment to women with kids. that's discriminatory.
No, he wasn't bragging. But he was describing quite vividly an attitude toward not just family life, but all of life, that workplaces have got away with imposing for decades: work trumps everything, even when it starts creeping into and messing up the rest of your life. If you don't like it, you can be replaced.
This can't really change as long as, when people try to set boundaries, it's considered "special treatment for women with kids." Again I say that having children is not a special condition. Nor is having a partner, ill parents, siblings who need you, volunteer activities, friends, pets - in short, a life. What's needed here is not special treatment for women with kids, but normal treatment for people with lives - as desuetude pointed out.
In a working environment, being able to pull all the strings is not an acceptable excuse to not do your job - that is, to arrange common-sense ways for your employees to get their work done (for the most part) during normal working hours. A group of university administrators who truly can't figure out how to do this should be out of a job.
posted by Betsy Vane at 6:45 PM on August 9, 2010 [10 favorites]
"that often when men brag about neglecting their children in favor of work, it's because they can count on the children's mommy putting her kids first. "
that's a really shitty thing to say. he wasn't "bragging" about "neglecting" his children - he was stating that in a working environment your kids aren't an acceptable excuse to not do your job and that if he had missed mandatory meetings, no matter what the reason, he'd be out of a job.
fighting for equality in the workplace means that you can't give special treatment to women with kids. that's discriminatory.
"Shitty" is the idea that men or women should be half-arsed parents because of bizarre, family hostile working arrangments, like once-a-month meetings in the evenings or random weekend/evening sessions. Or, as Betsy puts it, that anyone's life outside work is an optional extra.
I will side with the sentiment:
Fair for everyone is not scheduling meetings after business hours.
You could, I guess, try to force the issue. Once you've outed yourself as a family-hostile workplace, you'll find the profile of your staff aligning to how you choose to do business. If that means you lose people you valuye to more family-friendly outfits, oh well.
posted by rodgerd at 3:39 AM on August 10, 2010
that's a really shitty thing to say. he wasn't "bragging" about "neglecting" his children - he was stating that in a working environment your kids aren't an acceptable excuse to not do your job and that if he had missed mandatory meetings, no matter what the reason, he'd be out of a job.
fighting for equality in the workplace means that you can't give special treatment to women with kids. that's discriminatory.
"Shitty" is the idea that men or women should be half-arsed parents because of bizarre, family hostile working arrangments, like once-a-month meetings in the evenings or random weekend/evening sessions. Or, as Betsy puts it, that anyone's life outside work is an optional extra.
I will side with the sentiment:
Fair for everyone is not scheduling meetings after business hours.
You could, I guess, try to force the issue. Once you've outed yourself as a family-hostile workplace, you'll find the profile of your staff aligning to how you choose to do business. If that means you lose people you valuye to more family-friendly outfits, oh well.
posted by rodgerd at 3:39 AM on August 10, 2010
Response by poster: Just to clarify:
8-10am events= mandatory dean's meetings three times a year.
(while the directors arrive at 9am, the university officially opens at 8am. The directors all usually choose to come in at 9 because it suits them better - childcare reasons, etc.).
5-6:30 events: student orientations, student events, about seven times a year.
(Students really don't have 9-5 business hours - often they are free in the evenings).
I just wanted to put to rest the misconception that the dean was busy scheduling multiple evening events outside of regular work hours in the evening. She is not.
Universities are about students, and many students are available in the evening, so that's when many student focused events are scheduled. They are mandatory in the sense that the expectation is that staff will be there.
Thank you all for your comments, you've given me a lot to think about, and I appreciate it.
posted by It's a Parasox at 12:17 PM on August 10, 2010
8-10am events= mandatory dean's meetings three times a year.
(while the directors arrive at 9am, the university officially opens at 8am. The directors all usually choose to come in at 9 because it suits them better - childcare reasons, etc.).
5-6:30 events: student orientations, student events, about seven times a year.
(Students really don't have 9-5 business hours - often they are free in the evenings).
I just wanted to put to rest the misconception that the dean was busy scheduling multiple evening events outside of regular work hours in the evening. She is not.
Universities are about students, and many students are available in the evening, so that's when many student focused events are scheduled. They are mandatory in the sense that the expectation is that staff will be there.
Thank you all for your comments, you've given me a lot to think about, and I appreciate it.
posted by It's a Parasox at 12:17 PM on August 10, 2010
Baby sitter 10-12 times a year as a nice trade off for the flexibility offered the rest of the time.
posted by KneeDeep at 12:49 PM on August 10, 2010
posted by KneeDeep at 12:49 PM on August 10, 2010
I've worked in a student-facing position where the meetings for staff that were semi-mandatory (almost everyone went, but it wasn't actually required for everyone) once a month were during business hours--lunch, with lunch provided, and that worked very well for everyone.
However, yes...especially if you're a graduate program for working students, it's unfair to students to schedule most of those during business hours. If childcare's being considered...I know many of the grad students I worked with would have been thrilled with free childcare and more would have come.
At the school I worked at, flex time was more or less non-existent, but, unless you were required to speak to students, you didn't have to come to call of them. For the most part, faculty and staff traded off. If you had an essential job function such that you HAD to be there for all of them, you could either leave after your part was finished or you were allowed to come in later the next day. People generally volunteered for extended events like commencement.
I don't think childcare's probably realistic...and it's probably not actually helpful to her. If I were creating a policy, it might be worth saying she has to come to the Dean's meetings but letting people stagger their attendance at the evening ones. I am not going to say that having more people there isn't helpful--recruiting students is often helped by having someone there who can speak to their needs specifically, but we never had everyone there every time and our applications were still up. I went to probably 90 percent of ours, but the one or two I couldn't go to weren't a disaster for anyone--people who needed to call me took my business card which was on the table. And yes, I suspect, as with others above, that staff morale will be improved by having these mandatory events be less frequent.
posted by eleanna at 9:54 PM on September 27, 2010
However, yes...especially if you're a graduate program for working students, it's unfair to students to schedule most of those during business hours. If childcare's being considered...I know many of the grad students I worked with would have been thrilled with free childcare and more would have come.
At the school I worked at, flex time was more or less non-existent, but, unless you were required to speak to students, you didn't have to come to call of them. For the most part, faculty and staff traded off. If you had an essential job function such that you HAD to be there for all of them, you could either leave after your part was finished or you were allowed to come in later the next day. People generally volunteered for extended events like commencement.
I don't think childcare's probably realistic...and it's probably not actually helpful to her. If I were creating a policy, it might be worth saying she has to come to the Dean's meetings but letting people stagger their attendance at the evening ones. I am not going to say that having more people there isn't helpful--recruiting students is often helped by having someone there who can speak to their needs specifically, but we never had everyone there every time and our applications were still up. I went to probably 90 percent of ours, but the one or two I couldn't go to weren't a disaster for anyone--people who needed to call me took my business card which was on the table. And yes, I suspect, as with others above, that staff morale will be improved by having these mandatory events be less frequent.
posted by eleanna at 9:54 PM on September 27, 2010
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Speaking as a mom singlehandedly raising three kids, the answer is, "Yeah. Of course."
Babysitters exist.
posted by dzaz at 11:45 AM on August 9, 2010 [15 favorites]