Is this house going to suck the life out of us and leave us sad, withered husks?
June 13, 2010 10:52 AM Subscribe
Homebuying: tell me about your money pit.
We're considering a house that needs a ton of work. Chimney has to come down, slate roof needs to be repaired. Second floor bathroom needs to be installed (though the plumbing already runs up there.) Some undefined electrical needs redoing because it's old.
It's been filled with potheads and garbage for ten years (it was a rental) and it's filled with trash and yellow pot smoke stained walls. Everything needs repainting and the original wood fixtures need updating and refinishing. The kitchen floor is crap and needs to be pulled and replaced.
I kinda like it. Mr. Llama's kind of horrified at the amount of work and money we're talking about. I don't mind prioritizing a few things year by year, and I'm not afraid to figure out how to install insulation or put up a wall on my own.
We're first time home buyers.
Tell me your tales of woe and moments of triumph in the reckoning with your money pit. I need first person accounts.
Many thankyous.
We're considering a house that needs a ton of work. Chimney has to come down, slate roof needs to be repaired. Second floor bathroom needs to be installed (though the plumbing already runs up there.) Some undefined electrical needs redoing because it's old.
It's been filled with potheads and garbage for ten years (it was a rental) and it's filled with trash and yellow pot smoke stained walls. Everything needs repainting and the original wood fixtures need updating and refinishing. The kitchen floor is crap and needs to be pulled and replaced.
I kinda like it. Mr. Llama's kind of horrified at the amount of work and money we're talking about. I don't mind prioritizing a few things year by year, and I'm not afraid to figure out how to install insulation or put up a wall on my own.
We're first time home buyers.
Tell me your tales of woe and moments of triumph in the reckoning with your money pit. I need first person accounts.
Many thankyous.
If you do decide to go ahead with it, do any painting or refinishing of floors BEFORE you move in.
I learned this the hard way.
posted by bolognius maximus at 11:06 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
I learned this the hard way.
posted by bolognius maximus at 11:06 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
First question - how handy are either of you?
If you've previously figured out things like - how to get the wheel with the flat tire off the car, how to change brake pads, how to remove and replace a toilet fill valve, how to replace an electrical outlet then you are in a good place to consider this.
Note a few things from your post:
Slate roof - no way a first timer should tackle that. Materials are expensive and there's a lot of experience needed to get it done right.
Chimney - same answer plus - doing the chimney wrong can lead to CO poisoning and death in your sleep / OR / house burns down.
The rest of it - there are plenty of books with pictures. Go slow, be willing to ask lots of questions and you CAN do this. If anyone in your circle of friends is in the trades or knows someone who is try to cultivate an "I buy you dinner and drinks and you give me advice" relationship. Unbelievably valuable.
Finally, before you buy - check the City's codes and requirements. In some cities a person who is not a licensed electrician CANNOT do electric work. In some - you can if it's your house. Figure out what work you want to do will require a permit and which won't. City inspectors can be very harsh with homeowners whom they perceive to be doing shoddy work.
Also - if it's in that bad of condition are you sure you can get a loan to buy it? (you didn't mention that so maybe you are paying cash but usually lenders won't lend against uninhabitable places and what you are describing meets the definition of uninhabitable.)
The larger problem is the psychological stress of living in a complete shithole for the first 4 - 5- 6 years. It is very very draining to come home every day to a place that is awful - and it will be awful for a long time before it's even habitable enough that you'd say "yea, I could see living here if I had too." Further, the smoke stained walls won't require paint. They'll require tearing out down to the studs (and you'll want to anyway because dollars to donuts it's not insulated anyway AND having the walls open makes the electric retrofit a zillion times easier) and replace with drywall. Just factor that in.
That said - old home renovation and repair is a huge amount of fun and the satisfaction of knowing that everything you see was done with your own hands cannot be underestimated.
Just know that it's a huge commitment. You are buying in to every weekend and free moment either spent on construction work or spent doing something else while worrying that the house progress is not happening.
I've owned this (not my first house) since 2005. In that time more than half has been entirely remodeled and the other half is on the list for the next few years. It's great fun and rewarding but don't underestimate the stress of coming home from a long day at work only to remember that the fridge is in the living room and you only have an electric hot plate to cook on because the kitchen is gutted. It's fun like camping the first few times but after a while it gets really old really fast. Or, my personal favorite - the infinite quantities of nano-scale dust you stir up which isn't fully removed until about 3 months after the work is all done.
posted by BrooksCooper at 11:11 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you've previously figured out things like - how to get the wheel with the flat tire off the car, how to change brake pads, how to remove and replace a toilet fill valve, how to replace an electrical outlet then you are in a good place to consider this.
Note a few things from your post:
Slate roof - no way a first timer should tackle that. Materials are expensive and there's a lot of experience needed to get it done right.
Chimney - same answer plus - doing the chimney wrong can lead to CO poisoning and death in your sleep / OR / house burns down.
The rest of it - there are plenty of books with pictures. Go slow, be willing to ask lots of questions and you CAN do this. If anyone in your circle of friends is in the trades or knows someone who is try to cultivate an "I buy you dinner and drinks and you give me advice" relationship. Unbelievably valuable.
