How easy is it for an American to find a menial job in Europe?
June 21, 2010 12:15 AM Subscribe
How easy is it for an American to find a menial job-at a bar, hostel, restaurant, Teaching ESL, etc- in Glasgow, Prague, Krakow, or Budapest?
How cheap is Glasgow?
I recently bought a one-way ticket to Eastern Europe to meet a backpacking friend. When I joked that I'm tempted not to buy a return he said "Yeah, why not? Just find a menial job, hang around for a while and write." With that bit of encouragement, now I really am tempted. I am quitting my job and have a fair amount of cash saved but I would like to know how realistic it would be to find a "menial job" - just something to minimize the bleeding of funds- in Glasgow, Budapest, Krakow, or Prague. I only speak English. Glasgow is the obvious choice, but going from the American dollar to the British pound is not so attractive even with recent devaluation.
2nd Question: Is Glasgow as cheap as it's Mercer index ranking suggests?
I recently bought a one-way ticket to Eastern Europe to meet a backpacking friend. When I joked that I'm tempted not to buy a return he said "Yeah, why not? Just find a menial job, hang around for a while and write." With that bit of encouragement, now I really am tempted. I am quitting my job and have a fair amount of cash saved but I would like to know how realistic it would be to find a "menial job" - just something to minimize the bleeding of funds- in Glasgow, Budapest, Krakow, or Prague. I only speak English. Glasgow is the obvious choice, but going from the American dollar to the British pound is not so attractive even with recent devaluation.
2nd Question: Is Glasgow as cheap as it's Mercer index ranking suggests?
Response by poster: Nope. Glasgow, Scotland. Thanks.
My specific concern is the price of short-term housing, i.e. month to month sharing of a flat...as housing is usually the largest expensive for someone of a moderate or low income.
posted by pynchonesque at 12:42 AM on June 21, 2010
My specific concern is the price of short-term housing, i.e. month to month sharing of a flat...as housing is usually the largest expensive for someone of a moderate or low income.
posted by pynchonesque at 12:42 AM on June 21, 2010
It's much harder now to find a teaching job in eastern Europe than it was a few years ago. The economy in Hungary has tumbled, for instance, and the willingness of potential employers to overlook a lack of certification has diminished as well. Not knowing any of the languages of the area doesn't help either.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 1:17 AM on June 21, 2010
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 1:17 AM on June 21, 2010
Best answer: "how realistic it would be to find a "menial job""
In this economy its not very realistic in my view. If you don't have a work permit there is a very good chance you'll only end up being exploited; excessively long hours, harsh working conditions, perhaps cheated of wages in the end. And what can you do about it? You'd be an illegal immigrant, after all, a fact that's not lost on those who would hire an illegal.
Unemployment is very high in the UK now, and those menial jobs really should be available to folks who either were born here or have legal status. Also, public mood is strongly anti-immigration at the moment and the new government is indicating they are going to crack down hard on illegals.
I've been living in the UK since 1997, and know more than one American that worked illegally and got caught. One was detained for about two months and not only fined (if you work here you pay taxes here and if you work illegally you ain't paying taxes which doesn't go down well with HM Revenue & Customs) but also whacked with a ten year ban on entering England.
Best to come as a tourist and not mess your status up.
posted by Mutant at 2:29 AM on June 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
In this economy its not very realistic in my view. If you don't have a work permit there is a very good chance you'll only end up being exploited; excessively long hours, harsh working conditions, perhaps cheated of wages in the end. And what can you do about it? You'd be an illegal immigrant, after all, a fact that's not lost on those who would hire an illegal.
Unemployment is very high in the UK now, and those menial jobs really should be available to folks who either were born here or have legal status. Also, public mood is strongly anti-immigration at the moment and the new government is indicating they are going to crack down hard on illegals.
I've been living in the UK since 1997, and know more than one American that worked illegally and got caught. One was detained for about two months and not only fined (if you work here you pay taxes here and if you work illegally you ain't paying taxes which doesn't go down well with HM Revenue & Customs) but also whacked with a ten year ban on entering England.
Best to come as a tourist and not mess your status up.
posted by Mutant at 2:29 AM on June 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
I live in Glasgow. You can find a decent one-bed flat in good areas of Glasgow (city centre, west end) from £450-550 a month. Rooms from £250-350.
It would be pretty easy to find work in a bar or restaurant, and there are lots of temping agencies.
posted by cincinnatus c at 2:30 AM on June 21, 2010
It would be pretty easy to find work in a bar or restaurant, and there are lots of temping agencies.
posted by cincinnatus c at 2:30 AM on June 21, 2010
It would be pretty easy to find work in a bar or restaurant, and there are lots of temping agencies.
Not so, most employers will ask for proof of right to work (i.e. a British or EU passport or a work permit). Temping agencies almost certainly will. You might be able to get cash-in-hand bar work in Scotland, but it may well be a trifle sketchy (as in, a dodgy local pub in a rough part of town).
If you land in the UK without a return ticket to the US or onward tickets somewhere else in Europe, you will be turned around at the gate and might even be formally deported with a travel ban, if they believe your intent was to work illegally.
Bear in mind that you can do 90 days on a tourist visa in Eastern Europe (most of the Eastern European countries that are in the EU are also Schengen countries, so one visa covers them all but you only have 90 days within the area), and then do 90 days in the UK (as it is non-Schengen). That's a solid six months as a tourist.
I have no idea how closely policed work visas are in E. Europe at the moment, and you may be able to get work in backpacker bars as you're English speaking, but since you'd be inside Schengen, you're playing with fire - a ban from one Schengen country will get you banned from most or all of the rest.
posted by Happy Dave at 2:59 AM on June 21, 2010
Not so, most employers will ask for proof of right to work (i.e. a British or EU passport or a work permit). Temping agencies almost certainly will. You might be able to get cash-in-hand bar work in Scotland, but it may well be a trifle sketchy (as in, a dodgy local pub in a rough part of town).
