I feel like I'm in over my head.
May 8, 2010 6:58 AM Subscribe
I found out that I'm (rising 2L) most likely underqualified for a position (legal internship in a small firm) I'm interviewing for next Tuesday.
The description in the job posting, with its somewhat narrowly tailored duties, seemed fairly relevant to the practice areas I intend to go into, and there weren't any explicitly listed qualifications that I failed to meet. When they called me last week, I agreed to an interview.
However, upon further research, I feel like I'm in way over my head. I don't even have an in-theory, overall understanding of any of the firm's practice areas (all related to very specialized areas of finance). I realize that no law student (or graduate, really) knows what's going on when they first go into a legal internship, but this firm's practice areas just seem to scream for an intern with at least some finance-related background.
I would like to work for this firm; the firm's practice areas in business law are related to my interests, and I have quite a bit of interest in learning more. So I guess my question is: Any interview tips for getting a legal internship I want, but in a field of which I have no knowledge, and in a field I have little demonstrative interest in?
The description in the job posting, with its somewhat narrowly tailored duties, seemed fairly relevant to the practice areas I intend to go into, and there weren't any explicitly listed qualifications that I failed to meet. When they called me last week, I agreed to an interview.
However, upon further research, I feel like I'm in way over my head. I don't even have an in-theory, overall understanding of any of the firm's practice areas (all related to very specialized areas of finance). I realize that no law student (or graduate, really) knows what's going on when they first go into a legal internship, but this firm's practice areas just seem to scream for an intern with at least some finance-related background.
I would like to work for this firm; the firm's practice areas in business law are related to my interests, and I have quite a bit of interest in learning more. So I guess my question is: Any interview tips for getting a legal internship I want, but in a field of which I have no knowledge, and in a field I have little demonstrative interest in?
Oh, and read the Wall Street Journal or equivalent (depends on how large the firm is, what level they operate at) daily until your interview. Having a good sense of what's going on, even if you don't necessarily understand the ins and outs, may well help you show an interest in the area. And if a topic is raised (Greek debt for example), you'll have some knowledge on it with which to participate in a discussion.
posted by djgh at 7:18 AM on May 8, 2010
posted by djgh at 7:18 AM on May 8, 2010
Rather than the Wall St Journal, I'd read the Financial Times. But it's not clear to me that reading either of these two publications would help a lawyer-in-training.
If you are looking for reading material pertinent to the position for which you're interviewing post back here with more details about the position.
posted by dfriedman at 7:44 AM on May 8, 2010
If you are looking for reading material pertinent to the position for which you're interviewing post back here with more details about the position.
posted by dfriedman at 7:44 AM on May 8, 2010
A rising 2L (any 2L) is barely qualified to open up westlaw. Not really qualified to do actual research. Certainly not qualified to have an idea about different practice areas a firm works in. Dude, you've had what, contract, torts, and property at this point, and barely much else, right?
All of this is to say, if the firm has chosen to interview you, they know what they're getting, and you're completely qualified for the job they're offering.
So, step 1, don't stress, and get more confident. Step 2, work on looking like a smart, diligent student. Don't try to look like you know anything. They'll know you don't, and it will be laughable to see you try to fake it (and would also raise some red flags to me). Just look like you know you have a lot to learn, but you're a quick learner and you're gaining knowledge every day. That's what they want.
Step 3, research the firm, show you know what they do, and have honest questions about them. Mention a couple things from their website so they know you're not half-assing it.
That's really all there is, I think.
posted by kingjoeshmoe at 8:05 AM on May 8, 2010 [5 favorites]
All of this is to say, if the firm has chosen to interview you, they know what they're getting, and you're completely qualified for the job they're offering.
So, step 1, don't stress, and get more confident. Step 2, work on looking like a smart, diligent student. Don't try to look like you know anything. They'll know you don't, and it will be laughable to see you try to fake it (and would also raise some red flags to me). Just look like you know you have a lot to learn, but you're a quick learner and you're gaining knowledge every day. That's what they want.
