Educate me on education
July 27, 2010 4:35 PM Subscribe
How do I educate myself on my children's education and make good choices?
I have a 3 year old, and a 1 year old. It is time to start thinking about schooling options, as I live in Los Angeles, where finding good public schools potentially means moving house. As I consider the schools that seem to be available to us (public and private), I find that while I have opinions about what makes a good school, and what is best for elementary-age children, these opinions are based pretty much on the way I was schooled, and what seemed to work well for me. I think I need to get a broader, more informed opinion on schooling and education, so I can better understand our options.
Some examples of what I am talking about, would be public schools here in Los Angeles. Received wisdom is that they are either TERRIBLE or AMAZING, and as far as I can tell, that judgement call is based almost entirely on test scores. High test scores sound nice, but are they really representative of whether a school is good or not? A large part of test score success seems to be based on how many English-language learners are at the school. So I'm going to assume that test scores are an unfair metric. And usually the really high test score schools are in the wealthy, mostly native-English-speaking neighborhoods. So ignoring the test scores for the moment, is having a lot of English learners at your kid's school actually a negative in any way? If I can't use test scores as a judgement metric for a school's worth, what do I use? I need some way to narrow down the options, I can't visit all of them.
A preliminary look at some of the highly-rated public schools has me suspicious that they are overly obsessed with testing, and give a lot of homework, and work the kids hard. I'm don't think I want that for my kid at such a young age, he should be enjoying school. But I probably shouldn't write them off without knowing whether he might enjoy it. How do I know? I feel completely at sea, with so many options to choose from, and no idea how to evaluate them all. Once you open up your options to include private schools, then there are all these different educational philosophies to choose from too.
So in short, I am looking for places to research education. I want to better understand test scores and the side-effects of them. I want to consider the effect of a school's student demographics. I want to understand different educational philosophies and read any (easily accessible) studies that have been done on their effectiveness. I want to learn about different educational strategies in other countries in the world, so I can view the US from a broader perspective. I want to read books, articles and websites that will help me formulate a more informed opinion, and challenge some of my own assumptions. Where do I start? Any recommended resources? Preference for articles and websites over books, because I don't have an awful lot of time for reading anymore, and a big pile of books may just sit there.
I have a 3 year old, and a 1 year old. It is time to start thinking about schooling options, as I live in Los Angeles, where finding good public schools potentially means moving house. As I consider the schools that seem to be available to us (public and private), I find that while I have opinions about what makes a good school, and what is best for elementary-age children, these opinions are based pretty much on the way I was schooled, and what seemed to work well for me. I think I need to get a broader, more informed opinion on schooling and education, so I can better understand our options.
Some examples of what I am talking about, would be public schools here in Los Angeles. Received wisdom is that they are either TERRIBLE or AMAZING, and as far as I can tell, that judgement call is based almost entirely on test scores. High test scores sound nice, but are they really representative of whether a school is good or not? A large part of test score success seems to be based on how many English-language learners are at the school. So I'm going to assume that test scores are an unfair metric. And usually the really high test score schools are in the wealthy, mostly native-English-speaking neighborhoods. So ignoring the test scores for the moment, is having a lot of English learners at your kid's school actually a negative in any way? If I can't use test scores as a judgement metric for a school's worth, what do I use? I need some way to narrow down the options, I can't visit all of them.
A preliminary look at some of the highly-rated public schools has me suspicious that they are overly obsessed with testing, and give a lot of homework, and work the kids hard. I'm don't think I want that for my kid at such a young age, he should be enjoying school. But I probably shouldn't write them off without knowing whether he might enjoy it. How do I know? I feel completely at sea, with so many options to choose from, and no idea how to evaluate them all. Once you open up your options to include private schools, then there are all these different educational philosophies to choose from too.
So in short, I am looking for places to research education. I want to better understand test scores and the side-effects of them. I want to consider the effect of a school's student demographics. I want to understand different educational philosophies and read any (easily accessible) studies that have been done on their effectiveness. I want to learn about different educational strategies in other countries in the world, so I can view the US from a broader perspective. I want to read books, articles and websites that will help me formulate a more informed opinion, and challenge some of my own assumptions. Where do I start? Any recommended resources? Preference for articles and websites over books, because I don't have an awful lot of time for reading anymore, and a big pile of books may just sit there.
A preliminary look at some of the highly-rated public schools has me suspicious that they are overly obsessed with testing, and give a lot of homework, and work the kids hard.
