Help me figure out why I seem to be undatable, except when I'm not.
May 23, 2010 6:30 PM   Subscribe

Help me figure out why I seem to be undatable, except when I'm not.

I largely decided that dating was something that just wasn't for me a year ago because I seem to be permanently unsuccessful. The only dates I've been on were with a very confident overachiever who asked me out (not that there is anything wrong with that). I've never been kissed. I used to ask out a few women per year, but universally they were flattered but not interested. In general, I don't think I'm seen as a potential romantic interest. Askme clearly indicates that if your not doing something horribly wrong you ought to be able to at least get a coffee date. So Askme, I'm reconsidering this position of not dating. And I'm really hoping you can figure out where I'm going wrong. The only real clue I have is that I have been told by a friend who isn't intimidated by anyone that she thinks I'm really intimidating.

So about me: I'm a 23 year old undergrad in a very technical field, and have more research experience than many graduate students (intentionally being vague here). I have a great, fun ( at least to me ), very well paying job. I'm currently also working on a very complex startup that is almost to breakeven. (again intentionally being vague). I have one real hobby: ballroom dancing (and I genuinely like it, it's really obvious, and I'm a good lead). I dress well, but I don't go overboard caring for my appearance. I just know how to buy clothes that look good on me. I am not overweight.

I'm moderately introverted, but am capable of talking for hours with someone I just met. I am not an aggro-geek and do not constantly try to one up people. Nor do I try to inflict shop talk on people who arn't interested. For whatever it is worth I think in a very intuitive manner, and am very good at understanding people. Several of my friends have tried repeatedly setting me up with people, but it just never really seems to work out. People I've just met usually seem to assume that I have to have a girlfriend already. I don't really want to just "get a date, any date" and would rather not date then date people for the sake of dating. I'd really like to figure what exactly about my personality is keeping people from seeing me as a potential date. I don't have any real requirements for dating (in the sense of some unrealistic checklist or what not). I don't only want to date technically minded people or some such. I've been to three different therapists who have all told me they had no idea why I was there because there didn't seem to be anything out of the norm with me. Universally my problems seem to be ascribed to bad luck. I believe you make your own luck, so I don't buy this. I realize that I don't ask out that many people, but it really seems like in general that somehow I'm just not seen in that way.

What exactly is holding me back here so that I can fix it?
temporary1523@gmail.com as a throwaway email account.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (36 answers total) 11 users marked this as a favorite
 
Maybe you should ask out more people.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:32 PM on May 23, 2010 [3 favorites]


I realize that I don't ask out that many people

This is your problem. If you are a man (as I'm guessing you are, though you don't say), you need to ask women out if you want to date. In general, women expect to be asked and are not trained from puberty to ask, so they don't do it. If you don't want to ask, you have to get yourself in front of the women you want to ask you. Have you tried online dating? I sense it could be good for you, as it will put you in a realm of people who are definitely out there looking for dates.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:37 PM on May 23, 2010 [6 favorites]


I believe you make your own luck, so I don't buy this.

This belief is wrong. While luck may not "exist", the laws of probability do. And the laws of probability indicate that the more often you try something, the chance of a success increases.
posted by Jimbob at 6:37 PM on May 23, 2010 [7 favorites]


Are you actually sexual? Do you like sex, and do you give off a vibe that lets girls know that? The way you describe yourself is very dry, and I wonder if that's how you come across in real life.

I don't think never being kissed at 23 has anything to do with bad luck.
posted by mpls2 at 6:43 PM on May 23, 2010 [2 favorites]


Make it explicitly clear that you are asking the woman on a date. Especially in the ballroom dancing community, there are plenty of women who will give you that coffee date, at least. If the demographics for your dance community are wrong, start dancing somewhere where the college kids hang out.

You may need to level your dating ability before you find someone you're actually interested in. Increase the probability of this happening by being assertive.
posted by Happydaz at 6:53 PM on May 23, 2010 [1 favorite]


You've sworn off dating at 23?!? The way you write seems to come across as how great you are. Does it matter if you have more research experience than grad students? If you come across this way when dating, you will probably turn off most women. Stop over thinking this and just go out with people--women that you have at least some interest in, even if just to be friends and guys that you can hang out with (and who may have female friends they would fix you up with). Plus, you kind of have to date for the sake of dating in order to find "the one"; the more you date, the more likely you are to meet that special someone.
posted by MsKim at 7:00 PM on May 23, 2010 [2 favorites]


ThePinkSuperhero is absolutely right, you've got to ask to get the date. More than that, I know its really tempting to limit yourself to asking people out who you already think might be great for you, but thats really limiting your options. If you start changing your requirements for who you'll ask out, I think there's a good chance you'll find that you get along great with women you might not have expected to.

In terms of dating for the sake of dating, it sucks, but it can be incredibly useful. If you haven't been on all that many dates, you might not be as confident as you could be, and you might not have enough experience to pick up the signals women may be giving off. I'm not saying date just anyone, but again, expand your horizons and get out there. You don't have to go into every date thinking there's a possibility of a hugely long-term relationship, just the chance to have fun.

