Is this emotional abuse, narcissistic personality or both?
June 3, 2010 1:12 PM Subscribe
What is emotional abuse?
A friend of mine is in a bad marriage but she can't decide if it's emotional abuse, narcissm, or just plain messed up. She will be seeking therapy soon to help her start to gain strength in making a decision to leave but right now, she's worn out, second guessing her part in things, etc.
The relationship has always had it's ups and downs and before her child came a year ago, she could just ignore his tirades/arguments but now she's thinking 'you know, this isn't right for anyone' and wants out.
Some examples are when they have arguments, he 100% blames her, even if he initially did something wrong. There is zero accountability on his part. Usually his comment is "well you make me act this way". And acting that way is screaming at her, blaming her, threatening to take the child away from her if she divorces him. She tells him to stop arguing in front of their 1.5 year old and he said "too bad. You're making me." or "Tough, the kid can deal wtih 30 seconds. YOU will hear me."
He's big on making his point, making her listen/hear it. If she tries to leave because it gets too much (this was before the child) he took her keys. If she moved to another room to have the 3+ hour argument stop, he follows her through the house lecturing her. She begs for him to shut up and just stop, he says no he has things to say.
She (and I) are baffled by this behavior she told him outright that him yelling at her in front of their child and him saying "tough" shows his selfishness and he can't even admit that was wrong.
Then he'll send her emails saying how much he loves her, etc. and "if only you would show me you love me then I won't act the way I do." As if she has some magic powers of influence. She knows everyone is accountable for their own actions--well except him it seems. And she has withdrawn over the past 6 years because of his actions. There are more crazy tales of his behavior all the way back to the day before her wedding when she refused to get in a car with a drunk driver, switched cars with a friend, it made him look bad (according to him) and she wound up getting lectured on her behavior (ie. how it made him look).
He has a history of punching a hold in the door, calling her every name in the book when he was drunk, threatening her with a photo of him holding a shotgun and sending it to her and some guy when he thought they cheated (she never did).
She grew up in a very abusive household and doesn't want it for her son. The only time this guy ever touched her was when she finally went to bed after an all day fight and ignored him because she didn't want anymore fighting around the infant (at the time). He came into the room, she ignored him pretending she was sleeping, he grabbed her arm hard telilng her to "look at her" and she ignored him. The next day she had a clear sign that he grabbed her arm hard --- a thumbprint bruise. She never once filed/called the police out of embarassment/fear of the cops showing up at the door.
She says she's no prize either when the fighting got bad. Out of button pushing defensiveness she has swore at him, yelled, and only once hit him when he was so violently drunk and was calling her c**t, b**ch, etc that she snapped thinking that a slap would wake him up on how he acted. It didn't. He went more violent, punched the hole in the door right next to her head and put his finger to her check and pushed her yelling at her for slapping him.
I know this sounds horrible and she loves her child to death. But she is afraid of a brutal custody battle/trial--which he has threatened. She wants to agreeably mediate in the best interest of the child. He, however, wants full/primary custody. Only one lawyer told her that he "could" win only because she works a normal job/hours while he stays home to work while watching the child 3 days a week. But honestly, hour per hour---their time matches, it's just not as consecutive as hers. She is the stable income, benefit provider for the family. He is far from stable income, no benefits, makes far less, and smokes weed. She knows this seems odd for him to "win" in a divorce but she's afraid nonetheless. That child is her whole life and she wants the best outcome for him after a divorce. If he's threatening her now and is dumb with safety, considerations with the child (he does love the child though), she worries about when it's visitation time---what IS going on.
Shes' trying to understand this very volitile, strange, wrong, and abusive marriage but can't put a finger on what exactly is the problem---narcissm, emotional abuse, etc. She's making plans to be stronger, get a clear direction and action plan to leave but again, she is afraid of all the ramifications knowing that if he's this "bizarre" abusive during the marriage, how will he be when he's served and during the process? This poor kid will be a pawn.
She's worn out, tired, drained, and at times says "it feels like he's won. He's beaten me 100% to where I don't even have self confidence in being around company anymore. All I get are lectures about how I act/am."
So she's been trying to pinpoint what the deal is with him and some have said he's emotionally abusive but definitions on the internet are more towards the extreme of calling names like "stupid", etc. And he doens't do that. He just does the above and constantly lectures her to the point of nauseum on her 'behavior' and "well you start fights, dont' you see that?" Usually the arguments wind up being 8 hours of back and forth emails. If she refuses to respond, he writes every 3 minutes asking in anger where she is and then starts calling around the office for her so she can answer.
She also saw narcissm and it seems that he has that too but she also saw that personality trait is very difficult in divorce/custody proceedings so she's afriad of that.
In the end, he turns around saying she's abusive when I saw her as merely snapping and defending herself of bullying behavior.
We know that YNHD/T but she is just confused: is all of this emotional abuse? Or flat out a jerk being a jerk?
A friend of mine is in a bad marriage but she can't decide if it's emotional abuse, narcissm, or just plain messed up. She will be seeking therapy soon to help her start to gain strength in making a decision to leave but right now, she's worn out, second guessing her part in things, etc.
The relationship has always had it's ups and downs and before her child came a year ago, she could just ignore his tirades/arguments but now she's thinking 'you know, this isn't right for anyone' and wants out.
Some examples are when they have arguments, he 100% blames her, even if he initially did something wrong. There is zero accountability on his part. Usually his comment is "well you make me act this way". And acting that way is screaming at her, blaming her, threatening to take the child away from her if she divorces him. She tells him to stop arguing in front of their 1.5 year old and he said "too bad. You're making me." or "Tough, the kid can deal wtih 30 seconds. YOU will hear me."
He's big on making his point, making her listen/hear it. If she tries to leave because it gets too much (this was before the child) he took her keys. If she moved to another room to have the 3+ hour argument stop, he follows her through the house lecturing her. She begs for him to shut up and just stop, he says no he has things to say.
She (and I) are baffled by this behavior she told him outright that him yelling at her in front of their child and him saying "tough" shows his selfishness and he can't even admit that was wrong.
Then he'll send her emails saying how much he loves her, etc. and "if only you would show me you love me then I won't act the way I do." As if she has some magic powers of influence. She knows everyone is accountable for their own actions--well except him it seems. And she has withdrawn over the past 6 years because of his actions. There are more crazy tales of his behavior all the way back to the day before her wedding when she refused to get in a car with a drunk driver, switched cars with a friend, it made him look bad (according to him) and she wound up getting lectured on her behavior (ie. how it made him look).
He has a history of punching a hold in the door, calling her every name in the book when he was drunk, threatening her with a photo of him holding a shotgun and sending it to her and some guy when he thought they cheated (she never did).
She grew up in a very abusive household and doesn't want it for her son. The only time this guy ever touched her was when she finally went to bed after an all day fight and ignored him because she didn't want anymore fighting around the infant (at the time). He came into the room, she ignored him pretending she was sleeping, he grabbed her arm hard telilng her to "look at her" and she ignored him. The next day she had a clear sign that he grabbed her arm hard --- a thumbprint bruise. She never once filed/called the police out of embarassment/fear of the cops showing up at the door.
She says she's no prize either when the fighting got bad. Out of button pushing defensiveness she has swore at him, yelled, and only once hit him when he was so violently drunk and was calling her c**t, b**ch, etc that she snapped thinking that a slap would wake him up on how he acted. It didn't. He went more violent, punched the hole in the door right next to her head and put his finger to her check and pushed her yelling at her for slapping him.
I know this sounds horrible and she loves her child to death. But she is afraid of a brutal custody battle/trial--which he has threatened. She wants to agreeably mediate in the best interest of the child. He, however, wants full/primary custody. Only one lawyer told her that he "could" win only because she works a normal job/hours while he stays home to work while watching the child 3 days a week. But honestly, hour per hour---their time matches, it's just not as consecutive as hers. She is the stable income, benefit provider for the family. He is far from stable income, no benefits, makes far less, and smokes weed. She knows this seems odd for him to "win" in a divorce but she's afraid nonetheless. That child is her whole life and she wants the best outcome for him after a divorce. If he's threatening her now and is dumb with safety, considerations with the child (he does love the child though), she worries about when it's visitation time---what IS going on.
Shes' trying to understand this very volitile, strange, wrong, and abusive marriage but can't put a finger on what exactly is the problem---narcissm, emotional abuse, etc. She's making plans to be stronger, get a clear direction and action plan to leave but again, she is afraid of all the ramifications knowing that if he's this "bizarre" abusive during the marriage, how will he be when he's served and during the process? This poor kid will be a pawn.