If you land in the UK without a return ticket to the US or onward tickets somewhere else in Europe, you will be turned around at the gate and might even be formally deported with a travel ban, if they believe your intent was to work illegally.
Bear in mind that you can do 90 days on a tourist visa in Eastern Europe (most of the Eastern European countries that are in the EU are also Schengen countries, so one visa covers them all but you only have 90 days within the area), and then do 90 days in the UK (as it is non-Schengen). That's a solid six months as a tourist.
I have no idea how closely policed work visas are in E. Europe at the moment, and you may be able to get work in backpacker bars as you're English speaking, but since you'd be inside Schengen, you're playing with fire - a ban from one Schengen country will get you banned from most or all of the rest.
posted by Happy Dave at 2:59 AM on June 21, 2010
If you're literally just seeking to recoup your room and board costs, you could always try to WWOOF or Help-x. There are some hostels and other city businesses listed on Help-x so you could be in an urban area. The same visa concerns would apply.
posted by acidic at 3:48 AM on June 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by acidic at 3:48 AM on June 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Not so, most employers will ask for proof of right to work (i.e. a British or EU passport or a work permit).
Yeah, I missed the (implied) need for work to be cash in hand in the question.
posted by cincinnatus c at 3:49 AM on June 21, 2010
Yeah, I missed the (implied) need for work to be cash in hand in the question.
posted by cincinnatus c at 3:49 AM on June 21, 2010
Just for reference, the unemployment rate in the UK is actually a bit lower than in France, Italy, Spain, Greece, Sweden and the USA at present. Though we might quibble about the precise means of counting.
posted by A189Nut at 3:50 AM on June 21, 2010
posted by A189Nut at 3:50 AM on June 21, 2010
If you're just looking for a way to stem the flow of draining your savings, could you work online for a US company while in another country, or work for yourself with an online business? I'm thinking of things like writing content, e-commerce, something like that. That way you're not relying on some dodgy cash-in-hand job (and it would be dodgy if you were in the UK, anyway), but you could still get the experience you want in a new country.
(p.s. to get an idea of short-term housing costs in Glasgow, try gumtree.com)
posted by ukdanae at 3:54 AM on June 21, 2010
(p.s. to get an idea of short-term housing costs in Glasgow, try gumtree.com)
posted by ukdanae at 3:54 AM on June 21, 2010
just came in to say what Mutant already said above. if you love it here that much, don't risk your ability to potentially come back *legally* in future, it's not worth it. plus, the UK economy is hurting just as much as anywhere else.
(and yes, i am biased - illegal immigrant who think they can/should just rock up in a country and do under-the-table stuff make it that much harder for all those of us who jump through the hoops legally. /soapbox )
posted by wayward vagabond at 4:19 AM on June 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
(and yes, i am biased - illegal immigrant who think they can/should just rock up in a country and do under-the-table stuff make it that much harder for all those of us who jump through the hoops legally. /soapbox )
posted by wayward vagabond at 4:19 AM on June 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
(and yes, i am biased - illegal immigrant who think they can/should just rock up in a country and do under-the-table stuff make it that much harder for all those of us who jump through the hoops legally. /soapbox )
I certainly understand the impulse of the poster to want to chill out in a foreign place for a mamximum of time, but this too. And it's not just about "legal" guests. There are loads of people in Hungary (as an example) who'd jump at a chance to make the equivalent of $3 an hour at a bar or some place like that, but can't find any work at all. These "menial" jobs are a simple matter of survival to many people. If you want to extend your stay on a limited budget, one of the best things to do is to learn some language basics before you go - you'll find that many (cheap!) places to stay open up to those who've bothered - ones closed to those without basic language skills. (Not to mention more interesting friends, cheaper places to eat and much more.)
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 5:30 AM on June 21, 2010
I certainly understand the impulse of the poster to want to chill out in a foreign place for a mamximum of time, but this too. And it's not just about "legal" guests. There are loads of people in Hungary (as an example) who'd jump at a chance to make the equivalent of $3 an hour at a bar or some place like that, but can't find any work at all. These "menial" jobs are a simple matter of survival to many people. If you want to extend your stay on a limited budget, one of the best things to do is to learn some language basics before you go - you'll find that many (cheap!) places to stay open up to those who've bothered - ones closed to those without basic language skills. (Not to mention more interesting friends, cheaper places to eat and much more.)
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 5:30 AM on June 21, 2010
First, I'd suggest that you stick to Eastern Europe and forget about the UK. The UK is especially tough on illegal immigrants in a way that Eastern European countries aren't, in my experience.
Second, I've seen plenty of US citizens land ESL, bar and restaurant jobs in Eastern Europe without working permits. I even landed a pretty high level software job without a permit in Austria, ten years ago. That employer helped me sort out my visa, and I'm still here.
You may also want to consider Vienna. It's smack in the middle of some of the other cities you've listed. The economy is better here, and it's a little more civilized than some of the Eastern European cities. In Vienna, at least, you shouldn't have too much trouble finding a shared apartment. That's pretty popular here - you may share a large apartment with 3 or 4 flatmates - students, expats etc. You can expect to pay around 350 Euros/month in the nicer areas for a shared apartment, but it's possible to find something for as little as 200/month if you're lucky. If Vienna interests you, check out jobwohnen.at for housing and work opportunities.
Since you're here already, it certainly can't hurt to look around. Check with the Irish pubs. If you haven't yet, join CouchSurfing and attend some local meetups. Those guys may be able to help you find work and/or an apartment, and many of the meetings I've been to have been pretty fun, anyway.
If you want any other specific advice, feel free to MefiMail me... Good luck!
posted by syzygy at 5:31 AM on June 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Second, I've seen plenty of US citizens land ESL, bar and restaurant jobs in Eastern Europe without working permits. I even landed a pretty high level software job without a permit in Austria, ten years ago. That employer helped me sort out my visa, and I'm still here.