Finally, before you buy - check the City's codes and requirements. In some cities a person who is not a licensed electrician CANNOT do electric work. In some - you can if it's your house. Figure out what work you want to do will require a permit and which won't. City inspectors can be very harsh with homeowners whom they perceive to be doing shoddy work.
Also - if it's in that bad of condition are you sure you can get a loan to buy it? (you didn't mention that so maybe you are paying cash but usually lenders won't lend against uninhabitable places and what you are describing meets the definition of uninhabitable.)
The larger problem is the psychological stress of living in a complete shithole for the first 4 - 5- 6 years. It is very very draining to come home every day to a place that is awful - and it will be awful for a long time before it's even habitable enough that you'd say "yea, I could see living here if I had too." Further, the smoke stained walls won't require paint. They'll require tearing out down to the studs (and you'll want to anyway because dollars to donuts it's not insulated anyway AND having the walls open makes the electric retrofit a zillion times easier) and replace with drywall. Just factor that in.
That said - old home renovation and repair is a huge amount of fun and the satisfaction of knowing that everything you see was done with your own hands cannot be underestimated.
Just know that it's a huge commitment. You are buying in to every weekend and free moment either spent on construction work or spent doing something else while worrying that the house progress is not happening.
I've owned this (not my first house) since 2005. In that time more than half has been entirely remodeled and the other half is on the list for the next few years. It's great fun and rewarding but don't underestimate the stress of coming home from a long day at work only to remember that the fridge is in the living room and you only have an electric hot plate to cook on because the kitchen is gutted. It's fun like camping the first few times but after a while it gets really old really fast. Or, my personal favorite - the infinite quantities of nano-scale dust you stir up which isn't fully removed until about 3 months after the work is all done.
posted by BrooksCooper at 11:11 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
The problems you described are the ones you know about. Once you get started, you'll uncover circles of hell.
posted by sageleaf at 11:14 AM on June 13, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by sageleaf at 11:14 AM on June 13, 2010 [11 favorites]
If it were me, I'd only consider it if I was getting a hell of a deal on the house, even by housing recession standards.
Also, depending on your income and location (sometimes down to the neighborhood level) there may be local rehab loan programs to help you fund some of your remodeling. Sometimes these are outright grants, or have some kind of loan forgiveness if you pay on them for a certain period of time. Check with your city, county, state, etc.
posted by cabingirl at 11:16 AM on June 13, 2010
Also, depending on your income and location (sometimes down to the neighborhood level) there may be local rehab loan programs to help you fund some of your remodeling. Sometimes these are outright grants, or have some kind of loan forgiveness if you pay on them for a certain period of time. Check with your city, county, state, etc.
posted by cabingirl at 11:16 AM on June 13, 2010
That sounds like a recipe for disaster... I am reading into the fact that this is your first house and that you're planning on "prioritizing year by year" means that you don't have a lot of money saved up and that you'll plan on fixing things as you have the money. This is a terrible idea. Especially since you'll be living in the house while you're renovating it (and won't have the money to move into a hotel for a week (or much more) when something critical, such as kitchen flooring and cabinetry needs to be installed, or hardwood floors redone).
Many many home improvement projects take a ton more work and expertise than you're probably imagining. Beyond finding time in your lives to do it yourselves (imagine coming home from a hard days work and then getting started on a really frustrating project that you gave up on last night, and the night before, and that sat waiting in the "priority list" for a month, and that you've been stepping over or working around for many more months before that), you also have to have the expertise, equipment (you mention hanging a new wall like it's nothing; it ain't) and expert advice you need to get it done. And then you'll also need the money. And you probably won't have money to hire someone to do it. And you won't have the money to replace the materials that you'll invariably screw up your first time trying it.
Those four things: time, tools, experience, advice, and money won't all come together for every project easily.
Note: I am not handy and neither is my wife. We considered doing this for our first home and didn't. And we're still happily married. I'm not saying it's causal, but it's definitely correlated.
posted by zpousman at 11:19 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Many many home improvement projects take a ton more work and expertise than you're probably imagining. Beyond finding time in your lives to do it yourselves (imagine coming home from a hard days work and then getting started on a really frustrating project that you gave up on last night, and the night before, and that sat waiting in the "priority list" for a month, and that you've been stepping over or working around for many more months before that), you also have to have the expertise, equipment (you mention hanging a new wall like it's nothing; it ain't) and expert advice you need to get it done. And then you'll also need the money. And you probably won't have money to hire someone to do it. And you won't have the money to replace the materials that you'll invariably screw up your first time trying it.
Those four things: time, tools, experience, advice, and money won't all come together for every project easily.
Note: I am not handy and neither is my wife. We considered doing this for our first home and didn't. And we're still happily married. I'm not saying it's causal, but it's definitely correlated.
posted by zpousman at 11:19 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Okay, just to clarify -- yes, we can get the loan to buy the place, and the additional loan to fix it up. It's still comes in cheaper (by 50K or so) than buying a nice house in the same neighborhood without the hassle.
On the roof, chimney and electrical--roof and chimney we'd outsource, electrical we might do. We're both reasonably handy and good students. Mr. Llama is good with electricity. We are both the kinds of people who figure out and fix stuff.
You people are doing nothing for my Disney-like fantasy of a couple renovating a home! ;) I thought that was the American dream. Apparently my American dream was developed watching Beatlejuice.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:26 AM on June 13, 2010
On the roof, chimney and electrical--roof and chimney we'd outsource, electrical we might do. We're both reasonably handy and good students. Mr. Llama is good with electricity. We are both the kinds of people who figure out and fix stuff.
