How to have a dreamless sleep?
April 15, 2010 7:13 PM Subscribe
Looking for advice on how to have a dreamless sleep. For the past year or so, there hasn't been a night where I haven't had really intense dreams, usually very unpleasant, that I invariably remember the next day. It means I never wake up feeling rested or in a very good mood. Any suggestions on how to have a better sleep? As a side note, I'm not on any drugs (sleep/otherwise) and don't wish to be.
I've heard that having dairy before bedtime can be difficult for your body to digest while you're sleeping and pop you out of REM sleep more frequently, thus making it so you remember your dreams more vividly. I haven't really researched if this is accurate, so it could just be an urban legend.
posted by sharkfu at 7:22 PM on April 15, 2010
posted by sharkfu at 7:22 PM on April 15, 2010
Would you consider melatonin? It's helped me have a much calmer sleep.
posted by BlahLaLa at 7:23 PM on April 15, 2010
posted by BlahLaLa at 7:23 PM on April 15, 2010
Exercise, particularly swimming, in the evening does a good job of knocking me out.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:29 PM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:29 PM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I also came in to suggest exercise. When I've completely worn myself out physically, I tend to have the kind of sleep which, once I've woken up, seems to have been very restful, and also seems to have gone by in an instant, without dreams.
posted by ocherdraco at 7:31 PM on April 15, 2010
posted by ocherdraco at 7:31 PM on April 15, 2010
I would try playing cheerful/calming music softly while you sleep, maybe classical? Also seconding the suggestion to wear yourself out and fall into a deeper sleep.
posted by wild like kudzu at 7:32 PM on April 15, 2010
posted by wild like kudzu at 7:32 PM on April 15, 2010
Hey Grimble, gee that's a great book. I also love Grimble at Christmas.. anyway, I digress.... A lot of bad dreams can be provoked by being overheated whilst sleeping. I didn't know this myself till a couple of years ago... of course it makes sense when you think about it! So, I'd say go to bed dressed a bit cooler than you would normally and see if that helps.
posted by taff at 7:48 PM on April 15, 2010
posted by taff at 7:48 PM on April 15, 2010
Research shows that "restful dreamless sleep" is a contradiction in terms. People who are prevented from dreaming go nuts in about a week. (Among other things, they start to hallucinate.) Dreaming is the subjective experience of a background process in our brains which seems to involve organizing our memories, and it takes a long time and it has to happen often.
However, usually we don't remember our dreams. After a dream ends, there's a brief window where if you wake up you'll remember the dream. If you don't, you'll forget it.
What you really want is to sleep and not to remember your dreams. That's quite normal, and it is healthy. The problem here is that you're restless when you sleep, and it's waking you up. So you remember your dreams, and you're blaming them. But they are not the source of your problems.
There are a lot of reasons why you may be having trouble sleeping, ranging from the simple (an uncomfortable bed, a noisy neighbor) to the complex (sleep apnea) and we can't really diagnose you.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:50 PM on April 15, 2010 [6 favorites]
However, usually we don't remember our dreams. After a dream ends, there's a brief window where if you wake up you'll remember the dream. If you don't, you'll forget it.
What you really want is to sleep and not to remember your dreams. That's quite normal, and it is healthy. The problem here is that you're restless when you sleep, and it's waking you up. So you remember your dreams, and you're blaming them. But they are not the source of your problems.
There are a lot of reasons why you may be having trouble sleeping, ranging from the simple (an uncomfortable bed, a noisy neighbor) to the complex (sleep apnea) and we can't really diagnose you.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:50 PM on April 15, 2010 [6 favorites]
Interesting - I have the opposite situation going on. I rarely, if ever, have dreams that I can remember, and when I do they're not very lucid.
I don't know exactly why this is, but I can tell you that I eat a lot of fast food, a lot of meat, and I use copious amounts of salt. I like cigars and whiskey, and I go to bed late and get up late. Of course, most of the things I do are also unhealthy. So I'm probably not worth emulating in that respect.