She's worn out, tired, drained, and at times says "it feels like he's won. He's beaten me 100% to where I don't even have self confidence in being around company anymore. All I get are lectures about how I act/am."
So she's been trying to pinpoint what the deal is with him and some have said he's emotionally abusive but definitions on the internet are more towards the extreme of calling names like "stupid", etc. And he doens't do that. He just does the above and constantly lectures her to the point of nauseum on her 'behavior' and "well you start fights, dont' you see that?" Usually the arguments wind up being 8 hours of back and forth emails. If she refuses to respond, he writes every 3 minutes asking in anger where she is and then starts calling around the office for her so she can answer.
She also saw narcissm and it seems that he has that too but she also saw that personality trait is very difficult in divorce/custody proceedings so she's afriad of that.
In the end, he turns around saying she's abusive when I saw her as merely snapping and defending herself of bullying behavior.
We know that YNHD/T but she is just confused: is all of this emotional abuse? Or flat out a jerk being a jerk?
Um, why does it make a difference? Not to be the first on the DTMFA brigade, but that doesn't sound like a very healthy relationship for anyone to be in. What would she do differently if it were emotional abuse as opposed to "a jerk being a jerk"?
posted by gingerbeer at 1:17 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by gingerbeer at 1:17 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Whether or not it's emotional abuse, and I think it is, living that kind of life where one feels like "he's won. He's beaten me 100% to where I don't even have self confidence in being around company anymore. All I get are lectures about how I act/am."
I can speak from a slightly milder experience that it doesn't get better. He may never hit her, he may never cheat, he may never do anything more than follow her around to make her "see his point", but regardless, she'll never have a moment's peace in this relationship and her child will grow up with a mother that's emotionally and spiritually beaten.
posted by teleri025 at 1:21 PM on June 3, 2010 [4 favorites]
I can speak from a slightly milder experience that it doesn't get better. He may never hit her, he may never cheat, he may never do anything more than follow her around to make her "see his point", but regardless, she'll never have a moment's peace in this relationship and her child will grow up with a mother that's emotionally and spiritually beaten.
posted by teleri025 at 1:21 PM on June 3, 2010 [4 favorites]
Have her call an abuse hotline or her local spouse abuse shelter.
This is abuse. Period. And frankly it is ratcheting up to get into the physical...
And, oh by the way, social services will consider abuse in front of the child to BE child abuse.
She doesn't need to stay in that atmosphere one more second. He needs to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this behavior will not be tolerated, and she needs to be safe when he finds out the line has been drawn. The spouse abuse people will be able to coach her thru this.
She is wise to be concerned about what could happen. She needs to take this incredibly seriously, as it sounds like she is doing.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:27 PM on June 3, 2010 [21 favorites]
This is abuse. Period. And frankly it is ratcheting up to get into the physical...
And, oh by the way, social services will consider abuse in front of the child to BE child abuse.
She doesn't need to stay in that atmosphere one more second. He needs to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this behavior will not be tolerated, and she needs to be safe when he finds out the line has been drawn. The spouse abuse people will be able to coach her thru this.
She is wise to be concerned about what could happen. She needs to take this incredibly seriously, as it sounds like she is doing.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:27 PM on June 3, 2010 [21 favorites]
Taking someone's keys so they can't leave isn't emotional abuse, it's physical abuse.
posted by Jairus at 1:27 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Jairus at 1:27 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Of course this is abusive. Let me list the ways:
1) He blames her for his own behavior. No one is responsible for an other person's actions against them. This is classic abuser behavior: look what you made me do!
2) He won't admit he's wrong.
3) He shouts at her in front of their child and will not drop an argument even when his wife agrees.
4) He punched a hole in a door!
5) He called her a cunt and a bitch!
6) He was angry at HER for not getting into a car with a drunk driver, rather than at the drunk driver who could have potentially endangered his fiancee.
This is classic abuse. "Stupid" is nothing on bitch and cunt.
I cannot imagine any court giving him custody of their child when told the above. She needs to get out now.
posted by peacheater at 1:29 PM on June 3, 2010 [7 favorites]
1) He blames her for his own behavior. No one is responsible for an other person's actions against them. This is classic abuser behavior: look what you made me do!
2) He won't admit he's wrong.
3) He shouts at her in front of their child and will not drop an argument even when his wife agrees.
4) He punched a hole in a door!
5) He called her a cunt and a bitch!
6) He was angry at HER for not getting into a car with a drunk driver, rather than at the drunk driver who could have potentially endangered his fiancee.
This is classic abuse. "Stupid" is nothing on bitch and cunt.
I cannot imagine any court giving him custody of their child when told the above. She needs to get out now.
posted by peacheater at 1:29 PM on June 3, 2010 [7 favorites]
She needs to get out of this relationship, like yesterday. And while I applaud her desire to shield her child, this was an unhealthy marriage from the beginning, and I'm sorry it had to get to this point before your friend realized SHE deserves better, too.
You might want to counsel your friend to have some therapy to keep her from making the same mistake again, because, coming from her own past history with familial abuse, she may be particularly vulnerable to jerky guys like this in the future.
As far as definitions go, as gingerbeer says, what does it matter? You don't have to put a label on this to know it's not the marriage anyone would want.
I know the threat to take her child away must scare the hell out of her, but this guy hasn't lived in a vacuum, and I'm sure that if it comes down to some ugly custody issues, she'll have plenty of past incidences to cite that show she is simply the better choice for primary custodial parent, period.
posted by misha at 1:30 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
You might want to counsel your friend to have some therapy to keep her from making the same mistake again, because, coming from her own past history with familial abuse, she may be particularly vulnerable to jerky guys like this in the future.
As far as definitions go, as gingerbeer says, what does it matter? You don't have to put a label on this to know it's not the marriage anyone would want.
I know the threat to take her child away must scare the hell out of her, but this guy hasn't lived in a vacuum, and I'm sure that if it comes down to some ugly custody issues, she'll have plenty of past incidences to cite that show she is simply the better choice for primary custodial parent, period.
posted by misha at 1:30 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
She needs counseling, she needs to talk to someone about domestic abuse. He does too. endless arguments with a small child in the house are no good for the kid, or anyone else.
posted by mareli at 1:30 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by mareli at 1:30 PM on June 3, 2010
He has a history of punching a hold in the door, calling her every name in the book when he was drunk, threatening her with a photo of him holding a shotgun and sending it to her
I also advise her to share this with the police, with any witnesses to this too.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:30 PM on June 3, 2010
I also advise her to share this with the police, with any witnesses to this too.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:30 PM on June 3, 2010
Hey, I have a better idea. Have her call the shelter and get out NOW.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:31 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:31 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yes this is abuse. Isolating her from other people, threatening with violence and taking away her child, making her responsible for his behavior - those are all textbook symptoms of abuse.
Someone will likely have good advice on how she should proceed, but I'd recommend starting by calling the local domestic violence hotline. She can at least get some good advice on her options that way.
posted by lunasol at 1:32 PM on June 3, 2010
Someone will likely have good advice on how she should proceed, but I'd recommend starting by calling the local domestic violence hotline. She can at least get some good advice on her options that way.
posted by lunasol at 1:32 PM on June 3, 2010
is all of this emotional abuse? Or flat out a jerk being a jerk?
That's immaterial. He's not good to her. She should leave.
posted by joost de vries at 1:33 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
That's immaterial. He's not good to her. She should leave.
posted by joost de vries at 1:33 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Her son is learning how to treat women and romantic partners. Already.
If she wants her son to be like his father, she should continue modeling that it is ok to yell, follow, and incessantly blame.
If she wants him to grow into a respectful, calm, nurturing person who will not tolerate being yelled at, followed, and blamed, she needs to leave.
Tonight.
There are resources for mothers in her position. Battered women's shelters will help unless they are overcrowded.
My thoughts are with your friend. I know this is hard. Please remind her that she is not the reason her husband behaves the way he does.
posted by bilabial at 1:33 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
If she wants her son to be like his father, she should continue modeling that it is ok to yell, follow, and incessantly blame.
If she wants him to grow into a respectful, calm, nurturing person who will not tolerate being yelled at, followed, and blamed, she needs to leave.
Tonight.
There are resources for mothers in her position. Battered women's shelters will help unless they are overcrowded.
My thoughts are with your friend. I know this is hard. Please remind her that she is not the reason her husband behaves the way he does.
posted by bilabial at 1:33 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
She's trying to understand this very volitile, strange, wrong, and abusive marriage but can't put a finger on what exactly is the problem---narcissm, emotional abuse, etc.
It doesn't matter. I spent a very long time trying to figure out what was going on with my (thankfully less intense) wife before I realized that I was just procrastinating on the decision that needed to be made. There's no indication he'll change his ways no matter what the cause: she'll have to deal with situation as it stands.
how will he be when he's served and during the process? This poor kid will be a pawn.
