US Border Control Screening - WTF
June 1, 2010 3:17 PM Subscribe
I got pulled aside for secondary screening by immigration at JFK last week as a US citizen and think the government has overstepped its bounds. What can I do?
I was shunted aside to a secondary screening station when I arrived at Immigration after the initial passport control. I was thrown in with a large group of non-white (mostly South Asian/Middle Eastern Looking) men, all of whom seemed to be holding US passports and had to speak with a border patrol officer. He proceeded to ask me several questions - none of which seemed pertinent to my travels (occupation, education level, place of birth, etc) it just seemed like a massive data gathering expedition. I was freaked out about it so I can't imagine what the rest of group felt like. This was not a customs checkpoint - I didn't even have my bags with me. Questions:
If I had refused to answer their questions can they legally refuse me entry? How difficult can they make life for me? (Bear in mind my personal background is as clean as clean can get - they could have dug for months - I don't do anything even remotely illegal except speed - no tax evasion, nothing)
Why were they asking me these questions and who do I complain about this to? What's the best way to get involved in fighting this sort of creeping invasion of privacy?
I feel more and more angry I didn't refuse to answer their questions the more I think about it. At the time I didn't think twice about it, but if people like me who have nothing to hide aren't willing to stand up to this sort of thing then it becomes more and more socially acceptable.
I was shunted aside to a secondary screening station when I arrived at Immigration after the initial passport control. I was thrown in with a large group of non-white (mostly South Asian/Middle Eastern Looking) men, all of whom seemed to be holding US passports and had to speak with a border patrol officer. He proceeded to ask me several questions - none of which seemed pertinent to my travels (occupation, education level, place of birth, etc) it just seemed like a massive data gathering expedition. I was freaked out about it so I can't imagine what the rest of group felt like. This was not a customs checkpoint - I didn't even have my bags with me. Questions:
If I had refused to answer their questions can they legally refuse me entry? How difficult can they make life for me? (Bear in mind my personal background is as clean as clean can get - they could have dug for months - I don't do anything even remotely illegal except speed - no tax evasion, nothing)
Why were they asking me these questions and who do I complain about this to? What's the best way to get involved in fighting this sort of creeping invasion of privacy?
I feel more and more angry I didn't refuse to answer their questions the more I think about it. At the time I didn't think twice about it, but if people like me who have nothing to hide aren't willing to stand up to this sort of thing then it becomes more and more socially acceptable.
Find out which agency they worked for, and look for a complaints line, or an OIG kind of office.
But, while I agree that the borders should be free, right now they aren't. And they are tasked with making sure people who come into the country are who they say they are.
"He proceeded to ask me several questions - none of which seemed pertinent to my travels (occupation, education level, place of birth, etc) it just seemed like a massive data gathering expedition.
[...]
creeping invasion of privacy?"
All of that stuff is not private information. Annoying and unnerving, yes. But not an invasion of privacy or data gathering.
FAR more likely is that they are routine questions they ask in order to determine if someone is acting suspiciously. It isn't a nice tool, but it works very well. Everyone has a stress point. So they ask questions until you get stressed. If you flip out on "so, what do you do for a living", you are on a bit of a hair trigger and they might want to figure out why. Same thing if you are stone cold steady, no matter what they ask.
"...remotely illegal except speed..."
No offense, but... maybe someone ratted you out? Maybe you looked speedy or strung out, and thus nervous and/or suspicious.
posted by gjc at 3:30 PM on June 1, 2010
But, while I agree that the borders should be free, right now they aren't. And they are tasked with making sure people who come into the country are who they say they are.
"He proceeded to ask me several questions - none of which seemed pertinent to my travels (occupation, education level, place of birth, etc) it just seemed like a massive data gathering expedition.
[...]
creeping invasion of privacy?"
All of that stuff is not private information. Annoying and unnerving, yes. But not an invasion of privacy or data gathering.
FAR more likely is that they are routine questions they ask in order to determine if someone is acting suspiciously. It isn't a nice tool, but it works very well. Everyone has a stress point. So they ask questions until you get stressed. If you flip out on "so, what do you do for a living", you are on a bit of a hair trigger and they might want to figure out why. Same thing if you are stone cold steady, no matter what they ask.
"...remotely illegal except speed..."
No offense, but... maybe someone ratted you out? Maybe you looked speedy or strung out, and thus nervous and/or suspicious.
posted by gjc at 3:30 PM on June 1, 2010
I'm sorry this happened. You might want to get in touch with your local branch of the ACLU.
do anything even remotely illegal except speed
It took me a minute to realize you meant speeding in your car. Ha ha.
posted by drjimmy11 at 3:30 PM on June 1, 2010 [9 favorites]
do anything even remotely illegal except speed
It took me a minute to realize you meant speeding in your car. Ha ha.
posted by drjimmy11 at 3:30 PM on June 1, 2010 [9 favorites]
I can't speak to the legality of what they did, but it looks like you can file a complaint with DHS TRIP.
I filed a complaint with Customs and Border Protection last year when a customs officer hassled me about something I could legally bring back into the country. They were reasonably responsive. I have no experience with DHS complaints though.
posted by cabingirl at 3:30 PM on June 1, 2010
I filed a complaint with Customs and Border Protection last year when a customs officer hassled me about something I could legally bring back into the country. They were reasonably responsive. I have no experience with DHS complaints though.
posted by cabingirl at 3:30 PM on June 1, 2010
I agree with griphus. It's good that you didn't make a stink then. That's just a good way to get into lots of trouble.
