Personal Experience with HGC?
June 10, 2010 8:18 AM Subscribe
Personal experience with the HCG regimen as it related to endocrine systems? I went to a presentation last night expecting a slick pitch and walked away somewhat impressed. Also, do many insurance plans cover this?
I went in curious about the weight loss program (my aunt's lost 70 pounds on this diet) and left with the impression I just needed my hormones corrected (another service they offer). The presenter, a nurse practitioner with a psychiatric background, got my attention when she said thyroid patients often do better with Armour than Synthroid. (I've been hypothyroid since "treatment" of Grave's disease by radioactive iodine 24 years ago.) I'd previously asked my PA about Armour and he said "it is not really standardized" and it could really destabilize me, but he doesn't care that I keep gaining weight even though my levels are in the normal range. I believe from what I read that "normal" levels aren't always effective. The nurse presenter also attributed mood swings to unbalanced hormones. If I could get my thyroid levels correct as well as get off the wretched Lithium (which my own doctor called "an automatic 25 pounds"), the weight would come right off without any 500-calorie-a-day diet.
Don't misunderstand. I am not looking for a quick fix. I know I have to work as hard as anyone to lose weight with exercise and sensible eating. I am just tired of shoveling shit against the tide with both the thyroid and the Lithium.
I went in curious about the weight loss program (my aunt's lost 70 pounds on this diet) and left with the impression I just needed my hormones corrected (another service they offer). The presenter, a nurse practitioner with a psychiatric background, got my attention when she said thyroid patients often do better with Armour than Synthroid. (I've been hypothyroid since "treatment" of Grave's disease by radioactive iodine 24 years ago.) I'd previously asked my PA about Armour and he said "it is not really standardized" and it could really destabilize me, but he doesn't care that I keep gaining weight even though my levels are in the normal range. I believe from what I read that "normal" levels aren't always effective. The nurse presenter also attributed mood swings to unbalanced hormones. If I could get my thyroid levels correct as well as get off the wretched Lithium (which my own doctor called "an automatic 25 pounds"), the weight would come right off without any 500-calorie-a-day diet.
Don't misunderstand. I am not looking for a quick fix. I know I have to work as hard as anyone to lose weight with exercise and sensible eating. I am just tired of shoveling shit against the tide with both the thyroid and the Lithium.
I do not have thyroid issues but I have been on the protocol for a little over a month and have lost over 20 pounds. I read 2 forums pretty regularly to hear others experiences and questions. I have read several that take the thyroid meds as well as the HCG.
Here are the forum links, you can decide if you want to do some further searches there.
1 2
posted by meeshell at 9:22 AM on June 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Here are the forum links, you can decide if you want to do some further searches there.
1 2
posted by meeshell at 9:22 AM on June 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Ery: Thank you for the recommendations. I take Cytomel as well, 5 mcg bid (but not really). My PA originally (grudgingly) prescribed for me after I showed him what I'd found out. One tablet a day and I feel a bit better. Two and I start to get heart flutters/palpitations. Also, I am determined to try Armour, even if it means getting a different doctor. Meeshell: I will check the links, thank you.
posted by Prairie at 10:02 AM on June 10, 2010
posted by Prairie at 10:02 AM on June 10, 2010
Ery: Thank you for the recommendations. I take Cytomel as well, 5 mcg bid (but not really). My PA originally (grudgingly) prescribed for me after I showed him what I'd found out. One tablet a day and I feel a bit better. Two and I start to get heart flutters/palpitations. Also, I am determined to try Armour, even if it means getting a different doctor. Meeshell: I will check the links, thank you.
I could be wrong, but I think Armour Thyroid provides approximately a fixed ratio of 4.2 mcg of T4 per 1 mcg of T3. Do you believe that dessicated, purified pig T3 and T4 provide an advantage over a similar synthetic combination of the two hormones? If not, why the determination to try this? I only ask because at least conceptually if you believe that there is no difference between idental molecules, taking the two hormones independently (Cytomel + Synthroid) would give you more flexibility in adjusting the dosage of either and more control over the ratio of the two.
Also, have you tried or discussed alternatives to Lithium to stabilize your mood? You probably know this already, but Lithium can itself alter the milieu of thyroid hormones, and options like Depakote, Lamictal, or Tegretol may not lead to as much of an issue with weight though YMMV. I would caution you against getting the impression that correcting any "hormone imbalance" is going to be an adequate substitute for symptoms severe enough to require Lithium (i.e. bipolar disorder). I'm not saying for example that getting the best thyroid supplementation that meets your particular needs isn't a good idea, but if you start to let your frustration bias you towards thinking that hormone therapy is a panacea, it may really end up clouding your better judgment and get in the way of you getting the best care.