You may also want to consider Vienna. It's smack in the middle of some of the other cities you've listed. The economy is better here, and it's a little more civilized than some of the Eastern European cities. In Vienna, at least, you shouldn't have too much trouble finding a shared apartment. That's pretty popular here - you may share a large apartment with 3 or 4 flatmates - students, expats etc. You can expect to pay around 350 Euros/month in the nicer areas for a shared apartment, but it's possible to find something for as little as 200/month if you're lucky. If Vienna interests you, check out jobwohnen.at for housing and work opportunities.
Since you're here already, it certainly can't hurt to look around. Check with the Irish pubs. If you haven't yet, join CouchSurfing and attend some local meetups. Those guys may be able to help you find work and/or an apartment, and many of the meetings I've been to have been pretty fun, anyway.
If you want any other specific advice, feel free to MefiMail me... Good luck!
posted by syzygy at 5:31 AM on June 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Personally, I would just try to see if you can make it work. It could be a great opportunity to jump into a new situation and there is so much to learn from trying to cobble together a life in a different country. There are some risks (you could be banned for ten years if caught, etc.), but if you want to give it a whirl and can handle things if say, you can't find a job in the end and have to return home and start semi-fresh there, I say go for it. You only live once.
posted by thegreatfleecircus at 5:51 AM on June 21, 2010
posted by thegreatfleecircus at 5:51 AM on June 21, 2010
That employer helped me sort out my visa, and I'm still here.
Right. While you were already legally in the country, on a visitors permit, I presume, and you gained a skilled job for which employers can sponsor you. No problem here. What the OP wants to do is not so easy/wise these days.
OP, 3rding that this idea is not worth it, and not easy, especially in this economy. 'Eastern Europe' is not a hotbed of free-for-all jobs with kind bosses who care to look the other way about your status. You are talking about EU member states here.
If you really want to save money and stay the longest you are likely permitted (90 days schengen, 90 days UK) couchsurf all the way to extend your budget. The existence of a sharehouse culture varies in different countries, and subsidised/cheaper housing is generally only available to long-term residents.
posted by wingless_angel at 7:05 AM on June 21, 2010
Right. While you were already legally in the country, on a visitors permit, I presume, and you gained a skilled job for which employers can sponsor you. No problem here. What the OP wants to do is not so easy/wise these days.
OP, 3rding that this idea is not worth it, and not easy, especially in this economy. 'Eastern Europe' is not a hotbed of free-for-all jobs with kind bosses who care to look the other way about your status. You are talking about EU member states here.
If you really want to save money and stay the longest you are likely permitted (90 days schengen, 90 days UK) couchsurf all the way to extend your budget. The existence of a sharehouse culture varies in different countries, and subsidised/cheaper housing is generally only available to long-term residents.
posted by wingless_angel at 7:05 AM on June 21, 2010
Best answer: Right. While you were already legally in the country, on a visitors permit, I presume, and you gained a skilled job for which employers can sponsor you. No problem here. What the OP wants to do is not so easy/wise these days.
I've lived in Vienna for almost 10 years. I know more expats than I can count who've spent time living and working under the radar in Austria - some for more than 10 years. In my experience, it's easy to stay under the radar in Austria if you're a US citizen who doesn't otherwise get into legal trouble.
Sure, there's some risk involved, but assuming the original poster is an adult, he can weigh that risk and make his own rational decision. I can't guarantee that he won't get caught, but I can tell him with the authority of personal experience that I've known dozens of US citizens who've spent time here doing just what he suggests, and don't know of more than one or two who've been caught/deported/fined/banned from returning.
In Vienna, at least, it's an open secret that many gastro, ESL and construction jobs are employing legal and illegal residents under the table. I'm pretty confident that the poster could find work and an apartment for the Summer season here and have a minuscule risk of facing any negative repercussions, assuming he doesn't get into any other legal trouble.
This is AskMe. The guy asks how easy it is for an American to find a menial job in Eastern Europe. In my experience, in Vienna, the answer is, "it's pretty darned easy, and the risk of facing serious negative repercussions is minimal."
posted by syzygy at 8:03 AM on June 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've lived in Vienna for almost 10 years. I know more expats than I can count who've spent time living and working under the radar in Austria - some for more than 10 years. In my experience, it's easy to stay under the radar in Austria if you're a US citizen who doesn't otherwise get into legal trouble.
Sure, there's some risk involved, but assuming the original poster is an adult, he can weigh that risk and make his own rational decision. I can't guarantee that he won't get caught, but I can tell him with the authority of personal experience that I've known dozens of US citizens who've spent time here doing just what he suggests, and don't know of more than one or two who've been caught/deported/fined/banned from returning.
In Vienna, at least, it's an open secret that many gastro, ESL and construction jobs are employing legal and illegal residents under the table. I'm pretty confident that the poster could find work and an apartment for the Summer season here and have a minuscule risk of facing any negative repercussions, assuming he doesn't get into any other legal trouble.
This is AskMe. The guy asks how easy it is for an American to find a menial job in Eastern Europe. In my experience, in Vienna, the answer is, "it's pretty darned easy, and the risk of facing serious negative repercussions is minimal."
posted by syzygy at 8:03 AM on June 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is AskMe. The guy asks how easy it is for an American to find a menial job in Eastern Europe. In my experience, in Vienna, the answer is, "it's pretty darned easy, and the risk of facing serious negative repercussions is minimal."
Fair play, but the OP also focused on Eastern Europe and Glasgow, UK in his question. I chimed in on Glasgow (where it's a bad idea) and others chimed in on E. Europe.
