Can cats learn pointing?
June 19, 2010 2:15 PM   Subscribe

We want our cats to understand pointing. Has anyone ever taught their cat to look where you indicate, instead of sniffing your finger? If so, how?
posted by ovvl to Pets & Animals (35 answers total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
 
We want our cats to understand pointing.

HAHAHAHAHA, you poor foolish human, you're so cute. Now run along and fix their dinner, you theatrics grow tiring to them. If you're good, they'll allow you pet them later.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:19 PM on June 19, 2010 [73 favorites]


My cat did it one time; I was completely shocked. It never happened again.
posted by free pie at 2:20 PM on June 19, 2010


My cat doesn't get pointing, but will look where I look if I say his name while I'm doing it.
posted by ctmf at 2:21 PM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]


The only thing I can suggest is to mimic the way they excitedly stare when they see a bird out the window or something interesting and maybe they will want to see what you are looking at that is so interesting. But once they see what you are all excited about, you can't necessarily get them to care. Maybe you can train them to 'understand pointing' but comprehension of or caring about why you are pointing is another matter.
posted by GleepGlop at 2:23 PM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]


Unfortunately some abilities are passed on by breeding (i.e. genetics) and cannot be trained. I don't know about cats specifically, but it's been widely demonstrated that a major difference between domesticated dogs and wild wolves is their ability to understand human cues such as eye-contact, pointing etc, and that you can "give" wolves these abilities by cross-breeding them with dogs.
posted by randomstriker at 2:27 PM on June 19, 2010


I actually read an article (based on a paper) about one of the fundamental cognitive differences between cats and dogs is that dogs understand pointing (eventually, most of them), while cats do not (most of them).

In my experiments with my dog and my cats, I can confirm this. While I believe my cat might be trainable to simulate following my finger for some tasks, I really don't believe he "gets it" like my spaniel does.
posted by Netzapper at 2:28 PM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]


Folk wisdom seems to indicate that cats are not trainable. You can only do this with dogs because they're so congenitally preoccupied with pleasing their masters. The idea of pleasing or cooperating with another being is utterly foreign to cats.
posted by clockzero at 2:29 PM on June 19, 2010


Yeah, I've had cats most of my life, some of them very well trained, and not one of them ever got pointing...I think you might be disappointed here.
posted by nevercalm at 2:29 PM on June 19, 2010


I don't remember if any cats I've ever had could follow pointing, but the way I've taught my babies to look where I was pointing has been to sort of snap my fingers (on the pointing hand) while waving my finger back and forth from the baby's line of sight to pointing at the exciting thing. (Like back and forth while snapping so maybe they'll look for the noise and follow the finger.) I also say, "Look at the choo-choo! See the choo-choo! Look there's a choo-choo!" Sometimes it works. Eventually they learn. And hey, I look silly at the zoo in the meantime. "Look at the elephant! The one right there!!"

So, it seems like that would be a way to try and teach cats. No idea if it would work. I had a cat that would fetch pennies and mints, so who knows.
posted by artychoke at 2:33 PM on June 19, 2010


I can't find a source right now, but I remember reading that the ability to comprehend pointing is one of the cognitive skills that distinguishes humans and some higher primates from the rest of the animal kingdom.

In other words, good luck with that. Over time, your cat may begin to associate your funny arm-waving with, say, the presence of food in its bowl, but it won't be an indication that it actually understands what pointing means.
posted by embrangled at 2:39 PM on June 19, 2010


The only cat I've ever had — and I've had cats all my life — that does this is my current mini-lion, who is very likely a Maine Coon mix, but that's unconfirmed since the poor furry dear was abandoned when he was not yet 3 months old. He looks where I point, plays fetch with his bouncy balls (he catches them between his paws while they bounce, puts them on the floor and then pushes them so they roll back to me), and asks to take showers. In other words, he's not a normal cat. At all.