Even if the schools do not, the parents hire tutors to pick up the slack. Which is a factor in why rich towns have high scores. The kids on average as doltish as most kids, but with a few cans of whupass, you can work wonders. At least as far as standardized tests are concerned.
Something to bear in mind.
posted by IndigoJones at 5:17 PM on July 27, 2010
Best answer: Unfortunately, I don't know much about elementary education theory--I've worked exclusively in public middle and high schools--but I would think a good start would be finding out what pedagogy (theory of teaching) the principals and teachers at the various schools subscribe to. Is it all direct instruction (traditional)? Project-based learning? A mix? Ask to see student work. Does it seem challenging and interesting, or is it all worksheets? Are students in the higher grades asked simple one-answer-only questions, or are they given problems that require more critical thinking? Test scores don't take into account the number of kids learning English, who have learning disabilities, who are being neglected and/or abused at home, etc. all of which greatly impact student test performance. Looking at actual curriculum and talking with teachers will give you a much better idea of the school's quality than the its ranking in my opinion.
Regarding a place to start your reading, I'd like to recommend The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice are Undermining Education by Diane Ravitch. This book is an amazingly spot-on apolitical look at school reform efforts that uses data and not conventional wisdom to determine what works and what doesn't. I'm a former urban high school teacher and every sentence rings true to my own small experience.
Leaving the issue of school choice aside, I've found that kids who are loved, get attention paid to them at home, and who were read to at early ages nearly always do okay in the end. Good luck!
posted by smirkette at 5:29 PM on July 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
Regarding a place to start your reading, I'd like to recommend The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice are Undermining Education by Diane Ravitch. This book is an amazingly spot-on apolitical look at school reform efforts that uses data and not conventional wisdom to determine what works and what doesn't. I'm a former urban high school teacher and every sentence rings true to my own small experience.
Leaving the issue of school choice aside, I've found that kids who are loved, get attention paid to them at home, and who were read to at early ages nearly always do okay in the end. Good luck!
posted by smirkette at 5:29 PM on July 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
In my opinion, a better indicator of a good school is the percentage of parents that are involved in the school. It really doesn't matter if the kids are smart/dumb or the teachers are great/so-so if you have lots of parents that CARE about their children's education. Classroom discipline is much easier if the kids know that their parents will back up the teachers; kids are much happier at school if they know their mom will be in the library during story hour or comes to their classroom to help out with the science projects, etc. It gives a whole new attitude to the whole classroom when the parents instill in their kids the desire to be at school and to learn.
So, my advice is to see if you can get stats on the schools that show the number of students compared to the hours of parent volunteers and the PTA membership numbers. Every school I have ever been to has requested that the parents log in and post their hours every month; there was some agency (PTA? Govt?) that collected that data and gave grants/awards for high numbers. So that data should be available; if not from the school administration, then from the PTA group.
I'll also recommend that whichever school you choose, remember that YOU are your children's first teacher, so take them to museums (art, science, history) and to plays/puppet shows/libraries/concerts/etc.
posted by CathyG at 5:30 PM on July 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
So, my advice is to see if you can get stats on the schools that show the number of students compared to the hours of parent volunteers and the PTA membership numbers. Every school I have ever been to has requested that the parents log in and post their hours every month; there was some agency (PTA? Govt?) that collected that data and gave grants/awards for high numbers. So that data should be available; if not from the school administration, then from the PTA group.
I'll also recommend that whichever school you choose, remember that YOU are your children's first teacher, so take them to museums (art, science, history) and to plays/puppet shows/libraries/concerts/etc.
posted by CathyG at 5:30 PM on July 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
Some really great L.A.-specific advice can be found here: Sandra Tsing Loh's Scandalously Informal Guide to L.A. Schools. You might also want to read her book, Mother on Fire, which is all about the search for a school here in L.A.
posted by BlahLaLa at 5:39 PM on July 27, 2010
posted by BlahLaLa at 5:39 PM on July 27, 2010
(Full disclosure: I am an elementary school music teacher).
