Where have web manners gone?!
April 15, 2010 6:34 AM Subscribe
I'm a bit frustrated and surprised by women who frequent online dating sites. Can you correct my impression?
I've been dating online for over a year. I've had a mix of great and good connections, made friends. Nothing worth complaining about. Haven't met "The One", but dating is dating, and that's fine.
What really continues to surprise me is this: I get that ladies aren't going to respond to all incoming messages. But once a connection has been made, for instance, I send a message, she sends a friendly response. Cool, we are having a dialog, just like we would at a club.
But all too often, somewhere along the way, the gal simply stops responding! It would be like the gal in the club, stopping in mid-conversation and walking away. Kinda rude! I get it if she isn't "feeling it", or if she feels us as not compatible, or perhaps they are more seriously connecting to another dude. All fair reasons! But why not just make that clear? "Nice meeting you! Good luck!"
I've always made it a point to be really clear if I felt this way with a gal who is showing interest, but I didn't feel the "click". And on the one occasion a girl did send a "I don't see us as being compatible" message, which I really appreciated!
So have manners died online? Should I just be less sensitive and play the same way with others? Is this just standard protocol?
I am happy to see OKCupid using a system where it "tells" on people by showing how frequently they tend to respond to messages.
Am I missing something in this equation? I am open to you MeFi ladies correcting me in my understanding of all things dating related!
I've been dating online for over a year. I've had a mix of great and good connections, made friends. Nothing worth complaining about. Haven't met "The One", but dating is dating, and that's fine.
What really continues to surprise me is this: I get that ladies aren't going to respond to all incoming messages. But once a connection has been made, for instance, I send a message, she sends a friendly response. Cool, we are having a dialog, just like we would at a club.
But all too often, somewhere along the way, the gal simply stops responding! It would be like the gal in the club, stopping in mid-conversation and walking away. Kinda rude! I get it if she isn't "feeling it", or if she feels us as not compatible, or perhaps they are more seriously connecting to another dude. All fair reasons! But why not just make that clear? "Nice meeting you! Good luck!"
I've always made it a point to be really clear if I felt this way with a gal who is showing interest, but I didn't feel the "click". And on the one occasion a girl did send a "I don't see us as being compatible" message, which I really appreciated!
So have manners died online? Should I just be less sensitive and play the same way with others? Is this just standard protocol?
I am happy to see OKCupid using a system where it "tells" on people by showing how frequently they tend to respond to messages.
Am I missing something in this equation? I am open to you MeFi ladies correcting me in my understanding of all things dating related!
I am open to you MeFi ladies correcting me in my understanding of all things dating related!
Just as an FYI. I log in to OKCupid every few months or so and see that it still says I respond to email often. At this point I never respond to email there. I am not so certain that OKC is not just telling you what you want to hear.
There have been several threads about online dating where it's become clear that this is an intereaction with no set etiquette. Many people have said that they'd prefer just a non-response to someone saying they weren't feeling it if they were just in the email conversation stage of things [and this is why people stress meeting quickly if you feel that you have a connection and not drawing out the email bit]. Women [that I recalled, may have been men also] have reported getting negative "well fuck you anyway" or "but whhyyyyyyyy" responses when they've tried to write people a "thanks but no thanks" message.
So, it seems that people have really varying expectations about whether a "we're not compatible" message is appropriate or annoying. SO while I don't think dropping off the face of the earth is standard, it's definitely one of a few responses you're likely to get.
posted by jessamyn at 6:39 AM on April 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
Just as an FYI. I log in to OKCupid every few months or so and see that it still says I respond to email often. At this point I never respond to email there. I am not so certain that OKC is not just telling you what you want to hear.
There have been several threads about online dating where it's become clear that this is an intereaction with no set etiquette. Many people have said that they'd prefer just a non-response to someone saying they weren't feeling it if they were just in the email conversation stage of things [and this is why people stress meeting quickly if you feel that you have a connection and not drawing out the email bit]. Women [that I recalled, may have been men also] have reported getting negative "well fuck you anyway" or "but whhyyyyyyyy" responses when they've tried to write people a "thanks but no thanks" message.