These kind of questions are borderline, because they verge on the 'help me to break the law' side of things, and the consequences are often dire if you do get nabbed. Your personal experience of Vienna aside, I think none of the responses above are out of line - they're accurate reflections of the risks of attempting to work illegally within the EU.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:08 AM on June 21, 2010
HappyDave:
I agree on the UK, and specifically recommended that the poster avoid it in my first response. Vienna's in Eastern Europe (or ~40 kilometers west / ~100 kilometers south of it, at the most).
posted by syzygy at 9:15 AM on June 21, 2010
I agree on the UK, and specifically recommended that the poster avoid it in my first response. Vienna's in Eastern Europe (or ~40 kilometers west / ~100 kilometers south of it, at the most).
posted by syzygy at 9:15 AM on June 21, 2010
There's a book called "Work Your Way Around The World" that might be interesting to read, though it's written from an EU perspective and doesn't spend nearly enough time considering the visa/legality issues that non-EU citizens have to contend with. Still, if there's a recent edition, it might give you a slightly-too-optimistic take on working in Europe.
posted by soviet sleepover at 9:18 AM on June 21, 2010
posted by soviet sleepover at 9:18 AM on June 21, 2010
Work Your Way Around The World: A Fresh & Fully Up To Date Guide For The Modern Working Traveler, by Susan Griffith.
posted by soviet sleepover at 9:23 AM on June 21, 2010
posted by soviet sleepover at 9:23 AM on June 21, 2010
Fair enough, it's still breaking the law and there's still a risk of deportation, even if the realities on the ground may lead the OP to think that it's a fair risk to take given your advice. You know better than I, since you live there. I personally (and others upthread) think that while it may be possible, the risks outweigh the rewards. There are many routes into legal immigration, even though some of them are tougher than others and nearly all of them require an exceptional skill, some kind of higher education or marriage. Locking yourself out of those legal choices for ten years because you decided to chance it would suck greatly and just makes the legal routes ever tighter.
Also, Vienna may be geographically close to what used to be the Warsaw Pact, (which is what I think of when I hear Eastern Europe), but it's culturally and legally Western European.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:24 AM on June 21, 2010
Also, Vienna may be geographically close to what used to be the Warsaw Pact, (which is what I think of when I hear Eastern Europe), but it's culturally and legally Western European.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:24 AM on June 21, 2010
Best answer: "These kind of questions are borderline, because they verge on the 'help me to break the law' side of things, and the consequences are often dire if you do get nabbed."
Working in the UK without a work permit is clearly breaking the law and Happy Dave is correct - the consequences can be dire, even more so now that there is a serious recession on.
I always find these questions disturbing on some level since its very easy to view the questioner as doing something radical and daring when, in reality, working illegally is simply stealing a means of support from those who were either born in country or have legal status entitling them to work in county.
A ready supply of illegal labour not only depresses wages earned by those legally employed, it also garners the largest benefits to those who initially break the law by employing illegals. Working illegally is a socially negative activity.
posted by Mutant at 10:09 AM on June 21, 2010
Working in the UK without a work permit is clearly breaking the law and Happy Dave is correct - the consequences can be dire, even more so now that there is a serious recession on.
I always find these questions disturbing on some level since its very easy to view the questioner as doing something radical and daring when, in reality, working illegally is simply stealing a means of support from those who were either born in country or have legal status entitling them to work in county.
A ready supply of illegal labour not only depresses wages earned by those legally employed, it also garners the largest benefits to those who initially break the law by employing illegals. Working illegally is a socially negative activity.
posted by Mutant at 10:09 AM on June 21, 2010
nthing what most people have said about how risky it is working under-the-counter.
This too: "I only speak English. Glasgow is the obvious choice..."
Ahem.
posted by essexjan at 10:12 AM on June 21, 2010
This too: "I only speak English. Glasgow is the obvious choice..."
Ahem.
posted by essexjan at 10:12 AM on June 21, 2010
HappyDave: Also, Vienna may be geographically close to what used to be the Warsaw Pact, (which is what I think of when I hear Eastern Europe), but it's culturally and legally Western European.
That's why I said, "Vienna's in Eastern Europe (or ~40 kilometers west / ~100 kilometers south of it, at the most)."
I don't want to get into a pedantic argument over whether Vienna should be considered East or West. It's sort of the crossroads of both - I see it as a peninsula of Western Europe jutting into the sea of Eastern Europe. Vienna is further east than the following capital cities of former Warsaw pact territories: Prague, Ljubljana and Zagreb, and it's about 50 kilometers west of Bratislava. Other than Stockholm (just barely) and Helsinki, it's the easternmost capital city of a Western European country.
Mutant:
If the guy works in an Irish pub or as an ESL teacher in Austria (or one of the surrounding countries), he won't be taking a job away from a local.
posted by syzygy at 10:35 AM on June 21, 2010
That's why I said, "Vienna's in Eastern Europe (or ~40 kilometers west / ~100 kilometers south of it, at the most)."
I don't want to get into a pedantic argument over whether Vienna should be considered East or West. It's sort of the crossroads of both - I see it as a peninsula of Western Europe jutting into the sea of Eastern Europe. Vienna is further east than the following capital cities of former Warsaw pact territories: Prague, Ljubljana and Zagreb, and it's about 50 kilometers west of Bratislava. Other than Stockholm (just barely) and Helsinki, it's the easternmost capital city of a Western European country.
Mutant:
If the guy works in an Irish pub or as an ESL teacher in Austria (or one of the surrounding countries), he won't be taking a job away from a local.
posted by syzygy at 10:35 AM on June 21, 2010
The notion of staying on as an illegal, working essentailly illegal jobs, strikes me as foolish and risky. The OP will be subject to all the disadvantages that accompany illegals in the U.S. Jobs will pay less, will provide little or not security (if you're illegal, how can you complain if someone fires or takes advantage of you? Or, for that matter, blackmails you?) If your employer knows you are illegal, and they certainly will, do you believe he would choose to protect your "secret" if the authorities pressure hum?
How about health issues? You won't be eligible for the local version of univeral care, and you won't be able to afford private insurance?
Consider what is likely to happen if and when you want to leave your adopted country, either for travel to the U.S. or permanently. You're going to show up with a well-expired visa. If anyone notices it (I've seen it happen) you're almost certain to be detained.
Finally, as someone mentioned upthread, you are unlikely to be admitted to the UK or any European country on a tourist visa if you haven't purchased a ticket out of that country. You won't be asked to produce it at pasport control because they will already know: Airlines provide this information to the local authorities.
posted by justcorbly at 11:14 AM on June 21, 2010
How about health issues? You won't be eligible for the local version of univeral care, and you won't be able to afford private insurance?