One thing I have noticed is that melatonin triggers both dreams and nosebleeds for me, and the one time I took a Vitamin-B supplement before bed I had some vivid, crazy dreams. So maybe reducing the B vitamins in your diet could work? But again, it's probably not a good idea to deprive yourself of vitamins, either.
I don't really have a bedtime routine, but I always type up a quick list of all the things that I need to do before I shut down. Is the reason you're having bad dreams maybe due to the fact that there's just too much on your mind?
posted by Despondent_Monkey at 7:58 PM on April 15, 2010
I don't know exactly why this is, but I can tell you that I eat a lot of fast food, a lot of meat, and I use copious amounts of salt. I like cigars and whiskey, and I go to bed late and get up late. Of course, most of the things I do are also unhealthy. So I'm probably not worth emulating in that respect.
One thing I have noticed is that melatonin triggers both dreams and nosebleeds for me, and the one time I took a Vitamin-B supplement before bed I had some vivid, crazy dreams. So maybe reducing the B vitamins in your diet could work? But again, it's probably not a good idea to deprive yourself of vitamins, either.
I don't really have a bedtime routine, but I always type up a quick list of all the things that I need to do before I shut down. Is the reason you're having bad dreams maybe due to the fact that there's just too much on your mind?
posted by Despondent_Monkey at 7:58 PM on April 15, 2010
Dreamless sleep doesn't help anything. In fact, it's just about impossible to sleep dreamlessly. Dreaming sleep is the sleep when you actually move least of all, at least if you're sleeping normally and healthily - your eyes just move a lot. Scientists have attempted to induce dreamless sleep, to isolate and study dreams, but they found that they couldn't; they'd lightly shake a person whenever their body entered REM sleep, just enough to shake them out of REM but not enough to awaken them, and they found that, after a while like this, people tend to enter REM sleep immediately, almost as soon as their head hits the pillow - so that it's impossible to produce a person who simply never dreams.
In fact, my experience is that when people describe restless sleep and ascribe it to bad dreams, it's almost always a result of a later stage of this sort of REM isolation. That is: in a weird way, your lack of solid sleep is caused by your inability to form a healthy dreaming habit, in a manner of speaking. The body seems to need to routinely enter the REM state; when it doesn't, it tries to get there quicker, more rapidly, over shorter periods of time, or during less restful sleep. That's what it means when you feel as though you're having restless dreams, and therefore tossing and turning regularly; your body is in a sort of REM crisis mode, so it takes the natural tossing and turning that you do at the beginning of falling asleep (that everybody naturally does) and tries to dream during that.
Of course, sometimes there can be things going on in your life that lead to this psychosomatically, but it sounds like you don't feel that that's likely. I do think it might be worth talking to a psychiatrist a bit, if only to maybe get some perspective on the whole mental aspect of this.
In any case, though, I think you need to keep in mind that dreams are not the enemy, and are not keeping you from a good sleep. The ironic thing is that even terrible dreams can be relatively restful in their own way. I think the problem is the way you're dreaming.
I've been an lifelong insomniac on and off - that's why I've thought a bit about this - and there are a few things that have helped me:
Give yourself nine hours every night. It can seem like a lot, but (at least for me) stress and the attendant sense that I need to try to get good sleep can really ruin my sleep. It's a bit of a vicious circle: I keep thinking about how much I want to be sleeping well, and I toss and turn and can't really sleep right. So I've found that if I give myself a long, long time to fall asleep - that extra hour - I can have a bit more breathing room, some space to relax a bit.
Absolutely stop eating caffeine and sugar. I know - this may seem harsh, and very, very extreme, but if you know the pain and suffering of not sleeping well as it sounds like you do, you may find this measure to be lifesaving. You might not even need to avoid sugar and caffeine for more than a few weeks while your body syncs back into a sleep schedule, but believe me, you'll be amazed at the huge impact those things have on your muscular tension and edginess - and fixing those things is the name of the game when it comes to tossing and turning during sleep.
Tai Chi, I've found, is superbly relaxing, and doing a bit every day has really helped me to be calmer and more peaceful. I think it can really help with tough sleeping habits.