So, it seems that people have really varying expectations about whether a "we're not compatible" message is appropriate or annoying. SO while I don't think dropping off the face of the earth is standard, it's definitely one of a few responses you're likely to get.
posted by jessamyn at 6:39 AM on April 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
I am marrying a girl that i met through online dating.
The rule is try to get her number as soon as possible. Use online dating only as a way to start .
ALWAYS call them as soon as you can.
posted by majortom1981 at 6:43 AM on April 15, 2010 [5 favorites]
The rule is try to get her number as soon as possible. Use online dating only as a way to start .
ALWAYS call them as soon as you can.
posted by majortom1981 at 6:43 AM on April 15, 2010 [5 favorites]
Maybe she honestly got distracted by something or had computer problems. It can't hurt to try again (without expressing any frustration).
Beyond that, she's not interested. Move on. There's no reason to analyze it. It's not important.
She was mildly interested enough to at least respond to you and continue the conversation for a little while, but she wasn't feeling it. Why should she expend the extra effort to say, "This isn't going to work out"? The two of you have never met and have no real connection. People's feelings would probably be hurt more in the long run if everyone was always explicit about these things at such a latent stage. Anyway, she owes nothing to you.
Another thing is that sending an explicit "I'm not interested" message is sort of irrational if you think about it. Let's say a woman sends you a message and you don't find her very appealing. So you don't want to pursue things. But is there really a 0% chance you'd ever be interested in her? Maybe there's just a 10% chance. You might change your mind someday. Why send an "I'm not interested" message and guarantee that nothing will ever happen? (I'm using messages as an example even though I know you're talking about active IM conversations. The same principle applies.)
I don't really know what you mean about OKCupid "telling on people." Also, like jessamyn, I've found their indications of people's responsiveness to be unreliable.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:47 AM on April 15, 2010
Beyond that, she's not interested. Move on. There's no reason to analyze it. It's not important.
She was mildly interested enough to at least respond to you and continue the conversation for a little while, but she wasn't feeling it. Why should she expend the extra effort to say, "This isn't going to work out"? The two of you have never met and have no real connection. People's feelings would probably be hurt more in the long run if everyone was always explicit about these things at such a latent stage. Anyway, she owes nothing to you.
Another thing is that sending an explicit "I'm not interested" message is sort of irrational if you think about it. Let's say a woman sends you a message and you don't find her very appealing. So you don't want to pursue things. But is there really a 0% chance you'd ever be interested in her? Maybe there's just a 10% chance. You might change your mind someday. Why send an "I'm not interested" message and guarantee that nothing will ever happen? (I'm using messages as an example even though I know you're talking about active IM conversations. The same principle applies.)
I don't really know what you mean about OKCupid "telling on people." Also, like jessamyn, I've found their indications of people's responsiveness to be unreliable.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:47 AM on April 15, 2010
Yes, this is standard protocol in online dating.
posted by meerkatty at 6:51 AM on April 15, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by meerkatty at 6:51 AM on April 15, 2010 [7 favorites]
And I really need to add: it is NOT just women who do this.
posted by meerkatty at 6:52 AM on April 15, 2010 [10 favorites]
posted by meerkatty at 6:52 AM on April 15, 2010 [10 favorites]
So have manners died online? Should I just be less sensitive and play the same way with others?
Honestly, in your post you sound high maintenance and somewhat demanding. If you're projecting that in the conversations, I can see women just moving on and wanting to avoid saying anything direct for fear of having to deal with drama.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 AM on April 15, 2010 [17 favorites]
Honestly, in your post you sound high maintenance and somewhat demanding. If you're projecting that in the conversations, I can see women just moving on and wanting to avoid saying anything direct for fear of having to deal with drama.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 AM on April 15, 2010 [17 favorites]
Maybe she honestly got distracted by something or had computer problems. It can't hurt to try again (without expressing any frustration).
Also, maybe there was an earthquake in her area and she is currently pinned under furniture, just out of reach of the computer.