You people are doing nothing for my Disney-like fantasy of a couple renovating a home! ;) I thought that was the American dream. Apparently my American dream was developed watching Beatlejuice.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:26 AM on June 13, 2010
Response by poster: The difficulties you will encounter with this approach is the stuff that needs to get done right away (for example, a roof leak or crap wiring)
No, I know it's not the fun stuff that comes first.
But you guys are so universally against it you've swayed me and I'll leave Mr. Llama alone on the topic, and I'm sure he'll send you many psychic waves of gratitude.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:28 AM on June 13, 2010
No, I know it's not the fun stuff that comes first.
But you guys are so universally against it you've swayed me and I'll leave Mr. Llama alone on the topic, and I'm sure he'll send you many psychic waves of gratitude.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:28 AM on June 13, 2010
My personal experience first, then my advice. My parents bought a whopper of a fixer-upper 15 years ago. They started with modest projects, and had an architect draw up plans for additions to better fit our family of 7. 15 years later, the project is still on-going, largely because the house became my mom's big project and she's always thinking "What can I do next?" And yet the only area that hasn't been remodeled in some way is the original master bedroom and master bathroom - the bathroom is grim, and it's been that way for 15 years. It hasn't been good for their finances, and it hasn't been good for their relationship. In hindsight, one of the alternative plans on the table might have been a better option - tearing it all down and starting from scratch. They didn't opt for that because construction was very expensive at the time, but it might have been a cost-saving in the long-run.
With that in mind, your plan of prioritizing projects sounds like a good one. If you go with it, have as complete a list as possible, so you know when the list of projects is done - and then move on to other hobbies or goals. Make sure both people (you and the Mr.) are willing to contribute to the fixing-up (in terms of the financial cost to hire someone or the time to DIY).
posted by Terriniski at 11:37 AM on June 13, 2010
With that in mind, your plan of prioritizing projects sounds like a good one. If you go with it, have as complete a list as possible, so you know when the list of projects is done - and then move on to other hobbies or goals. Make sure both people (you and the Mr.) are willing to contribute to the fixing-up (in terms of the financial cost to hire someone or the time to DIY).
posted by Terriniski at 11:37 AM on June 13, 2010
Just chiming in to say that Mr. Cestmoi is a carpenter and basically handy all-around. He's fixed up (nicely!) both of our co-ops. Even with his skill and background, everything takes longer then expected and there is always something missing/not the right color etc that needs another run to the store and more money. So it will take longer then you expect and won't be as easy.
Also, you don't say if you are working, but believe me coming home to house projects after a full day and regular chores like groceries, needing to get dinner ready, laundry etc. is Not. Fun. Neither is having projects eat up most of your weekends.
That said, buying the worst house in the best neighborhood is advice I've heard. Doesn't sound like the right fit for you, sorry he's not more into it.
posted by cestmoi15 at 11:39 AM on June 13, 2010
Also, you don't say if you are working, but believe me coming home to house projects after a full day and regular chores like groceries, needing to get dinner ready, laundry etc. is Not. Fun. Neither is having projects eat up most of your weekends.
That said, buying the worst house in the best neighborhood is advice I've heard. Doesn't sound like the right fit for you, sorry he's not more into it.
posted by cestmoi15 at 11:39 AM on June 13, 2010
My house was not in as bad a condition as you describe when I bought it two years ago, but close. I bought it knowing that I have tremendous tolerance for living in less than perfect conditions: I've lived without electricity and running water before and while I'd rather not do it again, I know it can be done. I was completely determined to stay in the neighborhood where I'd been renting for 8 years and it was one of the very, very few in my price range. And then I have a couple of very close friends who are contractors and I had some money put by to pay for repairs. Also, I really loved the house for its downright quirky craziness (one of these days, I swear, I'm writing a coffee table book entitled Built And Rehabbed Badly By Hippies In Asheville, NC.) If any of those points had been lacking, I would not have bought it. Also, I bought it for cash. I was trying to get a mortgage first (long story) and found I could not get an FHA mortgage so if you're looking to do that, you might need to walk away now. At least here in NC, they send an inspector to look at the house and if anything is not up to code, which is to say rather a lot in my house, they will not give you a loan.
When I moved in, I found out that the home inspection and the FHA inspection were fairly useless in terms of what needed to be fixed immediately. For one thing, the water had been turned off for about seven months. It took about two or three days after it came back on for the big leaks to start to show up, so the very first thing that happened was the almost complete dismantling of an entire interior wall. That was fun. Actually, the plumbing there has been such a pain that now I've just put in a removable access panel and the hell with how it looks. The heat, a 30 year old vaguely Soviet style boiler, which was supposed to work, didn't really. I just replaced that this year. The windows still take two people and a hammer to open and close and will until I can replace them, maybe in another year or two. There's no sewer cleanout and, because my house is so old, older than I was told when I bought it, the city does not know where my drains go. Possibly directly to the river. I do not ask, but I am afraid, particularly when the Rooter King showed me the once round, now flattening, cast iron pipes buried in my backyard. I'm getting a cleanout put in as soon as I save $250. Then this winter the pipes froze because of the crazy little uninsulated plumbing closet (ARGH) which meant that we had to take out a small wall and seal up a door. And I have to find a cheap tree guy to take out a dying tree before it takes out the house. Meanwhile, stuff I wanted to do, like the floors and kitchen cabinets and the railing to the stairs, just isn't on the agenda right now.