Consider what is likely to happen if and when you want to leave your adopted country, either for travel to the U.S. or permanently. You're going to show up with a well-expired visa. If anyone notices it (I've seen it happen) you're almost certain to be detained.
Finally, as someone mentioned upthread, you are unlikely to be admitted to the UK or any European country on a tourist visa if you haven't purchased a ticket out of that country. You won't be asked to produce it at pasport control because they will already know: Airlines provide this information to the local authorities.
posted by justcorbly at 11:14 AM on June 21, 2010
Marry somebody.
(Worked for me, although my time in Budapest over the years has been limited.)
posted by Michael Roberts at 1:44 PM on June 21, 2010
(Worked for me, although my time in Budapest over the years has been limited.)
posted by Michael Roberts at 1:44 PM on June 21, 2010
I'd be especially careful in Austria, for what it's worth. Syzygy is correct (at least on this one level) by saying that Vienna is a little more civilized than some of the Eastern European cities. But in that sense, you're much more likely to be caught overstaying your legal limit or working illegally - and to suffer the consequences. (As opposed to places that really are "East," where bribery, simply coming across as a nice person or old-school bureaucratic inefficiency can help you escape getting busted.) I know plenty of people who've been caught in Austria, probably more so than any other place.
You'd likely have a better time in Budapest or Prague or Krakow than Vienna, though it's different for everyone. It's certainly cheaper and looser in those places. But I'd still urge you not to stay longer than your 90-day limit. If you really want to do this "right," I'd go to the very cheap and slightly underexplored places like Moldova or eastern Slovakia. Go where they is a real lack of ESL teachers and where you really can live on nearly nothing, and where you'd have a better chance of wriggling away with some sort of legal status. It'd be life-changing and you'd have more and better stories than those of simply another American slacker in a big capital. You'd walk away with a better sense of the people, and you'd be more likely to learn the language, too.
I don't want to get into a pedantic argument over whether Vienna should be considered East or West. It's sort of the crossroads of both - I see it as a peninsula of Western Europe jutting into the sea of Eastern Europe. Vienna is further east than the following capital cities of former Warsaw pact territories: Prague, Ljubljana and Zagreb, and it's about 50 kilometers west of Bratislava. Other than Stockholm (just barely) and Helsinki, it's the easternmost capital city of a Western European country.
You'd certainly never hear anyone with real knowledge of the situation describing Vienna as "Eastern European" in any sense at all. Geography is an incidental factor, at best, and ignores the last century's politics, standards of living and a zillion other relevant factors.
There used to be a nice term - "Mitteleuropa" (Central Europe, more or less) - to describe a part of Europe that wasn't quite Eastern, but was something a bit different from the West. Basically, it encompassed all the "German" or Alpine lands of the time (Germany, Switzerland, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Slovenia, Liechtenstein) as well as countries sandwiched between them (Czechoslovakia, Poland) and occasionally some outlying areas controlled by those already listed - northern Serbia, much of Croatia, Transylvania, etc.
At best, one might describe Vienna as "Central European," though today "Western" fits better - the terms "Central European" or "Mitteleuropa" are rarely used, except in some cultured cities on the "Eastern" side of those lands, who have scant claim to being Western, but don't especially like to be seen in the same light as Ukraine or Romania or Bulgaria. Prague, Budapest and Krakow would be among these cities.
Communism was the deciding factor in the East / West divide, and it's still seen that way. Vienna may be east of Prague, but that's simply a historical quirk. No one sees it as a deciding factor. To argue it on the basis of geography isn't simply ignoring the historical reality, it's baseless anyway. Per Wikipedia, look at candidates for the "center point of Europe" and see:
Locations currently vying for the distinction of being the centre of Europe include:
Bernotai, or Purnuškės, near Vilnius, in Lithuania;
a point on the island of Saaremaa in Estonia;
the village of Krahule, near Kremnica, in central Slovakia;
the small town of Rakhiv, or the village of Dilove near Rakhiv, in western Ukraine;
Suchowola, north of Białystok, in northeast Poland; and Toruń, in north-central Poland;
a point near Polotsk in Belarus.
As noted below, Guinness World Records recognises Bernotai, 26 km. north of Vilnius, Lithuania, as the "official" geographical midpoint of Europe. But that does not preclude other centres, depending on the methodology used in making the determination.
You'll notice that *all* of these locations are to the east of Vienna, which means - even if you want to take szyzgy's strictly geographic sense of the term "Eastern" - that Vienna is squarely in the West. So, of course, would be cities like Budapest and Prague, but few would argue that they're Western. So you can see why geography is poor way of defining "Eastern" Europe.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 4:56 PM on June 21, 2010
You'd likely have a better time in Budapest or Prague or Krakow than Vienna, though it's different for everyone. It's certainly cheaper and looser in those places. But I'd still urge you not to stay longer than your 90-day limit. If you really want to do this "right," I'd go to the very cheap and slightly underexplored places like Moldova or eastern Slovakia. Go where they is a real lack of ESL teachers and where you really can live on nearly nothing, and where you'd have a better chance of wriggling away with some sort of legal status. It'd be life-changing and you'd have more and better stories than those of simply another American slacker in a big capital. You'd walk away with a better sense of the people, and you'd be more likely to learn the language, too.
I don't want to get into a pedantic argument over whether Vienna should be considered East or West. It's sort of the crossroads of both - I see it as a peninsula of Western Europe jutting into the sea of Eastern Europe. Vienna is further east than the following capital cities of former Warsaw pact territories: Prague, Ljubljana and Zagreb, and it's about 50 kilometers west of Bratislava. Other than Stockholm (just barely) and Helsinki, it's the easternmost capital city of a Western European country.
You'd certainly never hear anyone with real knowledge of the situation describing Vienna as "Eastern European" in any sense at all. Geography is an incidental factor, at best, and ignores the last century's politics, standards of living and a zillion other relevant factors.