If you haven't tried online dating, really you should. Not only is it becoming more and more mainstream, but its fantastic for introverts, and can help you connect with the right kind of people from completely different social groups who you might otherwise never have met. OKCupid is well designed, totally free, and uses a pretty nifty matching algorithm developed by some ex-Harvard types (their blog also has some sweet data mining/analysis).
posted by dantekgeek at 7:02 PM on May 23, 2010


I'd really like to figure what exactly about my personality is keeping people from seeing me as a potential date.

I don't know if you noticed it, but reread everything you've written. Do you see it? You're kind of really self-aggrandizing. When you tell us about yourself, you don't. Instead, you mention your accomplishments, complimenting your success with each one you list. All the statements you make are statements of fact, even though they are all purely subjective except for perhaps the overweight thing which itself is judge-y. Notice that you didn't say you're "in good shape." You immediately contrasted yourself with the sort of individual you believe you are better than. A certain amount of arrogance is great; a constant flow, especially without wit, not so much. If this is your conversational style, you're going to have problems. Now, It is cool that you are accomplished, but we know absolutely nothing about you. Unfortunately, most people don't care about those accomplishments unless they already match their interests and in a general "oh, cool, here's a dude that can Get Shit Done" way. And if you've been keeping up with Human Relations, matching interests do not a relationship make (although they're nice to have.) Who are you? What do you find fun? Even the single hobby you give is a) not a social one and b) specific to the point of dull to people who don't care. And most wont. This is, I am afraid, is what your friend might mean by "intimidating." You're clearly a serious and disciplined person who is getting the most out of what they want from life. However, you don't sound like a whole lot of fun.

You're used to Serious Business and dating is already such a goddamn pain that treating it as Serious Business is a huge turnoff. You need to learn to shrug off responsibility and just lay back. Watch The Big Lebowski. Be a little less Frank Grimes and a little more Dude.
posted by griphus at 7:26 PM on May 23, 2010 [17 favorites]


I'll venture to say you may be someone for whom traditional dating (as in, "going on a date" as opposed to "dating a particular person) isn't the best way for you to meet and get to know someone in a romantic sense.

You may be somebody for whom a friendship forms first and then a relationship follows. This is primarily the way my particular groups of friends have found their mates --- and they weren't necessarily looking. It happened by going to a party at friend's and meeting a girl from another group of friends belonging to a friend. And then meeting that girl at the next party. And then that girl getting enfolded in the group of friends and then somewhere in there a romantic relationship is formed. I dare say that very few of my married friends ever went on "dates" with the people they married.

We're the type of people who prefer to go to pubs at 2 on a Sunday to drink three or four rounds. We're the type of people who really love board games and quirky, off-beat movies. We're the type of people who have varied interests but all of which imply a level of geekiness above normal. It's just who we are. Dating, as understood here, would never have worked for any of us for many of the reasons you describe.

Maybe you just need some more plain old friends first. And then to go to their parties or out to dinner with their friends and out to a movie with their friends' friends and get to know people fairly well before going on one-on-one dates.
posted by zizzle at 7:28 PM on May 23, 2010 [3 favorites]


Ask ten women out on dates.

If nine say 'no' and one says 'yes', you've got a date. The nine don't matter. The one does.

Lather, rinse, repeat, and observe. Your ratio will improve, as will your ability to find women you genuinely enjoy spending time with, and who enjoy spending time with you.
posted by alms at 7:35 PM on May 23, 2010 [1 favorite]


Oh, and what I mentioned about wit? Try your best to develop it without turning into fedora guy. You're high risk for that.
posted by griphus at 7:52 PM on May 23, 2010 [4 favorites]


It sounds like you are the sort of person who is used to being successful at whatever you do. And since this success has eluded you for dating you have just given up. Maybe (totally guessing here, my apologies for assuming anything) you are dissatisfied with your relationship with friends in general and have reacted by diving into your work rather than cultivating relationships. You can't give up. You have to work at it, even though it is hard and you aren't very good at it. It will get easier, though.

Somehow, by this description, I don't think the problem is just that you aren't asking enough women out. Sure, whatever your probability of success is in an individual encounter, asking more people out is going to help (to a point). But perhaps working on the way you think about yourself and how it comes across to others would help more. I think there are already some good suggestions. As you try to narrow down your strategy, you might ask your female friends what they want to see in a guy. Early 20s women are unlikely to say that they are looking for a guy who is a hard-working researcher and into ballroom dancing (women who are interested in ballroom dancing are already doing it, and know plenty of guys who do the same).

Also, try group therapy rather than individual therapy. It can be useful for people who don't necessarily have anything that really needs to be treated through individual therapy, but could use some improvement in their interpersonal skills.
posted by grouse at 7:54 PM on May 23, 2010


You've mentioned dozens of things that are great about you, but nothing about what makes you a good date. A good date is attentive, interested in the wo/man they are on the date with, able to maintain a comfortable conversation, able to laugh and have fun.