Seriously, it's not that rude. Just like at a club, a woman who is not interested in talking to you has zero imperative to do so. The only difference is that a woman you are dealing with face-to-face might feel bound by their deeply ingrained social etiquette to disengage themselves politely, but on the internet you are not a real person to them, and their having responded once or twice already out of curiosity does not compel them to let you down easily.
One of the hardest parts about online dating is the feeling of having to say "no" over and over and over to lots of different people, in lots of different ways. After a while, you stop putting yourself through that and just treat it like the game that it is.
posted by hermitosis at 7:00 AM on April 15, 2010 [7 favorites]
Also, maybe there was an earthquake in her area and she is currently pinned under furniture, just out of reach of the computer.
Seriously, it's not that rude. Just like at a club, a woman who is not interested in talking to you has zero imperative to do so. The only difference is that a woman you are dealing with face-to-face might feel bound by their deeply ingrained social etiquette to disengage themselves politely, but on the internet you are not a real person to them, and their having responded once or twice already out of curiosity does not compel them to let you down easily.
One of the hardest parts about online dating is the feeling of having to say "no" over and over and over to lots of different people, in lots of different ways. After a while, you stop putting yourself through that and just treat it like the game that it is.
posted by hermitosis at 7:00 AM on April 15, 2010 [7 favorites]
Yes, this is standard protocol in online dating.
Yep. Consider the alternative - would you rather they ended the conversation with "sorry, now we've got to know each other a bit better I don't really like you" or "sorry, I was chatting with three different guys and you weren't as interesting or attractive as this other guy I've started dating".
It's just what happens, and overall is best for all involved.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:00 AM on April 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
Yep. Consider the alternative - would you rather they ended the conversation with "sorry, now we've got to know each other a bit better I don't really like you" or "sorry, I was chatting with three different guys and you weren't as interesting or attractive as this other guy I've started dating".
It's just what happens, and overall is best for all involved.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:00 AM on April 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
My experience was that OKCupid became super time consuming pretty quickly. There were points when I was trying to go back and forth with as many as five or six different people at once on there and honestly it felt like it was making my life sort of hectic. I found that if someone was definitely interested in me, they asked me out straight away, and vice versa. Then there were a bunch of others who clearly weren't totally sure if they were interested in me and vice versa. Those interactions tended to consume the most time because the back and forth kinda dragged out as both parties were trying to determine whether or not there was enough interest to go on a non-awkward date. And when you have a job and a life and other people on the website demanding your attention who seem more interested in you or that you are more interested in it's easy to just let conversations with the lukewarms just peter out without drawing them to some kind of finite conclusion.
posted by The Straightener at 7:01 AM on April 15, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by The Straightener at 7:01 AM on April 15, 2010 [11 favorites]
I do not think you're high maintenance, but...manners have died online and you should just accept that these people are not for you, however rudely they go about indicating it. Sorry.
posted by anaelith at 7:07 AM on April 15, 2010
posted by anaelith at 7:07 AM on April 15, 2010
I was only on OKcupid for a short while, but I'd just like to second the notion that a polite "sorry, not interested" email after back and forth sometimes provoked namecalling, mean comments, attempts to convince me I was wrong, etc.
I only had cause to write a few such letters, but I can very much imagine that a run of bad luck with negative responses might make me hesitant to send another "no thank you" email...and then a week goes by...and then it's awkward to break the silence...and then nothing gets sent.
posted by heyforfour at 7:12 AM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I only had cause to write a few such letters, but I can very much imagine that a run of bad luck with negative responses might make me hesitant to send another "no thank you" email...and then a week goes by...and then it's awkward to break the silence...and then nothing gets sent.
posted by heyforfour at 7:12 AM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
There's also a category of people who use the site while in relationships to get an attention fix or who just aren't genuinely looking to make a real world connection and are only interested in using the site for a low level Sim social bar boost. I guess it's good to remember that not everyone has the same expectations or social etiquette rule as you.
posted by edbles at 7:15 AM on April 15, 2010
posted by edbles at 7:15 AM on April 15, 2010
This is a feature, not a bug.
