My mind just went kaput

May 1, 2010 6:01 PM

I'm craving thrilling music in the vein of free jazz and I don't know where to start.

I just listened to Machine Gun by the Peter Brötzmann Octet and it melted my mind. I need lots more music like it.

I'm not necessarily looking for free jazz, though right now I'm suspecting that all the kinds of music I'm looking for will be somewhat rooted in the genre. Essentially what I'm looking for is music that by its nature requires virtuosic musicians to play off one another, that creates tension by pushing them to their limits.

As I said: I'm kind of thinking that free jazz will be big here, because other music to some extent has rhythms and structures that make it easier for the people involved, and that's what I don't want. But if there's other music that has the same thrilling tension, then by all means recommend it.

Beyond Brötzmann, I have a passing knowledge of John Zorn, and the whole Mr. Bungle ensemble produces music of that sort, though usually not quite as unrestrained. Beyond that I'm a blank slate.

posted by Rory Marinich to media & arts (44 answers total)

Jazz-influenced technical / progressive metal?
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:13 PM on May 1, 2010

That could work. Any recommendations?
posted by Rory Marinich at 6:16 PM on May 1, 2010

Other people will be recommending specific artists; I'm going to recommend a book, The Penguin Guide to Jazz Recordings. Machine Gun is part of their core collection, and here's what they say about it:

Machine Gun is one of the most significant documents of the European free-jazz underground. The three saxophonists fire off a ceaseless round of blasting, overblown noise, built on the continuous crescendo managed by Bennink and Johansson and, as chaotic as it sounds, the music is informed by an iron purpose and control. Although the recording is crude, the grainy timbre is a fitting medium for the music. In 1990, Machine Gun was reissued on CD with two alternative takes which match the original version in their fearsome power. Whenever we return to it, the power of this amazing record seems as potent as ever.

If that resonates with your response, you should be able to trust their reviews, which I have found consistent and always helpful. When I got the first edition many years ago, I knew nothing about European jazz and little about free jazz, and now that I've bought five editions of the Guide and hundreds of CDs based on their recommendation, I'm infinitely richer in jazz knowledge and appreciation (though poorer in money!). Give it a try, you won't be disappointed.
posted by languagehat at 6:18 PM on May 1, 2010 [8 favorites]

Trust the group over my recommendations:

http://www.last.fm/tag/Technical Metal
http://www.last.fm/tag/Technical Death Metal
http://www.last.fm/tag/Technical Thrash Metal
http://www.last.fm/tag/Progressive metal
http://www.last.fm/tag/progressive death metal
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:32 PM on May 1, 2010

Cecil Taylor
The Sun Ra Arkestra
Albert Ayler
John Coltrane
posted by koeselitz at 6:48 PM on May 1, 2010 [2 favorites]

Some artists unlikely to be in The Penguin Guide which may appeal to someone who likes Machine Gun:

The Flying Luttenbachers mix new wave, free jazz, and speed metal - Weasel Walter, the brains and drummer behind the group, is a huge Brötzmann fan.

Masami Akita of Merzbow (be sure to listen past 2:00 in, the piece transforms radically) was a free jazz drummer before he became the godfather of harsh noise - a warning though, most people hate Merzbow, but if you can get over the bombast (or appreciate it for its own sake) he does borrow heavily from free jazz structure and rhythms. I would not describe what he does as pushing artists to their limits though, more pushing musical technology, form and intensity to their limits.

In the European art music vein, Iannis Xenakis, Edgard Verese, Helmut Lachenmann and Krzysztof Penderecki wrote music with complex structures requiring intense and virtuosic performance - not all that jazzy though.
posted by idiopath at 6:54 PM on May 1, 2010 [2 favorites]

SYR8: Andre Sider Af Sonic Youth is a loosely structured 57-minute improvisation between the four members of Sonic Youth, Jim O'Rourke, free jazz saxophonist Mats Gustafsson, and noise godhead Merzbow. Give it a try; it made my mind go kaput.
posted by Houyhnhnm at 6:57 PM on May 1, 2010 [1 favorite]

I'm completely cool with Merzbow. I hadn't heard 1930, though: Thanks for the recommendation.