Now that you're through it is the time to raise the fuss. I don't know how to help you, but I hope you are able to do something about it.
posted by TooFewShoes at 3:31 PM on June 1, 2010
Now that you're through it is the time to raise the fuss. I don't know how to help you, but I hope you are able to do something about it.
posted by TooFewShoes at 3:31 PM on June 1, 2010
The government already knows your occupation, your education level, and your place of birth; they have no need to go on a "data gathering expedition" for information which you filled out on your passport application and tax forms. This has zero to do with the PATRIOT act and everything to do with what seems to be a misunderstanding about what expectations you had upon re-entering the country.
There are plenty of good civil liberties to be out there fighting for, but not being subject to routine questions during border crossings is not one of them. I literally don't understand what there is to complain or be upset about -- you are subject to an increased level of scrutiny when crossing international boundaries, and this shouldn't come as a surprise. Any complaints are likely to be met with a general response of "Okay, that happened, but what is the problem?"
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:35 PM on June 1, 2010 [10 favorites]
There are plenty of good civil liberties to be out there fighting for, but not being subject to routine questions during border crossings is not one of them. I literally don't understand what there is to complain or be upset about -- you are subject to an increased level of scrutiny when crossing international boundaries, and this shouldn't come as a surprise. Any complaints are likely to be met with a general response of "Okay, that happened, but what is the problem?"
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:35 PM on June 1, 2010 [10 favorites]
No offense, but... maybe someone ratted you out? Maybe you looked speedy or strung out, and thus nervous and/or suspicious.
I think OP means in their car.
posted by advil at 3:36 PM on June 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think OP means in their car.
posted by advil at 3:36 PM on June 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
They asked you standard questions that occur on a standard Census form or information already on your Passport? They already have all that information. They're asking you to make sure that you have an answer and that it matches if they have one in their system.
If they have reason to doubt who you say you are because you are seemingly unable to answer some pretty basic questions that the real JPD should answer, ICE could detain you for while to make sure you are who you presume to be.
If it was some heavy interrogation, I'd maybe contact the ACLU, but routine questions that you get asked crossing via car from Canada to USA? My outrage level is at Code Blue.
posted by yeti at 3:38 PM on June 1, 2010
If they have reason to doubt who you say you are because you are seemingly unable to answer some pretty basic questions that the real JPD should answer, ICE could detain you for while to make sure you are who you presume to be.
If it was some heavy interrogation, I'd maybe contact the ACLU, but routine questions that you get asked crossing via car from Canada to USA? My outrage level is at Code Blue.
posted by yeti at 3:38 PM on June 1, 2010
Response by poster: Heh yeah in my car. Not speed the drug.
The inanity of the questions is immaterial. That's my point. When you just brush them off as inane you are going one more step down the road to allowing more intrusive questions being asked. I also found it really really galling that they were clearly profiling people and then throwing in a random white dude to keep it kosher.
But my real question is can they refuse me entry into my own country if I refuse to cooperate?
posted by JPD at 3:53 PM on June 1, 2010
The inanity of the questions is immaterial. That's my point. When you just brush them off as inane you are going one more step down the road to allowing more intrusive questions being asked. I also found it really really galling that they were clearly profiling people and then throwing in a random white dude to keep it kosher.
But my real question is can they refuse me entry into my own country if I refuse to cooperate?
posted by JPD at 3:53 PM on June 1, 2010
I was thrown in with a large group of non-white (mostly South Asian/Middle Eastern Looking) men,
By which I am assuming that you are likely a white male, or possibly white female
Could be they're tossing you in the mix so they can show anyone who asks that they are not profiling racially. As to the Bigger Picture, well, once a government starts a Big Picture kind of operation, they have to find ways to fill the budget. This sounds likes one such line item.
Try your congressional rep. That's why we elect them.
Updates welcome, by the way.
posted by IndigoJones at 3:55 PM on June 1, 2010
By which I am assuming that you are likely a white male, or possibly white female
Could be they're tossing you in the mix so they can show anyone who asks that they are not profiling racially. As to the Bigger Picture, well, once a government starts a Big Picture kind of operation, they have to find ways to fill the budget. This sounds likes one such line item.
Try your congressional rep. That's why we elect them.
Updates welcome, by the way.
posted by IndigoJones at 3:55 PM on June 1, 2010
Response by poster: you are subject to an increased level of scrutiny when crossing international boundaries Of course - if I were entering into a foreign country I'd smile and be polite and answer the questions asked - but here's the thing - I was entering my own country
posted by JPD at 3:55 PM on June 1, 2010
posted by JPD at 3:55 PM on June 1, 2010
As someone who has also been pulled aside in the past, I agree with yeti and 0xFCAF. They are simply checking to see that you are who you claim you are, and not someone else traveling under a fake passport, or suspicious circumstances.
Some of those questions already have the answers in their database, so they can check to see if you are who you are. Others are designed to put you under psychological stress, so that if you are hiding something or acting as someone else, they can get a sign to indicate that they should dig further.
As much as I hate being grilled at the border, knowing how hard their job is, I tend to cut them some slack, although I am pissed off every time it happens. Last time I was coming back from a conference I organized, and the officer insisted that I produce something that proves I was affiliated with the conference (that I organized or attended the conference). Obviously, we had shipped everything back, I was traveling back light and had absolutely nothing with me to show him. When I told him this he asked whether I didn't even have a business card. I didn't (I had given all of them out) but a business card which would have not proved I was affiliated with the specific conference anyways. He gave up that line of interrogation once I pointed that out to him.
posted by tuxster at 3:56 PM on June 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
Some of those questions already have the answers in their database, so they can check to see if you are who you are. Others are designed to put you under psychological stress, so that if you are hiding something or acting as someone else, they can get a sign to indicate that they should dig further.