He'll be every bit as bad as he is now (except when he's oh so sorry and it will never happen again). The poor kid will be even more of a pawn than it is already. The only difference is that there will be an end in sight.
So the choice is to live with this situation indefinitely or bite the bullet and put an end to it. Both options suck, but I'd say that putting an end to it will certainly suck less in the long run.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:35 PM on June 3, 2010
It doesn't matter. I spent a very long time trying to figure out what was going on with my (thankfully less intense) wife before I realized that I was just procrastinating on the decision that needed to be made. There's no indication he'll change his ways no matter what the cause: she'll have to deal with situation as it stands.
how will he be when he's served and during the process? This poor kid will be a pawn.
He'll be every bit as bad as he is now (except when he's oh so sorry and it will never happen again). The poor kid will be even more of a pawn than it is already. The only difference is that there will be an end in sight.
So the choice is to live with this situation indefinitely or bite the bullet and put an end to it. Both options suck, but I'd say that putting an end to it will certainly suck less in the long run.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:35 PM on June 3, 2010
This is decidedly abuse.
It's also a common tactic to threaten to try to get custody so that the other person is afraid to leave. She needs to be out of that relationship yesterday. It's critical for her son to see that you don't treat people like that.
posted by Zophi at 1:35 PM on June 3, 2010
It's also a common tactic to threaten to try to get custody so that the other person is afraid to leave. She needs to be out of that relationship yesterday. It's critical for her son to see that you don't treat people like that.
posted by Zophi at 1:35 PM on June 3, 2010
Response by poster: My further question is without documentation/police reports, she worries the courts will find this all "he said/she said" bullshit.
The only possible "witness" is the guy he sent that shotgun pic to. She thought maybe if necessary, he could testify that "yep, the guy sent me that crazy pic. We totally didn't cheat, etc."
And Misha, her first boyfriend was like this, her second was nice but the dad/brother were jerks making it end, now she chose him. She has a history of never ending a relationship--good, bad, or just time. She knows 100% when they're over or need to be over, there's something missing that she just can't do it and she has zero clue why. (part of a mission when she enters therapy). And yes, she is terrified of dating after this. She says "I have a child now, if I chose someone like him to have a child with, who will I date to endanger my child?" I fear that she will socially shut down, never trust anyone again out of fear, and wind up being alone. She's in her late 30s.
posted by stormpooper at 1:36 PM on June 3, 2010
The only possible "witness" is the guy he sent that shotgun pic to. She thought maybe if necessary, he could testify that "yep, the guy sent me that crazy pic. We totally didn't cheat, etc."
And Misha, her first boyfriend was like this, her second was nice but the dad/brother were jerks making it end, now she chose him. She has a history of never ending a relationship--good, bad, or just time. She knows 100% when they're over or need to be over, there's something missing that she just can't do it and she has zero clue why. (part of a mission when she enters therapy). And yes, she is terrified of dating after this. She says "I have a child now, if I chose someone like him to have a child with, who will I date to endanger my child?" I fear that she will socially shut down, never trust anyone again out of fear, and wind up being alone. She's in her late 30s.
posted by stormpooper at 1:36 PM on June 3, 2010
Stormpooper, there is help for her and with that help she can in future make better choices but I am in fear for her safety and that of her child NOW. And she needs to document the hell out of everything she can think of too. Again. the shelter will talk to her and give her info as to what to do. At the very least she needs respite from this crap.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:40 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:40 PM on June 3, 2010
Assure your friend that his threats of seeking full custody are just those: threats. Just more of his emotional manipulation, seeking out sore or vulnerable spots and squeezing them whenever he feels his control slipping away.
If push comes to shove, I doubt someone so selfish and troubled will really want to be solely responsible for full-time child-care.
posted by hermitosis at 1:41 PM on June 3, 2010
If push comes to shove, I doubt someone so selfish and troubled will really want to be solely responsible for full-time child-care.
posted by hermitosis at 1:41 PM on June 3, 2010
Response by poster: And sorry, last question for her, for custody, while she wants primary she also wants her son's father to be involved. Her intent is not to keep her son away from him (she's overly considerate). But she doesn't know who is the best person to help her make a decision on what to put down--the lawyer, the therapist, etc? She wants to do the least amount of after divorce damage to the child. She wants him to get day visitation and her nights/primary residence. He already threatened "No way will you get primary, I will tell them you're crazy (because she's been in therapy for this bullshit relationship/family abuse, etc) and you will lose. He will live with me and you can get visits here and there."
Any mother would be terrified of this. She went through infertility --- almost lost him---illness--almost lost him twice--etc. And she feels her child is her last chance at having a child ever again (the whole fear of dating) so it's intensily important for her to have primary custody of the child. She feels a man who doesnt' hold down a steady income, no benefits, and history of weed/abusive behavior should not get primary custody.
posted by stormpooper at 1:42 PM on June 3, 2010
Any mother would be terrified of this. She went through infertility --- almost lost him---illness--almost lost him twice--etc. And she feels her child is her last chance at having a child ever again (the whole fear of dating) so it's intensily important for her to have primary custody of the child. She feels a man who doesnt' hold down a steady income, no benefits, and history of weed/abusive behavior should not get primary custody.
posted by stormpooper at 1:42 PM on June 3, 2010
That asshole sounds just like my dad. The scariest thing with this kind of people is that they truly don't know what's wrong with them, and they really think that it's not their fault. They always have someone to blame and they truly believe it. My dad still thinks my mom cheated on him, when such thing never happened. My mom put up with him for almost 30 years. Now that we(my sister and brother) are grown up, and she runs a very successful business, she has finally stepped up and is about to file for divorce. I thought this might cause my dad to realize what is really wrong with him, but guess what? It made him worse. Right now I'm scared to find out more and more about the true nature of my dad. He is a wacko and I can't believe I grew up thinking he was a normal person.
That being said...
I hope she has a decent job to be able to support herself. She should prepare for divorce. She needs to find a job if she doesn't have one, find place to live, etc, etc. No matter how long it takes, have everything ready and file for divorce. Get a lawyer. Before it's too late...
posted by dustoff at 1:44 PM on June 3, 2010
That being said...
I hope she has a decent job to be able to support herself. She should prepare for divorce. She needs to find a job if she doesn't have one, find place to live, etc, etc. No matter how long it takes, have everything ready and file for divorce. Get a lawyer. Before it's too late...
posted by dustoff at 1:44 PM on June 3, 2010
The technicality of whether it's emotional or physical hardly matters -- punching holes in doors and marks caused by rough grabbing are pretty obvious indicators that she has a legitimate reason to feel endangered. Intimidation is abuse, too.
Note that I lived in that house -- and after years of going at each other verbally, something snapped in my step-father and I found my eight-year-old self beating him off with a baseball bat while my mom and all the other kids cowered in a corner waiting to be killed; I also lived in the house where it was my mom who eventually snapped at my father, and he still has marks from where she smashed his head with a stove grate. The takeaway from both of those incidents was that it's really hard to tell if things are going to escalate when two people are going at each other constantly, so for everyone's sake, it's better to just get them the hell away from each other before it does.
posted by Pufferish at 1:44 PM on June 3, 2010
Note that I lived in that house -- and after years of going at each other verbally, something snapped in my step-father and I found my eight-year-old self beating him off with a baseball bat while my mom and all the other kids cowered in a corner waiting to be killed; I also lived in the house where it was my mom who eventually snapped at my father, and he still has marks from where she smashed his head with a stove grate. The takeaway from both of those incidents was that it's really hard to tell if things are going to escalate when two people are going at each other constantly, so for everyone's sake, it's better to just get them the hell away from each other before it does.
posted by Pufferish at 1:44 PM on June 3, 2010
If I were in this position, I would be making plans to be gone already when the husband gets home. Especially if said husband was in the habit of taking my keys to prevent me from leaving. No-one deserves the treatment she's getting.
Dude sounds vindictive. Given that, she needs to set up a separate bank account and/or get a separate visa card so he can't shut down her ability to pay for necessities. Get her paycheque deposited in the new account. Bundle up clothing and necessary items for the child and herself, grab the child, find somewhere to sleep for the next while, and leave the house.
Then call the police or domestic abuse or whomever. But get out now and remove dude's influence from the equation. The last thing she wants is him snooping in her email or finding out "what she's doing" and trying to shut it down.
posted by LN at 1:48 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Dude sounds vindictive. Given that, she needs to set up a separate bank account and/or get a separate visa card so he can't shut down her ability to pay for necessities. Get her paycheque deposited in the new account. Bundle up clothing and necessary items for the child and herself, grab the child, find somewhere to sleep for the next while, and leave the house.