Just brainstorming.
posted by drpynchon at 11:58 AM on June 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
I could be wrong, but I think Armour Thyroid provides approximately a fixed ratio of 4.2 mcg of T4 per 1 mcg of T3. Do you believe that dessicated, purified pig T3 and T4 provide an advantage over a similar synthetic combination of the two hormones? If not, why the determination to try this? I only ask because at least conceptually if you believe that there is no difference between idental molecules, taking the two hormones independently (Cytomel + Synthroid) would give you more flexibility in adjusting the dosage of either and more control over the ratio of the two.
Also, have you tried or discussed alternatives to Lithium to stabilize your mood? You probably know this already, but Lithium can itself alter the milieu of thyroid hormones, and options like Depakote, Lamictal, or Tegretol may not lead to as much of an issue with weight though YMMV. I would caution you against getting the impression that correcting any "hormone imbalance" is going to be an adequate substitute for symptoms severe enough to require Lithium (i.e. bipolar disorder). I'm not saying for example that getting the best thyroid supplementation that meets your particular needs isn't a good idea, but if you start to let your frustration bias you towards thinking that hormone therapy is a panacea, it may really end up clouding your better judgment and get in the way of you getting the best care.
Just brainstorming.
posted by drpynchon at 11:58 AM on June 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh also, to balance what meeshell said, consider the best scientific review of the published evidence on HCG to date here. I believe few insurance plans cover it -- which by the way, one could argue is a red flag regarding the amount of financial benefit directly to providers of this therapy as they are probably billing patients directly, and perhaps significantly.
Full disclosure: I don't have personal experience with HCG therapy, but I'm biased against therapies that don't have sufficient published, peer-reviewed evidence, while at the same time being pushed by dubious infomercial tycoons like Kevin Trudeau. This would again be a red flag for me, personally.
posted by drpynchon at 12:41 PM on June 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Full disclosure: I don't have personal experience with HCG therapy, but I'm biased against therapies that don't have sufficient published, peer-reviewed evidence, while at the same time being pushed by dubious infomercial tycoons like Kevin Trudeau. This would again be a red flag for me, personally.
posted by drpynchon at 12:41 PM on June 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: drpynchon: Don't I know it! Tegertol made me sleep 20 hours a day, Depkote made my hair fall out, and I developed erythema multiforme on Lamictal. (If you think there's nothing worse than weight gain, google that one.) The nurse mentioned these hormones helping with mood swings, I guess I wasn't aware normies got mood swings as well.
As far as the T3-T4, I've just heard people say they felt so much better on the Armour. I cannot explain the chemistry--but I'm up for a change. Truly appreciate your input.
posted by Prairie at 7:32 PM on June 10, 2010
As far as the T3-T4, I've just heard people say they felt so much better on the Armour. I cannot explain the chemistry--but I'm up for a change. Truly appreciate your input.
posted by Prairie at 7:32 PM on June 10, 2010
Response by poster: stoneweaver: A thyroid-friendly diet is news to me. As is the dearth of Armour. Many thanks.
posted by Prairie at 7:52 AM on June 11, 2010
posted by Prairie at 7:52 AM on June 11, 2010
Best answer: Not sure how much a thyroid-friendly diet will do for someone who does not have a thyroid. Raw cruciferous vegetables may reduce the amount of hormone the thyroid gland produces, but that only matters if you have a thyroid. Soy might interfere with the absorption of the pills, though. A lot of foods interfere with the absorption of T4, but food seems to be much less of a problem for T3 absorption.
That's what I disliked most about Armour: it's best to spread the amount of T3 you take among at least two doses per day, so you don't overload your system with too much T3 at once and leach too much calcium out of your bones, but it's impractical to avoid eating for several hours before and one hour after taking Armour. What I eat for lunch varies too much from day to day for me to just take extra in order to allow for the amount I don't absorb due to eating certain foods. It's easier to take all the T4 before breakfast, and then spread the T3 throughout the day, in two or three doses.
You can't just add Cytomel to your old Synthroid dosage and expect it to work out fine. If you do, you end up overdosing on thyroid hormone. For every 5 mcg tablet of Cytomel you add, you have to reduce your Synthroid (or other brand of thyroxine) by approximately 20 mcg. Since Synthroid is slower-acting than Cytomel, the switching-over period can be a little unpleasant, though worthwhile in the end.
If two pills of Cytomel per day is too much for you, perhaps one and a half would suit you better. I went for a long time taking one and a half Cytomels per day. I had troubles getting the pills to divide perfectly, so my preferred method was to bite one pill in half and put the second half in my pillbox to take the next day. That way, any slight deviation in dosage would average out. This is not an approved method.