And that's the umpteenth time I've heard Xenakis come up when I've asked a question about music. I guess I should get around to finally giving him a listen. Also Varese, who I know inspired Zappa; I've listened to him before and not had it click, but I'll give it another go.
posted by Rory Marinich at 6:58 PM on May 1, 2010

languagehat's rec is a great one.

I'd add Art Ensemble of Chicago to the list. Black Unity Trio. Archie Shepp. Pharoah Sanders. Journey in Satchidanda by Alice Coltrane.

Some of those are more groove oriented than John Zorn, but you might dig 'em.
posted by sleepy pete at 6:58 PM on May 1, 2010

by "new wave" above I meant "no wave", sorry
posted by idiopath at 7:01 PM on May 1, 2010

Supersilent
posted by rhizome at 7:45 PM on May 1, 2010

Anything by Evan Parker, who was on Machine Gun, but particularly his
great trio with Barry Guy and Paul Lytton. The interplay between the three
is so quick and virtuosic you hear something different everytime you listen.
posted by Zebtron at 8:03 PM on May 1, 2010

Otomo Yoshihide's New Jazz Orchestra (ONJO). Everything from chanteuse ballads (in French, sung by Kahimi Karie) to walls of harsh noise. The double CDs are insane.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:07 PM on May 1, 2010

Disclosure: I know these guys. But if I didn't, I would absolutely still recommend them to you. They're unreal. They do have grooves, but they are nutso and sound like they would be falling apart sometimes if not for the sheer virtuosity of the players.

Zevious
posted by nosila at 8:13 PM on May 1, 2010 [1 favorite]

Brötzmann himself hasn't stopped putting out music and you could probably do pretty well tracing out his discography and playing partners.

The Chicago Octet and Chicago Tentet albums are more tuneful than Machine Gun but still free; his trio albums with Fred van Hove and Han Bennink (I have this one), and Nipples, are worth your while.

He has an all-reeds trio with Mats Gustafsson and Ken Vandermark called Sonore which is similarly face-melting. You would probably also like Gustafsson's band The Thing, and possibly also the band Zu, who've collaborated with Gustafsson.

Gustafsson has played in duos with Hamid Drake, and in trio with Barry Guy and Raymond Strid; all the albums from those lineups I've heard (For Don Cherry for the duo and Tarfala and You Forget to Answer for the trio) are worthy.

Gustafsson had a trio before The Thing called the AALY Trio that Vandermark joined frequently, on albums like I Wonder if I Was Screaming and Hidden in the Stomach (which has an excellent rendition of "Song for Ché").

Vandermark's work as a leader is often more structured than completely free but his FME (= Free Music Ensemble) with Drake and Kent Kessler plays, well, free music.

In general groups on the Chicago/Scandinavia axis seem to play this kind of stuff. Balls-out blowing isn't as much in style as it once was, I think. Peter Evans does it. Paul Flaherty (e.g. in duo with Chris Corsano). A rhythm section involving Ingebrigt Håker Flaten or Paal Nilssen-Love is a good sign. A lot of the stuff here—Rempis Percussion Quartet, Crimetime Orchestra, Cold Bleak Heat, Original Silence, Naked Future, Bruise. The Scorch Trio. Offonoff is half of Original Silence.

While I haven't heard it, the name itself recommends Archie Shepp's Fire Music.

Um. Paul Dunmall, Stevie Wishart, and Paul Lytton's In Your Shell Like. & of course other things of theirs (at least of Dunmall's and Lytton's).

Expanding on on idiopath's Flying Luttenbachers suggestion, Weasel has a bunch of releases under his own name that are more overtly free jazz–oriented (toward the end the Luttenbachers became more brutal prog than free jazz)—the Weasel Walter Quartet, his album with Mary Halvorson, etc.

You also need stuff by Kaoru Abe (a saxophonist). The only thing I have by him is a twenty-minute duo with percussionist Yamazaka Hiroshi from Jazz Bed, but it's a killer.

I also recommend paging through the archives of Destination: Out!.