Step 3, research the firm, show you know what they do, and have honest questions about them. Mention a couple things from their website so they know you're not half-assing it.
That's really all there is, I think.
posted by kingjoeshmoe at 8:05 AM on May 8, 2010 [5 favorites]
I realize that no law student (or graduate, really) knows what's going on when they first go into a legal internship...
Hang on to this. The law firm is probably only able to offer this internship through your school because of an understanding that they will fill gaps in your education that law school will not.
You can't fake the knowledge, but you'll have to demonstrate some level of interest to make an impression. In addition to reading the papers suggested above, seek out professors of contracts, tax, insurance or business law. Ask them for quick reading suggestions and advice. My business law professor recommended Business Basics for Law Students, but I never read it so I don't know if it's what you need.
Whatever you do, don't go into the interview and start blabbing about stocks or quotients or whatever. Just keep your mouth shut and let them do the talking (I've discovered that hiring partners really like that). Demonstrate your interest when it comes up, but don't come on too strong.
posted by motsque at 8:15 AM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
Hang on to this. The law firm is probably only able to offer this internship through your school because of an understanding that they will fill gaps in your education that law school will not.
You can't fake the knowledge, but you'll have to demonstrate some level of interest to make an impression. In addition to reading the papers suggested above, seek out professors of contracts, tax, insurance or business law. Ask them for quick reading suggestions and advice. My business law professor recommended Business Basics for Law Students, but I never read it so I don't know if it's what you need.
Whatever you do, don't go into the interview and start blabbing about stocks or quotients or whatever. Just keep your mouth shut and let them do the talking (I've discovered that hiring partners really like that). Demonstrate your interest when it comes up, but don't come on too strong.
posted by motsque at 8:15 AM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
In additions to professors, hit up your law library's reference librarians. They can help you:
- have a sense of the research tools you might use in the practice area;
- put the practice area in context with what you've done in your first year; and
- help you research the firm and attorney that's interviewing you.
As mentioned above (joe's step 3), its that third part that's key. They don't expect much subject area expertise. They do expect you to show a knowledgeable interest in the firm. They expect you to do some inexpensive (to them) legal research and writing and quasi-clerical busywork. They expect to mentor you by sharing stories and glimpses into their practice. Above all, they expect you to be a pleasant human being that won't be a pain in their ass for the couple of months you're there.
For researching firms, I like NALP's Directory of Legal Employers.
Good luck.
posted by GPF at 8:49 AM on May 8, 2010
- have a sense of the research tools you might use in the practice area;
- put the practice area in context with what you've done in your first year; and
- help you research the firm and attorney that's interviewing you.
As mentioned above (joe's step 3), its that third part that's key. They don't expect much subject area expertise. They do expect you to show a knowledgeable interest in the firm. They expect you to do some inexpensive (to them) legal research and writing and quasi-clerical busywork. They expect to mentor you by sharing stories and glimpses into their practice. Above all, they expect you to be a pleasant human being that won't be a pain in their ass for the couple of months you're there.
For researching firms, I like NALP's Directory of Legal Employers.
Good luck.
posted by GPF at 8:49 AM on May 8, 2010
i'm a practicing lawyer (associate at a small firm), and i don't always know much (or anything) about a matter when i first start working on it. but i learn about it from people who do, and i apply my general legal "skills" to the new area. that's pretty much how being a lawyer works, at least at first.
and, like others have said, if this firm is looking for a student intern they probably do not expect you to know much about their practice areas. i don't know many law students with a good grasp of specialized finance. hopefully what they're looking for is a intern who wants to learn about these areas and who has the talent to do so.
as for the actual interview, just emphasize your interest in the firm's practice (and anything else about the firm that interests you, such as size/location/culture) and in learning the practical skills that law school doesn't teach you, but these lawyers can. if they start asking you substantive questions about finance, definitely don't pretend you know stuff you don't, and think about whether this is actually the right internship for you at this point in your career.
and good luck!