If people already think you have a girlfriend, you're probably sending out some kind of stand-offish "i'm unavailable" vibe. Try deliberately sending out a "I am available and I am interested in you" vibe. But you have to MEAN it. If you're walking into dates with a big "sigh, this totally sucks, i am sooo above this 'dating' bullshit" - a woman is going to have to really, really like you a LOT to bother to stick around. Ask your female friends to be totally honest about how you come off in a social setting. Listen to them. Take their advice.
posted by micawber at 8:04 PM on May 23, 2010 [1 favorite]


Follow-up from the OP:
Are you actually sexual? Do you like sex, and do you give off a vibe
that lets girls know that?
-- I have no idea. I'm honestly extremely
concerned that this is the problem, and I was trying to communicate
this in my original message. It seems like no one ever flirts with me
in a non-just-for-fun-as-friends manner. God no I'm not this dry
offline. Distilling your personality and what not into a message is
hard as hell. Apparently this one failed badly :)

Make it explicitly clear that you are asking the woman on a date.
Especially in the ballroom dancing community, there are plenty of
women who will give you that coffee date, at least. If the
demographics for your dance community are wrong, start dancing
somewhere where the college kids hang out.
-- Honestly I've never
asked anyone out there for two reasons: 1) I don't want to be
perceived to be "that guy" who is only dancing to pick up chicks 2)
its hard enough getting taken seriously dancing as a guy without
asking people out.

Does it matter if you have more research experience than grad
students?
-- Hell no. But I was trying to work off of the "am I
intimidating" angle that my friend seemed to think might be a problem.
I certainly don't see how it matters. I also don't see how a 5'9"
introvert is that intimidating though.

I don't know if you noticed it, but reread everything you've written.
Do you see it? You're kind of really self-aggrandizing. When you tell
us about yourself, you don't. Instead, you mention your
accomplishments, complimenting your success with each one you list. --

Well I was partly worried I was really intimidating, so I was trying
to come up with reasons to justify that as I said. Every technical
major has the experience of merely stating your major being a
conversation killer :)

All the statements you make are statements of fact, even though they
are all purely subjective except for perhaps the overweight thing
which itself is judge-y. Notice that you didn't say you're "in good
shape." You immediately contrasted yourself with the sort of
individual you believe you are better than. --
Yeah I used to be
really overweight so the immediate way I think of this is "not
overweight anymore ;)" I considered it a massive victory to be able
to say I was in shape and not overweight. Does this really come off
as that arrogant? :(

You're clearly a serious and disciplined person who is getting the
most out of what they want from life. However, you don't sound like a
whole lot of fun.
-- The ironic thing is I'm usually the guy forcing
the ridiculously serious and disciplined people out to have some fun.

We're the type of people who prefer to go to pubs at 2 on a Sunday to
drink three or four rounds. We're the type of people who really love
board games and quirky, off-beat movies. --
This is exactly me.

Maybe you just need some more plain old friends first. And then to go
to their parties or out to dinner with their friends and out to a
movie with their friends' friends and get to know people fairly well
before going on one-on-one dates. --
This sounds a lot like rolling
the dice and hoping to get lucky.

It sounds like you are the sort of person who is used to being
successful at whatever you do. And since this success has eluded you
for dating you have just given up. Maybe (totally guessing here, my
apologies for assuming anything) you are dissatisfied with your
relationship with friends in general and have reacted by diving into
your work rather than cultivating relationships. You can't give up.
You have to work at it, even though it is hard and you aren't very
good at it. It will get easier, though. --
Well yes. But "working" at
dating is a heck of a lot more amphorous goal because you can't
exactly "practice." However, I don't dive into my work rather then
cultivate relationships. I just *really really* like what I do. And
for whatever it is worth I don't believe the two are mutually
exclusive.

Somehow, by this description, I don't think the problem is just that
you aren't asking enough women out. Sure, whatever your probability of
success is in an individual encounter, asking more people out is going
to help (to a point). But perhaps working on the way you think about
yourself and how it comes across to others would help more. --
This
was my thinking as well. Its the reason I stopped asking people out.
Clearly something isn't right so attacking the problem until someone
happens to say yes isn't going to help.

I think there are already some good suggestions. As you try to narrow
down your strategy, you might ask your female friends what they want
to see in a guy. Early 20s women are unlikely to say that they are
looking for a guy who is a hard-working researcher and into ballroom
dancing (women who are interested in ballroom dancing are already
doing it, and know plenty of guys who do the same). --
It is really,
really hard to convince people that being a guy dancer is usually a
net negative for dating. Thanks for being the one person who
understands that.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:10 PM on May 23, 2010


You sound pretty analytical. Analytical can be mis-perceived as judgmental. I don't like spending time with people who are judgmental.