As much as I hate being grilled at the border, knowing how hard their job is, I tend to cut them some slack, although I am pissed off every time it happens. Last time I was coming back from a conference I organized, and the officer insisted that I produce something that proves I was affiliated with the conference (that I organized or attended the conference). Obviously, we had shipped everything back, I was traveling back light and had absolutely nothing with me to show him. When I told him this he asked whether I didn't even have a business card. I didn't (I had given all of them out) but a business card which would have not proved I was affiliated with the specific conference anyways. He gave up that line of interrogation once I pointed that out to him.
posted by tuxster at 3:56 PM on June 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
here's the thing - I was entering my own country
They don't know that until they've verified you are who you say you are, now do they?
posted by kindall at 3:58 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
They don't know that until they've verified you are who you say you are, now do they?
posted by kindall at 3:58 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
if I were entering into a foreign country I'd smile and be polite and answer the questions asked - but here's the thing - I was entering my own country
That's just a catch-22 for border enforcement - how do they know it's your country until they ask you questions that verify your identity? The basic questions are there to verify you're the person you claim to be on your passport. Requiring officers to only ask questions of people who aren't who they claim to be is begging the question.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:58 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
That's just a catch-22 for border enforcement - how do they know it's your country until they ask you questions that verify your identity? The basic questions are there to verify you're the person you claim to be on your passport. Requiring officers to only ask questions of people who aren't who they claim to be is begging the question.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:58 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
But my real question is can they refuse me entry into my own country if I refuse to cooperate?
Yes, inasmuch as they could have easily found a legal reason to detain you. It's an airport. More or less every right you think you have is suspended on airport grounds, like it or not. Feel free to agitate for reform -- plenty of other people are -- but recognize that huge chunks of this country seem to think anyone entering/exiting should be violated in every possible way. At this point in history, I count myself fortunate that I'm permitted to remain clothed.
No, I'm not kidding.
posted by aramaic at 4:03 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yes, inasmuch as they could have easily found a legal reason to detain you. It's an airport. More or less every right you think you have is suspended on airport grounds, like it or not. Feel free to agitate for reform -- plenty of other people are -- but recognize that huge chunks of this country seem to think anyone entering/exiting should be violated in every possible way. At this point in history, I count myself fortunate that I'm permitted to remain clothed.
No, I'm not kidding.
posted by aramaic at 4:03 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
They asked you standard questions that occur on a standard Census form or information already on your Passport? They already have all that information. They're asking you to make sure that you have an answer and that it matches if they have one in their system.
US passports do not have occupation or education levels on them. And if by They you mean the US government, well, remember, we have so fragmented a bureaucracy that even now the intelligence agencies cannot talk to each other. I seriously doubt that the INS or ICE have a finger in the Census department records (assuming that 2000 records are of any use, or that 2010 have been collated yet). Not even sure it would be legal for them to do so, FWIW.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:03 PM on June 1, 2010
US passports do not have occupation or education levels on them. And if by They you mean the US government, well, remember, we have so fragmented a bureaucracy that even now the intelligence agencies cannot talk to each other. I seriously doubt that the INS or ICE have a finger in the Census department records (assuming that 2000 records are of any use, or that 2010 have been collated yet). Not even sure it would be legal for them to do so, FWIW.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:03 PM on June 1, 2010
Perhaps they were trying to see if you were hinky (Bruce Schneier's blog).
posted by neuron at 4:16 PM on June 1, 2010
posted by neuron at 4:16 PM on June 1, 2010
I'm only making wild guesses here, but I'm wondering if they asked your occupation and education level not for the information itself, but for how you phrased your responses in order to make sure you were who your passport says you are, a native-born USA citizen. For example, if you had said "grade 12" instead of "12th grade" for your educational level, that would raise a red flag. They're looking for standard colloquialisms and speech patterns. I was pulled aside for further screening when coming back to the US from Canada via the Windsor Tunnel simply because I'd ended a sentence with "eh?" (I found this out by asking the screener why I was being detained. I'd been in Ontario for a week, and apparently the speech pattern was contagious.)
posted by Oriole Adams at 4:18 PM on June 1, 2010
posted by Oriole Adams at 4:18 PM on June 1, 2010
... I didn't even have my bags with me.
ding ding ding. if you were traveling without luggage, that's a HUGE red flag for tsa.
when these things happen to you, answer their questions and let it go. you're fighting a losing battle. (and there's nothing here to indicate that they did anything untoward, only that you're p.o.'d about being questioned.)
posted by msconduct at 4:25 PM on June 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
ding ding ding. if you were traveling without luggage, that's a HUGE red flag for tsa.
when these things happen to you, answer their questions and let it go. you're fighting a losing battle. (and there's nothing here to indicate that they did anything untoward, only that you're p.o.'d about being questioned.)
posted by msconduct at 4:25 PM on June 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
but for how you phrased your responses in order to make sure you were who your passport says you are, a native-born USA citizen. For example, if you had said "grade 12" instead of "12th grade" for your educational level, that would raise a red flag.
Border Control personnel are not this smart, sorry.
posted by dfriedman at 4:30 PM on June 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
Border Control personnel are not this smart, sorry.
posted by dfriedman at 4:30 PM on June 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
You might look like someone they're looking for, or have a similar name. An acquaintance of mine was strip searched because she looked a lot like a known terrorist, and she's a Coptic Catholic (not a Muslim in a burka) and was just 15 at the time.