Then call the police or domestic abuse or whomever. But get out now and remove dude's influence from the equation. The last thing she wants is him snooping in her email or finding out "what she's doing" and trying to shut it down.
posted by LN at 1:48 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
A lot of the time, people would like to understand why other people act the way they do and completely miss the fact that while it matters in terms of understanding, it does not change the fact that the effects are the same. So whether she decides he's a jerk or emotionally abusive, it still affects her in the same way and is a bad relationship for her. There are some things that cannot be understood, and she needs to let this be one of them- at least right now for her immediate safety, and she can work on the why's later in therapy. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter if this guy is abusive because he's a jerk or part of a cycle of violence, the fact remains that his actions are abusive.
posted by questionsandanchors at 1:50 PM on June 3, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by questionsandanchors at 1:50 PM on June 3, 2010 [5 favorites]
Also, stick to the hard facts. Document specific behavior, resist the temptation to armchair-diagnose what exactly his problem is. Referring to him as a "narcissist" (psychologically speaking) is going to be meaningless at best when it comes to describing her situation to anyone in an official capacity to help. That's where you get into "he said, she said" territory.
I hope your friend gets help. She seems to know what's happening is not right, but she still seems to think she can trust herself to act in her own best interest -- and her child's -- while she's actively being victimized. This, in my experience, is the number one fallacy that victims of abuse fall prey to. They think they know how to best handle the situation because of their proximity to it, when it's actually exactly the opposite: their proximity incapacitates them and inhibits their ability to take control of their lives.
posted by hermitosis at 1:51 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
I hope your friend gets help. She seems to know what's happening is not right, but she still seems to think she can trust herself to act in her own best interest -- and her child's -- while she's actively being victimized. This, in my experience, is the number one fallacy that victims of abuse fall prey to. They think they know how to best handle the situation because of their proximity to it, when it's actually exactly the opposite: their proximity incapacitates them and inhibits their ability to take control of their lives.
posted by hermitosis at 1:51 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
This sounds like an ex BIL of mine. Dumping him should have been the best day of my sister's life, but he made good on his threat to keep the kids. He'd worked tirelessly to turn them against her, telling them that if they stayed with mommy that they'd starve, and telling the court that she was an alcoholic (which was a lie). Tell your friend to get out before her kid gets warped, and before he starts building a case against her.
In dealing with him post divorce, my sister has found the book "It's All YOUR Fault" by Bill Eddy to be helpful.
posted by pickypicky at 1:52 PM on June 3, 2010
In dealing with him post divorce, my sister has found the book "It's All YOUR Fault" by Bill Eddy to be helpful.
posted by pickypicky at 1:52 PM on June 3, 2010
I wish I could be more helpful but this is pushing every trigger I have right now, because I have been close to this. This is the best that I can do.
It is emotional abuse. It is physical abuse. It is abuse. It is toxic. It is not fixable. She needs to leave.
He will make it as difficult as possible. He will get his friends to tell him that he is right.
He is violent. He is dangerous. She is in danger. Her son is in danger. She cannot think about who gets custody because her life is in danger.
It just has to happen once. And then when he hits her that first time it will just get easier.
She needs to not worry right now about what kind of person she is that she made this bad choice. It is not about blaming herself. She just needs to get out. Pinpointing his 'problem' is not going to help her, because he's not ever going to say that he's wrong and go get help. It is hard for her to see this right now. But she has to get out.
I wish her luck.
posted by micawber at 1:59 PM on June 3, 2010 [11 favorites]
It is emotional abuse. It is physical abuse. It is abuse. It is toxic. It is not fixable. She needs to leave.
He will make it as difficult as possible. He will get his friends to tell him that he is right.
He is violent. He is dangerous. She is in danger. Her son is in danger. She cannot think about who gets custody because her life is in danger.
It just has to happen once. And then when he hits her that first time it will just get easier.
She needs to not worry right now about what kind of person she is that she made this bad choice. It is not about blaming herself. She just needs to get out. Pinpointing his 'problem' is not going to help her, because he's not ever going to say that he's wrong and go get help. It is hard for her to see this right now. But she has to get out.
I wish her luck.
posted by micawber at 1:59 PM on June 3, 2010 [11 favorites]
This is a "Do not Pass Go" situation. He has never physically laid a hand on her YET but the likelihood or possibility of him doing so when she leaves is very high. Additionally, it is this type of abuse that often leads to fathers kidnapping children and worse. I say this not to scare you or her but to make sure she takes precautions.
1. She needs to call an abuse hotline TODAY.
2. She needs help getting out and getting somewhere safe where he can't find her.
3. She needs a temporary restraining order (which will then go to court to become permanent)
4. She needs any and all documentation. Take a photo of the hole in the wall, any emails (even those that say "I'm so sorry"). Save all voicemails and get a recorder from RadioShack and save them digitally. She may want to transcribe these and have them for court. They were very useful in my situation and the judge appreciated having them transcribed.
5. Make sure friends/family who are not ABSOLUTELY on her side don't have her location.
I am also in complete agreement with hermitosis: her proximity is a handicap and she may not be able to see how bad it actually is. One way of dealing with this is to ask her if her sister/girlfriend had a boyfriend/husband that did x (name the actual situations and how she felt) what would she suggest?
Good luck.
posted by Sophie1 at 2:02 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
1. She needs to call an abuse hotline TODAY.
2. She needs help getting out and getting somewhere safe where he can't find her.
3. She needs a temporary restraining order (which will then go to court to become permanent)
4. She needs any and all documentation. Take a photo of the hole in the wall, any emails (even those that say "I'm so sorry"). Save all voicemails and get a recorder from RadioShack and save them digitally. She may want to transcribe these and have them for court. They were very useful in my situation and the judge appreciated having them transcribed.
5. Make sure friends/family who are not ABSOLUTELY on her side don't have her location.
I am also in complete agreement with hermitosis: her proximity is a handicap and she may not be able to see how bad it actually is. One way of dealing with this is to ask her if her sister/girlfriend had a boyfriend/husband that did x (name the actual situations and how she felt) what would she suggest?
Good luck.
posted by Sophie1 at 2:02 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: The downside in "evidence" is while she has all his emails of craziness, apologies, threats, etc. she engaged in arguments back so he's saved his side too.
She never wanted a trial, crazy he said/she said and she worries that the emails can be used against her too. There are some so blatent in his manipulation where he said "you are emotionally unbalanced."
Who says that without someone coaching them to say that or up to something? She's not emotionally unbalanced. She's fed up. Her doctor, therapist, OB said there is nothing wrong with her beyond severe stress and they're amazed she's handling it pretty well.
posted by stormpooper at 2:05 PM on June 3, 2010
She never wanted a trial, crazy he said/she said and she worries that the emails can be used against her too. There are some so blatent in his manipulation where he said "you are emotionally unbalanced."
Who says that without someone coaching them to say that or up to something? She's not emotionally unbalanced. She's fed up. Her doctor, therapist, OB said there is nothing wrong with her beyond severe stress and they're amazed she's handling it pretty well.
posted by stormpooper at 2:05 PM on June 3, 2010
This is abuse. And it escalates over the years, so that while the abuser may only explode a few times a year at first, eventually it's only a few times a month, and then a few times a week. And as children get older, they become intertwined with spousal abuse in a million different ways.
My first memory is of my father shouting at and physically intimidating my mother. By the time I was four, it was my job to try to get between my parents, to try to talk my dad down. When I was eight my parents almost split up after I had to call the cops on them for the first time, but my father pulled the same shit your friend's husband is pulling. I was going around the playground, bragging to the other kids that my parents were getting divorced and I was going to live with my mom, and everything fell apart when my dad took me out of the house and told my mother she was never going to see me again.
We didn't leave until I was sixteen, and by then untold damage had been done to both of us.
The abuse trickles down. And your friend knows this, which is why she wants to shield her child from these fights. But while the kid is a toddler now, and with a lot of luck won't remember these things, the longer your friend stays with her abuser, the more the child is at risk.
Here's the good news: There are resources out there for women who need out of abusive situations, and your friend should take advantage of those. She could, for starters, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE.
posted by brina at 2:06 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
My first memory is of my father shouting at and physically intimidating my mother. By the time I was four, it was my job to try to get between my parents, to try to talk my dad down. When I was eight my parents almost split up after I had to call the cops on them for the first time, but my father pulled the same shit your friend's husband is pulling. I was going around the playground, bragging to the other kids that my parents were getting divorced and I was going to live with my mom, and everything fell apart when my dad took me out of the house and told my mother she was never going to see me again.