With my other cat, when I point, he looks at my finger and purrs. If I insist on pointing, he'll approach my finger and rub up against it. This is on the "normal" spectrum of cat behavior.
posted by fraula at 2:42 PM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]


My cat and I " cooperate " in hunting insects inside the apartment (she's in it for fun, I hate pests) I think she has gotten to the point where she realises the insect is at the other end of my pointed finger. She started out by following my eyes, and then eventually realised the synchronicity of me pointing the same direction.
She cannot abstract the concept, though. For her pointing only counts when there are bugs involved.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:46 PM on June 19, 2010


Honestly, I don't think there's any hope. I've trained my cats to respond to their names, to walk through doors when I open them and wave, to stop bad behavior when I snap my fingers, and to leave when i say go. I've heard its impossible for them to learn it, like a lot of the other users. I also suggest looking excitedly in the desired direction, and maybe they'll get the hint.
posted by shesaysgo at 2:54 PM on June 19, 2010


Some (very few) of my cats have gotten pointing. We didn't train them they just figured it out. As for training them to do it, good luck. Most of my dogs figured it out on their own.
posted by fifilaru at 3:00 PM on June 19, 2010


I'd start with target training. Once you get the cat attentive to the target as you're touching it, I'd pull back slowly (maybe half an inch every few sessions, if not even more slowly). Eventually the target will be where you're pointing, rather than where you're touching.

Cats can be trained--I've known cats to even play fetch--and just about anything can be done if you do it in baby steps. It just takes itty, bitty, teeny, tiny baby steps sometimes.
posted by galadriel at 3:09 PM on June 19, 2010


They won't look where I point, but I can sometimes get them to look where I'm looking - make eye contact, look over, look back, look over again. Though usually they're not all that interested in the thing they finally look at; much more interesting is how strange and adorable the human is being today.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 3:23 PM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]




My experience is that my cat will never ever understand pointing, but she does understand tapping. I can point at something, and she just wants to watch my hand. But as soon as I tap on whatever I was pointing at, she's there.

But that's just one cat based anecdote....
posted by krisak at 4:03 PM on June 19, 2010


I have never had a cat that understood pointing, but if I pretend to throw something, they'll all look where they think the thrown object should have landed. Perhaps you could pretend to throw something to the spot where you'd like them to look.
posted by magicbus at 4:12 PM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]


Omnomnom: "My cat and I " cooperate " in hunting insects inside the apartment (she's in it for fun, I hate pests) I think she has gotten to the point where she realises the insect is at the other end of my pointed finger. She started out by following my eyes, and then eventually realised the synchronicity of me pointing the same direction.
She cannot abstract the concept, though. For her pointing only counts when there are bugs involved.
"

Mine are like this too. If the thing i am pointing at is at the very end of my finger, they will take a look, but it doesn't work from across the room.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 4:16 PM on June 19, 2010


There was a great bit on this in a Radiolab episode I recently listened to, I believe it was "Animal Minds." One of the differences between wolves and domestic dogs is that dogs understand pointing, while wolves do not. However, wolves that were raised by people from pups DO understand pointing.

The theory there is that it's one of the many ways that dogs learn to "speak human." We teach them unintentionally, by pointing at things that (the dog eventually learns) they want. The ball, the treat, whatever.

This all hinges on dogs and wolves being animals that rely on cooperative hunting. That's where I think you get the high failure rate of pointing for cats. Not being cooperative hunters, pointing isn't something a cat will pick up naturally.

That being said, I think your best chance for success is with your basic conditioning regime. The first task being to clicker train your cat. Which isn't as hard as it sounds - just click the clicker, then hand out a little dab of meat-flavored baby food.

If I suddenly whip my head around and stare with great excitement out the window, my cats will look up, too. Do that, while pointing. When they look up when you do this, click and treat. Eventually you'll be able to just point out the window, and they'll look up. Then start pointing in other directions.
posted by ErikaB at 4:27 PM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]


Cats just don't get pointing. I would be pleasantly surprised if anyone could train a cat to do just that. But trained they certainly can be.

A few years ago I took my son to see a travelling circus (on Ă–land - the swedish holiday island) and my goodness me if they didnt have a routine with cats. Six or seven cats walked into the ring accompanied by raucous tones of a maroccan band, subsequently doing all the pointless things that other circus-animals get up to. Junping through hoops and climbing wee ladders and such. And the returning to their designated cushions in a ring around the trainer.
I was flabbergasted - in particularly Johnsonian way.