It utterly and completely sucks to have been in your position, but the Homeland Security officers were probably within the bounds that the laws allow them.
posted by Neekee at 4:33 PM on June 1, 2010
It utterly and completely sucks to have been in your position, but the Homeland Security officers were probably within the bounds that the laws allow them.
posted by Neekee at 4:33 PM on June 1, 2010
Can they refuse me entry into my own country if I refuse to coooperate?
Well, yeah, if they're not reasonably satisfied that it is in fact your own country.
I don't mean to be glib, but what do you propose as an alternative? A national registry with matching tattooed bar codes on all citizens? Taking everyone's word for it?
As a frequent border crosser (and with no wealth of affection for DHS/ICE), I understand your frustration but it doesn't seem to me like they were doing anything beyond the scope of their authority or really out of the ordinary.
It's an inconvenience and feels like an invasion to be sure, but like going through security checks and any other host of things we put up with, it's a trade off in the interest of something that is generally regarded to be a greater good (in this case, national security). Based on what you've written, it sounds like your issue is with the administrative policies themselves, not with failure to adhere to them.
I also can't help but point out that many U.S. citizens - like the ones you were detained with - put up with worse, way more frequently. Just to put things in perspective...
posted by AV at 4:34 PM on June 1, 2010 [7 favorites]
Well, yeah, if they're not reasonably satisfied that it is in fact your own country.
I don't mean to be glib, but what do you propose as an alternative? A national registry with matching tattooed bar codes on all citizens? Taking everyone's word for it?
As a frequent border crosser (and with no wealth of affection for DHS/ICE), I understand your frustration but it doesn't seem to me like they were doing anything beyond the scope of their authority or really out of the ordinary.
It's an inconvenience and feels like an invasion to be sure, but like going through security checks and any other host of things we put up with, it's a trade off in the interest of something that is generally regarded to be a greater good (in this case, national security). Based on what you've written, it sounds like your issue is with the administrative policies themselves, not with failure to adhere to them.
I also can't help but point out that many U.S. citizens - like the ones you were detained with - put up with worse, way more frequently. Just to put things in perspective...
posted by AV at 4:34 PM on June 1, 2010 [7 favorites]
I was thrown in with a large group of non-white (mostly South Asian/Middle Eastern Looking) men, all of whom seemed to be holding US passports and had to speak with a border patrol officer.
I can imagine the indignity you felt in being grouped with non-white fellow citizens!
It's unfortunate that we all have to take our shoes off now and then to pass through the screening machine. C'est la vie.
My own parents were killed by terrorists; consequently I'm pretty understandably anti-terrorism. I've worked for a US Senator, and even made it to America via the direct intervention of the standing president at the time. I worked hard to earn my citizenship, graduate from college and pay off all my loans, earn a great living and pay all my taxes. So my credentials are all great.
But still - presumably because I'm nominally Muslim - I get pulled out of line and searched and questioned about 80% of the times I board a plane, which is many times a year. I'd be willing to risk air travel without any of this bullshit, but it's what the American people called for, I suppose. Where were you when all this was enacted years ago? Do you think that random checks and questions (none of which seem to have actually done you any damage) are appropriate for non-whites only?
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 4:34 PM on June 1, 2010 [25 favorites]
I can imagine the indignity you felt in being grouped with non-white fellow citizens!
It's unfortunate that we all have to take our shoes off now and then to pass through the screening machine. C'est la vie.
My own parents were killed by terrorists; consequently I'm pretty understandably anti-terrorism. I've worked for a US Senator, and even made it to America via the direct intervention of the standing president at the time. I worked hard to earn my citizenship, graduate from college and pay off all my loans, earn a great living and pay all my taxes. So my credentials are all great.
But still - presumably because I'm nominally Muslim - I get pulled out of line and searched and questioned about 80% of the times I board a plane, which is many times a year. I'd be willing to risk air travel without any of this bullshit, but it's what the American people called for, I suppose. Where were you when all this was enacted years ago? Do you think that random checks and questions (none of which seem to have actually done you any damage) are appropriate for non-whites only?
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 4:34 PM on June 1, 2010 [25 favorites]
ding ding ding. if you were traveling without luggage, that's a HUGE red flag for tsa.
Immigration/Border patrol in the US is before getting your luggage.
posted by Neekee at 4:36 PM on June 1, 2010
Immigration/Border patrol in the US is before getting your luggage.
posted by Neekee at 4:36 PM on June 1, 2010
ding ding ding. if you were traveling without luggage, that's a HUGE red flag for tsa.
You pick up your bags after passing through immigration.
posted by elizardbits at 4:39 PM on June 1, 2010
You pick up your bags after passing through immigration.
posted by elizardbits at 4:39 PM on June 1, 2010
JPD writes "But my real question is can they refuse me entry into my own country if I refuse to cooperate?"
If you don't satisfy them as to your identity? Yes.
posted by Mitheral at 4:47 PM on June 1, 2010
If you don't satisfy them as to your identity? Yes.
posted by Mitheral at 4:47 PM on June 1, 2010
This may sound way out of line but what if you just accept the fact that there are inconveniences that some will suffer to protect people and that in the sweep, not intended specifically against you, you got caught up and thus inconvenienced. Imagine if they just let every one alone and bothered no one. Then when something bad happened, what would you say? They should be more careful?
posted by Postroad at 4:49 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 4:49 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
Last month I had to fly without identification, so I did a lot of research about processes for doing so. Apparently for people flying without ID, they will sometimes ask you a bunch of questions and then check your answers with the Scary Big Brother DHS Supercomputer That Knows All. I didn't have this happen to me* (I'm a white female, shocker), but there was a guy ahead of me who did. They asked him a bunch of questions, disappeared for a while and came back and said he was ok. Who knows if they actually checked on his answers, but they at least appeared to.