We didn't leave until I was sixteen, and by then untold damage had been done to both of us.
The abuse trickles down. And your friend knows this, which is why she wants to shield her child from these fights. But while the kid is a toddler now, and with a lot of luck won't remember these things, the longer your friend stays with her abuser, the more the child is at risk.
Here's the good news: There are resources out there for women who need out of abusive situations, and your friend should take advantage of those. She could, for starters, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE.
posted by brina at 2:06 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
stormpooper,
I'm not sure what you're asking here. Is the question whether this is abuse or whether she would lose a custody battle? I don't think either can be answered here. From your description it certainly sounds like a crappy family life, and yeah probably abusive. It seems, however, that the custody question will be answered by the legal system, which is designed to be objective as possible in seeking the best for the child. If this side of the story is accurate, it is highly unlikely the father will win primary custody.
Additionally, it is this type of abuse that often leads to fathers kidnapping children and worse.
...
2. She needs help getting out and getting somewhere safe where he can't find her.
5. Make sure friends/family who are not ABSOLUTELY on her side don't have her location.
Wait, what? Presuming you mean she shouldn't leave the kid behind, you're saying she should kidnap the kid so he won't?
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 2:14 PM on June 3, 2010
I'm not sure what you're asking here. Is the question whether this is abuse or whether she would lose a custody battle? I don't think either can be answered here. From your description it certainly sounds like a crappy family life, and yeah probably abusive. It seems, however, that the custody question will be answered by the legal system, which is designed to be objective as possible in seeking the best for the child. If this side of the story is accurate, it is highly unlikely the father will win primary custody.
Additionally, it is this type of abuse that often leads to fathers kidnapping children and worse.
...
2. She needs help getting out and getting somewhere safe where he can't find her.
5. Make sure friends/family who are not ABSOLUTELY on her side don't have her location.
Wait, what? Presuming you mean she shouldn't leave the kid behind, you're saying she should kidnap the kid so he won't?
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 2:14 PM on June 3, 2010
Call an abuse hotline to get detailed, current information on what options you have. Tell them about the emails. They will refer you to someone who can help. It is confidential. They are trained professionals.
I know it's your friend but consider also calling the hotline yourself because hotlines are also for friends and family of victims. They might help you convince her.
posted by yaymukund at 2:37 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I know it's your friend but consider also calling the hotline yourself because hotlines are also for friends and family of victims. They might help you convince her.
posted by yaymukund at 2:37 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
I totally don't know what I'm talking about, but what about a nanny cam for a few weeks in the home? Would that help provide any evidence?
Another point that might influence the custody - has she suggested marriage counseling? has he refused? has a therapist talked to both of the?
posted by CathyG at 3:00 PM on June 3, 2010
Another point that might influence the custody - has she suggested marriage counseling? has he refused? has a therapist talked to both of the?
posted by CathyG at 3:00 PM on June 3, 2010
She never wanted a trial, crazy he said/she said and she worries that the emails can be used against her too.
It's likely that they will. And if she doesn't get out of the situation there will be hundreds and hundreds more of these email exchanges.
There are some so blatent in his manipulation where he said "you are emotionally unbalanced."
Who says that without someone coaching them to say that or up to something?
Someone who knows exactly what buttons to push, often instinctively. There's none of us in relationships who don't know exactly what sends our partners right over the edge. When one side starts pushing buttons continuously it's time to get out.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:21 PM on June 3, 2010
It's likely that they will. And if she doesn't get out of the situation there will be hundreds and hundreds more of these email exchanges.
There are some so blatent in his manipulation where he said "you are emotionally unbalanced."
Who says that without someone coaching them to say that or up to something?
Someone who knows exactly what buttons to push, often instinctively. There's none of us in relationships who don't know exactly what sends our partners right over the edge. When one side starts pushing buttons continuously it's time to get out.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:21 PM on June 3, 2010
This is outright emotional and physical abuse. She needs to call a domestic abuse hotline and let them know she would like to be placed in a shelter with her child. The most important thing is that she follows the advice of the shelter in how to leave her situation and break off contact.
posted by nestor_makhno at 4:10 PM on June 3, 2010
posted by nestor_makhno at 4:10 PM on June 3, 2010
is all of this emotional abuse? Or flat out a jerk being a jerk?
Replace "or" with "and", really. Without any signs of remorse or owning the problem (even after time to reflect), I'd say take one shot at counseling, and if he won't go, it's time to move on for the sake of her and her child.
posted by davejay at 4:11 PM on June 3, 2010
Replace "or" with "and", really. Without any signs of remorse or owning the problem (even after time to reflect), I'd say take one shot at counseling, and if he won't go, it's time to move on for the sake of her and her child.
posted by davejay at 4:11 PM on June 3, 2010
Please read Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men and also The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to recognize it and how to respond. Yes, this is abuse.
posted by Wordwoman at 4:44 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Wordwoman at 4:44 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
- This is absolutely abuse.
- This is a dangerous situation that is already escalating and will further escalate. Listen to her, and provide her with information such as fact sheets, the cycle of violence and the fact that violence escalates over time.
- You should encourage her to trust her instincts about what steps to take next. She probably has finely-honed instincts about what is and is not safe. Violence can go up during separation and divorce.
- A domestic violence hotline should be able to help her think through an escape plan, starting with immediate questions like how to leave the house safely when she's ready, and extending to longer-term questions, like custody.
- Custody is a serious concern, so I wouldn't belittle her worries there. Some reading resources are here. I'd encourage her to think proactively about how to deal with it, as opposed to letting it stop her completely.
- One easy step she could take that might benefit her later would be to leave essential documents (or at least copies) and a spare set of keys somewhere else, like maybe with you, if she can find a way to get them there safely.
The bottom line -- Ask Metafilter is a good starting point but she needs help from experts and professionals. Tell her to call 1.800.799.SAFE from a safe phone line.
posted by salvia at 5:00 PM on June 3, 2010
- This is a dangerous situation that is already escalating and will further escalate. Listen to her, and provide her with information such as fact sheets, the cycle of violence and the fact that violence escalates over time.
- You should encourage her to trust her instincts about what steps to take next. She probably has finely-honed instincts about what is and is not safe. Violence can go up during separation and divorce.
- A domestic violence hotline should be able to help her think through an escape plan, starting with immediate questions like how to leave the house safely when she's ready, and extending to longer-term questions, like custody.
- Custody is a serious concern, so I wouldn't belittle her worries there. Some reading resources are here. I'd encourage her to think proactively about how to deal with it, as opposed to letting it stop her completely.
- One easy step she could take that might benefit her later would be to leave essential documents (or at least copies) and a spare set of keys somewhere else, like maybe with you, if she can find a way to get them there safely.
The bottom line -- Ask Metafilter is a good starting point but she needs help from experts and professionals. Tell her to call 1.800.799.SAFE from a safe phone line.
posted by salvia at 5:00 PM on June 3, 2010
Lundy Bancroft (recommended above) also writes books about domestic violence by parents. It discusses how custody is sometimes used as a tool of abuse, and how to analyze the pros and cons of leaving, and how to help the child heal. (I haven't read them, so I can't say for sure how useful they'd be, but the book I did read was very good.)
posted by salvia at 5:04 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 5:04 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ok, I'm a little confused. You say she has stuff to work on when she enters therapy but then say her therapist says she isn't emotionally unstable. Which is it? Reading your question and your responses: she had an abusive childhood and now several similarly abusive relationships, so she needs to phone a hotline, get herself and the kid safe, document absolutely everything as far back as she can remember details and dates, and then get herself into therapy so she can stop the cycle of abuse. She is emotionally unstable, actually, because she keeps putting herself (and her child) in the cycle, when she acknowledges that what is happening is hurting her and her son and she has the means and wherewithal to stop it.
I sincerely wish her well, and am glad that she has a friend such as you to help her, but she needs to make the first steps of getting safe, then getting therapy, then getting custody/ rebuilding her life.
posted by goo at 5:41 PM on June 3, 2010
I sincerely wish her well, and am glad that she has a friend such as you to help her, but she needs to make the first steps of getting safe, then getting therapy, then getting custody/ rebuilding her life.
posted by goo at 5:41 PM on June 3, 2010
She does need to take every precaution. My husband, back in the 60's was taken by his father and hidden away in the Colorado mountains. Of course it was a different time and people "minded their own business" but men can and do pull crap like that to just get back at the mom. During the actual crisis time of the actual separation, till she (and authorities) can see just how he will act, there is absolutely nothing wrong with her being hidden away till the dust settles.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:48 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:48 PM on June 3, 2010 [1 favorite]
Guess what, it's already a physically abusive relationship, and it's only gonna get worse from here on in. It's not gonna stay at bruising much longer.