You sound stand-offish. Hell, you are stand-offish. Your description of yourself is mostly a rehash of your resume. Dating isn't a job interview. This might be part of the problem.

Work on your elevator pitch. You are more than what you're studying and what you do 9-5. Seriously. I didn't believe that when I was 23 but I learned pretty fast.

Don't think of it as dating for the sake of dating. Think of it as increasing the odds that you'll find someone really interesting by spending time with more people. That's how you make your own luck.
posted by kat518 at 8:14 PM on May 23, 2010


Every technical major has the experience of merely stating your major being a conversation killer.
Sort of. Every individual has the experience of merely stating one of their interests etc. etc. You are not different. Neither better nor worse, neither more or less interesting. I have been both a Computer Science and an English major. I have both fascinated and bored dates to tears with explanations of both.

Well yes. But "working" at dating is a heck of a lot more amphorous goal because you can't exactly "practice."
Yes, there is. It's called "going on dates." Everyone is telling you to ask more women out. You have no reason not to. Once you do, you will go on more dates. Once that happens your mindset will shift. Right now you see things as a certain duality: Dating/Not Dating. You have to get yourself into the mindset that the duality is supposed to be Good Date/Bad Date.
posted by griphus at 8:27 PM on May 23, 2010


I think I went to school with some guys like you. Suggestion: expand your horizons. Do some volunteer work -- and mean it, not in a mechanical get-it-on-the-resume fashion. Pick up litter at your local park, make an extravagant donation to charity, take your cousin out for lunch... Warm up to the world. Feel the love that's already out there without seeking it out for yourself, for now.

If you were "very good at understanding people" you wouldn't have come off as a blowhard here. Scale that back a bit, remember that you are 23, drink more beer.

Re. objecting to "Maybe you just need some more plain old friends first" advice -- don't object to it. "...go to pubs at 2 on a Sunday to drink three or four rounds. We're the type of people who really love board games and quirky, off-beat movies. -- This is exactly me" -- come on, man, when was the last time you did any of those things? If this were true, you'd be saying "But I'm busy with my movie club, and unscheduled hours on campus mean getting chased down for 'Scrabble,' and I barely see my apartment because people are always swinging by to take me to the pub; I don't see where I have time for more friends!" Potential significant others want a partner who's nice to be with, not somebody involved in a complex start-up etc etc.
posted by kmennie at 8:36 PM on May 23, 2010 [1 favorite]


Maybe you just need some more plain old friends first. And then to go
to their parties or out to dinner with their friends and out to a
movie with their friends' friends and get to know people fairly well
before going on one-on-one dates. -- This sounds a lot like rolling
the dice and hoping to get lucky.


This is something I notice, hanging around Metafilter. There seems to still be this weird, 1950s-esque obsession among Americans about The Date. I can assure you that it doesn't have to be this way, you don't have to ask random women out On A Date, as I met my wife at a night out of friends and friends-of-friends that went from a movie to a pub to a nightclub to an all-night pancake kitchen. If dating isn't working, don't date, just hang out and make opportunities.
posted by Jimbob at 8:40 PM on May 23, 2010 [5 favorites]


Building on what kat518 wrote (you are not your resume/dating isn't a job interview): how busy do you sound? When you're on a date, or hanging out with friends, or talking casually to acquaintances, how much of your side of the conversation is about work? It sounds like you're really jazzed about what you do, which is great, but is it possible that you're presenting your excitement in a way that comes across less like "I love what I do" and more like "I spend all my time and energy and emotional resources on my work"?

In many social situations--but I think this is true of first dates in particular--talking a lot about work/school, and about how busy it keeps you, can translate into a vibe of unavailability, or even disinterest. If you're telling the person across the table, "I'm constantly [working/in the lab/studying/launching my business]," it's possible that the person will hear "...by which I mean that I'm far too busy to date you." If you come across as That Guy Who's Always Busy and Kind of Preoccupied, it could also explain why you're seen as intimidating.
posted by 2or3things at 8:47 PM on May 23, 2010 [2 favorites]


Seconding JimBob. If you want to date people, you start by just being social. Then a few friends go out as a group. Then if that's fun, maybe you try going out with someone one-on-one. The way you put it, dating almost seems like a chore. It's not supposed to be like that, it's supposed to be more like hanging out with a friend than going to the soda fountain after the sock hop.
posted by kat518 at 9:00 PM on May 23, 2010


Agreed on the "about me:" résumé. Adding to what has been said about your intimidation... presenting an image of smooth perfection is not a way to relate to people. It's boring and at worst, seen as a defense mechanism against insecurities. It’s the common foibles and snags that people hook onto, that show you’re not perfect and that you are down-to-earth. Why are women attracted to self-deprecation? Because a secure, confident person can make fun of himself. I'm guessing your first dates aren't leading to seconds because the conversation isn't working out. Maybe you need to focus less on yourself, and more on your date? Good listening isn't taken for granted. Quoting from a communication skills book (Messages, McKay):

People who don't listen are bores. They don't seem interested in anyone but themselves. They turn off potential friends and lovers by giving the message "What you have to say doesn't matter much to me." As a result, they often feel lonely and isolated. The tragedy is that people who don't listen rarely figure what's wrong. They change their perfume or cologne, they get new clothes, they work at being funny, and they talk about "interesting" things. But the underlying problem remains. They aren't fun to talk to because the other person never feels satisfied that he or she has been heard.