There used to be a nice term - "Mitteleuropa" (Central Europe, more or less) - to describe a part of Europe that wasn't quite Eastern, but was something a bit different from the West. Basically, it encompassed all the "German" or Alpine lands of the time (Germany, Switzerland, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Slovenia, Liechtenstein) as well as countries sandwiched between them (Czechoslovakia, Poland) and occasionally some outlying areas controlled by those already listed - northern Serbia, much of Croatia, Transylvania, etc.
At best, one might describe Vienna as "Central European," though today "Western" fits better - the terms "Central European" or "Mitteleuropa" are rarely used, except in some cultured cities on the "Eastern" side of those lands, who have scant claim to being Western, but don't especially like to be seen in the same light as Ukraine or Romania or Bulgaria. Prague, Budapest and Krakow would be among these cities.
Communism was the deciding factor in the East / West divide, and it's still seen that way. Vienna may be east of Prague, but that's simply a historical quirk. No one sees it as a deciding factor. To argue it on the basis of geography isn't simply ignoring the historical reality, it's baseless anyway. Per Wikipedia, look at candidates for the "center point of Europe" and see:
Locations currently vying for the distinction of being the centre of Europe include:
Bernotai, or Purnuškės, near Vilnius, in Lithuania;
a point on the island of Saaremaa in Estonia;
the village of Krahule, near Kremnica, in central Slovakia;
the small town of Rakhiv, or the village of Dilove near Rakhiv, in western Ukraine;
Suchowola, north of Białystok, in northeast Poland; and Toruń, in north-central Poland;
a point near Polotsk in Belarus.
As noted below, Guinness World Records recognises Bernotai, 26 km. north of Vilnius, Lithuania, as the "official" geographical midpoint of Europe. But that does not preclude other centres, depending on the methodology used in making the determination.
You'll notice that *all* of these locations are to the east of Vienna, which means - even if you want to take szyzgy's strictly geographic sense of the term "Eastern" - that Vienna is squarely in the West. So, of course, would be cities like Budapest and Prague, but few would argue that they're Western. So you can see why geography is poor way of defining "Eastern" Europe.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 4:56 PM on June 21, 2010
I know plenty of people who've been caught in Austria, probably more so than any other place.
What percentage of those people you know who've been caught in Austria were American citizens who were born in the US? I can tell you from 10 years of solid experience that there's little comparison between the way Austrian authorities deal with American citizens and the way they deal with citizens of former Warsaw Pact countries, Africans and Asians. I know that this double standard is unjust, unfair, racist and not commendable in any form or fashion. I don't condone it in the slightest, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a fact. We can separate talk about how things should be from how they are, and the reality on the ground is that native English speakers (so, include Australians and New Zealanders in the mix) are treated with a more forgiving standard here than outsiders from any other part of the world.
The double standard is, in my estimation, based on the facts that American, Australian and New Zealand citizens come from wealthy countries and are highly unlikely to apply for political asylum, and on the generalisation that they are less likely to try to abuse Austria's generous social system than immigrants from other (mostly poorer) countries. Again, I'm stating a fact based on my experience here. Austrians are simply not afraid of a wave of illegal immigrants from wealthy nations like the US, Australia and New Zealand and therefore, people from those countries have a much easier time staying under the radar here. And if they are caught, they're usually dealt with in a much friendlier manner than someone from a poorer country.
You'd certainly never hear anyone with real knowledge of the situation describing Vienna as "Eastern European" in any sense at all.
And the pedantry continues. I note your ad hominem (that I don't have any real knowledge of the situation), but won't otherwise respond to it. On this subject, I'll quote a few passages from one of my earlier posts in this thread:
"Vienna's in Eastern Europe (or ~40 kilometers west / ~100 kilometers south of it, at the most)."
"I see it [Vienna] as a peninsula of Western Europe jutting into the sea of Eastern Europe."
You've done a fine job arguing with a strawman here, Dee. If you'll reread my comments, you'll see that they're more nuanced than a simplistic "Vienna is in Eastern Europe." Geographically, Vienna is surrounded in three directions by former Warsaw Pact (cf. Eastern European) countries. Drive straight to the north and you'll cross the Czech Republic and Poland. Drive straight to the south and you'll cross Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia. Drive 45 kilometers to the east and you'll be in Slovakia. Of the 8 countries bordering Austria, 4 are former Warsaw Pact (cf. Eastern European) territories. No other Western European country comes close. Germany's next in line, with two former Warsaw Pact neighbors. Notice, this is not a strictly geographical argument - I'm making the factual observation that Vienna is geographically surrounded on three sides by countries that are, in modern times, considered "Eastern Europe." As such, Vienna has a distinct and unique claim to the title "Gateway to Eastern Europe."
In short, you're right about the history, cultural and geographical location of Vienna, but you're arguing the point with a fictitional character of your own creation, and not with me.
posted by syzygy at 1:44 AM on June 22, 2010
What percentage of those people you know who've been caught in Austria were American citizens who were born in the US? I can tell you from 10 years of solid experience that there's little comparison between the way Austrian authorities deal with American citizens and the way they deal with citizens of former Warsaw Pact countries, Africans and Asians. I know that this double standard is unjust, unfair, racist and not commendable in any form or fashion. I don't condone it in the slightest, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a fact. We can separate talk about how things should be from how they are, and the reality on the ground is that native English speakers (so, include Australians and New Zealanders in the mix) are treated with a more forgiving standard here than outsiders from any other part of the world.
The double standard is, in my estimation, based on the facts that American, Australian and New Zealand citizens come from wealthy countries and are highly unlikely to apply for political asylum, and on the generalisation that they are less likely to try to abuse Austria's generous social system than immigrants from other (mostly poorer) countries. Again, I'm stating a fact based on my experience here. Austrians are simply not afraid of a wave of illegal immigrants from wealthy nations like the US, Australia and New Zealand and therefore, people from those countries have a much easier time staying under the radar here. And if they are caught, they're usually dealt with in a much friendlier manner than someone from a poorer country.
You'd certainly never hear anyone with real knowledge of the situation describing Vienna as "Eastern European" in any sense at all.