Yes, a custody fight is going to be awful. Yes, he's going to be as vindictive as possible--but it won't be all that much different from now except that the legal system will be involved to limit the damage and it won't be going on in her house 24-7. But at this point she can't avoid the awful. Some day, this guy's gonna start hurting their kid too. This will happen. She needs to at least try to stop the guy damaging her and her kid all the time by leaving. Screw father's rights and trying to make sure the kid and dad have a good relationship and he has a dad in his life--dad's going to treat the kid just like he does mom when the kid is old enough, and that'll be soon. They can't have a good relationship because Daddy likes to abuse people.
At this point, she'll live in hell and eventually be risking her life and her child's life to be around this guy, because this stuff does not get better. Court trials vs. death? Think about it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:01 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yes, a custody fight is going to be awful. Yes, he's going to be as vindictive as possible--but it won't be all that much different from now except that the legal system will be involved to limit the damage and it won't be going on in her house 24-7. But at this point she can't avoid the awful. Some day, this guy's gonna start hurting their kid too. This will happen. She needs to at least try to stop the guy damaging her and her kid all the time by leaving. Screw father's rights and trying to make sure the kid and dad have a good relationship and he has a dad in his life--dad's going to treat the kid just like he does mom when the kid is old enough, and that'll be soon. They can't have a good relationship because Daddy likes to abuse people.
At this point, she'll live in hell and eventually be risking her life and her child's life to be around this guy, because this stuff does not get better. Court trials vs. death? Think about it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:01 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
She needs to not worry right now about what kind of person she is that she made this bad choice. It is not about blaming herself. She just needs to get out. Pinpointing his 'problem' is not going to help her, because he's not ever going to say that he's wrong and go get help. It is hard for her to see this right now. But she has to get out.
Quoted for truth.
There are always a million worst-case scenarios that she will not feel prepared for at any point. Leaving is always going to be a scary thing that feels like leaping off a pier. A lot of abuse survivors stay in abusive situations simply because staying seems like the best way to 'stabilize' the situation; leaving would just get the abuser all upset and then who know what they might do. It's going to be hard for her to properly plan on dealing with the fallout of leaving, etc, without some kind of support network, and her husband, being abusive, is always going to make it as hard as he possibly can for her to establish the resources, support, and autonomy she needs to leave him. Let me repeat that for emphasis: as long as she stays in his house, he will do everything he can to make it hard for her to leave. He will try to convince her it's her fault, he will keep her emotionally off-balance, he will create crisis after crisis. She needs to find a place to go where he can't contact her - a shelter, the house of a friend who she knows is on her side (like yourself?) - and go there, with her son. Getting her head together and figuring out what to do next will be infinitely easier when she has made the break away from her abuser, I promise.
posted by ellehumour at 7:04 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
Quoted for truth.
There are always a million worst-case scenarios that she will not feel prepared for at any point. Leaving is always going to be a scary thing that feels like leaping off a pier. A lot of abuse survivors stay in abusive situations simply because staying seems like the best way to 'stabilize' the situation; leaving would just get the abuser all upset and then who know what they might do. It's going to be hard for her to properly plan on dealing with the fallout of leaving, etc, without some kind of support network, and her husband, being abusive, is always going to make it as hard as he possibly can for her to establish the resources, support, and autonomy she needs to leave him. Let me repeat that for emphasis: as long as she stays in his house, he will do everything he can to make it hard for her to leave. He will try to convince her it's her fault, he will keep her emotionally off-balance, he will create crisis after crisis. She needs to find a place to go where he can't contact her - a shelter, the house of a friend who she knows is on her side (like yourself?) - and go there, with her son. Getting her head together and figuring out what to do next will be infinitely easier when she has made the break away from her abuser, I promise.
posted by ellehumour at 7:04 PM on June 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
Is it bad metafilter etiquette to quote myself from another old post on abuse? Here you go:
"Ten years ago I was married to someone just like this. I have hearing loss in one ear from his slapping me, a scar and a little chip on the bone under my chin from his wedding ring clocking me. He thought he was being nicer than most because he hit me left-handed, for less of an impact. He was careful not to leave bruises, at least where they coud be seen. I miscarried a baby from the stress of being with him. I was just over 100 lbs (I'm 5'7") and it was never thin enough, it seemed. I stayed with him for many reasons that seemed rational at the time. The main one? That he could beat me but not *beat* me -- that I would stick it out. In retrospect it was the one way I felt I could keep some power. (Stupid, I know.)
All the advice given here (lawyer, restraining order, moving out, counseling) is great. But probably the most important thing for her to do is to get to a battered women's support group. I was in a lot of denial about my husband, even after I found out he had also cheated on me with a few other girls in town, until I went to that group. What I saw: women of every shape, size, and background telling the same painful story. We even had a running joke that we must have all been married to the same man! I swore that I would never, ever be in that situation again -- many of these women had gone back to either the same man or to another of the same ilk.
What became clear was that all the reasons I had for sticking with the guy were... not unique. He was not unique. This helped me get out (although actually he moved out first) of town and start a new life. I left a partially-finished graduate degree behind. I had no money, no furniture (he took it all). I had told no one about the abuse (I was ashamed). But I got another job. I cut classes to work. I scraped a little together and moved in with friends in another town (bless them), got a new job, a new apartment, a new life. I never looked back.
I think it's worth saying that physical abuse is usually just the tip of the iceberg, and a single punch can have many other forms of abuse (emotional, sexual, etc) behind it, going on for a long time. The fact that a man feels that he can throw a punch is pretty significant -- there is so much leading up to that act that your friend will need to work through, and that she most likely isn't telling you. It's a hard road, but she can travel it.
I finally came to my senses when after I yammered on to a friend about how I was still committed to working things out (still not outing the physical abuse, but she read between the lines), she asked me "what if your sister were in this relationship?" Without even thinking I immediately blurted: "I'd tell her to get the hell out." If she has sisters, ask her this question. It wrenched the veil from my eyes, at least enough to leave. But it still took me years to say words like "he raped me" without wanting to take it back, to ameliorate the memories so that he could somehow emerge from them a better person. In the end I realized that "the truth will set you free." Sometimes I would stop myself and ask myself, "what is the TRUTH of that situation?" I forced myself to look at it and see it for what it was: the worst form of manipulation by a poor excuse for a man. With practice, this got easier.
There are many ways of leaving the situation, but the most important thing after that is for her to ensure that she won't be back in it, with him or anyone else. For what it's worth, I'm married to a wonderful, kind, loving man now. We have a baby. I am at peace. I've also forgiven my ex-husband (but not forgotten)."
Even better update: my dear 2nd husband and I have 3 kids now! Thank God for second chances at life, and love.
posted by mdiskin at 7:16 PM on June 3, 2010 [7 favorites]
"Ten years ago I was married to someone just like this. I have hearing loss in one ear from his slapping me, a scar and a little chip on the bone under my chin from his wedding ring clocking me. He thought he was being nicer than most because he hit me left-handed, for less of an impact. He was careful not to leave bruises, at least where they coud be seen. I miscarried a baby from the stress of being with him. I was just over 100 lbs (I'm 5'7") and it was never thin enough, it seemed. I stayed with him for many reasons that seemed rational at the time. The main one? That he could beat me but not *beat* me -- that I would stick it out. In retrospect it was the one way I felt I could keep some power. (Stupid, I know.)
All the advice given here (lawyer, restraining order, moving out, counseling) is great. But probably the most important thing for her to do is to get to a battered women's support group. I was in a lot of denial about my husband, even after I found out he had also cheated on me with a few other girls in town, until I went to that group. What I saw: women of every shape, size, and background telling the same painful story. We even had a running joke that we must have all been married to the same man! I swore that I would never, ever be in that situation again -- many of these women had gone back to either the same man or to another of the same ilk.
What became clear was that all the reasons I had for sticking with the guy were... not unique. He was not unique. This helped me get out (although actually he moved out first) of town and start a new life. I left a partially-finished graduate degree behind. I had no money, no furniture (he took it all). I had told no one about the abuse (I was ashamed). But I got another job. I cut classes to work. I scraped a little together and moved in with friends in another town (bless them), got a new job, a new apartment, a new life. I never looked back.
I think it's worth saying that physical abuse is usually just the tip of the iceberg, and a single punch can have many other forms of abuse (emotional, sexual, etc) behind it, going on for a long time. The fact that a man feels that he can throw a punch is pretty significant -- there is so much leading up to that act that your friend will need to work through, and that she most likely isn't telling you. It's a hard road, but she can travel it.