In other words, stuff keeps coming up that you just don't expect and all that stuff costs money. Big money. I have probably spent at least $10,000 cash on repairs and replacements in the last 10 years and that's both doing a lot of work myself and paying professionals considerably less than market rate. Keep in mind that I did not replace or refinish any floors (I ripped out some carpet in one room and put some down in another) or take out any whole walls right in living space (I took out a small one in the basement and cut a big hole in the kitchen wall, though) or rehabbed the kitchen (I painted it) so I haven't done anything truly difficult or expensive or, and this is key, horrible to live with.
I found some good stuff too. The roof, except for one annoying leak on the porch, is in good shape. The hippies were amazing at insulation; my house stays warmer than any house I've ever lived in and the whole house attic fan they put in keeps it cool in the summer. Besides, they left behind a bunch of pirate themed kitsch art. My house is totally livable and I do love it. Bit by bit, we're getting to the points that need to be gotten to, and in the meantime it's fine. I would totally do it again, in a heartbeat. However, you need to be sure you really, really want to do this. It's a big commitment and you need to be not only prepared, but flexible, because stuff that you are not even thinking about will appear and swallow the money you were planning on using for that amazing kitchen range.
posted by mygothlaundry at 11:46 AM on June 13, 2010
When I moved in, I found out that the home inspection and the FHA inspection were fairly useless in terms of what needed to be fixed immediately. For one thing, the water had been turned off for about seven months. It took about two or three days after it came back on for the big leaks to start to show up, so the very first thing that happened was the almost complete dismantling of an entire interior wall. That was fun. Actually, the plumbing there has been such a pain that now I've just put in a removable access panel and the hell with how it looks. The heat, a 30 year old vaguely Soviet style boiler, which was supposed to work, didn't really. I just replaced that this year. The windows still take two people and a hammer to open and close and will until I can replace them, maybe in another year or two. There's no sewer cleanout and, because my house is so old, older than I was told when I bought it, the city does not know where my drains go. Possibly directly to the river. I do not ask, but I am afraid, particularly when the Rooter King showed me the once round, now flattening, cast iron pipes buried in my backyard. I'm getting a cleanout put in as soon as I save $250. Then this winter the pipes froze because of the crazy little uninsulated plumbing closet (ARGH) which meant that we had to take out a small wall and seal up a door. And I have to find a cheap tree guy to take out a dying tree before it takes out the house. Meanwhile, stuff I wanted to do, like the floors and kitchen cabinets and the railing to the stairs, just isn't on the agenda right now.
In other words, stuff keeps coming up that you just don't expect and all that stuff costs money. Big money. I have probably spent at least $10,000 cash on repairs and replacements in the last 10 years and that's both doing a lot of work myself and paying professionals considerably less than market rate. Keep in mind that I did not replace or refinish any floors (I ripped out some carpet in one room and put some down in another) or take out any whole walls right in living space (I took out a small one in the basement and cut a big hole in the kitchen wall, though) or rehabbed the kitchen (I painted it) so I haven't done anything truly difficult or expensive or, and this is key, horrible to live with.
I found some good stuff too. The roof, except for one annoying leak on the porch, is in good shape. The hippies were amazing at insulation; my house stays warmer than any house I've ever lived in and the whole house attic fan they put in keeps it cool in the summer. Besides, they left behind a bunch of pirate themed kitsch art. My house is totally livable and I do love it. Bit by bit, we're getting to the points that need to be gotten to, and in the meantime it's fine. I would totally do it again, in a heartbeat. However, you need to be sure you really, really want to do this. It's a big commitment and you need to be not only prepared, but flexible, because stuff that you are not even thinking about will appear and swallow the money you were planning on using for that amazing kitchen range.
posted by mygothlaundry at 11:46 AM on June 13, 2010
I would, and have, considered doing something like this but ONLY as a "Do it all in one shot" type of experience while not actually living in a place. I'd much rather live in a small apartment, with most of my stuff in storage, for six months or even a year while the place gets re-done by professionals than live in a construction site for years or decades.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 11:47 AM on June 13, 2010
posted by LastOfHisKind at 11:47 AM on June 13, 2010
Whoops, two years. Not ten years. $10K in 2 years. Maybe more.
posted by mygothlaundry at 11:48 AM on June 13, 2010
posted by mygothlaundry at 11:48 AM on June 13, 2010
Sort of arguing against the mainstream of advice here.
I'm currently in my fifth house. I *knew* when I bought the latest that it would be a pain, and I didn't (still don't) have the money to fix it up properly.
The great thing about my house (other than the price) is that it has "good bones". Most of the important (and super-expensive) parts to fix are great, solid, and need nothing. The house is a big fixer-upper, but *what needs to be fixed* is very reasonable, and can (mostly) wait until I have money.
I think that my understanding of "good bones" can only be acquired through experience, unfortunately.