You haven't told us how your dates actually went, but listening is one area frequently needing improvement. Good communication is essential for any relationship.
posted by mnemonic at 9:05 PM on May 23, 2010


Fixing link: women attracted to self-deprecation
posted by mnemonic at 9:07 PM on May 23, 2010


For whatever it is worth I think in a very intuitive manner, and am very good at understanding people.

No offense meant here, but are you sure about this? I mean, do you really, truly "understand people?" I ask because I see a lot of my younger self in this comment, and it's especially ironic because the very nature of the question that you're asking suggests that you don't. At least not in this particular context.

Oh, for the days when I was 23! I "understood" everything there was to know about people! My intuition was infallible! And yet...somehow when it came to finding and dating people with whom I was remotely able to connect on a level that had anything to do with adult concerns, well...no dice. Because, you see, I didn't really understand a damn thing, and it's only been for the past few years (I'm 32 now) that I've really, honestly been able to say that I'm BEGINNING to "get" what makes people tick.

So, you may legitimately ask, what are the implications of this statement? A lot of people above me have it right. For instance, I reiterate what 2or3things stated: If you come across as That Guy Who's Always Busy and Kind of Preoccupied, it could also explain why you're seen as intimidating. I mention this as a great example because, frankly, that is kind of how you come across in your original question. I've dated guys like this before, and while I had no problem with them as people, I didn't necessarily feel that what I had to say about my own goals, dreams, talents, etc was really being heard. In retrospect, I can see that they were trying to make a good impression, and in one sense they succeeded. I'm still like, "damn, being an anesthesiologist must be pretty cool!" But dating is an "audition" for a partner. This means that HER activities, be they professional, personal, or future, are equally as important as yours. Yes, i would personally want to know whether my potential boyfriend had anything to do besides laying on the couch eating potato chips and watching daytime court shows all day. But...and this is one of those "but's" that comes with experience....I would also want questions to be asked. I would want that dude to take a break from his resume and say, "So...enough about me, what do YOU love to do? What are some projects that you have going on right now? If you cold be anywhere in the world right now, where would you be? What do you read/listen to/have on your walls?..." you get the idea.

And yes, it's a roll of the dice every time! Some of the answers you would get even just to the questions above are going to make your head blow up! But you know what? You've just learned something - something that may not have anything to do with your major, but is going to make you a more sympathetic and rounded person, if you choose to integrate it into your worldview. And you've just made a woman feel as though you actually are interested in her as a person, and not just another line on your resume.

I think you sound like a cool person, and I think that with time, you're going to find the most wonderful woman in the world for yourself. You've got a lot going for you, especially for 23! Just don't feel like you have to work so hard to impress us...and we'll be impressed. Best of "luck" (heh) to you!
posted by deep thought sunstar at 9:38 PM on May 23, 2010 [2 favorites]


What's holding you back is that you don't know what you're doing. You don't know how to date, or even get dates. And you know what? That is 100% normal and A-OK! Hey, you'll figure it all out in time and you'll be fine. In the meantime, I'd suggest you learn how to ask out more people and learn how to accept rejection. After all, a no isn't the end of the world. In fact, a no might have nothing at all to do with you. You might have asked out someone who is seeing someone, or maybe she's taking time off from dating, or maybe she lacks confidence to say yes.... You never know, really, and that's fine. It's all part of the dating experience.

With practice, you'll get better at it. Try not to pressure yourself with worrying about it. Just meet people. Try, and try again. With practice, you'll get better at it.


"Universally my problems seem to be ascribed to bad luck. I believe you make your own luck, so I don't buy this."

I couldn't agree with you more! You make your own luck. You just need to learn how to start making your own dating luck.


"I'm really hoping you can figure out where I'm going wrong. The only real clue I have is that I have been told by a friend who isn't intimidated by anyone that she thinks I'm really intimidating."

It sounds to me like you need to learn how to lighten up, maybe? Or how to be more easygoing? I don't know, but I'm betting that you DO know. Part of it might really be that you need to make an effort to be less serious. Or more laid back? Maybe more charming? I'm not saying that you're not charming... but maybe you need to make an effort to learn how to be less serious and more... something? Again, you may need to make an effort to change the way you present yourself. Trust me - I've been there. For me, the trick was to learn how to let my sense of humor shine. That made me more relaxed, which made me more fun to be around.

Give it some thought. I have a feeling you'll figure it out.