Now I know your case is different, but it may be the same procedure.
If I were in your position, I would definitely lodge complaints with the DHS TRIP, linked above. If you want to escalate a notch, consider contacting your representative and/or the local ACLU, but don't expect too much to come of either. Although this was doubtlessly a scary and annoying experience, it doesn't seem like there was much concrete harm done to you - the information they collected is easily accessible in public records, you didn't miss your flight and there was no physical harm.
I'm not trying to be flip - a few years ago I was harassed by a Customs officer who definitely overstepped his bounds and did so just to get some kicks (I know because when I offered to let him search my bag for the drugs he insisted I had on my person, he completely backed off). It definitely freaked me out and left me shook up for a few days. So I feel you. Think about how much it would suck to be one of the many people falsely on a no-fly list!
If you want to do something about this, I'd recommend getting involved in a civil liberties group like the ACLU. Getting involved will help you get over the feelings of helplessness an incident like this provokes and turn it into something that got you active on these issues.
*Totall O/T, but for those of you who ever have to fly without your ID because your wallet was stolen: get a copy of the police report! This saved me so much hassle. I also had a copy of my stolen drivers license and that seemed to help, too. The more you know!
posted by lunasol at 4:52 PM on June 1, 2010
Now I know your case is different, but it may be the same procedure.
If I were in your position, I would definitely lodge complaints with the DHS TRIP, linked above. If you want to escalate a notch, consider contacting your representative and/or the local ACLU, but don't expect too much to come of either. Although this was doubtlessly a scary and annoying experience, it doesn't seem like there was much concrete harm done to you - the information they collected is easily accessible in public records, you didn't miss your flight and there was no physical harm.
I'm not trying to be flip - a few years ago I was harassed by a Customs officer who definitely overstepped his bounds and did so just to get some kicks (I know because when I offered to let him search my bag for the drugs he insisted I had on my person, he completely backed off). It definitely freaked me out and left me shook up for a few days. So I feel you. Think about how much it would suck to be one of the many people falsely on a no-fly list!
If you want to do something about this, I'd recommend getting involved in a civil liberties group like the ACLU. Getting involved will help you get over the feelings of helplessness an incident like this provokes and turn it into something that got you active on these issues.
*Totall O/T, but for those of you who ever have to fly without your ID because your wallet was stolen: get a copy of the police report! This saved me so much hassle. I also had a copy of my stolen drivers license and that seemed to help, too. The more you know!
posted by lunasol at 4:52 PM on June 1, 2010
I would definitely lodge complaints with the DHS TRIP
I just want to clarify: I don't think this will result in any policy changes. However, it will probably make you feel better.
posted by lunasol at 4:56 PM on June 1, 2010
I just want to clarify: I don't think this will result in any policy changes. However, it will probably make you feel better.
posted by lunasol at 4:56 PM on June 1, 2010
My younger daughter was flagged once when we were going from the US to London, she was 2. They took her to a separate area (I was allowed to escort her!) wanded her, went through her carry on. It was clear the whole time that everyone involved thought that it was really silly that a 2 year old had been flagged for an extra check out. However- this is what happens post 9/11, and there are some sick folks who wouldn't put it past someone to use a child as a front for a terrorist attack. Long story, longer- it was a pain and annoying and totally scary for my daughter, but we got on the plane and went home to London and we moved on.
posted by momochan at 5:01 PM on June 1, 2010
posted by momochan at 5:01 PM on June 1, 2010
Patriot Act or not, belligerence is never the appropriate stance to take at an airport if you hope to get to your destination as planned.
I don't mean that flippantly. TSA personnel are not the government. They are low-paid functionaries trying to do their jobs by following rules already laid out for them.
Do we sometimes get attitude from them? Yes, of course we do. For a host of reasons. But before you demand something better, try to imagine what your taxes will be to pay for same.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 5:23 PM on June 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't mean that flippantly. TSA personnel are not the government. They are low-paid functionaries trying to do their jobs by following rules already laid out for them.
Do we sometimes get attitude from them? Yes, of course we do. For a host of reasons. But before you demand something better, try to imagine what your taxes will be to pay for same.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 5:23 PM on June 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
Not an expert, but I think you're blowing it a little out of proportion. It sounds like it was unnerving, and an inconvenience but within normal security procedures.
According to the TSA page, they just upped security checks starting on April 2nd:
Q. What changes can the traveling public expect? What can passengers traveling on flights to the U.S. from international destinations expect?
A. On any given day, passengers traveling on flights to the U.S. from international destinations may notice enhanced, random security measures throughout the passenger check-in and boarding process. Aviation security is a shared responsibility and countries around the world are working together to increase the safety of air travel. Passengers traveling on flights to the U.S. from international last point of departure destinations are likely to notice enhanced measures including the increased use of the technology and processes such as explosives trace detection, canine teams, advanced imaging technology, and behavior detection among other measures.
It doesn't sound from your post that at any time the officials were acting unprofessional. (i.e. the incident at Heathrow where security was caught ogling a passenger's breasts)
It may have been unpleasant, but it doesn't sound like security did anything wrong.
posted by Caravantea at 5:35 PM on June 1, 2010
According to the TSA page, they just upped security checks starting on April 2nd:
Q. What changes can the traveling public expect? What can passengers traveling on flights to the U.S. from international destinations expect?