IRL attractive women can feel pretty burdened by the need to be polite, or the choice not to be polite, in rebuffing the (frequent) overtures of men who do not, or no longer, interest them. One of the major attractions of online dating services to them is that its etiquette frees them of that burden. Whatever the scarcity of women you find attractive online, it would be far less if didn't offer them this benefit.
posted by MattD at 7:17 AM on April 15, 2010 [10 favorites]
IRL attractive women can feel pretty burdened by the need to be polite, or the choice not to be polite, in rebuffing the (frequent) overtures of men who do not, or no longer, interest them. One of the major attractions of online dating services to them is that its etiquette frees them of that burden. Whatever the scarcity of women you find attractive online, it would be far less if didn't offer them this benefit.
posted by MattD at 7:17 AM on April 15, 2010 [10 favorites]
Sounds like you're waiting too long to ask them out.
posted by grouse at 7:18 AM on April 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by grouse at 7:18 AM on April 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
I do this so if this perspective helps you OP:
• Because you are using a “meeting in real life” analogy, I am going to flip things around a bit. Do you send an immediate message and in your follow-up email provide offers or sex (or inappropriate pictures, pictures that you wouldn’t want your grandmother or mother to see)? Not saying that you do this, but there are men that do and this is outside the expectation of interacting in real life. If you meet someone in a bar, typically, that isn’t the second sentence out of a guy’s mouth or the guy doesn’t remove his clothing and show you body parts. So yes, abrupt cut off of communication.
• Is the conversation really, really boring. Let’s say you met someone in a bar and let’s say that the person starts talking ad nauseam about their herd of kitty cats (not saying that cats are bad). What would you do if that person walked away for a few minutes? You probably would not be there when they return. Okay, I’ve run across men that want to tell me a lot of about a TV show or ask me about my dates with other guys on the site. Sorry but I just get bored. We probably wouldn’t be able to hold a conversation in real life. I try to ignore parts of the conversation first, or change it, but they keep talking about the herd of cats
• Just meet after a few emails. I do this because it is hard to email forever… I usually offer to meet if the conversation is pleasant after a couple emails. Maybe you can do the same? If you are exchanging 20 emails and refuse to meet, it just gets hard.
posted by Wolfster at 7:21 AM on April 15, 2010
• Because you are using a “meeting in real life” analogy, I am going to flip things around a bit. Do you send an immediate message and in your follow-up email provide offers or sex (or inappropriate pictures, pictures that you wouldn’t want your grandmother or mother to see)? Not saying that you do this, but there are men that do and this is outside the expectation of interacting in real life. If you meet someone in a bar, typically, that isn’t the second sentence out of a guy’s mouth or the guy doesn’t remove his clothing and show you body parts. So yes, abrupt cut off of communication.
• Is the conversation really, really boring. Let’s say you met someone in a bar and let’s say that the person starts talking ad nauseam about their herd of kitty cats (not saying that cats are bad). What would you do if that person walked away for a few minutes? You probably would not be there when they return. Okay, I’ve run across men that want to tell me a lot of about a TV show or ask me about my dates with other guys on the site. Sorry but I just get bored. We probably wouldn’t be able to hold a conversation in real life. I try to ignore parts of the conversation first, or change it, but they keep talking about the herd of cats
• Just meet after a few emails. I do this because it is hard to email forever… I usually offer to meet if the conversation is pleasant after a couple emails. Maybe you can do the same? If you are exchanging 20 emails and refuse to meet, it just gets hard.
posted by Wolfster at 7:21 AM on April 15, 2010
I think the problem is you're thinking of this as a binary thing when it is much more fluid than that. People don't go through each individual and decide yes or no. They chat and are intrigued and something happens or doesn't...
To use your party metaphor, don't think of it as you and the person you're interested in having a one-on-one conversation that she either has to continue or end. Think of it as a big group conversation, where you are one of the people talking, and over the evening, people start to pair off. You may not end up talking with the person you had your eye on, but she doesn't need to explicitly make it clear she's not interested. Maybe later in the evening you'll run into each other by the punch bowl and pick up the conversation again. Or maybe she's left with the guy who was standing next to you. Either way, she never had to go around the room and make sure everyone was clear she wasn't into them. Possibly she wasn't, possibly she just didn't really know and someone else got there first, possibly she decided to just go home and watch letterman.