For those unfamiliar with the good doctors observation on being shown a dog walking on its hind legs. He said it was remarkable - not that it performed particularly well but that it could do it at all
posted by jan murray at 4:49 PM on June 19, 2010


Best answer: My cat understands pointing but I didn't explicitly teach him. If necessary I just gesture more exaggeratedly until he gets the picture. These interactions mainly involve food.

Him: "Meow."
Me: [points at full cat food dish]
Him: [glances disdainfully at full cat food dish and then back at me] "Meow."

As a side note, I am not sure if you appreciate the consequences of what you are attempting. You should consider that any additional skill your cats learn will be used against you in the war. They disobey you not because they don't understand you, but because they are assholes. Making them smarter will not improve their behavior. It will only improve their manipulation skills. A dumb cat is better than a smugly insolent cat who doesn't know his PLACE. Beware. There's my kitty! There's my little prince! C'mere, I set out a little buffet for you! ...No? Nothing? Come on, there's like five different open cans here! Too bad, that's all you get! NO DON'T KNOCK THAT OVER fine i'll go back to the store.
posted by granted at 5:15 PM on June 19, 2010 [11 favorites]


Their brains simply aren't equipped to understand this--it's a hugely complicated cognitive skill basically. It is the rudiments of "theory of mind"-- ie, understanding that other beings know other things and being able to learn from them.

Babies are cognitively prepared to understand other minds, it's believed that this has to do with mirror neurons. These are cells that fire in response to someone else doing an action or having an emotion. Mirror neurons basically run a simulation of "what it would be like in my body" if I was doing or feeling what the other person is.

So, a newborn naturally cries when another baby cries, smiles in response to a smile once he or she is able to do. Pointing is a way to share cognitive space and it's not really known how much of this dogs actually get.

You can train cats-- but it's not done by pointing!
posted by Maias at 5:50 PM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]


Two data points.

One of my cats (the poly) understands pointing. You can tell him to go somewhere, and point, and he does. I do note that he looks at my finger, and then follows where I point to when I do this. He also understands that the laser pointer is in my hand and causes the red dot.

The other one (the grey meatball) does not understand pointing. She looks at your finger. And then looks at your finger some more. She also doesn't understand a lot of the commands that the poly does, and she TOTALLY doesn't understand the red glowy dot bug that climbs walls and vanishes randomly (the laser pointer).

I think cats have as much variation in this as dogs do. I've seen dogs that do not understand pointing, and dogs that did. For the record, I've also seen a rabbit, a lizard, and multiple birds that understood pointing (and a tame crow that WOULD POINT at things he wanted with his foot). So the claim made above that its the cognitive difference between the two animals doesn't seem accurate to me.
posted by strixus at 6:15 PM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]


My cats understand the "you, yes you, you are being an asshole to the other cats / you are in a place where you should not be, leave the room now" type of pointing. I got in the habit of pointing at them while making a noise they did not like as a form of discipline. Now the "hey you, leave now" gesture alone carries a lot of weight.
posted by Wossname at 6:36 PM on June 19, 2010


50% of my cats "get" pointing. The other two do not. One of those two fetches. We did not teach her this skill. The two who do understand pointing are male. I don't think that has anything to do with it, just an observation. One of the pointer-getters is really, really dumb. Like, colossally dumb. But he totally gets the point of pointing, so to speak.
posted by cooker girl at 7:29 PM on June 19, 2010


I've had cats attempt to manipulate doorknobs and similarly complex things. I think they're plenty smart - but pointing is just alien to them. My smartest cat ever (who fetches and is pretty good at understanding how a superball will bounce, etc.) got a point once or twice at a range of about 4 inches from the indicated object. That's all.

I've also seen my cat (sitting facing the door) look at me, carefully making eye contact, then look at the doorknob, then look at me, then doorknob, then me again, etc. You could almost smell the frustration that I couldn't understand something as simple as a directed gaze ("point" in cat-body-language).

So I agree with the people who suggest "pointing" with your eyes.
posted by richyoung at 9:23 PM on June 19, 2010


My furball does not follow pointing, but she will fetch (when she feels like it).