A. On any given day, passengers traveling on flights to the U.S. from international destinations may notice enhanced, random security measures throughout the passenger check-in and boarding process. Aviation security is a shared responsibility and countries around the world are working together to increase the safety of air travel. Passengers traveling on flights to the U.S. from international last point of departure destinations are likely to notice enhanced measures including the increased use of the technology and processes such as explosives trace detection, canine teams, advanced imaging technology, and behavior detection among other measures.
It doesn't sound from your post that at any time the officials were acting unprofessional. (i.e. the incident at Heathrow where security was caught ogling a passenger's breasts)
It may have been unpleasant, but it doesn't sound like security did anything wrong.
posted by Caravantea at 5:35 PM on June 1, 2010
I'm Canadian so ymmv but I get pulled aside every time I enter Canada because my name matches the name of someone who did something to piss somebody off. This also means I have to get a more detailed fingerprinting when I have to get my criminal record checks done for work.
posted by Abbril at 5:36 PM on June 1, 2010
posted by Abbril at 5:36 PM on June 1, 2010
Yes. They can refuse you entry.
US Citizen or not.
Slightly different circumstances, but you get the idea.
posted by FlamingBore at 5:38 PM on June 1, 2010
US Citizen or not.
Slightly different circumstances, but you get the idea.
posted by FlamingBore at 5:38 PM on June 1, 2010
You can complain, but it sounds like what you're mad about is pretty standard procedure, so unless enough people complain that they decide to change TSA/ICE policy, I'm not so sure it's worth the effort. I personally wouldn't be so offended about those questions. They don't sound very intrusive, and your point about if you allow those, you're going to end up allowing worse ones doesn't really stand up. I prefer to complain about things that I think are wrong, not things that are inane but could maybe lead up to them doing something that I think is wrong. Saves effort that way. Picking battles, etc. They RANDOMLY select people, as well as select people who may match someone on a list or be suspicious for whatever valid or invalid reason. There are people on watch lists and whatnot who are white, so you might have the same name as someone, or it might have just been your turn, sorry.
posted by ishotjr at 5:50 PM on June 1, 2010
posted by ishotjr at 5:50 PM on June 1, 2010
Mod note: few comments removed - this is not where you go to complain about security theater this is where you answer the question.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:55 PM on June 1, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:55 PM on June 1, 2010
The DHS customs personnel has a great deal of authority vested in it by Congress and common law. Such great authority, however, is ultimately vested in ordinary folks some of whom are extremely professional and intelligent, and some who just aren't. It's my impression you have more latitude to be less than civil to a police officer in practice than you do with customs personnel, and the latter have much greater discretionary authority under the law. Be polite. Be patient. After-the-fact complaints notwithstanding, mechanically speaking, these people have us all by the short hairs.
posted by CarsonDyle at 6:04 PM on June 1, 2010
posted by CarsonDyle at 6:04 PM on June 1, 2010
Border Control personnel are not this smart, sorry
No, many of them are smart and hard working, even though we may well disagree with their methods and policies. In this case, asking background questions is a common technique. As Oriole Adams says, if someone claiming to be born and raised in the US answers "Grade 12" instead of "12th Grade," that's a red flag that something may not be right here. I've also heard trick questions like "what kind of grades did you get in recess?" Basically, they are asking you about your background and trying to see if you can keep your story straight and if you have the knowledge someone with that background would have.
The Israelis, by the way, are the masters at this. It often becomes profiling, but it's certainly effective.
posted by zachlipton at 6:13 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
No, many of them are smart and hard working, even though we may well disagree with their methods and policies. In this case, asking background questions is a common technique. As Oriole Adams says, if someone claiming to be born and raised in the US answers "Grade 12" instead of "12th Grade," that's a red flag that something may not be right here. I've also heard trick questions like "what kind of grades did you get in recess?" Basically, they are asking you about your background and trying to see if you can keep your story straight and if you have the knowledge someone with that background would have.
The Israelis, by the way, are the masters at this. It often becomes profiling, but it's certainly effective.
posted by zachlipton at 6:13 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
Plus, the front-line people don't have to be that smart. They can be told at the morning meeting "ok, today's random anti-canadian-terrorism measure is: secondary screening for anyone who says 'Eh?' or has Canadian cigarettes in plain sight." It isn't that hard to remember the one or two things-of-the-day they tell you.
i.e. They're probably not allowed to make this up as they go along or to use too much "discretion". I'm sure some are very smart, and the smart ones could be much more effective that way, but the dumb ones could cause way too much trouble.
posted by ctmf at 8:03 PM on June 1, 2010
i.e. They're probably not allowed to make this up as they go along or to use too much "discretion". I'm sure some are very smart, and the smart ones could be much more effective that way, but the dumb ones could cause way too much trouble.
posted by ctmf at 8:03 PM on June 1, 2010
I don't think answering questions like these is too much to ask before one enters the country. Also, I am a Democrat, but I think you can thank terrorists, not Bush, for these kinds of unfortunate but now necessary security measures.
On the other hand, I don't agree with holding someone for months without charging them... That's crazy.
posted by xammerboy at 8:59 PM on June 1, 2010
On the other hand, I don't agree with holding someone for months without charging them... That's crazy.
posted by xammerboy at 8:59 PM on June 1, 2010
Short anecdote. My wife apparently bears the same exact name as a wanted fugitive. For a few years, EVERY time we re-entered the country, she got flagged for a secondary screening. It sucked, but there was some rationale behind it.
posted by gnutron at 9:22 PM on June 1, 2010
posted by gnutron at 9:22 PM on June 1, 2010
My understanding is that in theory a US citizen cannot be prevented from entering the USA, nor be detained without suspicion of wrongdoing and so forth. In practice, as others have said, they can refuse to admit you until they make sure that you're a citizen, and detain you until then, or detain you until they make sure that you're not importing any contraband. It's unusual for the onus of proof to be reversed like this, but you can see why it's done this way.