Basically, I would say until you meet or talk on the phone, don't consider it equivalent to having a one-on-one conversation.
posted by mdn at 7:21 AM on April 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
To use your party metaphor, don't think of it as you and the person you're interested in having a one-on-one conversation that she either has to continue or end. Think of it as a big group conversation, where you are one of the people talking, and over the evening, people start to pair off. You may not end up talking with the person you had your eye on, but she doesn't need to explicitly make it clear she's not interested. Maybe later in the evening you'll run into each other by the punch bowl and pick up the conversation again. Or maybe she's left with the guy who was standing next to you. Either way, she never had to go around the room and make sure everyone was clear she wasn't into them. Possibly she wasn't, possibly she just didn't really know and someone else got there first, possibly she decided to just go home and watch letterman.
Basically, I would say until you meet or talk on the phone, don't consider it equivalent to having a one-on-one conversation.
posted by mdn at 7:21 AM on April 15, 2010 [4 favorites]
Sorry for the multi-commenting, but I'd just like to say that MattD makes a really, really good and important point.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:28 AM on April 15, 2010
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:28 AM on April 15, 2010
You're messaging too many times. One or two online messages, then suggest a few date ideas and times, and give her your number.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:32 AM on April 15, 2010
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:32 AM on April 15, 2010
I married a guy I met online (not on OKCupid). He sent me his phone number in the second email. I called him, we set up a date, done. If I'd hung up on him, that would have been rude, but email is asynchronous. I rarely had the patience to respond to the many, many other guys who emailed me, even if they seemed interesting at first glance.
posted by desjardins at 7:32 AM on April 15, 2010
posted by desjardins at 7:32 AM on April 15, 2010
So, about two years ago I hit OKCupid really heavily for a year and a half. Tons of dates, some morphed into fun but short-lived flings, and then a six month relationship, a couple more flings, and finally The One who I am moving in with in a couple months.
I'd like to think I understand the site and online dating pretty well at this point, so a few pointers:
People frequently stop mid-"conversation". It sucks, but it's part of the game. Usually it's either because they don't have time or they've found someone they're really into and are "done" with the site. The simple truth is that most people are completely self-involved and the moment their needs are filled, they could care less about actually following up with you. You and I might be exceptions to that rule, but it's how most people you encounter are going to operate.
Think of it this way: if they're that self-centered, you didn't want them anyway.
If, as I suspect, you're going for girls in their early/mid-twenties, this problem is going to be worse - they're bombarded with potential suitors, often to the tune of thirty per day (5-10 of whom are creepy older dudes), possibly higher in dense urban areas. Additionally, the stereotype about girls in this age range is true - to a large degree dating sites are a vehicle for filling their need for attention. That generalization about men being far less mature than women until age 20 is pretty spot-on, and the corollary about women being less mature until about age 28 is, well... often accurate. That won't apply to every individual, of course, and it's very important that you not use it as a reason to form a grudge against your target demographic, but it *is* a point to consider when dating online and I find it helps me not take things personally.
Brevity is key - not just of your initial contact (a 30% return rate is standard, 50% means you've got your game down, but don't kill yourself over short term dry spells), but also the duration of correspondence. Keep it to a few messages back and forth at best, and don't use IM - it's better to not walk into that first date with nothing to learn about the other person, or a ton of (inevitably) false preconceptions. Seal the deal early and meet the girl. Hi, how are you, I like this about you, hey thanks for the return compliment, would you be interested in coffee/ice cream/some other casual activity?
The "ice cream" there brings up an important point: learning to anticipate the person you're writing. Assessing people based upon their profiles is an acquired skill like any other. Some girls are going to be happy that you didn't waste their time and just asked them out to coffee in your initial email. Some are classier, more reserved, and you're going to need a couple emails before popping that question. Some girls are going to think you're an idiot to ask them out for ice cream, some will be thrilled. Dinner is almost universally a bad idea for the first meeting - it's a huge time commitment for someone they've never met. Once you've mastered this, you can expect 50-60% conversion of girls who reply to first dates.