posted by countingaugust at 8:52 AM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
and, like others have said, if this firm is looking for a student intern they probably do not expect you to know much about their practice areas. i don't know many law students with a good grasp of specialized finance. hopefully what they're looking for is a intern who wants to learn about these areas and who has the talent to do so.
as for the actual interview, just emphasize your interest in the firm's practice (and anything else about the firm that interests you, such as size/location/culture) and in learning the practical skills that law school doesn't teach you, but these lawyers can. if they start asking you substantive questions about finance, definitely don't pretend you know stuff you don't, and think about whether this is actually the right internship for you at this point in your career.
and good luck!
posted by countingaugust at 8:52 AM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think you are grossly overestimating the nature of the work a "legal intern" at a law firm will do. Speaking as someone who's given assignments to summer associates, my own expectations are that the summers (and, honestly, first-year associates) are pretty much useless. I expect that they have the basic ability to run some Lexis/Westlaw searches, read cases, and, if I'm really lucky, coherently summarize or synthesize the points. If you've taken legal research and writing, and have soaked up most of your first-year classes, that's probably enough.
It would be insane for a law firm to have a "legal intern" draft up complex deal docs. Maybe help with assembling things or some other paralegal-like tasks. The usual deal is, they get help with some scutwork, you get exposure to the basic concepts of the practice.
In the interview, express interest in what the lawyers do. But don't underestimate yourself, either. They are not looking for a finance wunderkind.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 9:15 AM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
It would be insane for a law firm to have a "legal intern" draft up complex deal docs. Maybe help with assembling things or some other paralegal-like tasks. The usual deal is, they get help with some scutwork, you get exposure to the basic concepts of the practice.
In the interview, express interest in what the lawyers do. But don't underestimate yourself, either. They are not looking for a finance wunderkind.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 9:15 AM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
All rising 2L's are basically massively underqualified. Law school is nothing like real practice. Native curiosity, smarts, and a desire not to fuck up are all you'll need.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:15 AM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Ironmouth at 9:15 AM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just be sure to ask in your interview what the expectations of the position are. Not all summer internships are the same, especially at a small firm. Sometimes you'll write research memos. Other times, you'll actually draft motions and pleadings. Every single law student is underqualified for their internship.
The best quality in a 2L is their willingness to and ability to jump into projects, figure out what it takes to get it done, and to ask the right questions. Most 2Ls that think they know the business usually don't, and they end up looking like douchey know-it-alls. So, your humbleness is probably a good thing.
posted by jabberjaw at 9:28 AM on May 8, 2010
The best quality in a 2L is their willingness to and ability to jump into projects, figure out what it takes to get it done, and to ask the right questions. Most 2Ls that think they know the business usually don't, and they end up looking like douchey know-it-alls. So, your humbleness is probably a good thing.
posted by jabberjaw at 9:28 AM on May 8, 2010
This book helped me study for interviews for financial internships in college. Maybe it will help you.
posted by anniecat at 9:55 AM on May 8, 2010
posted by anniecat at 9:55 AM on May 8, 2010
Most companies don't mind people being a bit underqualified as long as they are confident in general and in the areas they profess to be. For example - I was once at a company who didn't hire a freshly graduated math major because he could not graph a linear equation after telling us he took a graphing course of some sort. We would have hired him if he actually knew about the stuff he said he did.
You only ruin it when you say you know stuff, then questions reveal you do not. So you could tell them about what you do know, and they can ask about that and be impressed you know your stuff there. Gently redirect questions to what you know if they are all about what you don't. Underqualified also means "we can pay you less to start" and maybe put "Junior" in front of your title so peoples expectations when dealing with you are not very high. But if you're bright you'll move up the chain fast usually.
posted by meepmeow at 9:59 AM on May 8, 2010
You only ruin it when you say you know stuff, then questions reveal you do not. So you could tell them about what you do know, and they can ask about that and be impressed you know your stuff there. Gently redirect questions to what you know if they are all about what you don't. Underqualified also means "we can pay you less to start" and maybe put "Junior" in front of your title so peoples expectations when dealing with you are not very high. But if you're bright you'll move up the chain fast usually.
posted by meepmeow at 9:59 AM on May 8, 2010
I don't know how much finance background you have, but I found Financial Markets to be a pretty good survey of the players in financial markets and the sorts of contracts they make. You don't have much time, so skip the math stuff and the guest lectures.