Whatever you do, look into the music, art, PE, and library programs at your kids' future elementary school. Specialists are often overlooked (not so much PE, but it still happens) and are often eliminated during budget cuts. However, schools with high-quality art and library teachers are able to provide much more well-rounded educations, among other things.
posted by rossination at 5:59 PM on July 27, 2010
Whatever you do, look into the music, art, PE, and library programs at your kids' future elementary school. Specialists are often overlooked (not so much PE, but it still happens) and are often eliminated during budget cuts. However, schools with high-quality art and library teachers are able to provide much more well-rounded educations, among other things.
posted by rossination at 5:59 PM on July 27, 2010
If you can, make friends with teachers who live in your desired districts and see where they send their kids to school (in many districts you can choose where to send your kid if you're a teacher). Teachers are people who both know what's going on in their districts and generally prioritize high-quality education, so if you can swing it you'd get a great inside look. I know I give my friends advice on schools very often when they approach me with questions about the district, and I'm not even a parent.
posted by superlibby at 6:39 PM on July 27, 2010
posted by superlibby at 6:39 PM on July 27, 2010
And once you've done the above research: search your soul on these issues: What type of experience are you looking for? Is academics your main focus or do you also want lots of extra-curriculars? Lots of great extra-curriculars? Do you want K-HS or are you willing to do this research again for middle school and then again for HS? Do you want to send both children to the same school? Even if they have divergent learning styles? Do either have any special skills/needs that you expect the school to address: autistic behaviors, speech therapy, music, chess, sports, languages, computers? How involved do you want to be at the school: promising only that your kids will be there properly prepared or willing to lead the PTO? What are your thoughts on class size and mainstreaming?
And be honest with yourself and any other involved parties. I know lots of parents who swore with straight faces that a start up, multi-cultural, public school was exactly what they wanted for their kids until they realized that also meant their colleagues had never heard of the school, lots of ESL students, no extras that weren't parent led and lots of organizing for funding. During the start up years, there was about 30-40% turnover every every among the students, a fair amount of which was due to parents deciding "the house was too small/the raise came through and so why not move to X school district." Which incidentally was incredibly well known for its heavily involved, stay at home moms and all that codes for. Not that I'm bitter about this-my kids did great while there but it turned out everyone-including me and the founding principal- had breaking points.
posted by beaning at 7:11 PM on July 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
And be honest with yourself and any other involved parties. I know lots of parents who swore with straight faces that a start up, multi-cultural, public school was exactly what they wanted for their kids until they realized that also meant their colleagues had never heard of the school, lots of ESL students, no extras that weren't parent led and lots of organizing for funding. During the start up years, there was about 30-40% turnover every every among the students, a fair amount of which was due to parents deciding "the house was too small/the raise came through and so why not move to X school district." Which incidentally was incredibly well known for its heavily involved, stay at home moms and all that codes for. Not that I'm bitter about this-my kids did great while there but it turned out everyone-including me and the founding principal- had breaking points.
posted by beaning at 7:11 PM on July 27, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't envy you. I'm a product of the LAUSD and I can't think of a more complicated school system. I was lucky enough to test into gifted programs. If you think your kids are high-IQ material, request testing from their teacher as early as possible (if their teacher says no, almost certainly it is not worth your time and effort to press the point). Anecdotes from other students suggest that the earlier the testing, the more likely a high score, although I don't know that I've ever seen data to back that up. All of the highly gifted magnets and many of the better regarded gifted magnets are in the Valley, so if that's a commute you don't want to deal with maybe don't bother. If you don't think your kids are high-IQ material, there are still a lot of good magnets out there for science, humanities, performing arts, etc.
Most magnets will hold classroom tours during the magnet application period, which if you're interested in getting into the magnet system will give you a decent idea of how the kids behave in class and what the teachers are like (though in middle in high school we tended to clown around and cut up during class tours, as kids do). Once you're already in the magnet system, the next level of school will typically hold info sessions in one big exciting night - like, in early fifth grade they have "middle school magnet night" and the coordinators of nearby magnet middle schools all show up in the auditorium to tell parents and students about their schools. So once you're in the magnet system already, it's easy to find out about the next step - it's just getting in initially that is a little rough. There are all sorts of tricks to improve the chances of getting in, but my knowledge of these tricks is 20 years old, so I don't know that they'd be useful.