I finally came to my senses when after I yammered on to a friend about how I was still committed to working things out (still not outing the physical abuse, but she read between the lines), she asked me "what if your sister were in this relationship?" Without even thinking I immediately blurted: "I'd tell her to get the hell out." If she has sisters, ask her this question. It wrenched the veil from my eyes, at least enough to leave. But it still took me years to say words like "he raped me" without wanting to take it back, to ameliorate the memories so that he could somehow emerge from them a better person. In the end I realized that "the truth will set you free." Sometimes I would stop myself and ask myself, "what is the TRUTH of that situation?" I forced myself to look at it and see it for what it was: the worst form of manipulation by a poor excuse for a man. With practice, this got easier.
There are many ways of leaving the situation, but the most important thing after that is for her to ensure that she won't be back in it, with him or anyone else. For what it's worth, I'm married to a wonderful, kind, loving man now. We have a baby. I am at peace. I've also forgiven my ex-husband (but not forgotten)."
Even better update: my dear 2nd husband and I have 3 kids now! Thank God for second chances at life, and love.
posted by mdiskin at 7:16 PM on June 3, 2010 [7 favorites]
@and hosted from Uranus
2. She needs help getting out and getting somewhere safe where he can't find her.
5. Make sure friends/family who are not ABSOLUTELY on her side don't have her location.
Wait, what? Presuming you mean she shouldn't leave the kid behind, you're saying she should kidnap the kid so he won't?
UM....Fuck yes. She's not the one that is sending photos holding a shotgun. A pretty ugly threat. She is not the one who blocks the door. She is not the one who is menacing. If there is danger to her and her child's life, then yes.
Also re: her side of the story with emails etc. Listen, I didn't react perfectly to every email. I didn't react perfectly to every voice mail, but I wasn't the one making the threats either. The judge has heard it all. If she told him to fuck off or whatever, it's fine. She needs to document this stuff. Her side and his.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:44 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
2. She needs help getting out and getting somewhere safe where he can't find her.
5. Make sure friends/family who are not ABSOLUTELY on her side don't have her location.
Wait, what? Presuming you mean she shouldn't leave the kid behind, you're saying she should kidnap the kid so he won't?
UM....Fuck yes. She's not the one that is sending photos holding a shotgun. A pretty ugly threat. She is not the one who blocks the door. She is not the one who is menacing. If there is danger to her and her child's life, then yes.
Also re: her side of the story with emails etc. Listen, I didn't react perfectly to every email. I didn't react perfectly to every voice mail, but I wasn't the one making the threats either. The judge has heard it all. If she told him to fuck off or whatever, it's fine. She needs to document this stuff. Her side and his.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:44 PM on June 3, 2010 [2 favorites]
Okay, there is some bad advice in the thread. For one thing, kidnapping the kid is obviously not a good idea.
Also, some comments make it sound easy to leave or minimize the risks that your friend faces (and does seem to be taking seriously):
Assure your friend that his threats of seeking full custody are just those: threats.
Yes, a custody fight is going to be awful. Yes, he's going to be as vindictive as possible--but it won't be all that much different from now except that the legal system will be involved to limit the damage and it won't be going on in her house 24-7.
He might carry out the threats, the situation might be worse, and the legal system might exacerbate the situation. From a fact sheet about domestic violence and custody from the page of resources I linked above (I left out the academic citations for these statements) --
- Abusive parents are more likely than non-abusive ones to seek full custody
- They are successful about 70% of the time (!!)
- Allegations of domestic violence have no demonstrated effect on the rate at which fathers are awarded custody of their children
- Mothers who are victims of DV are often depressed and suffering from PTSD and as a result, can present poorly in court
- Many batterers' motivation to intimidate and control their victims through the children increases after separation
Also, the time of separation is often a time of heightened danger. She knows her situation much better than a bunch of us on the internet can wrap our minds around. Validate her concerns about her safety and the child's. Encourage her to make careful plans that ensure her safety as she moves forward. Help her find professional assistance in planning how she can have the greatest likelihood of winning custody.
posted by salvia at 9:25 PM on June 3, 2010
Also, some comments make it sound easy to leave or minimize the risks that your friend faces (and does seem to be taking seriously):
Assure your friend that his threats of seeking full custody are just those: threats.
Yes, a custody fight is going to be awful. Yes, he's going to be as vindictive as possible--but it won't be all that much different from now except that the legal system will be involved to limit the damage and it won't be going on in her house 24-7.
He might carry out the threats, the situation might be worse, and the legal system might exacerbate the situation. From a fact sheet about domestic violence and custody from the page of resources I linked above (I left out the academic citations for these statements) --
- Abusive parents are more likely than non-abusive ones to seek full custody
- They are successful about 70% of the time (!!)
- Allegations of domestic violence have no demonstrated effect on the rate at which fathers are awarded custody of their children
- Mothers who are victims of DV are often depressed and suffering from PTSD and as a result, can present poorly in court
- Many batterers' motivation to intimidate and control their victims through the children increases after separation
Also, the time of separation is often a time of heightened danger. She knows her situation much better than a bunch of us on the internet can wrap our minds around. Validate her concerns about her safety and the child's. Encourage her to make careful plans that ensure her safety as she moves forward. Help her find professional assistance in planning how she can have the greatest likelihood of winning custody.
posted by salvia at 9:25 PM on June 3, 2010
He might carry out the threats, the situation might be worse, and the legal system might exacerbate the situation. From a fact sheet about domestic violence and custody from the page of resources I linked above (I left out the academic citations for these statements) --
- Abusive parents are more likely than non-abusive ones to seek full custody
- They are successful about 70% of the time (!!)
There is no "academic citation" for the 70% (!!) number. The link you posted cites http://aja.ncsc.dni.us/domviol/page5.html which says "Studies show that batterers have been able to convince authorities that the victim is unfit or undeserving of sole custody in approximately 70% of challenged cases" but doesn't provide any more info about said "studies".
It's highly questionable whether the father in this case is a "batterer" as used in that quote (he has never touched the child and once left a thumbprint bruise on the mother, the mother has also hit the father once), so I'm not sure how relevant that stat is, even if it's accurate. The simple fact is that the mother gets the kid in 8 out 10 families where one parent has custody. If the father is really as abusive as the OP and most commenters have made him out to be, she has little to worry about in court.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 6:50 AM on June 4, 2010
- Abusive parents are more likely than non-abusive ones to seek full custody
- They are successful about 70% of the time (!!)
There is no "academic citation" for the 70% (!!) number. The link you posted cites http://aja.ncsc.dni.us/domviol/page5.html which says "Studies show that batterers have been able to convince authorities that the victim is unfit or undeserving of sole custody in approximately 70% of challenged cases" but doesn't provide any more info about said "studies".
It's highly questionable whether the father in this case is a "batterer" as used in that quote (he has never touched the child and once left a thumbprint bruise on the mother, the mother has also hit the father once), so I'm not sure how relevant that stat is, even if it's accurate. The simple fact is that the mother gets the kid in 8 out 10 families where one parent has custody. If the father is really as abusive as the OP and most commenters have made him out to be, she has little to worry about in court.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 6:50 AM on June 4, 2010
Abusive parents are more likely than non-abusive ones to seek full custody than nonviolent ones ...
...and they are successful about 70% of the time.
Actually, thinking more about it, that statement is very misleading and I'm surprised the American Bar Association put it's name on it. The American Judges Foundation link where they get the 70% number says "batterers have been able to convince authorities that the victim is unfit or undeserving of sole custody". Meaning that the "batterer" was able to retain some parental rights to visitation on 70% of the cases, which is wholly different from seeking full custody for themselves.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:17 AM on June 4, 2010
...and they are successful about 70% of the time.
Actually, thinking more about it, that statement is very misleading and I'm surprised the American Bar Association put it's name on it. The American Judges Foundation link where they get the 70% number says "batterers have been able to convince authorities that the victim is unfit or undeserving of sole custody". Meaning that the "batterer" was able to retain some parental rights to visitation on 70% of the cases, which is wholly different from seeking full custody for themselves.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 7:17 AM on June 4, 2010
Response by poster: @hosted---here is a quote similar (w/ citation) of how the abuser "may" get custody even though he is the abuser: http://www.womenslaw.org/laws_state_type.php?id=119&state_code=IL
It's all such bullshit. I was reading the role of a custody evaluator. So if the husband wants to go all the way with trial/court, then an evaluator will interview them both. He's very narcistic/charming. People do like him up front. She's overly honest to a fault. It's when people like custody evaluators come into play, she feels like she's going to get screwed even though she's a better provider, has always stopped the fighting in front of the child, puts the kid first over herself, etc.
posted by stormpooper at 8:12 AM on June 4, 2010
It's all such bullshit. I was reading the role of a custody evaluator. So if the husband wants to go all the way with trial/court, then an evaluator will interview them both. He's very narcistic/charming. People do like him up front. She's overly honest to a fault. It's when people like custody evaluators come into play, she feels like she's going to get screwed even though she's a better provider, has always stopped the fighting in front of the child, puts the kid first over herself, etc.
posted by stormpooper at 8:12 AM on June 4, 2010
Response by poster: And this helps understand how the laws work.