Hope some of this helps. Good luck!
posted by koeselitz at 7:59 PM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
In fact, my experience is that when people describe restless sleep and ascribe it to bad dreams, it's almost always a result of a later stage of this sort of REM isolation. That is: in a weird way, your lack of solid sleep is caused by your inability to form a healthy dreaming habit, in a manner of speaking. The body seems to need to routinely enter the REM state; when it doesn't, it tries to get there quicker, more rapidly, over shorter periods of time, or during less restful sleep. That's what it means when you feel as though you're having restless dreams, and therefore tossing and turning regularly; your body is in a sort of REM crisis mode, so it takes the natural tossing and turning that you do at the beginning of falling asleep (that everybody naturally does) and tries to dream during that.
Of course, sometimes there can be things going on in your life that lead to this psychosomatically, but it sounds like you don't feel that that's likely. I do think it might be worth talking to a psychiatrist a bit, if only to maybe get some perspective on the whole mental aspect of this.
In any case, though, I think you need to keep in mind that dreams are not the enemy, and are not keeping you from a good sleep. The ironic thing is that even terrible dreams can be relatively restful in their own way. I think the problem is the way you're dreaming.
I've been an lifelong insomniac on and off - that's why I've thought a bit about this - and there are a few things that have helped me:
Hope some of this helps. Good luck!
posted by koeselitz at 7:59 PM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ditto to Chocolate Pickle's observations, and others'.
Dreaming is necessary for your brain. No one knows why, really, but there are plenty of neurological and psychological theories. And most people most of the time just never remember them.
As an anecdotal data point, however, I noticed that I remember dreams for a little while after waking up only if I had woken up in the middle of a dream, especially if an alarm clock is involved; I assume I broke my sleep cycle unnaturally, that is. I've since developed a stable sleep schedule where I get to bed at a standard time and manage to wake myself up naturally at right around the same time every morning, painlessly, and with very little mental "shock." (I really hate alarms, but I guess that's besides the point.)
You don't mention any other possible issues and things related to your sleep patterns, though. Do you wake up regularly in the middle of the night or are you remembering stuff when you finally get out of bed in the morning? Insomnia? Etc.
posted by Ky at 8:06 PM on April 15, 2010
Dreaming is necessary for your brain. No one knows why, really, but there are plenty of neurological and psychological theories. And most people most of the time just never remember them.
As an anecdotal data point, however, I noticed that I remember dreams for a little while after waking up only if I had woken up in the middle of a dream, especially if an alarm clock is involved; I assume I broke my sleep cycle unnaturally, that is. I've since developed a stable sleep schedule where I get to bed at a standard time and manage to wake myself up naturally at right around the same time every morning, painlessly, and with very little mental "shock." (I really hate alarms, but I guess that's besides the point.)
You don't mention any other possible issues and things related to your sleep patterns, though. Do you wake up regularly in the middle of the night or are you remembering stuff when you finally get out of bed in the morning? Insomnia? Etc.
posted by Ky at 8:06 PM on April 15, 2010
Response by poster: Some context:
I don't think I have any other possible sleep issues. I fall asleep easily and don't wake up in the middle night. I am in law school (read: worst two years of my life so far) so a lot of late nights. If I don't set my alarm I just won't wake up until noon.
I have to admit that I am guilty of coffee/energy drink abuse, but I always try to keep the caffeine consumption in the am. But I definitely will try to ween myself off.
Thank you for all the helpful suggestions so far!
posted by Grimble at 8:14 PM on April 15, 2010
I don't think I have any other possible sleep issues. I fall asleep easily and don't wake up in the middle night. I am in law school (read: worst two years of my life so far) so a lot of late nights. If I don't set my alarm I just won't wake up until noon.
I have to admit that I am guilty of coffee/energy drink abuse, but I always try to keep the caffeine consumption in the am. But I definitely will try to ween myself off.
Thank you for all the helpful suggestions so far!
posted by Grimble at 8:14 PM on April 15, 2010
Grimble: “I don't think I have any other possible sleep issues. I fall asleep easily and don't wake up in the middle night. I am in law school (read: worst two years of my life so far) so a lot of late nights. If I don't set my alarm I just won't wake up until noon.”