"I'd really like to figure what exactly about my personality is keeping people from seeing me as a potential date."

It really could be something as simple as you not making an effort to meet women and ask them out. Maybe you're hoping for it to happen naturally and casually. Sure, that works for some people, but for others of us (myself included) we have to make an effort to find potential dates and ask them out.


"I've been to three different therapists who have all told me they had no idea why I was there because there didn't seem to be anything out of the norm with me."

I have a feeling there's nothing wrong with you at all. You probably just over-think things, and that's perfectly normal.

Look, you're 23. If you'd managed to figure all of this out by age 23, I'd hate you. OK, I wouldn't hate you, but I'd envy you. I was closer to 33 before I even got a clue. I turn 39 in about 45 minutes :)

You sound like an awesome person and you're probably more on the right track than you realize. Best of luck!


P.S. My god man! You're good at ballroom dancing? You need to use that as a way to meet women! Try online dating (okcupid, which is free, not a pay site like match.com). Write an ad about looking for a date to go dancing with!
posted by 2oh1 at 11:16 PM on May 23, 2010 [1 favorite]


Wow, this thread is almost describing how I am feeling about myself these days! I'm 24, I have been in a couple of relationships, but am really struggling to find people to go out with and feel similarly to you in that I blame this on myself; I'm not blaming luck, or the people around me because I know that I should be able to get myself out of this situation on my own!

I've recently joined OKCupid myself based on recommendations from other threads on here and assuming you live in a somewhat built up area, you should be able to find a few people on there that you might be interested in. Have a read of the blog post the OKCupid mods did on how much to write, what tone of language you should use, and how to come across as a nice person and you should be able to get responses from maybe half of the people you message (average is 30ish% I seem to recall). Once you've exchanged 2-3 messages with people on there, just ask them if they'd rather continue the conversation in person over a coffee and as long as you come across as friendly, they'll probably go for it.
A quick disclaimer on this: don't be down if you don't get many responses at first! Keep at it and people will message back. I even had one girl ignore a message for 3 weeks and then eventually start a fresh conversation over again.

If you don't want to use your ballroom dancing to meet people to date, you might need a new hobby where women don't assume that every guy there is present to pick up girls (is this really what women think in the ballroom dancing scene though? I don't know enough to comment). I decided that I needed to meet more people even just as friends because, as people have said above, friends of friends are often the best people to go out with and you can't meet friends of friends without friends in the first place!

I think my mother's comment on this when I mentioned it her recently was pretty good: she told me that I just needed more practice meeting and dating people and that I should drop my standards a bit so I can practice dating more. My favourite part of her advice: 'forget going for nice girls, just go for any girls to get some practice, and remember the uglier ones appreciate it more'. (I never thought I'd hear something this type of comment from my mother, but there you go...)
posted by iwillcatchthebird at 12:30 AM on May 24, 2010


The only real clue I have is that I have been told by a friend who isn't intimidated by anyone that she thinks I'm really intimidating.

I have found that, over the course of my life, I collect fewer and fewer "I used to be [intimiated by you|threatened by you|thought you were an asshole] before I got to know you" comments from women. In fact, it's been years since I've gotten one. What it was, though, was shyness. The older I get, the less shy I get, and the more accessible I seem to people who meet me, and the converse was true.

And you rarely if ever ask anyone out. Well, good luck with that; we live in a society where guys take all the risk of rejection. So, yes, if you ask girls out, many will say no. And some will say yes! And then you will be dating. I discovered this in high school, after a relationship went south, and a friend said "ask someone else out, quick!" so I did. She said yes! Then I asked another one, who said no, and I stopped asking until post-college (and so only dated girls who asked me out, thin on the ground.) Then I started asking girls out again, and what do you know, all but one said yes. If I hadn't started asking, I might have gone to my grave thinking I was lousy dating material.

So you're 23, and you have a long future of asking and sometimes getting rejected, sometimes getting accepted. You might as well start now like the rest of us. Otherwise you'll be limiting your dating pool to women who ask you out -- and sure, the perfect person for you might ask you out, but what if the perfect person for you is too shy herself?

Incidentally, if you go teach ballroom dancing, or at least attend more classes, you'll meet a lot of women in a setting where you feel comfortable. Just don't ask anyone out until the end of the last day of class, so that they don't feel squicky about having to see you in class after turning you down.
posted by davejay at 12:39 AM on May 24, 2010


disclaimer: of the three women I consider the most amazing loves of my life, one asked me out, I asked one out, and one was a delightful coincidence.
posted by davejay at 12:41 AM on May 24, 2010


Another follow-up from the OP:
Building on what kat518 wrote (you are not your resume/dating isn't a
job interview): how busy do you sound? When you're on a date, or
hanging out with friends, or talking casually to acquaintances, how
much of your side of the conversation is about work? It sounds like
you're really jazzed about what you do, which is great, but is it
possible that you're presenting your excitement in a way that comes
across less like "I love what I do" and more like "I spend all my time
and energy and emotional resources on my work"?