This thread also lacks the required cat picture.
posted by Heretical at 10:02 PM on June 19, 2010


If one of my cats is sitting in my lap and I want him to get down, I say his name and "Down" and point to where I want him to go, whether it's the floor or another spot on the couch or wherever. This works pretty consistently, so he gets pointing in the context of "you go here." However, neither of my cats really get the concept of pointing in the context of "you look here" unless my finger is just about touching the item I want them to look at, usually a treat.

I do think this is trainable though using galadriel's method of starting by touching the treat with your finger, then over time slowly moving further and further away. Combining it with a verbal command, like his name and "Look" would probably help as well.
posted by platinum at 11:41 PM on June 19, 2010


A relative of mine is dating a guy whose specialty is evolutionary biology, and he gave me a fascinating spiel one time about the social co-evolution of humans and dogs.

The story - as I remember it - was that humans and dogs are apparently the only animals in which the whites of the eyes are visible when they move their eyes, giving a cue to like-minded observers that "hey, I'm looking over in *that* direction..."

Somehow through this (as a cause, an effect, or both), it came to be that a human or a dog could look at a third object, and the other humans & dogs around could interpret that as being specifically about the third object and take a look for themselves. This understanding is supposedly unique between our two species, and it extends from just looking to pointing as well.

So, if you want an animal that can make the cognitive leap from "he's looking at something" to "maybe I should look at it also" then you're barking up the wrong tree if you think it's a cat.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:28 AM on June 20, 2010


I just finished reading The Story of Edgar Sawtelle, which is about highly intelligent dogs, and the book frequently mentions "shared gaze exercises". The author's blog on the book (scroll down a bit) mentions this as something more commonly known as "gaze following", and that it is very difficult behaviour to produce, even in dogs. Also links to the Wikipedia entry for "cooperative eye hypothosis" which is what UbuRoivas mentions above.

Sounds like it's a stretch even for dogs, but if you had a pet bonobo you could probably make it happen.
posted by Gortuk at 6:38 AM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]


I think this might do-able. Cats do not understand pointing intuitively like dogs (and domesticated foxes!) do, but you can maybe, maybe, teach them using simple conditioning type training if they're very food driven. I taught my ex-cat to sit whenever I had food or he wouldn't get any. He sat for his meals too.

The problem though is I don't know you would begin to make the I point, you look, you get treat connection, because you need to somehow get them to look where you point and that you'll have to figure out on your own, which I guess is what you're asking. =/

Maybe try making a point + treat connection.

Then do a point + something happens in direction of point (noise? movement? just enough to get their attention but not make them run off) & they look + treat connection.

And then eventually maybe hope that they start to associate that point means they look because something might happen, and then they get a treat?

I dunno. I've always failed at training an animal (dog or cat) to do anything other than sit if I have food!
posted by quirks at 7:11 AM on June 20, 2010


Response by poster: Thanks so much. We'd heard that about dogs doing pointing and not cats. The problem is, they seem so damn close so much of the time. Laser-pointer is an excellent case in point. They know the dot comes from the thingy and they intentionally choose to pretend it doesn't. Now we want them to learn that the xbox controller is connected to the things happening on screen because...well because they bug us when we're playing and we think if they got into it they'd have more fun. One cat is super technological. She likes to play guitar, is obsessed with the synthesizer and pushes buttons to make things go. The other is more dreamy, but she watches TV and reads the 3D visual/audio space.
posted by ovvl at 9:22 AM on June 20, 2010


Making them smarter will not improve their behavior.

You can't teach IQ - i.e. you can't teach "smart." You can train a person or an animal, even increase their knowledge base, but their ability to understand and use said information is a constant, generally speaking. When a dog goes and fetches the paper in the morning its not because he "got smarter" - its because he was smart enough to adopt said behavior through training in the first place.

This is why cats are stupid and dogs are far superior. Dogs show a propensity far beyond that of cats to drastically increase their knowledge base, memory, and ability to be trained.

Cats, in addition, are often thought to be "cleaner" animals. But if you ever watch one for a few minutes, you'll come to the sickening realization that they are actually covered - covered - in cat spit.
posted by allkindsoftime at 5:50 AM on June 23, 2010 [1 favorite]


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