Armour is good for people who like a T4:T3 ratio of 4:1, if they are not sensitive to some ill effect of T1 and T2 (as I suspect I might be—something about the formation of more of a different thyroid hormone which is called reverse T3; I think it has the iodine atoms in a different configuration). I think more people like a ratio closer to 10:1. Taking too much T3, relative to T4, makes me uncomfortably aware of up-and-down swings in thyroid levels throughout the day. I used to take a combination of Armour plus Levoxyl, to get the correct ratio. It was better than Levoxyl alone, but, for me, not as good as taking the right ratio of Cytomel to Levoxyl.
posted by Ery at 10:02 AM on June 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
That's what I disliked most about Armour: it's best to spread the amount of T3 you take among at least two doses per day, so you don't overload your system with too much T3 at once and leach too much calcium out of your bones, but it's impractical to avoid eating for several hours before and one hour after taking Armour. What I eat for lunch varies too much from day to day for me to just take extra in order to allow for the amount I don't absorb due to eating certain foods. It's easier to take all the T4 before breakfast, and then spread the T3 throughout the day, in two or three doses.
You can't just add Cytomel to your old Synthroid dosage and expect it to work out fine. If you do, you end up overdosing on thyroid hormone. For every 5 mcg tablet of Cytomel you add, you have to reduce your Synthroid (or other brand of thyroxine) by approximately 20 mcg. Since Synthroid is slower-acting than Cytomel, the switching-over period can be a little unpleasant, though worthwhile in the end.
If two pills of Cytomel per day is too much for you, perhaps one and a half would suit you better. I went for a long time taking one and a half Cytomels per day. I had troubles getting the pills to divide perfectly, so my preferred method was to bite one pill in half and put the second half in my pillbox to take the next day. That way, any slight deviation in dosage would average out. This is not an approved method.
Armour is good for people who like a T4:T3 ratio of 4:1, if they are not sensitive to some ill effect of T1 and T2 (as I suspect I might be—something about the formation of more of a different thyroid hormone which is called reverse T3; I think it has the iodine atoms in a different configuration). I think more people like a ratio closer to 10:1. Taking too much T3, relative to T4, makes me uncomfortably aware of up-and-down swings in thyroid levels throughout the day. I used to take a combination of Armour plus Levoxyl, to get the correct ratio. It was better than Levoxyl alone, but, for me, not as good as taking the right ratio of Cytomel to Levoxyl.
posted by Ery at 10:02 AM on June 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
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I'm one of the people who can't be well when taking thyroxine alone. (Synthroid is a brand of thyroxine, also known as T4, for the four iodine atoms on it.) I've taken Armour, and it is a lot better for me than thyroxine alone, but I feel best on a combination of Levoxyl (another brand of thyroxine) plus Cytomel, which is a synthetic form of the related hormone liothyronine, also known as T3 for the three iodine atoms on it. I personally need a different ratio of T4:T3 than is contained in Armour thyroid. TSH blood tests are not very useful for guiding my treatment; instead, my endocrinologist aims for certain levels of free T3 and free T4 on my blood tests. For me, those values need to be near the middle of the "normal" range; for some people, it needs to be in the upper quadrant of the normal range.
Some people do just fine on thyroxine alone. Their tissues convert T4 to T3 very efficiently. Others cannot get by without adding T3 to their T4. For them, taking too much T4 and not enough T3 results in continued muscle pain, fatigue, weight gain, and other symptoms of hypothyroidism. There are plenty of people who do better on Armour thyroid. You and your doctor will not know which is true for you, unless you try it.
It's possible that you don't need T3 at all, but are not taking quite enough T4. That would cause similar symptoms. It's impossible to tell from here. I think it's indisputable that you need another doctor, though. Some doctors aim for a TSH value that is high than a particular patient needs. It's an awful thing, a hellish experience, to have one's thyroid function being kept too low by a number-worshipping doctor.
The general advice for people in your situation, if your endocrinologist refuses to consider trying Armour or Cytomel on you, is to switch to another endocrinologist, or, if you are not being treated by an endocrinologist, to get one. The simplest way for you to find a doctor who will treat your hypothyroidism the way you need it to be treated might be to go with the group whose HCG pitch you went to see, though.
A book I recommend to explain the details of the effects of T4 treatment versus T3 treatment is Ridha Arem's The Thyroid Solution. Our local public library has it, and used copies are also available inexpensively online.
posted by Ery at 8:48 AM on June 10, 2010 [2 favorites]