In particular, this house is *not* a first-timers-house. I would have been shocked at the cost for repairs (and even upkeep) if this was my first. I am occasionally dismayed even though I went into it with open eyes.
posted by Invoke at 11:53 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm currently in my fifth house. I *knew* when I bought the latest that it would be a pain, and I didn't (still don't) have the money to fix it up properly.
The great thing about my house (other than the price) is that it has "good bones". Most of the important (and super-expensive) parts to fix are great, solid, and need nothing. The house is a big fixer-upper, but *what needs to be fixed* is very reasonable, and can (mostly) wait until I have money.
I think that my understanding of "good bones" can only be acquired through experience, unfortunately.
In particular, this house is *not* a first-timers-house. I would have been shocked at the cost for repairs (and even upkeep) if this was my first. I am occasionally dismayed even though I went into it with open eyes.
posted by Invoke at 11:53 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
The other thing you want to consider with home renovations is the amount of time it sucks out of your life.
Do you really want to be spending all your free time working on the house? Do you sit around bored right now? 'Cuz if you have any hobbies that you enjoy you can pretty much forget about them. Evenings will be spent on small projects, weekends will be spent on big projects, vacations will be spent on enormous ones.
Burnout comes quickly and you will just want to get away from it all, but you can't afford to because you just found yet another problem that has to be fixed.
posted by TooFewShoes at 11:57 AM on June 13, 2010
Do you really want to be spending all your free time working on the house? Do you sit around bored right now? 'Cuz if you have any hobbies that you enjoy you can pretty much forget about them. Evenings will be spent on small projects, weekends will be spent on big projects, vacations will be spent on enormous ones.
Burnout comes quickly and you will just want to get away from it all, but you can't afford to because you just found yet another problem that has to be fixed.
posted by TooFewShoes at 11:57 AM on June 13, 2010
FWIW we bought a house that was very old and had significant issues - dirt floors, no indoor heating, no insulation, rising damp, all kinds of headaches.
The Good: We did major structural work before we moved in. We tore down walls, put in steel, and reworked the ground floor footprint. We re-wired while the walls were down. We put in all the light fittings and electrical points we will ever need. Structurally, we have the box that we want to live in.
The Bad: We ran out of money for second finish and have not done as much of the finish work as we thought we would ourselves. Our front hall remains un plastered. Our baseboards are not painted. Some closets lack hardware. Things low down on the list, like decking the back, are a long way off and that's a little sad inducing.
Tip: Having completed rooms - in our case, a fully finished kitchen and bathroom - makes a huge mental difference to me. I can stand in them and know that this is the standard to which the rest of the house will eventually rise and that is happy inducing.
Overall, I have no regrets. Yes things are largely imperfect but I can see how we're going to get there and the house is entirely liveable as is. We plan to be here for a long, long time and are in no rush.
Which is good, since we have no money either!
posted by DarlingBri at 12:43 PM on June 13, 2010
The Good: We did major structural work before we moved in. We tore down walls, put in steel, and reworked the ground floor footprint. We re-wired while the walls were down. We put in all the light fittings and electrical points we will ever need. Structurally, we have the box that we want to live in.
The Bad: We ran out of money for second finish and have not done as much of the finish work as we thought we would ourselves. Our front hall remains un plastered. Our baseboards are not painted. Some closets lack hardware. Things low down on the list, like decking the back, are a long way off and that's a little sad inducing.
Tip: Having completed rooms - in our case, a fully finished kitchen and bathroom - makes a huge mental difference to me. I can stand in them and know that this is the standard to which the rest of the house will eventually rise and that is happy inducing.
Overall, I have no regrets. Yes things are largely imperfect but I can see how we're going to get there and the house is entirely liveable as is. We plan to be here for a long, long time and are in no rush.
Which is good, since we have no money either!
posted by DarlingBri at 12:43 PM on June 13, 2010
My untrained friend bought a house that needed a new roof, all new electrical, exterior painting, and earthquake bolting and shear plywood. She paid for the earthquake work, actually found a way to trade for the roof work (with the semi-casual business arrangement that that entails), and got an electrician relative to teach her how to do the electrical and spend a weekend or two doing it.
She spent three years of weekends and evenings and 7-8:30 AMs meeting with contractors and doing work. Three members of her family spent most their weekends helping as well. She was haggard and pre-occupied the entire time. She made a million trips to the Berkeley tool lending library. She and her family got pretty sick of one another! She was always having to schedule times for turning off the electrical with her housemate. Little things still hang over her head, e.g., no overhead lights hooked up yet. But otherwise, life is good, and she got a great house in a great neighborhood for less than her neighbors spent. YMMV.
I wouldn't do it her way and give up three years of leisure time (it sounds like no big deal in theory, but picture it: three. years). But I bet she would do it again because she likes being at home (ie, it wasn't pulling her away from her dream weekend hanggliding hobby), and because she wanted to learn building skills.
I think the worst was the worrying. To give one example, they didn't finish the roof before the first fall rain, so they had to tack down tarps over the whole thing, and for those two weeks of raininess before another sunny break, she woke up five times a night thinking she was hearing water dripping behind the drywall.
posted by salvia at 1:12 PM on June 13, 2010
She spent three years of weekends and evenings and 7-8:30 AMs meeting with contractors and doing work. Three members of her family spent most their weekends helping as well. She was haggard and pre-occupied the entire time. She made a million trips to the Berkeley tool lending library. She and her family got pretty sick of one another! She was always having to schedule times for turning off the electrical with her housemate. Little things still hang over her head, e.g., no overhead lights hooked up yet. But otherwise, life is good, and she got a great house in a great neighborhood for less than her neighbors spent. YMMV.