While you might like Penderecki and Lachenmann, don't expect much in the way of Brötz-style face-melting.
posted by kenko at 8:15 PM on May 1, 2010 [3 favorites]

Evan Parker is so prolific that "anything by Evan Parker" isn't really helpful. You might end up with his trio disc with Paul Bley and Barre Phillips, and you will find that VERY disappointing if you're looking for more in the vein of Machine Gun. Likewise one must be cautious with Otomo Yoshihide, since you might end up with some barely-audible onkyo. But the New Jazz Orchestra (and New Jazz Quintet) are killer. The NJQ did a track-by-track cover of Eric Dolphy's Out to Lunch, which itself rules.
posted by kenko at 8:17 PM on May 1, 2010

And … Otomo Yoshihide has collaborated with The Thing! See the album Shinjuku Crawl.

You can end up at practically any musician, starting from practically any other.

Ettrick, a local-to-me duo of saxophone and death-metal-style drumming (except each member plays both sax and drums so sometimes it's a sax duo and sometimes a drum duo), also recommended! So many recommendations. Say, Infinite Horned Abomination. And if you want sinister-sounding album titles there's Kevin Drumm's Sheer Hellish Miasma (harsh noise).

Oh, and I realized I messed up the musicians in FME. FME is Vandermark, Paal Nilssen-Love, and Nate McBride. The group with Drake and Kessler is the also-recommended DKV Trio.
posted by kenko at 8:24 PM on May 1, 2010

Brotzmann is a really prolific guy, so I'll mention a few of my favorites: Balls, Noise of Wings, The Wels Concert and the Die Like a Dog Quartet's Little Birds Have Fast Hearts. And you mentioned John Zorn, but, like many of the people mentioned, he's recorded in a wide variety of genres. I think that, specifically, his group Naked City sounds like it would be up your alley.

And jazz in general and free jazz in particular is wildly, promiscuously collaborative, and there are a ton of recordings available. If you like Machine Gun, check out other recordings featuring those players (Han Bennink is probably my favorite of 'em) and other large ensembles (the Little Huey Creative Music Ensemble and the Exploding Star Orchestra are two of my favorites). Free players tend to congregate in, for want of a better word, scenes (e.g., the Europeans of the '60s (Brotzmann, Alexander von Schlippenbach, Evan Parker, etc.), the BYG/Actuel crowd (bunch of AEC folks, Archie Shepp, etc.), NYC downtown players (Zorn, William Parker, etc.), the Scandinavia/Chicago connection (Mats Gustafson, Ken Vandermark, Hamid Drake, etc.), but there's a lot of fludity between them, and it's a small world, and respected players with long careers often wind up playing at one time or another with all kinds of people--free-jazz collaborations cry out for a really amazing infographic.

A couple other people/groups I like that haven't been mentioned: Luther Thomas, Charles Gayle, Borah Bergman, The Thing.
posted by box at 8:33 PM on May 1, 2010

free-jazz collaborations cry out for a really amazing infographic.

Yesssssssss.

IIRC, box is somehow associated with an act that you might also like, Aufgehoben.
posted by kenko at 8:35 PM on May 1, 2010

And … Otomo Yoshihide has collaborated with The Thing! See the album Shinjuku Crawl.

There's a new The Thing + Otomo + Seoul electronics improvisers coming out soon, btw.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 9:04 PM on May 1, 2010

Everything from chanteuse ballads (in French, sung by Kahimi Karie) to walls of harsh noise.

Wait, you aren't thinking of "Eureka", are you? That's a Jim O'Rourke song.
posted by kenko at 9:07 PM on May 1, 2010

She does other ones. My memory might not be that good on this, though. When I played with them, she did a bunch of French stuff (and "Eureka," of course).
posted by Joseph Gurl at 9:25 PM on May 1, 2010 [1 favorite]

On a New York City kind of tip, you might like Little Women and Zs.
posted by avianism at 9:34 PM on May 1, 2010