The test against which government action is measured is usually whether the action was "reasonable", not whether it was correct in the light of hindsight. I think it would be hard to argue that their actions were unreasonable, although they were certainly annoying and perhaps intimidating. So yes, you can be put into a room while they establish that you're a citizen, and you'll have to wait your turn while they do this. If you had refused to answer their questions I suppose they might have decided you had something to hide - again, not "unreasonable" - which would have affected their conclusion about your nationality and caused further investigations and delays.
Anyway, short answer, their power to detain you while they investigate is genuine and you will have no recourse at the time and probably not much recourse when you get home either. If it cheers you up, contemplate the fact that you ARE a US citizen and that you can't be kept out indefinitely. The same doesn't go for non-US citizens, and I assure you that I am terrified every time I go through US immigration because of the awful stories I've heard.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:24 PM on June 1, 2010
The test against which government action is measured is usually whether the action was "reasonable", not whether it was correct in the light of hindsight. I think it would be hard to argue that their actions were unreasonable, although they were certainly annoying and perhaps intimidating. So yes, you can be put into a room while they establish that you're a citizen, and you'll have to wait your turn while they do this. If you had refused to answer their questions I suppose they might have decided you had something to hide - again, not "unreasonable" - which would have affected their conclusion about your nationality and caused further investigations and delays.
Anyway, short answer, their power to detain you while they investigate is genuine and you will have no recourse at the time and probably not much recourse when you get home either. If it cheers you up, contemplate the fact that you ARE a US citizen and that you can't be kept out indefinitely. The same doesn't go for non-US citizens, and I assure you that I am terrified every time I go through US immigration because of the awful stories I've heard.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:24 PM on June 1, 2010
For example, if you had said "grade 12" instead of "12th grade" for your educational level, that would raise a red flag.
Border Control personnel are not this smart, sorry.
They don't have to be smart just trained! I don't know how often this occurs in the general public but when crossing the border between Mexico and Arizona, I always get stopped and asked these kind of questions - they're looking for phrasing and accents. They're taught to listen for certain things. The BP agent could be cold stone stupid and still have the training to tell that my responses indicate an U.S. reared person.
posted by _paegan_ at 10:25 PM on June 1, 2010
Border Control personnel are not this smart, sorry.
They don't have to be smart just trained! I don't know how often this occurs in the general public but when crossing the border between Mexico and Arizona, I always get stopped and asked these kind of questions - they're looking for phrasing and accents. They're taught to listen for certain things. The BP agent could be cold stone stupid and still have the training to tell that my responses indicate an U.S. reared person.
posted by _paegan_ at 10:25 PM on June 1, 2010
They're just checking out your story and watching how you react to it. I'm guessing they probably stood a little too close to you and looked you right in the eyes as they did it. This is to make you slightly uncomfortable to see how you react to simple, innocuous questions and then make sure they match available facts. I've had them compare my job description with the stuff I had declared on the customs form, which seemed pretty clever at the time, but in no way threatening. If they ask you a simple question ("What was the purpose of your trip") and you don't have a good answer... well ... what would you think if you were in their shoes?
I don't know why being put with a group of people different from you and being asked some publicly available information is so upsetting. You might want to look into that.
posted by Ookseer at 1:08 AM on June 2, 2010
I don't know why being put with a group of people different from you and being asked some publicly available information is so upsetting. You might want to look into that.
posted by Ookseer at 1:08 AM on June 2, 2010
Response by poster: some good answers - a few points
) Dee - I wasn't offended because I was grouped in with brown people - I was offended that it was so obviously a ham handed attempt by the TSA to include a random white dude in with a clearly profiled crowd. If the sample I saw were truly random the relative "brownness" of the crowd would have been immaterial. it was as a term used above said "Security Theatre"
)The agent literally took one look at me and populated his database. He was not paying enough attention to me to see if I was "Nervous " or "Hinky". There was nothing he asked me that you couldn't have found out by Googling my name and finding my linked in account.
posted by JPD at 3:34 AM on June 2, 2010
) Dee - I wasn't offended because I was grouped in with brown people - I was offended that it was so obviously a ham handed attempt by the TSA to include a random white dude in with a clearly profiled crowd. If the sample I saw were truly random the relative "brownness" of the crowd would have been immaterial. it was as a term used above said "Security Theatre"
)The agent literally took one look at me and populated his database. He was not paying enough attention to me to see if I was "Nervous " or "Hinky". There was nothing he asked me that you couldn't have found out by Googling my name and finding my linked in account.
posted by JPD at 3:34 AM on June 2, 2010
Don't sweat it and don't take it personally. It's a sign of the times we live in; more people travel across borders more often. We also live in a world that's more breathless than before; significantly more scrutiny for eff-ups by Immigration than before.
I'm a brown-skinned Indian citizen; I travel international quite frequently, and have been pulled aside countless times in Europe and Asia. I know what questions they'll ask, and because I sometimes fly out on Fridays and fly in on Mondays, I even recognize immigration officers at times. In fact, saying, "Hey, werent you here last Friday? Boy you guys have tough shifts!" is a great way to break the boring routine (although it is not recommended if you don't want additional questions); I like talking to strangers, I welcome interactions with random people. My favourite so far was a certain Turkish immigration officer who, after questioning me intensely in a separate room, proceeded to unload his knowledge of Bollywood songs on me.