I wouldn't do it her way and give up three years of leisure time (it sounds like no big deal in theory, but picture it: three. years). But I bet she would do it again because she likes being at home (ie, it wasn't pulling her away from her dream weekend hanggliding hobby), and because she wanted to learn building skills.
I think the worst was the worrying. To give one example, they didn't finish the roof before the first fall rain, so they had to tack down tarps over the whole thing, and for those two weeks of raininess before another sunny break, she woke up five times a night thinking she was hearing water dripping behind the drywall.
posted by salvia at 1:12 PM on June 13, 2010
We bought our 60 year old house a couple of years ago knowing quite a bit about it we thought. Even people who appeared to take care of the place systematically spend 15 years cutting corners and doing things in a half assed manner that we're uncovering and fixing all the time. The state of the house was very livable when we first moved in but needed rewiring, entirely renovated bathrooms, repainting of the entire place and a couple of walls knocked down. We knew we would be doing this over a long time so we took care of the walls and painting first. While the house was empty we washed and primed the walls/ceilings/etc. We then repainted the entire place. About 2 years ago we brought in an electrician and had the whole house rewired (we should have done this FIRST, as we're now going around patching holes in the walls and making it looks like we didn't cut at least 2 holes in every wall of the house, this year we're replacing the bathrooms and knocking down walls/expanding closets.
I'm doing nearly all the work except the electrical myself on weekends and after work, it's a seemingly unending series of projects that will take 3-5x as long as you expect it will and will cost 20-50% more than you expect it will because while you're doing one thing, you'll find several other things you should just take care of in parallel while you have walls down or a contractor on site.
Our electrical job grew from replace all the outlets and rewire in place to add new outlets, install lighting and outlets in the crawlspace, install lighting and outlets in the attic, etc. Our bathroom is the same way...what was a simple rip down to subfloor turned in to reframing/rebuilding 1/3rd of the house and replacing 1/3 of the plumbing and wastelines in the place.
The problem with house that need work aren't the things you know about it's what you uncover - major systems - electrical, plumbing, ventilation, structure, drainage.
I would recommend doing all major work that will impact the entirety of the house before you move in: That means the electrical, the plumbing, structure issues that will impact the walls. The most important thing on your list is the roof. A bad roof is a recipe for house and possession destruction.
Before you get in to this make sure you budget a couple k for in depth inspections. Have every major system in the house inspected by an expert - waste, plumbing, electrical, structure, drainage, etc. The money you spend here will pay off as you prioritize things.
Handy people who are unafraid to ask for help and who are unafraid of being educated can do this. It's incredibly rewarding, incredibly frustrating and can save you a TON of money...but it _will_ consume your life. I say this as a dude who spent 8 hours working on his house today with a 6 months pregnant wife, skipping all the world cup games and still have another couple of house of general house maintenance stuff to do today beyond all the construction.
posted by iamabot at 1:56 PM on June 13, 2010
I'm doing nearly all the work except the electrical myself on weekends and after work, it's a seemingly unending series of projects that will take 3-5x as long as you expect it will and will cost 20-50% more than you expect it will because while you're doing one thing, you'll find several other things you should just take care of in parallel while you have walls down or a contractor on site.
Our electrical job grew from replace all the outlets and rewire in place to add new outlets, install lighting and outlets in the crawlspace, install lighting and outlets in the attic, etc. Our bathroom is the same way...what was a simple rip down to subfloor turned in to reframing/rebuilding 1/3rd of the house and replacing 1/3 of the plumbing and wastelines in the place.
The problem with house that need work aren't the things you know about it's what you uncover - major systems - electrical, plumbing, ventilation, structure, drainage.
I would recommend doing all major work that will impact the entirety of the house before you move in: That means the electrical, the plumbing, structure issues that will impact the walls. The most important thing on your list is the roof. A bad roof is a recipe for house and possession destruction.
Before you get in to this make sure you budget a couple k for in depth inspections. Have every major system in the house inspected by an expert - waste, plumbing, electrical, structure, drainage, etc. The money you spend here will pay off as you prioritize things.
Handy people who are unafraid to ask for help and who are unafraid of being educated can do this. It's incredibly rewarding, incredibly frustrating and can save you a TON of money...but it _will_ consume your life. I say this as a dude who spent 8 hours working on his house today with a 6 months pregnant wife, skipping all the world cup games and still have another couple of house of general house maintenance stuff to do today beyond all the construction.
posted by iamabot at 1:56 PM on June 13, 2010
I hate to mention it, but how strong is your marriage? Seriously. You can do it. But there will be stress. Lots of stress. More than a brand new baby level of stress. If you're the kind of couple that fights under stress, imagine money stress coupled with having to live in the corner of your house that feels like bombed out Sarajevo plus every contractor is 3 months late. Living in half a house under constant construction with work and contractors every minute didn't cause my divorce, but it certainly was the bale of straw that broke the camel's back.
I'm closing escrow on my third house (fingers crossed) and it's taken me more than 5 years to be willing to buy a place that has any major repair needs. And even then, I'm buying something livable and taking it slooooooowly.