When I played with them

Ok, wowed.
posted by kenko at 9:48 PM on May 1, 2010

John Zorn has been heavily involved with two clubs in New York, Stone and Tonic, and a lot of the groups that frequent (or, in Tonic's case, frequented) these joints are in the sonic vein you're interested in. Groups like:
The Claudia Quintet.
Jim Black and Alas No Axis.
Tim Berne (and his various projects).
Mike Formanek.
Chris Speed.
Human Feel.
Mark Dresser.
And one of my favorite composers that I think you may especially enjoy, Lee Hyla.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:12 PM on May 1, 2010

Oh, and Susie Ibarra. And Uri Caine. Dave Douglas. Bill Frisell. Carla Kihlstedt.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:17 PM on May 1, 2010

Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey
posted by GPF at 10:31 PM on May 1, 2010

Brötzmann himself hasn't stopped putting out music and you could probably do pretty well tracing out his discography and playing partners.

Yep! I saw Brötzmann with Hamid Drake last weekend and he shows no signs of slowing down.

Here's a previous question you might like.

Irene Schweizer (here with Drake)

You might want to follow Peter Margasak's blog. He covers this kind of music pretty often, with a focus on what's going on in Chicago's fertile scene. Here's his best for 2009.
posted by hydrophonic at 10:37 PM on May 1, 2010

The first time I heard Henry Threadgill's stuff off "Too Much Sugar for a Dime," I had the similar face-melty experience. It's kind of a John-Phillips-Sousa-filtered-through-free-jazz-and-dual-electric-guitar-attack sort of thing. Here's a live clip from one of the songs off the album.
posted by GamblingBlues at 3:10 AM on May 2, 2010

Yeah, the Penguin Guide is pretty much untouchable. I'd get that and then supplement it with Wire Magazine for what's going on right now.
posted by Kattullus at 3:28 AM on May 2, 2010

Nthing the Penguin guide. Very decent suggestions, in the main.

Art Ensemble of Chicago. Nice Guys. Urban Bushmen. This stuff is the shit.
posted by Wolof at 8:29 AM on May 2, 2010

I got to this party kind of late, despite this being the vein of music for which I have an unusual affection and some experience in playing. Oh well.

I'm seconding just about everyone I've seen above. You could also throw in some Last Exit, Painkiller, and mid-period Praxis. Those really play up the intersection between metal intensity and free jazz cacophony.

Andrew D'Angelo, Trevor Dunn and Jim Black did an album called Skadra Degis two years back that is more in the free jazz vein, but I thought was especially strong. Big Satan's Souls Saved Hear is also a favorite and Tim Berne might be someone whose body of work you find interesting (as mentioned above). Sleepy Time Gorilla Museum might also be of some interest to you, though I've found they're a real love it/completely despise it kind of band for people. YMMV.
posted by el_lupino at 10:17 AM on May 2, 2010

Oooh. I should have also mentioned Sleepytime Gorilla Museum. It's another project with Carla Kihlstedt - and they are fucking awesome.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:46 AM on May 2, 2010

???

The Claudia Quintet? Susie Ibarra? Uri Caine?

I dig their music, but … what? As recommendations for someone primarily guided by Machine Gun, these seem like extreme stretches. Little Women and Last Exit are much more on the mark.

Carla Kihlstedt (whose non-SGM music I admittedly don't care for)? What do you recommend starting with, the Tin Hat Trio? 2 Foot Yard? The Compass, Log and Lead? (Possible exception for Cosa Brava, but that's not really an improv project anyway.)
posted by kenko at 12:47 PM on May 2, 2010

kenko: "As recommendations for someone primarily guided by Machine Gun, these seem like extreme stretches."

The OP referred to structure, tension, and virtuosity, and never mentioned face melting machismo. He even hinted at interest in things without any free jazz element that met those criteria of structure and virtuosity and tension.
posted by idiopath at 1:01 PM on May 2, 2010

In particular, the same "thrilling tension". That doesn't have to mean face-melting machismo, but I don't really find it in the Claudia Quintet, or in Kihlstedt's music (certainly as a leader), or in Ibarra's music that I've heard, for that matter (though it's been a while, I admit, since I listened to her discs with Derek Bailey).