US Border Control is a world apart, though; without exception, or perhaps its my cultural biases being exposed here, but all TSA staff I've had the pleasure of interacting with, have behaved as if they're Rambo or something, what with the intense hyper-ventilation, excessive Sir-ing ("Sir, in order to proceed with the process smoothly, we encourage that you co-operate with us Sir") and a ridiculous amount of reliance on technology.
They've given me the massive pat-down thing each time I passed through a US airport, they've taken finger-prints from my mobile, scanned through cameras, emptied my laptop bag. It is clear that it is racial, although not necessarily racist; it's all the same, whether the TSA dude/tte is Black, Hispanic, White, Asian or whatever. Even considering the whole security-theater aspect of it all, they operate under some rather opaque set of rules that are not obvious to us mortals. You can probably lobby/ fight for some change in rules ("Thou shalt not get patted down if thou possesses a latte"), but I don't see how the experience can become normal unless you de-Rambo-ize these mofos. You can't train people to be humans; they'll have to grow into it.
So yeah. Don't sweat it, and don't take it personally.
posted by the cydonian at 4:44 AM on June 2, 2010
I'm a brown-skinned Indian citizen; I travel international quite frequently, and have been pulled aside countless times in Europe and Asia. I know what questions they'll ask, and because I sometimes fly out on Fridays and fly in on Mondays, I even recognize immigration officers at times. In fact, saying, "Hey, werent you here last Friday? Boy you guys have tough shifts!" is a great way to break the boring routine (although it is not recommended if you don't want additional questions); I like talking to strangers, I welcome interactions with random people. My favourite so far was a certain Turkish immigration officer who, after questioning me intensely in a separate room, proceeded to unload his knowledge of Bollywood songs on me.
US Border Control is a world apart, though; without exception, or perhaps its my cultural biases being exposed here, but all TSA staff I've had the pleasure of interacting with, have behaved as if they're Rambo or something, what with the intense hyper-ventilation, excessive Sir-ing ("Sir, in order to proceed with the process smoothly, we encourage that you co-operate with us Sir") and a ridiculous amount of reliance on technology.
They've given me the massive pat-down thing each time I passed through a US airport, they've taken finger-prints from my mobile, scanned through cameras, emptied my laptop bag. It is clear that it is racial, although not necessarily racist; it's all the same, whether the TSA dude/tte is Black, Hispanic, White, Asian or whatever. Even considering the whole security-theater aspect of it all, they operate under some rather opaque set of rules that are not obvious to us mortals. You can probably lobby/ fight for some change in rules ("Thou shalt not get patted down if thou possesses a latte"), but I don't see how the experience can become normal unless you de-Rambo-ize these mofos. You can't train people to be humans; they'll have to grow into it.
So yeah. Don't sweat it, and don't take it personally.
posted by the cydonian at 4:44 AM on June 2, 2010
i'm a middle class while male, and i get this sometimes. it could happen to anyone, and personally i didn't find it unreasonable. america is a target for both terrorist activity as well as loads of illegal immigration, which customs and the border police are obligated to stop. this means they've got to pull people out of the line every once in a while and ask a few extra questions. what's the big deal? it's not like they beat you up or something.
posted by messiahwannabe at 7:46 AM on June 2, 2010
posted by messiahwannabe at 7:46 AM on June 2, 2010
My boyfriend and his father periodically get harassed when crossing borders because they share a name with someone who is wanted in Maryland, as far as we can figure out from the questions they've been asked.
I'm going to the UK with my boyfriend this fall, and we're planning on scheduling in extra time for general harassment.
posted by telophase at 3:46 PM on June 2, 2010
I'm going to the UK with my boyfriend this fall, and we're planning on scheduling in extra time for general harassment.
posted by telophase at 3:46 PM on June 2, 2010
I am a white, nerdy, 40ish Midwestern woman who flies 3 or 4 times a year. In all instances that I can remember in the last year or two, save one, I have been pulled out and wanded.
posted by Prairie at 10:19 AM on June 4, 2010
posted by Prairie at 10:19 AM on June 4, 2010
Yeah, my nephew, who was 3 at the time, was pulled out for extra security checks. At the stage in life when his major power struggle with his mom was over shoes, he had to have them forcibly removed, etc., etc. It happens. The TSA was almost apologetic about it to my sister, if not openly so.
OP, I'm sorry, I know all of this stuff is uncomfortable, but really, that's just the way the system works right now. So they're not breaking any rules or laws, but I would certainly support the proposition that the rules and laws on these issues kind of suck, and merit advocacy for reform.
posted by bardophile at 1:49 PM on August 2, 2010
OP, I'm sorry, I know all of this stuff is uncomfortable, but really, that's just the way the system works right now. So they're not breaking any rules or laws, but I would certainly support the proposition that the rules and laws on these issues kind of suck, and merit advocacy for reform.
posted by bardophile at 1:49 PM on August 2, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
...they could have dug for months...
And that's how long they could've kept you wherever the hell they wanted to keep you. We've got US citizens sitting behind bars all over the country without any rhyme or reason than "suspicion" (thanks PATRIOT Act!)
I know it sucks, but the best you can do is tough it out, get out and then try to do something about it. When you're up against a system which has the ability to jail you without having to go through the judicial branch, it is not the time to be a hero.
posted by griphus at 3:26 PM on June 1, 2010 [2 favorites]