Yeah, what you're describing, I think, is almost certainly related to muscle tension. Your body tenses, and naturally tosses and turns, during the time it's in REM; thus, you have shaken and disturbing dreams, and your sleep isn't restful.
Anything you can do to alleviate muscle tension is what you need. Cutting out caffeine and sugar can really help here - that's why I mentioned it. Also, massages, and regular exercise.
posted by koeselitz at 8:17 PM on April 15, 2010
Yeah, what you're describing, I think, is almost certainly related to muscle tension. Your body tenses, and naturally tosses and turns, during the time it's in REM; thus, you have shaken and disturbing dreams, and your sleep isn't restful.
Anything you can do to alleviate muscle tension is what you need. Cutting out caffeine and sugar can really help here - that's why I mentioned it. Also, massages, and regular exercise.
posted by koeselitz at 8:17 PM on April 15, 2010
I have horribly lucid dreams if I don't watch what I eat at night, ie, eat unhealthy foods, eat rich/difficult to digest foods, eat too much/too close to when I go to sleep. Alcohol doesn't help either.
I'd suggest trying to keep a journal to see which behaviors or combinations thereof may co-relate with the lucid dreams.
Do you have any good, healthy outlet for stress? Law school is a biatch (I'm a 1L) and the stress can manifest itself in different ways, such as your dreams.
posted by Neekee at 8:22 PM on April 15, 2010
I'd suggest trying to keep a journal to see which behaviors or combinations thereof may co-relate with the lucid dreams.
Do you have any good, healthy outlet for stress? Law school is a biatch (I'm a 1L) and the stress can manifest itself in different ways, such as your dreams.
posted by Neekee at 8:22 PM on April 15, 2010
Seriously, make sure you rule out sleep apnea and diabetes. The vivid, intense dreams could be a symptom of a medical problem.
posted by Soliloquy at 8:22 PM on April 15, 2010
posted by Soliloquy at 8:22 PM on April 15, 2010
Yeah, if you have medical insurance, see about getting a sleep study done. It shouldn't require too much time on your end; probably an overnight on a weekend. It also doesn't mean you'll end up on drugs; it'll just be helpful to know if there's something physiological going on.
posted by Fui Non Sum at 8:39 PM on April 15, 2010
posted by Fui Non Sum at 8:39 PM on April 15, 2010
Nthing cutting out the caffeine, but I have to come in and recommend against taking melatonin (this comes in various commercial forms, the most prevalent of which seems to be marketed as "MidNite" in the US). I take it to help me get to sleep, and it definitely helps in that area, but the problem is that it gives me extremely vivid, intense, often terrifying dreams! I have always had some pretty nutso dreams, the product of a complex inner-life trying to organize itself at night I suppose, so I didn't realize it was the melatonin giving me the craziest dreams I've had since puberty, until I read somewhere that vivid dreams can be a side effect. Although it doesn't happen to everyone, it might just make your dreams worse.
Try making sure that you're optimizing your waking up. In case you have an especially horrible dream that you can't shake, make sure that you have something immediately cheering, grounding, or special to get your mind into the real world. Maybe change the sound of your alarm, or read a poem, or eat your favorite fruit? Something to help you start your day off right, regardless of what you dreamt about. Also make sure that you do get checked out for sleeping problems if you can. You might think you're sleeping straight through the night, but if you're remembering multiple different dreams a night, you're probably waking up more than once and you just don't remember it. This could be a symptom of sleep apnea (do you snore?) or a very uncomfortable bed, or any manner of things.
posted by Mizu at 8:44 PM on April 15, 2010
Try making sure that you're optimizing your waking up. In case you have an especially horrible dream that you can't shake, make sure that you have something immediately cheering, grounding, or special to get your mind into the real world. Maybe change the sound of your alarm, or read a poem, or eat your favorite fruit? Something to help you start your day off right, regardless of what you dreamt about. Also make sure that you do get checked out for sleeping problems if you can. You might think you're sleeping straight through the night, but if you're remembering multiple different dreams a night, you're probably waking up more than once and you just don't remember it. This could be a symptom of sleep apnea (do you snore?) or a very uncomfortable bed, or any manner of things.
posted by Mizu at 8:44 PM on April 15, 2010
An hour of laps in the pool, followed by fifteen minutes in the hot pool, and your muscles will be all loopy and soft and ready for sleep.