And the pedantry continues. I note your ad hominem (that I don't have any real knowledge of the situation), but won't otherwise respond to it. On this subject, I'll quote a few passages from one of my earlier posts in this thread:
"Vienna's in Eastern Europe (or ~40 kilometers west / ~100 kilometers south of it, at the most)."
"I see it [Vienna] as a peninsula of Western Europe jutting into the sea of Eastern Europe."
You've done a fine job arguing with a strawman here, Dee. If you'll reread my comments, you'll see that they're more nuanced than a simplistic "Vienna is in Eastern Europe." Geographically, Vienna is surrounded in three directions by former Warsaw Pact (cf. Eastern European) countries. Drive straight to the north and you'll cross the Czech Republic and Poland. Drive straight to the south and you'll cross Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia. Drive 45 kilometers to the east and you'll be in Slovakia. Of the 8 countries bordering Austria, 4 are former Warsaw Pact (cf. Eastern European) territories. No other Western European country comes close. Germany's next in line, with two former Warsaw Pact neighbors. Notice, this is not a strictly geographical argument - I'm making the factual observation that Vienna is geographically surrounded on three sides by countries that are, in modern times, considered "Eastern Europe." As such, Vienna has a distinct and unique claim to the title "Gateway to Eastern Europe."
In short, you're right about the history, cultural and geographical location of Vienna, but you're arguing the point with a fictitional character of your own creation, and not with me.
posted by syzygy at 1:44 AM on June 22, 2010
What percentage of those people you know who've been caught in Austria were American citizens who were born in the US? I can tell you from 10 years of solid experience that there's little comparison between the way Austrian authorities deal with American citizens and the way they deal with citizens of former Warsaw Pact countries, Africans and Asians.
All of the people I know who've been caught have been either Canadian or American, and all white. I know plenty of other foreigners, but all of them are EU citizens (most of them from former Warsaw Pact countries now in the EU) who can live in Austria freely. Some were caught at the airport, but most were caught travelling regionally - a weekend trip to Budapest or Prague - by train or by car, as Americans (and Canadians) must still show passports to travel between Schengen countries, as opposed to EU residents, who don't have to (and wouldn't be under this 90-day restriction in any case.) They were all caught re-entering Austria, by Austrian officials, although they were committing the same illegal act when non-Austrian border officials checked their papers. The situation may be much worse for citizens of Pakistan or Nigeria; I don't doubt it - Austria's a pretty xenophobic place in many ways. But the salient point is, that it's still a risk for Americans.
"Vienna's in Eastern Europe (or ~40 kilometers west / ~100 kilometers south of it, at the most)."
While it's geographically true that Eastern Europe isn't too far, Vienna has really no claim to anything Eastern European aside from being nearby - but so are Turkey and Finland and Italy and Azerbaijan or Georgia (off the top of my head), depending on which way you're coming from! People in the Prague or western Hungary or Bratislava will all claim that they're the "gateway" to Eastern Europe, that it's in those place that Western culture begins to meld into Eastern culture, and that's true. (There's an obvious cultural from one side of the Hungarian / Romanian border about a dozen times more distinct than the Hungarian / Austrian one, for instance.)
(Or as the train ticket collector put it on my first trip to Hungary, when I knew we'd already been through Vienna and I asked excitedly if we were in Hungary yet, "Except for the border agents and town names, there'd be no way to tell.")
The "West" has had variable borders, and Prague, Budapest and Bratislava have been in both the West and the East - so to speak - in the past century. Vienna's always been quite squarely in the West, unless you factor in the historical Mitteleuropa, in which case it's just in the middle of that, with "East" starting hundreds of miles away.
Of the 8 countries bordering Austria, 4 are former Warsaw Pact (cf. Eastern European) territories. No other Western European country comes close.
Finland legally borders four countries (one, with Estonia, is a legal border on water), half them are former Warsaw Pact countries - the same percentage as Austria. In fact, the percentage of Finland that borders former Warsaw Pact countries is about 10% higher than can be said of Austria (that's not including the sea border with Estonia.) So there is a country which comes closer. But no one would call Finland the gateway to Eastern Europe, though on your skimpy basis it's not different from Austria. In fact, Finland would have more of a claim on the basis of history (it was ruled by Russia for more than half of the last two centuries) and linguistics.
If you're proud of Austria's geographic proximity to Eastern Europe, that's fine. But your "nuance" was misleading - you did say that Austria was in Eastern Europe or "almost" (to paraphrase), when in nearly every meaningful sense - history, culture and popular perception on both sides of the border - it's never even been close.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 3:26 AM on June 22, 2010
All of the people I know who've been caught have been either Canadian or American, and all white. I know plenty of other foreigners, but all of them are EU citizens (most of them from former Warsaw Pact countries now in the EU) who can live in Austria freely. Some were caught at the airport, but most were caught travelling regionally - a weekend trip to Budapest or Prague - by train or by car, as Americans (and Canadians) must still show passports to travel between Schengen countries, as opposed to EU residents, who don't have to (and wouldn't be under this 90-day restriction in any case.) They were all caught re-entering Austria, by Austrian officials, although they were committing the same illegal act when non-Austrian border officials checked their papers. The situation may be much worse for citizens of Pakistan or Nigeria; I don't doubt it - Austria's a pretty xenophobic place in many ways. But the salient point is, that it's still a risk for Americans.
"Vienna's in Eastern Europe (or ~40 kilometers west / ~100 kilometers south of it, at the most)."
While it's geographically true that Eastern Europe isn't too far, Vienna has really no claim to anything Eastern European aside from being nearby - but so are Turkey and Finland and Italy and Azerbaijan or Georgia (off the top of my head), depending on which way you're coming from! People in the Prague or western Hungary or Bratislava will all claim that they're the "gateway" to Eastern Europe, that it's in those place that Western culture begins to meld into Eastern culture, and that's true. (There's an obvious cultural from one side of the Hungarian / Romanian border about a dozen times more distinct than the Hungarian / Austrian one, for instance.)