The upside of magnets is that you get your kids into classes with other kids whose parents are concerned enough about education to send them to magnets. In some cases you get better, more qualified teachers, though not always. There's also a little extra funding for random special programs, although according to the teachers I'm still in touch with, said funding gets shittier every year. As far as I'm concerned, the best thing about the magnet program is that I tend to rise to the level of my competition, so I worked harder when I was in class with other driven kids. Magnets also tended to be a haven for socially awkward nerds...I had a lot of friends who were absolutely the lowest on the social totem pole at their neighborhood schools who made real friends for the first time once they were in the magnet. Lottts of high functioning autism spectrum kids. The downside is that your kids may not have many friends in their neighborhood, and the commutes can be bad. I rode the bus for 2 and a half hours every day to get to high school, and while that was a longer commute, I knew people who travelled just as long as I did too. Also the magnet program in LA is a weird, weird system in terms of how students are allocated by race. It feels deeply anachronistic, to say the least, and it's in constant danger of being shut down by a lawsuit or a funding problem. I'd imagine it's a little scary to depend on these days given the straits the LAUSD is in financially.
Outside of magnets, there are a few other weird systems in place to give you some amount of school choice. Charters, open enrollment...when I was small they had something called childcare permits where you could get your kid into a school near your work. That was 1990, so I don't know if that still exists. In the Choices brochure (the magnet application booklet) there was also something called "Permits with Transportation". I have no idea what that is, but I remember seeing it as a mysterious phrase on the Choices always intrigued me.
I think one of the more important things about getting your kid into a good elementary school is that then you have partners in trying to figure out where to send kids to middle school and high school, in the other parents you meet through your kids and the guidance schools themselves offer. My mom picked my sister's middle and high schools based almost entirely on her friends' parents' research, and they both turned out to be really excellent experiences for her. It's not unlikely that you'll meet other parents at your kids' preschool and will be able to chat with them about school choices, too, which ought to really help.
I loved Mother on Fire, recommended above. Sandra Tsing Loh's writing is a bit polarizing, but if you don't mind her the book is very funny and very true, as someone who's witnessed this experience from the kid perspective. I wouldn't expect to gain any real insight into LA schools from it, but it's entertaining. I think this part of her site is more useful than the part linked above as far as actual information on your options.
Ultimately, though, I think if there were one right way to educate kids we'd all be using it. You've got to go with what feels right to you, and you're making decisions with limited information. Feel free to memail me if you have questions about the magnet system, because I have siblings and friends who've been through, among others, the gifted, highly gifted, science, humanities, performing arts, and probably other magnets I'm not thinking of. The conventional wisdom among parents about what schools are on top changes by the year though. I remember that as my little sister was finishing up her middle school, people were starting to say that it on the way out, that the best teachers had left and the replacements weren't as inspiring...so my next sister went someplace else, a "rising star" among magnets whose test scores and reputation had been on the wax over the previous few years. I have two sisters and we went to three different high schools. Schooling in LA is not trivial at all. Hence my long, long comment.
Best of luck to you. Congrats on starting to think about this early, and again, I would be happy to chat with you in more detail about my own experiences.
posted by little light-giver at 9:17 PM on July 27, 2010
Most magnets will hold classroom tours during the magnet application period, which if you're interested in getting into the magnet system will give you a decent idea of how the kids behave in class and what the teachers are like (though in middle in high school we tended to clown around and cut up during class tours, as kids do). Once you're already in the magnet system, the next level of school will typically hold info sessions in one big exciting night - like, in early fifth grade they have "middle school magnet night" and the coordinators of nearby magnet middle schools all show up in the auditorium to tell parents and students about their schools. So once you're in the magnet system already, it's easy to find out about the next step - it's just getting in initially that is a little rough. There are all sorts of tricks to improve the chances of getting in, but my knowledge of these tricks is 20 years old, so I don't know that they'd be useful.
The upside of magnets is that you get your kids into classes with other kids whose parents are concerned enough about education to send them to magnets. In some cases you get better, more qualified teachers, though not always. There's also a little extra funding for random special programs, although according to the teachers I'm still in touch with, said funding gets shittier every year. As far as I'm concerned, the best thing about the magnet program is that I tend to rise to the level of my competition, so I worked harder when I was in class with other driven kids. Magnets also tended to be a haven for socially awkward nerds...I had a lot of friends who were absolutely the lowest on the social totem pole at their neighborhood schools who made real friends for the first time once they were in the magnet. Lottts of high functioning autism spectrum kids. The downside is that your kids may not have many friends in their neighborhood, and the commutes can be bad. I rode the bus for 2 and a half hours every day to get to high school, and while that was a longer commute, I knew people who travelled just as long as I did too. Also the magnet program in LA is a weird, weird system in terms of how students are allocated by race. It feels deeply anachronistic, to say the least, and it's in constant danger of being shut down by a lawsuit or a funding problem. I'd imagine it's a little scary to depend on these days given the straits the LAUSD is in financially.