This isn't a "OMFG don't do it" or "OMFG do it! It's awesome!" but more of a "make sure you're completely aligned as a couple on what's a priority, how poor you're willing to live to put money into it, how much inconvenience is tolerable and how much of a life do you want to have" because even if you're up for all of it, if he isn't, life will suck.
posted by Gucky at 2:05 PM on June 13, 2010
I'm closing escrow on my third house (fingers crossed) and it's taken me more than 5 years to be willing to buy a place that has any major repair needs. And even then, I'm buying something livable and taking it slooooooowly.
This isn't a "OMFG don't do it" or "OMFG do it! It's awesome!" but more of a "make sure you're completely aligned as a couple on what's a priority, how poor you're willing to live to put money into it, how much inconvenience is tolerable and how much of a life do you want to have" because even if you're up for all of it, if he isn't, life will suck.
posted by Gucky at 2:05 PM on June 13, 2010
Listen to Gucky. My husband and I did this, twice even, but we're a remarkably good team and we enjoy this sort of stuff. If one of you is not willing to dive in and do it, or at least able to keep equilibrium while all is chaos around you (as it will be for a long, long time), then don't do it.
posted by Sublimity at 2:14 PM on June 13, 2010
posted by Sublimity at 2:14 PM on June 13, 2010
Stop thinking romance. Think number$$$. If you can get the house at a steal, then you can justify the hours you'll need to put in, and stay motivated by reminding yourselves you're building real equity. Put in an astonishingly lowball offer; maybe they'll accept it. Get it inspected even if you think you know what you're doing.
posted by theora55 at 2:18 PM on June 13, 2010
posted by theora55 at 2:18 PM on June 13, 2010
I can't add much, except to say that about 15 years ago a friend who specialized in installing and repairing slate roofs told me how insanely expensive they were; like levels of magnitude more expensive than virtually any other kind of roof.
At the time, he quoted me a dollar amount per square (10x10 foot area) and my jaw just dropped. I wish I could remember the number but I can't.
I'd say if you do nothing else prior to purchase, see if you can get an estimate on whipping that roof into shape if you want to stay with slate.
posted by imjustsaying at 2:19 PM on June 13, 2010
At the time, he quoted me a dollar amount per square (10x10 foot area) and my jaw just dropped. I wish I could remember the number but I can't.
I'd say if you do nothing else prior to purchase, see if you can get an estimate on whipping that roof into shape if you want to stay with slate.
posted by imjustsaying at 2:19 PM on June 13, 2010
Hey, we bought a house that we thought wouldn't need any work and have done a ton of work: roof, chimney, windows, deck, HVAC, toilets, painting, floors, etc etc etc because of random crap that happened/wasn't done right the first time.
Which is to say, at least you'd know going in what you were getting into. But also, there will be more than you think, possibly.
posted by dpx.mfx at 5:04 PM on June 13, 2010
Which is to say, at least you'd know going in what you were getting into. But also, there will be more than you think, possibly.
posted by dpx.mfx at 5:04 PM on June 13, 2010
Sounds like you already decided against it but for what it's worth...
You asked for first person accounts--try Houseblogs.net, which aggregates over 950 individual blogs by people doing renovations. Use the search on the site to find people who have tackled anything you can think of.
Our own blog is a seven year account of restoring a bungalow in Chicago. Our project has been tough but the pride once you're on the other side of the abyss is pretty fantastic. That said--every caution above is true.
(Full disclosure: I run Houseblogs.net and my wife is jeanmari here on MeFi. She does most of the writing on our own blog.)
posted by DIYer at 5:14 PM on June 13, 2010
You asked for first person accounts--try Houseblogs.net, which aggregates over 950 individual blogs by people doing renovations. Use the search on the site to find people who have tackled anything you can think of.
Our own blog is a seven year account of restoring a bungalow in Chicago. Our project has been tough but the pride once you're on the other side of the abyss is pretty fantastic. That said--every caution above is true.
(Full disclosure: I run Houseblogs.net and my wife is jeanmari here on MeFi. She does most of the writing on our own blog.)
posted by DIYer at 5:14 PM on June 13, 2010
In my experience of 21 years of marriage, nothing has been a greater strain than extensive DIY home renovations, and we are both really good at it and work well as a team. In fact just thinking about it kind of shuts me down, so I can't really say anything more. Add my vote to the Nays.
posted by HotToddy at 5:48 PM on June 13, 2010
posted by HotToddy at 5:48 PM on June 13, 2010
For a day-by-day perspective on fixing-upping a house, check out The House, a mefite's tale of buying a huge, run down house in Indianapolis for $8000 sight unseen, and moving his family into the carriage house in the backyard while renovating the main house. He bought the house in March 2009, and just recently, in May of this year, managed to set up an office in the main house.
So there's that.
posted by malapropist at 7:13 PM on June 13, 2010
So there's that.
posted by malapropist at 7:13 PM on June 13, 2010
Here's my big insight after nine years of fixing the house I live in (and I only have a little Cape with no fancy-schmancy slate roof!): P.O. can stand for Pissed Off, Previous Owners, or both at the same time.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:15 AM on June 14, 2010
posted by wenestvedt at 10:15 AM on June 14, 2010
Some thoughts:
170 year old house. Have completely remodelled and partially rebuilt the kitchen, inc major steelwork, wall removal and glass roof and done some major work to the stairs/ reconfiguring the rear.