I found that tossing in the night interrupted my dreams often enough that I was able to remember them. A certain Nordic space mattress has almost completely eliminated that for me.
posted by Sallyfur at 10:39 PM on April 15, 2010
I found that tossing in the night interrupted my dreams often enough that I was able to remember them. A certain Nordic space mattress has almost completely eliminated that for me.
posted by Sallyfur at 10:39 PM on April 15, 2010
Ugh! That happened to me when I tried to quit smoking with the patch years ago, and I didn't realize you're supposed to take it off at night. Crazytown! You mentioned you're not taking any drugs, but are you taking any herbal remedies or vitamins or anything? I only ask because a lot of people don't think of a vitamin as being a drug.
Your follow-up mention of this being "the worst two years of my life so far" probably goes a long way towards explaining the problem, though. Stress frequently equals bad dreams. Kind of by definition, really.
posted by ErikaB at 10:54 PM on April 15, 2010
Your follow-up mention of this being "the worst two years of my life so far" probably goes a long way towards explaining the problem, though. Stress frequently equals bad dreams. Kind of by definition, really.
posted by ErikaB at 10:54 PM on April 15, 2010
The stress thing is probably it, but someone I know got crazy dreams, and also headaches, from a propane leak. If your dreams started shortly after moving somewhere, I'd consider environmental causes s another possibility.
posted by salvia at 11:44 PM on April 15, 2010
posted by salvia at 11:44 PM on April 15, 2010
Your problem is that you wake to an alarm clock. When you wake to an alarm, you are caught in the middle of the dream and right when you shouldn't be woken/when you are most asleep. This causes you to remember the dream and be more groggy then necessary.
Your sleep goes in cycles. Average people have about hour an a half cycles. You need to to find out your sleep cycle and adjust your wakeup time to it. Give yourself half an hour to fall asleep and thus set your alarm for about 2 hours later, three and a half later, five, etc. depending on the time you need to awaken. If you can figure out how long your sleep cycles are exactly you will be able to finesse this. The best way to wake up without remembering dreams is to wake up without an alarm clock. The body likes routines. Wake up the same time every day.
There is some research out there on sleep cycles but I have to go to bed. I'm getting tired and if I miss it, I'll be up another hour and a half trying to fall asleep.
posted by GregorWill at 12:21 AM on April 16, 2010
Your sleep goes in cycles. Average people have about hour an a half cycles. You need to to find out your sleep cycle and adjust your wakeup time to it. Give yourself half an hour to fall asleep and thus set your alarm for about 2 hours later, three and a half later, five, etc. depending on the time you need to awaken. If you can figure out how long your sleep cycles are exactly you will be able to finesse this. The best way to wake up without remembering dreams is to wake up without an alarm clock. The body likes routines. Wake up the same time every day.
There is some research out there on sleep cycles but I have to go to bed. I'm getting tired and if I miss it, I'll be up another hour and a half trying to fall asleep.
posted by GregorWill at 12:21 AM on April 16, 2010
Get your blood pressure checked and under control. That made amazing changes for me.
posted by stuartmm at 12:54 AM on April 16, 2010
posted by stuartmm at 12:54 AM on April 16, 2010
Neekee: "I have horribly lucid dreams if I don't watch what I eat at night, ie, eat unhealthy foods, eat rich/difficult to digest foods, eat too much/too close to when I go to sleep. Alcohol doesn't help either."
Lucid dreams are not dreams that are very intense and vivid. Lucid dreams involve knowing that you are dreaming and being able to control the dreams. I've done it, but I don't know how... it was spontaneous.