On their own, "structure, tension and virtuosity" narrow things down nearly not at all. You want structure, tension, and virtuosity? I recommend Messiaen's Vingt regards sur l'enfant-Jésus, Reich's Reed Phase, Satie's Vexations and a couple of Feldman's hours-long pieces (limiting cases of structure, and believe me, you WILL feel tense), and, I don't know, every other violin concerto ever.
posted by kenko at 1:21 PM on May 2, 2010

Late John Coltrane and Eric Dolphy is what got me crazy for this kind of thing.

The Chicago free jazz guys are great, and they play with Brotzmann a lot. I could name you a bunch of names, but a better idea might be to start out with a couple of names:

maybe Fred Lonberg-Holm, Tim Daisy, Frank Rosaly

and type those names into myspace. They've all got their music up on their myspace sites, and they're all friends with most of the musicians they play with, so you can find your own personal favorites.

And, for what it's worth, you can go to Chicago any week of the year and see five kickass free jazz shows, one after another. When I waitressed in Chicago one summer, I spent every Sunday night at the Hungry Brain. Mondays Skylark or Myopic Books. Tuesdays at Rodan. Wednesdays The Hideout. Thursdays Elastic. Then I'd waitress all night Friday and Saturday and make enough money to do it all again. Here's the calendar I used.

The guys in Chicago are also really friendly and inclusive and glad to have fans and talk to people at shows. Heck, Tim Daisy invited me to his birthday party!

As a side note, I think that free jazz actually does 'kaput' your brain. To follow each individual musician playing, at the same time as you follow each musician reacting to every other musician, is an incredible feat of cerebral processing. At first, your brain just kind of explodes in the attempt. But as you get better at it, your processing abilities improve in general.

Listening to free jazz is like musical weight-lifting. (And maybe cocaine.)
posted by sunnichka at 1:42 PM on May 2, 2010 [2 favorites]

I miss Chicago.

:(
posted by kenko at 2:12 PM on May 2, 2010 [2 favorites]

kenko: "I miss Chicago. :("

Tell me about it. I used to go to the shows at myopic every single fucking week (I was too young for any of the clubs).
posted by idiopath at 2:24 PM on May 2, 2010

This is kind of a diversion from the main question, but since a lot of you are bringing up live shows I figure I'll ask: Any clubs that play music like this in Philadelphia?
posted by Rory Marinich at 8:47 PM on May 2, 2010

A search quickly found this performance by Weasel Walter (definitely worth seeing live).

And less of a sure bet, but at the same venue I found a performance a couple of the other out on a limb suggestions I made.
posted by idiopath at 9:02 PM on May 2, 2010

(I hate looking for concerts in far off cities, now I am so jealous)
posted by idiopath at 9:05 PM on May 2, 2010

Yes, there are; I know a guy who's had some in his basement apparently. I'll email him and ask.
posted by kenko at 9:22 PM on May 2, 2010

Results of inquiry:

"""
The two major presenters of free jazz in Philly are Ars Nova Workshop (arsnovaworkshop.com) and Bowerbird (bowerbird.org). There is also Philly Sound Forum (phillysoundforum.org/) All the established free jazz greats play ANW when they come through town, as well as most of the young NYC players; BB books a larger spectrum centered on more European lowercase free improv, but sometimes programming some jazz, noise, and new music, including a lot more Philly players. PFS tends more toward experimental electronic but a lot of jazz and improve too. They are run by Mark Christman, Dustin Hurt, and Jesse Kudler, respectively. Get on their mailing lists/facebook lists/myspace lists, etc.

Aside from that, there are random shows that happen unaffiliated with these series, but still in that same social network. Get on individual players' mailing lists/myspace friends/etc. and you find out about those right quick.

E.g., there is an uncoming show at a gallery, Pageant Soloviev (6th and Bainbridge), featuring Chakra Khan/Air Pirates (Julius Masri, Nick Millevoi duo), some Dan Blacksberg led group, and some dudes from Chicago. May 15th.

Oh yeah, one more.

Avant Ascension is a series at the Tritone, every third Wednesday of the month. Usually two-three ensembles followed by an open jam session.
"""
posted by kenko at 8:45 AM on May 3, 2010 [1 favorite]