All in all it cost twice what we originally expected (£70k, not £35k, ex decoration and we did it in two stages in the end). The biggest single problem was discovering no foundations at the back (no big deal really) and the entire rear extension was built on mush (big deal). This necessitated a steel box rather than just an RSJ.
Unless it's a big house with sealable areas, don't think about living there while the work is done if it's structural - the dust, esp from lime mortar is awful and ruins your life.
We have a slate roof. Curiously it has never been a problem and slating is not so expensive here, probably because it's so prevalent in London.
I wouldn't take the chimney down unless you have to. In old brick walls, they often act as spines strengthening the masonry; also fireplaces look nice. Although when we re-opened a fireplace, a chimney breast almost collapsed on us.
Be realistic about perfect finishes (like none of your walls will be straight) and keep as much old stuff as you can within reason. If you're repairing woodwork, do it properly with wood and carpenters, not nasty-ass MDF.
Do it before you have kids. This slows you up 90%.
posted by rhymer at 2:31 PM on June 14, 2010
170 year old house. Have completely remodelled and partially rebuilt the kitchen, inc major steelwork, wall removal and glass roof and done some major work to the stairs/ reconfiguring the rear.
All in all it cost twice what we originally expected (£70k, not £35k, ex decoration and we did it in two stages in the end). The biggest single problem was discovering no foundations at the back (no big deal really) and the entire rear extension was built on mush (big deal). This necessitated a steel box rather than just an RSJ.
Unless it's a big house with sealable areas, don't think about living there while the work is done if it's structural - the dust, esp from lime mortar is awful and ruins your life.
We have a slate roof. Curiously it has never been a problem and slating is not so expensive here, probably because it's so prevalent in London.
I wouldn't take the chimney down unless you have to. In old brick walls, they often act as spines strengthening the masonry; also fireplaces look nice. Although when we re-opened a fireplace, a chimney breast almost collapsed on us.
Be realistic about perfect finishes (like none of your walls will be straight) and keep as much old stuff as you can within reason. If you're repairing woodwork, do it properly with wood and carpenters, not nasty-ass MDF.
Do it before you have kids. This slows you up 90%.
posted by rhymer at 2:31 PM on June 14, 2010
When we were looking to buy a house a while ago, we looked and looked. It took almost a year. Along the way we made offers (rejected, thank goodness) on some fixer-uppers that were in better shape than yours. I was entertaining a fantasy of the craftsy good times we would have fixing the house up, and what a savvy home-buyer I was being by getting the cheapo house and then making it shine, blah blah blah. I was reading those damn home-renovation blogs, with the inspiring photos and the cheerful writing, and what an adventure it would be!
In the end we bought a house that needed virtually no work, just a few small projects and a couple things we'll need to hire someone to do.
Our friends who bought a fixer-upper at the same time have spent every weekend, and their nights when they come home from work, working on their house. When we see them they're tired and tense and bicker. Their house is alternately full of bad smells and toxic mystery dusts, they haven't had a working stove/oven all year, on and on.
We have been able to move in here and begin some of the small projects without it disrupting the whole rest of our lives -- and even then, most of the projects we've put off or just given up on because it's a pain. The stuff we've tried to pay other people for has been a hassle and more expensive than we expected (hello slate roof!). We have found other things wrong that we didn't expect.
I *love* our house, it's great. Everyone who comes over oohs and aahs about it. It is really a best-case scenario of an old house for a first-time buyer. Still - it took us about a year to find it, and it has a lot more repairs that need doing than a casual observer notices.
Truisms:
1. There are always more repairs than you think, and they're more expensive and take longer than you expect.
2. The disruption and life-takeover of renovations is always more than you expect, and it's the rare couple who can go through that without real fighting and tension.
3. There is a better house around the corner; wait for it.
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:55 PM on June 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
In the end we bought a house that needed virtually no work, just a few small projects and a couple things we'll need to hire someone to do.
Our friends who bought a fixer-upper at the same time have spent every weekend, and their nights when they come home from work, working on their house. When we see them they're tired and tense and bicker. Their house is alternately full of bad smells and toxic mystery dusts, they haven't had a working stove/oven all year, on and on.
We have been able to move in here and begin some of the small projects without it disrupting the whole rest of our lives -- and even then, most of the projects we've put off or just given up on because it's a pain. The stuff we've tried to pay other people for has been a hassle and more expensive than we expected (hello slate roof!). We have found other things wrong that we didn't expect.
I *love* our house, it's great. Everyone who comes over oohs and aahs about it. It is really a best-case scenario of an old house for a first-time buyer. Still - it took us about a year to find it, and it has a lot more repairs that need doing than a casual observer notices.
Truisms:
1. There are always more repairs than you think, and they're more expensive and take longer than you expect.
2. The disruption and life-takeover of renovations is always more than you expect, and it's the rare couple who can go through that without real fighting and tension.
3. There is a better house around the corner; wait for it.
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:55 PM on June 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Mr. Llama's kind of horrified at the amount of work and money we're talking about.
This right here should be enough for you to turn away from this house and find a more reasonable one. The amount of work and money is likely going to be much, much worse than you think.
posted by puritycontrol at 11:02 AM on June 13, 2010 [8 favorites]