Have you thought about trying to focus on happy things when you're trying to fall asleep?
posted by IndigoRain at 12:57 AM on April 16, 2010
Lucid dreams are not dreams that are very intense and vivid. Lucid dreams involve knowing that you are dreaming and being able to control the dreams. I've done it, but I don't know how... it was spontaneous.
Have you thought about trying to focus on happy things when you're trying to fall asleep?
posted by IndigoRain at 12:57 AM on April 16, 2010
Acknowledging that you are not looking for any drugs, it is still worth mentioning that marijuana does a fantastic job for many people of making dreams muted and unremarkable.
posted by jameslavelle3 at 4:43 AM on April 16, 2010
posted by jameslavelle3 at 4:43 AM on April 16, 2010
Nthing the idea of exercise. When I was a college freshmen, I went through a spell of having terrible, violent dreams every time I went to sleep. Even when I took a ten minute nap, I'd have a nightmare. So I saw a counselor about it, who suggested that I wear myself out with exercise in the late afternoon (not too near bedtime). I didn't think it would work, but I tried it anyway, and the frequency of my nightmares drastically decreased. I'm sure that at the time I was experiencing a lot of unacknowledged stress and anxiety due to transitioning to a tough college. Endorphins + exhaustion helped a lot.
posted by zoetrope at 6:44 AM on April 16, 2010
posted by zoetrope at 6:44 AM on April 16, 2010
In my own experience:
- Stress really does cause vivid and often unpleasant dreams. You say you are in law school. Chances are you'll have at least one dream of showing up for an exam you've forgotten you had (and forgotten to study for!), going to class without your pants on, and so forth.
- Melatonin often gives me weird and, again, unpleasant dreams. Is your dosage too high? My doc says the standard 5 mg dosage is too much for most people; 2 or 2.5 mg should do.
- Too much rich food before bedtime ruins my sleep. A slice of turkey, some crackers, and milk are fine; a big plate of curry is not.
- In the hour or so before you go to bed, read soothing books (no horror or true crime), take a hot bath, listen to calming music. This can really make a difference.
- Get checked for sleep apnea. Especially if your unpleasant dreams include sensations of drowning, claustrophobia or similar. Do your sleep partners report that you snore and/or stop breathing, gasp, gurgle, or make other unpleasant sounds in your sleep? Do you wake up with a dry mouth and a headache? Sleep apnea is absolutely, positively nothing to fool around with - bad dreams are the least of the problems it can cause.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:31 AM on April 16, 2010
- Stress really does cause vivid and often unpleasant dreams. You say you are in law school. Chances are you'll have at least one dream of showing up for an exam you've forgotten you had (and forgotten to study for!), going to class without your pants on, and so forth.
- Melatonin often gives me weird and, again, unpleasant dreams. Is your dosage too high? My doc says the standard 5 mg dosage is too much for most people; 2 or 2.5 mg should do.
- Too much rich food before bedtime ruins my sleep. A slice of turkey, some crackers, and milk are fine; a big plate of curry is not.
- In the hour or so before you go to bed, read soothing books (no horror or true crime), take a hot bath, listen to calming music. This can really make a difference.
- Get checked for sleep apnea. Especially if your unpleasant dreams include sensations of drowning, claustrophobia or similar. Do your sleep partners report that you snore and/or stop breathing, gasp, gurgle, or make other unpleasant sounds in your sleep? Do you wake up with a dry mouth and a headache? Sleep apnea is absolutely, positively nothing to fool around with - bad dreams are the least of the problems it can cause.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:31 AM on April 16, 2010
I asked a question last year about achieving Lucid Dreaming though technology and techniques. Nobody is sure about the veracity or philosophical underpinnings of doing it, but it has been pretty well established as a viable treatment for terrible nightmares. There are lots of books mentioned in that thread that can teach you how to do it.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:00 AM on April 16, 2010
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:00 AM on April 16, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
It's a lot of work (dream journal, lots of building towards and teaching yourself how and practice, practice, practice!) but you can learn techniques to reliably initiate lucid dreaming, and then learn to actively participate and control those dreams.
posted by carsonb at 7:21 PM on April 15, 2010 [2 favorites]