In many social situations--but I think this is true of first dates in
particular--talking a lot about work/school, and about how busy it
keeps you, can translate into a vibe of unavailability, or even
disinterest. If you're telling the person across the table, "I'm
constantly [working/in the lab/studying/launching my business]," it's
possible that the person will hear "...by which I mean that I'm far
too busy to date you." If you come across as That Guy Who's Always
Busy and Kind of Preoccupied, it could also explain why you're seen as
intimidating."

I read this and I went... this is me. I'm the guy who needs a
blackberry to keep track of life. How much I talk about work depends
on how interested people are. But everything I do pretty much sounds
like "ridiculously time and energy intensive." And if I explain what
I do it sounds even more absurdly time and energy intensive. And when
I throw in a hobby... it probably sounds like I need to violate the
laws of physics to find time to sleep. Clearly I'm not.... but I
rearrange my schedule all the time when I want to do things. Even
working 70 or more hour weeks I've gone out every or at least every
other night at times. But if you talk to me there is no way that
would ever come across. And actually thinking about it the last
person to ask me out was also one of the few people to know that I did
that. So maybe I just need to somehow make it clearer to people that
I do things besides work :) In fact a good friend mentioned the other
day that he felt he could never tell if he could talk to me because my
life seemed permanently busy. It took a good deal of reassuring to
convince him that I had time. This has to be the problem. Or if not
the problem, a giant part of the problem. Not entirely clear yet how
to solve the problem, but at least I know what the problem is.

To clarify: I'm not having trouble with getting second dates. The
only first date I went on led to a second which led to a third which
probably would have led to more if we had stayed in the same city.
Listening is not a problem. As I wrote in OP, once I'm talking to
someone conversation flows really, really well. The problem is that I
can never get to first dates and thus I can never get to conversation
unless its because someone asked me out. I don't know how I'm
supposed to practice dating when I'm not able to land first dates.
Please stop harping on the "resume" approach. It is nothing like how
I talk in real life. I was just trying to create a quick all around
guide to anything that could possibly create problems. If I try
OkCupid I'll make sure to take this as an example of what not to write
in a profile ;)
posted by Jaltcoh at 4:41 AM on May 24, 2010


I don't know how I'm supposed to practice dating when I'm not able to land first dates.

Practice having friends; dates will follow naturally.

So maybe I just need to somehow make it clearer to people that
I do things besides work


Actually doing things besides work would be the easiest way. If there were big other parts of your life I'm sure you would've mentioned them here, and you haven't. Read a local newspaper; when you meet somebody, have a chat about the latest stories in the city section.

Also, the odd time I did go out on a date with a chap flavoured like you, it tended to end because he had to go home early because he had to be in bed early because he jogged at 5:30am and that was what he always did and it was incomprehensible to him to do otherwise, or something similar. 5:30 jogging was necessary because he'd be in the lab by 7, and at that point I might to start to feel I was strange for not having Sundays full of planned busywork myself. And certainly he never had any idea of what we might do besides going to a tableclothy restaurant with mediocre food; not, to put it lightly, keyed in to the local city life or social circles. Be aware of placing your other commitments too far ahead of your socializing.
posted by kmennie at 5:52 AM on May 24, 2010 [1 favorite]


Maybe you just need some more plain old friends first. And then to go
to their parties or out to dinner with their friends and out to a
movie with their friends' friends and get to know people fairly well
before going on one-on-one dates.
-- This sounds a lot like rolling
the dice and hoping to get lucky.


But it's not, exactly. It's not "hoping to get lucky," as much as it is "maximizing the probability of meeting someone I have common interests in and can build off a relationship from there." I'm not sure if your approach is to ask random women out after a five minute conversation while waiting to order coffee (which works for some people and not others), but if it is, then it's not working for you, clearly. So you need to find a method that does work.

By putting yourself in an environment with people you like doing things you like, the odds of you finding someone you want to date but who also wants to date you greatly increases. It goes back to the probability mentioned above --- the more in common you have with someone, the more to talk about at first followed by the the interesting things, which are really just the things that are different about you. If you're really into tech things, go to a technological convention. If you're into comic books, grab a friend and go to the local festival. Tabletop role playing? Lots of comic book stores and even some libraries have a time when a group of people can make use of some space for this purpose.

Putting yourself out there is good, but it may help to put yourself out there in an environment you would find enjoyment in because in an environment you find an enjoyment in with people doing the same things you like, you will be more likely to find someone, or even a few people, to date.
posted by zizzle at 6:15 AM on May 24, 2010


The problem is that I can never get to first dates and thus I can never get to conversation unless its because someone asked me out. I don't know how I'm
supposed to practice dating when I'm not able to land first dates.


This is why I think hanging out in groups might work better for you --- because you have conversations before the date and it's possible to already have the small talk out of the way.