Outside of magnets, there are a few other weird systems in place to give you some amount of school choice. Charters, open enrollment...when I was small they had something called childcare permits where you could get your kid into a school near your work. That was 1990, so I don't know if that still exists. In the Choices brochure (the magnet application booklet) there was also something called "Permits with Transportation". I have no idea what that is, but I remember seeing it as a mysterious phrase on the Choices always intrigued me.
I think one of the more important things about getting your kid into a good elementary school is that then you have partners in trying to figure out where to send kids to middle school and high school, in the other parents you meet through your kids and the guidance schools themselves offer. My mom picked my sister's middle and high schools based almost entirely on her friends' parents' research, and they both turned out to be really excellent experiences for her. It's not unlikely that you'll meet other parents at your kids' preschool and will be able to chat with them about school choices, too, which ought to really help.
I loved Mother on Fire, recommended above. Sandra Tsing Loh's writing is a bit polarizing, but if you don't mind her the book is very funny and very true, as someone who's witnessed this experience from the kid perspective. I wouldn't expect to gain any real insight into LA schools from it, but it's entertaining. I think this part of her site is more useful than the part linked above as far as actual information on your options.
Ultimately, though, I think if there were one right way to educate kids we'd all be using it. You've got to go with what feels right to you, and you're making decisions with limited information. Feel free to memail me if you have questions about the magnet system, because I have siblings and friends who've been through, among others, the gifted, highly gifted, science, humanities, performing arts, and probably other magnets I'm not thinking of. The conventional wisdom among parents about what schools are on top changes by the year though. I remember that as my little sister was finishing up her middle school, people were starting to say that it on the way out, that the best teachers had left and the replacements weren't as inspiring...so my next sister went someplace else, a "rising star" among magnets whose test scores and reputation had been on the wax over the previous few years. I have two sisters and we went to three different high schools. Schooling in LA is not trivial at all. Hence my long, long comment.
Best of luck to you. Congrats on starting to think about this early, and again, I would be happy to chat with you in more detail about my own experiences.
posted by little light-giver at 9:17 PM on July 27, 2010
Best answer: Alfie Kohn has several books (I suggest starting with The Schools Our Children Deserve). Here is a link to his many articles.
posted by baho at 9:31 PM on July 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by baho at 9:31 PM on July 27, 2010 [2 favorites]
My daughter will be starting Kindergarten at our local LAUSD school in September. The school's API score is under (but close) to 800, and has been going up every year. It has a new principal, who parents and teachers are very excited about, and an active parent's association, which funds extra-curricular activities, and has helped keep staff from getting cut. Feel free to MeMail me and we can talk.
posted by mogget at 9:41 PM on July 27, 2010
posted by mogget at 9:41 PM on July 27, 2010
Since you seem to be stressed over this, it may also be worth pointing out that you're really, really unlikely to destroy your kids' futures by making the "wrong" choice.
The fact that you have the inclination and ability to compare schools (and even move to a "good" one) puts your kids in a class that is generally very successful: kids with educated, involved, and financially sound caregivers. Staying involved with your kids, aware of how they are doing in whatever school you choose, and encouraging them to do well will be as or more important than the particular school you choose.
Early childhood education seems to be really helpful, too.
posted by Marty Marx at 10:18 PM on July 27, 2010
The fact that you have the inclination and ability to compare schools (and even move to a "good" one) puts your kids in a class that is generally very successful: kids with educated, involved, and financially sound caregivers. Staying involved with your kids, aware of how they are doing in whatever school you choose, and encouraging them to do well will be as or more important than the particular school you choose.
Early childhood education seems to be really helpful, too.
posted by Marty Marx at 10:18 PM on July 27, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
From my experience as a son of a teacher and now husband to a teacher, both in smaller communities than Los Angeles, that schools will have a range of shoddy to amazing teachers, with some wacky ones thrown in for good fun. Some kids will benefit from a certain teaching style or approach, so certain teachers will be preferable. But if you're concerned about their education at this point, that bodes very well for them. I think that unless the kids are subjected to terrible schools and incompetent teachers for the whole of their school careers, they'll survive and succeed in the future thanks to parental support.
If you want to get a good feel for a school, why not go to the parent/teacher nights, or see if you can drop in on some classes and talk with the principals. Talk with other parents, see how the kids behave on the whole, and remember that class dynamics can change greatly from year to year.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:13 PM on July 27, 2010