(Or as the train ticket collector put it on my first trip to Hungary, when I knew we'd already been through Vienna and I asked excitedly if we were in Hungary yet, "Except for the border agents and town names, there'd be no way to tell.")
The "West" has had variable borders, and Prague, Budapest and Bratislava have been in both the West and the East - so to speak - in the past century. Vienna's always been quite squarely in the West, unless you factor in the historical Mitteleuropa, in which case it's just in the middle of that, with "East" starting hundreds of miles away.
Of the 8 countries bordering Austria, 4 are former Warsaw Pact (cf. Eastern European) territories. No other Western European country comes close.
Finland legally borders four countries (one, with Estonia, is a legal border on water), half them are former Warsaw Pact countries - the same percentage as Austria. In fact, the percentage of Finland that borders former Warsaw Pact countries is about 10% higher than can be said of Austria (that's not including the sea border with Estonia.) So there is a country which comes closer. But no one would call Finland the gateway to Eastern Europe, though on your skimpy basis it's not different from Austria. In fact, Finland would have more of a claim on the basis of history (it was ruled by Russia for more than half of the last two centuries) and linguistics.
If you're proud of Austria's geographic proximity to Eastern Europe, that's fine. But your "nuance" was misleading - you did say that Austria was in Eastern Europe or "almost" (to paraphrase), when in nearly every meaningful sense - history, culture and popular perception on both sides of the border - it's never even been close.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 3:26 AM on June 22, 2010
All of the people I know who've been caught have been either Canadian or American, and all white.
I certainly can't argue with your personal experience. I can only say that it differs wildly from mine, and I've known dozens of Americans who've skirted the rules with no repercussions here. I never claimed that there was no risk, and I never recommended that the poster stay longer than the 90 days allowed on a Schengen tourist visa. I've simply reported my view of the situation, as based on my subjective experience, having lived here for 10 years.
While it's geographically true that Eastern Europe isn't too far
That's the only claim I ever made. I'm glad we're in agreement about it.
If you're proud of Austria's geographic proximity to Eastern Europe, that's fine.
It would be silly to be proud of any place's geographic relationship to any other place - I'm certainly not.
But your "nuance" was misleading
I'd argue that your misinterpretation of my nuance was misleading.
you did say that Austria was in Eastern Europe or "almost" (to paraphrase), when in nearly every meaningful sense - history, culture and popular perception on both sides of the border - it's never even been close.
You're right -- in nearly every meaningful sense other than the geographical one, Vienna isn't close to Eastern Europe. It is close, in the geographical sense, which was my sole claim. I'll refer you back to an earlier quote:
"I see it [Vienna / Eastern Austria] as a peninsula of Western Europe jutting into the sea of Eastern Europe."
posted by syzygy at 4:08 AM on June 22, 2010
I certainly can't argue with your personal experience. I can only say that it differs wildly from mine, and I've known dozens of Americans who've skirted the rules with no repercussions here. I never claimed that there was no risk, and I never recommended that the poster stay longer than the 90 days allowed on a Schengen tourist visa. I've simply reported my view of the situation, as based on my subjective experience, having lived here for 10 years.
While it's geographically true that Eastern Europe isn't too far
That's the only claim I ever made. I'm glad we're in agreement about it.
If you're proud of Austria's geographic proximity to Eastern Europe, that's fine.
It would be silly to be proud of any place's geographic relationship to any other place - I'm certainly not.
But your "nuance" was misleading
I'd argue that your misinterpretation of my nuance was misleading.
you did say that Austria was in Eastern Europe or "almost" (to paraphrase), when in nearly every meaningful sense - history, culture and popular perception on both sides of the border - it's never even been close.
You're right -- in nearly every meaningful sense other than the geographical one, Vienna isn't close to Eastern Europe. It is close, in the geographical sense, which was my sole claim. I'll refer you back to an earlier quote:
"I see it [Vienna / Eastern Austria] as a peninsula of Western Europe jutting into the sea of Eastern Europe."
posted by syzygy at 4:08 AM on June 22, 2010
To be clear, my statement regarding Vienna's proximity to the East has a political and a geographical component. Unfortunately, human language is often imprecise, and some are wont to attribute uncharitable interpretations to imprecise statements, for whatever reason. In order to head off further misunderstanding, I'll try to clear up the imprecision in my earlier statements:
Statement: Vienna is geographically close to Eastern Europe (for the common, modern definition of Eastern Europe which includes all territories that were once under Communist rule).
Note: No where have I claimed that Vienna is culturally near or a part of Eastern Europe. I have also not claimed that Vienna is located in Eastern Europe from a purely geographical standpoint (whereby the continent of Europe is divided equally into eastern and western halves based purely on territory and irrespective of political history). I also have not claimed that Vienna is historically a part of Eastern Europe. Those who would like to argue these points need to find an opponent who's actually made these claims.
For the sake of posterity and clarity, from my first reply in this thread:
"You may also want to consider Vienna. It's smack in the middle of some of the other cities you've listed. The economy is better here, and it's a little more civilized than some of the Eastern European cities."
/pedantry /derail /tschüss /ciao /szervusz /do videnja
posted by syzygy at 5:07 AM on June 22, 2010
Statement: Vienna is geographically close to Eastern Europe (for the common, modern definition of Eastern Europe which includes all territories that were once under Communist rule).
Note: No where have I claimed that Vienna is culturally near or a part of Eastern Europe. I have also not claimed that Vienna is located in Eastern Europe from a purely geographical standpoint (whereby the continent of Europe is divided equally into eastern and western halves based purely on territory and irrespective of political history). I also have not claimed that Vienna is historically a part of Eastern Europe. Those who would like to argue these points need to find an opponent who's actually made these claims.
For the sake of posterity and clarity, from my first reply in this thread:
"You may also want to consider Vienna. It's smack in the middle of some of the other cities you've listed. The economy is better here, and it's a little more civilized than some of the Eastern European cities."
/pedantry /derail /tschüss /ciao /szervusz /do videnja
posted by syzygy at 5:07 AM on June 22, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by jojobobo at 12:25 AM on June 21, 2010