Why not try it? Why not just go to a party a friend is throwing and just talk to a girl with no expectation of a date? And then if you think she's cool, you call up said friend and say, "Hey, that girl I spent an hour talking to last night? Do you have her phone number? I'd really like to hang out with her again," and then you call her and say, "Hey, it's Anon --- remember last week we talked quite a bit at Friend's party? Well, I was wondering if you wanted to get together for some coffee later this week" ---- or, and this is where I think things might work better for you, "I'm having Friend and some other people over for brunch this Sunday. Would you like to come?" or, "I've made plans with Friend and some other people to have a picnic in the park, and I was wondering if you'd like to come?" This way it's not a date, per se, so there's no pressure for either you or her. But there will be opportunity to get some date-like conversation in that can lead to dates.
posted by zizzle at 6:24 AM on May 24, 2010


If I try OkCupid I'll make sure to take this as an example of what not to write in a profile ;)

A tip: Learn to walk the fine line of Desirability. You have to seem occupied enough to not be a schlub playing PS3 all day, but not too occupied that she will think there's no room for her in your life. Arrogant and self-complimentary enough to come off as a guy who knows himself and likes himself, but not so much that he thinks it is a grave iniquity that flowers do not grow in his footprints. Self-deprecating enough that you're a guy who knows he's flawed and isn't terribly self-conscious about it, yet not so much that he seems down on himself.

It is a fine line, but like a tightrope walker, eventually you learn to walk it. Think of your OKCupid profile as an experiment in evolution. Over time, figure out what the sort of girls you find yourself attracted to mention drew them to contact you or to respond to your contacting them. Emphasize these aspects to the extent that you're comfortable with, and to the extent that they still represent who you are (as opposed to who you wish to appear to be.)

Good luck. You're a confident guy and that is very, very important. You'll be fine. MeMail me if you like.
posted by griphus at 6:33 AM on May 24, 2010 [1 favorite]


I am very sympathetic to you here, and I've known other guys a lot like you (even ones never kissed at 23!), and I don't think you sound dull or self-aggrandizing, but the biggest reaction I'm having is, "You don't want to date just to date, yet you're upset you're not dating????" Dude, if you want to date, you gotta ask people out. Just to go out. I'm not sure how you're going to find the RIGHT person to date without, you know, TRYING A FEW ON FOR SIZE. Or a lot on for size.

Many younger Americans don't live in places where Dating-with-a-capital-D is the norm anymore; it's more low-key hanging out in groups, meeting through work or volunteerism or activities, and gradually growing from friendship to relationship. That's okay too. Either way, you gotta get out there and meet people.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:35 AM on May 24, 2010


A couple of thoughts, based on your follow-ups:

It might be a good idea to downplay how busy you are, rather than try to play up your willingness to "rearrange your schedule" for socializing. If I were evaluating you as a potential date I'd be concerned that rearranging your schedule for me on a regular basis might become a tiresome imposition for you after awhile.

Definitely don't make it sound like 70 hour work weeks are the norm. And don't make it sound like your startup is (or is likely to become) a second, time-consuming career for you. A little something you like to do on the side, is all.

As a particular dating relationship progresses the details of your work life will gradually come out, but by then it shouldn't matter so much if you've consistently and happily been available for dates and hanging out time.

Also, the ballroom dancing? WAY intimidating to non-ballroom dancers. If you're not going to date women from the dance scene it might be a good idea to downplay that as well. If someone told me they were into ballroom dancing I'd probably mentally write them off as a potential boyfriend because that just sounds like a recipe for either a) being expected to participate in something I'm not good at or b) being expected to be gracious while my boyfriend spends a good chunk of his free time whirling other women around the dance floor.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 7:26 AM on May 24, 2010 [4 favorites]


I don't think I'm seen as a potential romantic interest.

Do you know how to flirt? Do you know how to look at a woman and make her think of you as a potential romantic interest? I'm not being facetious; it's a difficult skill to master. But as a woman, let me tell you that there is (was, before I married) a huge difference in my perception of a man who spoke to me as a friend or colleague and one who approached me as though he thought I was attractive. If a man who had never flirted with me suggested a date out of the blue, I was much less likely to go.

Also, never underestimate the effect of being seen in the company of women. It increases your cache as a potential romantic interest. Ask a pretty female friend to go dancing with you and help you meet other women. Heck, ask your sister or cousin!
posted by Knowyournuts at 11:31 AM on May 24, 2010 [1 favorite]


Get onto an online dating site. Email every woman you're interested in. Write back once more to everyone who writes back to you that you're still interested in. Invite everybody who writes back a second time out on a date.

Pretty much anybody can go on 2 or 3 first dates a week this way, forever, if they wanted to. It's fish and a barrel out there, it's ridiculous.

It sounds to me like you're just making excuses for not doing the obvious. Maybe you're only trying to date women far more attractive than you. Maybe you don't really want to date. If you want to, it's damn easy.
posted by callmejay at 12:05 PM on May 24, 2010 [1 favorite]


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