Actually, there's one guest lecture you might want to watch, if you can stomach the bad oration: Andrew Redleaf describes how his fund closely read bond contracts for profit. Summary: Some bond contracts contain adverse event clauses, where holders are due face value immediately. Adverse events like bankruptcy, options backdating, etc. Bonds normally trade at a discount of face value, so if you get face value immediately thats a percentage gain in a very short period. So they go hunting for bonds with both adverse events and adverse event clauses. Due to the public nature of courts, people catch on and market pricing takes this opportunity away from them. That's when they start looking for evidence of backdating on their own to cause adverse events.
But keep in mind that even smart guys like this one can get taken in. His lecture also mentions partnering with another fund to privatize an airline. What the lecture doesn't tell you is that that deal went south a few months after this lecture was given, and the partner firm was arrested for running a Ponzi scheme. Oops.
As for the legal background, that's why we have internships. It's a learning opportunity. As long as you're confident you can learn the material it shouldn't matter too much to the firm that you're not already an expert.
posted by pwnguin at 11:40 AM on May 8, 2010
Actually, there's one guest lecture you might want to watch, if you can stomach the bad oration: Andrew Redleaf describes how his fund closely read bond contracts for profit. Summary: Some bond contracts contain adverse event clauses, where holders are due face value immediately. Adverse events like bankruptcy, options backdating, etc. Bonds normally trade at a discount of face value, so if you get face value immediately thats a percentage gain in a very short period. So they go hunting for bonds with both adverse events and adverse event clauses. Due to the public nature of courts, people catch on and market pricing takes this opportunity away from them. That's when they start looking for evidence of backdating on their own to cause adverse events.
But keep in mind that even smart guys like this one can get taken in. His lecture also mentions partnering with another fund to privatize an airline. What the lecture doesn't tell you is that that deal went south a few months after this lecture was given, and the partner firm was arrested for running a Ponzi scheme. Oops.
As for the legal background, that's why we have internships. It's a learning opportunity. As long as you're confident you can learn the material it shouldn't matter too much to the firm that you're not already an expert.
posted by pwnguin at 11:40 AM on May 8, 2010
Don't worry about being underqualified. Firms can afford to be very choosy right now, and you've gotten this far because they think you're qualified. So just keep thinking that they'll train you if they like you and concentrate on making a good impression by demonstrating that you work hard, learn quickly, are interested in the firm's practice areas (read up on the firm's practice areas, read the wall street journal, put together some questions that show you've thought about the firm), and would be a good fit with the firm culture. Again, don't worry that you don't know everything already. They want to know that you're smart, hard-working, and won't be annoying.
posted by studioaudience at 1:12 PM on May 8, 2010
posted by studioaudience at 1:12 PM on May 8, 2010
They know you're just a rising 2L and they still called you in for the interview. Hold on to that thought.
posted by Neekee at 4:26 PM on May 8, 2010
posted by Neekee at 4:26 PM on May 8, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Remember - you fit all the listed criteria, and they've offered you an interview. That means they haven't dismissed you for not having a finance background.
Be honest with what you do and don't know. If you can read up on the basics before heading to interview, if it crops up they'll likely be impressed.
The best technique for answering a question such as "what is X" is to admit that you don't know, and try and think of a reasonable thing that it could be, based on what you know. Trying to bluff it without knowing about it will not work well, and neither will a blank "I have no idea". By having a reasonable attempt at figuring it out ("well, I'm not really sure, but it sounds like it could be XYZ"), you may find that the concept is explained to you. If you can show you grasp it quickly, that's probably a large tick in the box. Even if you're unsuccessful with that firm, you'll also now have some knowledge that you can apply in your next application.
posted by djgh at 7:16 AM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]