And after reading all of that, this is why she's delaying things. It's all one big fight, back and forth, long, droning, subject to interpretation, her utter fear of losing residence (she is fine with joint decisions), etc. It appears that unless both parties agree from the very start on residence and 100% joint, the court will make your life hell and someone will lose big time. It seems like an awfully long process that is draining on the parents and is not in the best interest of the child.
And seeing he will not be agreeable, she's dreading being dragged through the system, forced to deal with all this bullshit, when from the very beginning she's been telling him "look, we both are miserable (he admits it too), we both don't get along. Let's divorce and have a schedule similar to what we have now. It's more stable for him to live in my residence, and let's focus on the child".
Funny how she is the one who will be punished when she's reasonable.
He's 1.5 years old. He doesn't deserve any of this b.s.
posted by stormpooper at 8:25 AM on June 4, 2010
And after reading all of that, this is why she's delaying things. It's all one big fight, back and forth, long, droning, subject to interpretation, her utter fear of losing residence (she is fine with joint decisions), etc. It appears that unless both parties agree from the very start on residence and 100% joint, the court will make your life hell and someone will lose big time. It seems like an awfully long process that is draining on the parents and is not in the best interest of the child.
And seeing he will not be agreeable, she's dreading being dragged through the system, forced to deal with all this bullshit, when from the very beginning she's been telling him "look, we both are miserable (he admits it too), we both don't get along. Let's divorce and have a schedule similar to what we have now. It's more stable for him to live in my residence, and let's focus on the child".
Funny how she is the one who will be punished when she's reasonable.
He's 1.5 years old. He doesn't deserve any of this b.s.
posted by stormpooper at 8:25 AM on June 4, 2010
It seems like the problem is poor communication between the parents. He tends to berate her for hours on end and she tends to shut down and avoid the discussion. Could they try set limits on how they discuss their issues? Like (beyond don't argue in front of the boy) agreeing ahead of time to stop after an hour and that each person will get uninterrupted turns for making their point? There's been a lot of discussion about therapy for her, but little to none about marriage counseling for both. Have they tried talking over their issues with an objective 3rd party? If not, are either or both willing to entertain the idea?
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 8:29 AM on June 4, 2010
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 8:29 AM on June 4, 2010
Thanks for rewriting that misleading stat, hosted. (I hate inaccurate research summaries.)
stormpooper, in reading about all this, it does look like there are lawyers and nonprofit groups out there who might really be able to help. Maybe you could help her find one?
posted by salvia at 8:30 AM on June 4, 2010
stormpooper, in reading about all this, it does look like there are lawyers and nonprofit groups out there who might really be able to help. Maybe you could help her find one?
posted by salvia at 8:30 AM on June 4, 2010
The DV websites I've been reading say that in cases of abuse, couples counseling is likely not a good idea.
posted by salvia at 8:41 AM on June 4, 2010
posted by salvia at 8:41 AM on June 4, 2010
Response by poster: @Uranus---yes. He went a handful of times where it was a total "fix her, it's all her fault" session. The counselor said nothing to stop it or say "well what do you do". He now has resorted to call our mutual friend and say that she's "unbalance". The friend, who is a lawyer too, said "well the marriage is so far gone, either get in counceling or end it." He said nothing. She refused to participate in his "someone get on my side and be against her" argument.
She mentioned counceling again. He told her to find it and set it up. After thinking on how manipulative and baradding he gets and one of her lawyers said don't--he'll use it against you--she never persued it.
Agreed on the severe communication problem. But he has said all through the marriage, he's fine, it's all her and she is the one who needs to change. She's tired of it. If he was reasonable to go "well honestly, yea I do have issues" then she would persue it. But seeing it's a finger pointing game, she's just tired of trying to fix things.
If it was just between the two of them, she would have left--probably 2 years ago. But with the child and all the hassle the courts can provide, she's done but scared.
posted by stormpooper at 8:42 AM on June 4, 2010
She mentioned counceling again. He told her to find it and set it up. After thinking on how manipulative and baradding he gets and one of her lawyers said don't--he'll use it against you--she never persued it.
Agreed on the severe communication problem. But he has said all through the marriage, he's fine, it's all her and she is the one who needs to change. She's tired of it. If he was reasonable to go "well honestly, yea I do have issues" then she would persue it. But seeing it's a finger pointing game, she's just tired of trying to fix things.
If it was just between the two of them, she would have left--probably 2 years ago. But with the child and all the hassle the courts can provide, she's done but scared.
posted by stormpooper at 8:42 AM on June 4, 2010
I just want to speak from the point of view of a child that grew up with an angry father, who yelled and went on tirades but never escalated to physical abuse even like punching doors: I wish my mother had divorced him. It was completely toxic to my childhood, even when the anger was just directed at my mother and not at me and my sibling (which, of course, it eventually was).
Don't let a child grow up in that environment. I can't even begin to list all the ways it affected my self worth, my view of relationships, my views of men and how they should act. If the kid could talk, I'm sure it would be happier to have two separated parents than ones interacting like these two do.
My inner 2 year old says: please. Please divorce.
posted by emyd at 8:49 AM on June 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
Don't let a child grow up in that environment. I can't even begin to list all the ways it affected my self worth, my view of relationships, my views of men and how they should act. If the kid could talk, I'm sure it would be happier to have two separated parents than ones interacting like these two do.
My inner 2 year old says: please. Please divorce.
posted by emyd at 8:49 AM on June 4, 2010 [1 favorite]
If I were in her shoes, I wouldn't think about what the future would hold in terms of evidence and custody, I would get out.
posted by k8t at 8:57 AM on June 4, 2010
posted by k8t at 8:57 AM on June 4, 2010
I grew up with an angry father. When I was young, I remember him pinning my brother up against the wall and threatening him; by the time I was nine, it was me. My mother went out, he'd find a misdemeanour to fixate on, and I would be on the receiving end of tirades, often verbally abusive, often physically abusive, often involving breaking my possessions or kicking holes in the door (a wood-effect sticker was put over it and nobody mentioned it until it got replaced). I get frequent headaches now as does my brother, and I wonder whether there is a connection. The emotional abuse was worse - I have very low self-esteem from years of being told how much of an embarrassment and a disappointment I was and how everything I thoiught was wrong, from having my phone-calls and conversations listened in to, from being denied the ability to exercise choice. He belittled and prevented my mother from expressing her opinions or feelings (they once stopped speaking for six months after she spoke back to him when he yelled at her as he yelled at me - he refused to even be in the same room as her, ate takeaway food upstairs and threw the rubbish out the window rather than come into contact with her), but he was only violent with me, and I would wonder why. I was desperate for other people to know what he was like and not the nice guy he seemed; for my parents to divorce; to run away (I didn;t, because I wasn't sure what else would happen); for the heart attack he had when I was fourteen (which he blamed me for, because I didn't tidy my room enough) to make him not come back from the hospital. I don't know what happened to make him start behaving that way with me (he was great until I was nine) and I can honestly say it fucked up my life for a very long time and I sometimes still hear thatvoice in my head when I have to argue with someone, give a presentation, or when I wake up early in the morning after a bad dream.
He's now dead and I'm not comfortable writing down just how I feel about that. It's now Father's Day in the UK and every shop window and advert reminds me that I don't have one, and when I did, he wasn't 'No 1 Dad'.
Please help your friend leave.
posted by mippy at 4:39 PM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
He's now dead and I'm not comfortable writing down just how I feel about that. It's now Father's Day in the UK and every shop window and advert reminds me that I don't have one, and when I did, he wasn't 'No 1 Dad'.
Please help your friend leave.
posted by mippy at 4:39 PM on June 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Her only, ONLY chance of getting that kid any sort of non-abusive childhood is to get the hell out. It won't get any better. It won't go away. Even if she (HIGHLY unlikely) loses full custody, she is unlikely to fully lose custody, and at least she'll save her son from that toxic environment some of the time.
posted by Quadlex at 10:31 PM on June 16, 2010
posted by Quadlex at 10:31 PM on June 16, 2010
« Older Good: vacation in Israel. Bad: driving in Tel Aviv... | IT Certification for a recent MLIS grad? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by stormpooper at 1:14 PM on June 3, 2010