Volume is key - send out a LOT of queries. At a 30% return rate, and a 20% overall conversion (initial letter -> actual date) rate, and with you being single, it's going to take a LOT of initial emails before your calendar is anywhere near full. Volume also helps prevent you from placing too much importance on any one person, and keeps you too overwhelmed to sit and fantasize about someone you've never met, which is Certain Doom.
I could go on, but those are the most important things I wish someone had told me early on. OH! DO NOT SEND REJECTIONS TO GIRLS WHO INITIATE. No matter how politely you word it, a significant minority will explode, flag your conversation, your account, whatever. Fortunately, if you were polite the mods will side with you and totally clean it up for you, but "hell hath no fury" is absolutely true. If a girl initiates and you aren't interested, DO NOT REPLY. I had to learn this the hard way, and the mods sided with me because my "rejection letter was nicer than most *acceptance* letters I've seen on this site", but trust me it's better if you don't go down that road at all.
Hope this helps.
posted by Ryvar at 7:38 AM on April 15, 2010 [21 favorites]
I'd like to think I understand the site and online dating pretty well at this point, so a few pointers:
People frequently stop mid-"conversation". It sucks, but it's part of the game. Usually it's either because they don't have time or they've found someone they're really into and are "done" with the site. The simple truth is that most people are completely self-involved and the moment their needs are filled, they could care less about actually following up with you. You and I might be exceptions to that rule, but it's how most people you encounter are going to operate.
Think of it this way: if they're that self-centered, you didn't want them anyway.
If, as I suspect, you're going for girls in their early/mid-twenties, this problem is going to be worse - they're bombarded with potential suitors, often to the tune of thirty per day (5-10 of whom are creepy older dudes), possibly higher in dense urban areas. Additionally, the stereotype about girls in this age range is true - to a large degree dating sites are a vehicle for filling their need for attention. That generalization about men being far less mature than women until age 20 is pretty spot-on, and the corollary about women being less mature until about age 28 is, well... often accurate. That won't apply to every individual, of course, and it's very important that you not use it as a reason to form a grudge against your target demographic, but it *is* a point to consider when dating online and I find it helps me not take things personally.
Brevity is key - not just of your initial contact (a 30% return rate is standard, 50% means you've got your game down, but don't kill yourself over short term dry spells), but also the duration of correspondence. Keep it to a few messages back and forth at best, and don't use IM - it's better to not walk into that first date with nothing to learn about the other person, or a ton of (inevitably) false preconceptions. Seal the deal early and meet the girl. Hi, how are you, I like this about you, hey thanks for the return compliment, would you be interested in coffee/ice cream/some other casual activity?
The "ice cream" there brings up an important point: learning to anticipate the person you're writing. Assessing people based upon their profiles is an acquired skill like any other. Some girls are going to be happy that you didn't waste their time and just asked them out to coffee in your initial email. Some are classier, more reserved, and you're going to need a couple emails before popping that question. Some girls are going to think you're an idiot to ask them out for ice cream, some will be thrilled. Dinner is almost universally a bad idea for the first meeting - it's a huge time commitment for someone they've never met. Once you've mastered this, you can expect 50-60% conversion of girls who reply to first dates.
Volume is key - send out a LOT of queries. At a 30% return rate, and a 20% overall conversion (initial letter -> actual date) rate, and with you being single, it's going to take a LOT of initial emails before your calendar is anywhere near full. Volume also helps prevent you from placing too much importance on any one person, and keeps you too overwhelmed to sit and fantasize about someone you've never met, which is Certain Doom.
