Comments on: Sourdough Bread

Question: Sourdough Bread

dame — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:11:07 -0800

Bakers, help! How do I get my sourdough sourer?

The one thing I miss living Back East is real sourdough. Having despaired of finding it in stores, I have begun trying to make my own. However, I cannot get it to taste the way it should (like it does in Cali). I made starter according to the bread machine recipe & left it out for days, but no dice. Is it a question of the air and the water? Am I just doomed?

By: ChrisTN

ChrisTN — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:32:35 -0800

I don't know enough to help you out off the top of my head, but if you can still find the March issue of Cook's Illustrated magazine on the newsstand, it has a tremendous article on sourdough bread. Or join their web site (for a fee) and search for the recipe there.

By: Gyan

Gyan — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:42:14 -0800

Kuro5hin's useful on such odd occasions.

By: crunchland

crunchland — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:49:08 -0800

If you want your sour dough to be more sour, don't throw away as much when you're feeding it. Normally, you toss out have of your sourdough starter, and add more flour and water. Conversely, if your sourdough is too sour, throw more away.

By: dame

dame — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:03:34 -0800

My recipe says not to toss any, crunchland. I put half in the bread (1 cup) and then add a cup each of flour and water to the leftover half. Or am I misunderstanding?

Also, I have been doing it the half-assed way that involves yeast in the starter. Is that the problem?

By: dame

dame — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:06:12 -0800

Wow, the Kuro5hin is good. Thanks, Gyan. But I'd still like to hear other answers if people have them.

By: scazza

scazza — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:21:08 -0800

I just came accross this post today, don't know if it will be much help but I'd suggest contacting that blogger as well.

By: cali

cali — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:23:56 -0800

Different yeasts have different flavors, the flavor you're looking for might not be acheiveable without some of the original starter. Luckily, many places sell starter in freeze-dried form. Try here.

By: caddis

caddis — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:58:12 -0800

I have experience with yeast based, naturally cultured (by me) and dedicated sourdough starters. I would go with one of the commercially available dedicated starters for the best and most intense flavor. The only problem is you need to keep refreshing it to keep it alive. This is not much trouble if you keep baking bread, but a big pain if you bake bread only occasionally. Someday I will try the natural culture process again as it is fun.

By: deliriouscool

deliriouscool — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:24:55 -0800

It can be time and labor-intensive, but the methods in Nancy Silverton's Breads from the La Brea Bakery yield fantastic results. She's a "wild yeaster," so it's a long process, but did I mention that the bread is fantastic?

By: obiwanwasabi

obiwanwasabi — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:40:37 -0800

Yeast = teh suck. All the bugs you need are in the flour. Commercial bread yeast replicates way too quickly, so there's not enough time for the lactic bugs to do their thing. No lactobacillus, no sourdough.

Throw out that icky bread machine starter. Get half a cup of organic wholemeal rye flour. Add a quarter cup of water and mix to a paste. Cover and leave for 24 hours at 20-25oC (70-80 oF). Throw away half, add another 1/2 cup flour and 1/4 cup water. Cover, and wait 24 hours. By now it should be bubbling. Switch to regular white bread flour. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

You should be OK to bake after 5 days. You can then keep the starter as a liquid culture (quick to start, but requires feeding more often) or a sponge culture (less feeding, but much slower to start).

By: dame

dame — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:04:30 -0800

You are all awesome. I think I may have picked up a new obsessive hobby. For now, I'm going to go with the freeze-dried starter Cali linked to; then, when it gets warmer and I don't have to worry about the little bacteria getting too cold at night, I'll try cultivating my own.

To that end, what happens in summer when it's a hundred? Assuming you don't have AC (I don't), are your edible pets doomed?

By: casu marzu

casu marzu — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:08:45 -0800

I'm going to vastly oversimplify things here, because what goes on inside a loaf of sourdough is really complicated. Basically, you have two types of fermentation going on in the sourdough: anaerobic and lactic, caused by the yeast and other microbes, respectively. The sour flavor that you seek is caused by the lactic fermentation of these other critters obviously.

One thing that might help you is to understand that the two different types of organisms prefer different types of environments. The yeast prefer a wetter environment, while the lactic bacteria prefer a drier one. Also, the yeast rebound more quickly from feeding than the lactic bacteria. What this means is that you have two crude controls to help make your dough more sour: first, keep your starter at a lower hydration. And second, allow more time between feeding the starter and using it in a loaf of bread. I would imagine that temperature may also favor one organism over the other, so look over some of the resources mentioned above.

Also, if you're doing this in your home kitchen, realize that controlling these factors is really hit-or-miss. But even if you can't control the elements quite as perfectly or scientifically as you like, you can still make awesome bread.

One more thing: absolutely start from scratch using obiwanwasabi's method. It is way better than using a commercial starter. Eventually, your starter will become home to your area's indigenous microbes anyway. Why slow down that process?

By: reflecked

reflecked — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:36:39 -0800

I'm pretty much an expert baker, and obiwanwasabi's method is the one i'd follow, were i you.

My sourdough starter is almost 2 years old; i keep it covered in the refrigerator when it's not being used. My neighbour's mum has a starter that's 8. It's wicked good, and i keep forgetting to steal a bit from her and add it to mine. yum

By: dame

dame — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:41:35 -0800

Oh gosh, one more question: cheesecloth or plastic covering? I've seen both recommended.

Yes, I will go read some books. But if you're here anyway . . .

By: flummox

flummox — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:49:55 -0800

Try rec.food.sourdough. Or http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/ The second site is Darrell Greenwoods site with info, faq's and links galore

By: cali

cali — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 22:19:12 -0800

Oh gosh, one more question: cheesecloth or plastic covering?

I don't think it matters much, it's mostly to keep bugs and dust out of the starter. Cheesecloth will allow the CO2 to vent but the top of your starter might get dry. Plastic will keep everything moist but need to be vented occasionally.

By: transient

transient — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:59:30 -0800

Plastic covering. Airtight is OK, but almost airtight is best.

As for making it more sour, a lot has been said that's good, however I will add that a good way to control the amount of sourness is to use a long sponge stage before mixing the final dough: get it to about pancake-batter consistency and let it ferment before mixing in the rest of the flour and salt, sugar, etc. Longer ferment=more sour.

In refreshing (feeding) your starter or making a sponge before mixing, you will want to double it at least; have no qualms about throwing some out in order to do this.

And don't use regular yeast.

By: soplerfo

soplerfo — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:29:01 -0800

late to the party here, and I'm totally an amateur baker, but I just wanted to say I agree completely with what obiwanwasabi wrote too.

By: brujita

brujita — Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:51:30 -0800

The only thing I've found comparable to west coast extra-sourdough bread in NY is the injera in Ethiopian restaurants. Sara Lee bought the San Luis Sourdough company a few years ago; the grocers here might be willing to order it (I haven't tried this, instead I've stocked up at Trader Joe's and Ralphs when I visit LA).

By: McWyrm

McWyrm — Sun, 13 Nov 2005 07:28:03 -0800

Cheesecloth will allow the CO2 to vent but the top of your starter might get dry. Plastic will keep everything moist but need to be vented occasionally.

How about an airlock? Would this work? Will the starter develop normally in an anerobic environment?

By: McWyrm

McWyrm — Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:56:30 -0800

Okay - I can answer my own question.

I'm using obiwanwasabi's method to make a starter. I have it in a quart jar topped with a #13 drilled stopper and a two-chamber airlock (like you can get from a homebrew store). I'm currently on day 3, and things seem to be going well. There is distinct activity - bubbles and such.

I'll switch to a more conventional form of storage once the starter is established.