I could go on, but those are the most important things I wish someone had told me early on. OH! DO NOT SEND REJECTIONS TO GIRLS WHO INITIATE. No matter how politely you word it, a significant minority will explode, flag your conversation, your account, whatever. Fortunately, if you were polite the mods will side with you and totally clean it up for you, but "hell hath no fury" is absolutely true. If a girl initiates and you aren't interested, DO NOT REPLY. I had to learn this the hard way, and the mods sided with me because my "rejection letter was nicer than most *acceptance* letters I've seen on this site", but trust me it's better if you don't go down that road at all.
Hope this helps.
posted by Ryvar at 7:38 AM on April 15, 2010 [21 favorites]
A lot of women may have had bad experiences from sending emails like you described: sorry, not interested, good luck. The responses could range from "cool, you too!" to "but why!?! let's try harder! I'll be more interesting! x100", to "you fucking bitch, you wasted my time".
If you want to think of it in 'real-world' terms, consider a girl you meet at a party. You go up to a lady at the punch bowl, start a conversation, back and forth a bit, and then go mingle with other people. If she doesn't come find you the rest of the night, then she's probably having a conversation with someone else. She's not obligated to hunt you down just to tell you that she's not interested - the fact that SHE ISN'T RESPONDING means that she's not interested.
posted by amicamentis at 7:44 AM on April 15, 2010 [6 favorites]
If you want to think of it in 'real-world' terms, consider a girl you meet at a party. You go up to a lady at the punch bowl, start a conversation, back and forth a bit, and then go mingle with other people. If she doesn't come find you the rest of the night, then she's probably having a conversation with someone else. She's not obligated to hunt you down just to tell you that she's not interested - the fact that SHE ISN'T RESPONDING means that she's not interested.
posted by amicamentis at 7:44 AM on April 15, 2010 [6 favorites]
From my past experience as a straight single lady on OKCupid: fellas do this too. All the time.
In fact, I preferred it to the rarer "sorry, I don't think we'll work" message. A lot of people aren't really used to giving or receiving explicit rejections, especially written ones. I had a much easier time figuring that the guy had fallen off the face of the earth or was busy doing other stuff - kind of a gradual tapering-off of hope, rather than abruptly snuffing it out.
Also, during my OKCupid days, I saw a lot of guys complaining on their blogs about never getting responses back from women. Easily one of my top five profile turnoffs. Even if everything else about them seemed great, I automatically wrote off anyone who complained about non-responders.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:55 AM on April 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
In fact, I preferred it to the rarer "sorry, I don't think we'll work" message. A lot of people aren't really used to giving or receiving explicit rejections, especially written ones. I had a much easier time figuring that the guy had fallen off the face of the earth or was busy doing other stuff - kind of a gradual tapering-off of hope, rather than abruptly snuffing it out.
Also, during my OKCupid days, I saw a lot of guys complaining on their blogs about never getting responses back from women. Easily one of my top five profile turnoffs. Even if everything else about them seemed great, I automatically wrote off anyone who complained about non-responders.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:55 AM on April 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
Arrgh. I am guilty of this.
My not responding is more a factor of whats going on in my non internet life and the state of mind that I am currently in more than anything else, however. I do this both with people I may still be interested in, and those that I've determined I wouldn't be compatible with.
I always respond to requests from men to let them know if I am not interested, whether it is a very first contact or if we have been communicating and then I dropped out.
Asking a potential date to let you know if she is not interested (in a polite or witty way) may be an easy way to reduce your frustration level
posted by newpotato at 8:01 AM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
My not responding is more a factor of whats going on in my non internet life and the state of mind that I am currently in more than anything else, however. I do this both with people I may still be interested in, and those that I've determined I wouldn't be compatible with.
I always respond to requests from men to let them know if I am not interested, whether it is a very first contact or if we have been communicating and then I dropped out.
Asking a potential date to let you know if she is not interested (in a polite or witty way) may be an easy way to reduce your frustration level
posted by newpotato at 8:01 AM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
What you're missing in your club analogy is this: you're one of ten men (or 50) standing in a circle around one woman, all jostling for her attention and each sure that when she looks at them or answers a question they're a step closer to getting her number. One of those guys is going to get her number, and two or three might get a polite demurral, but most of them are just going to end up feeling ignored.
posted by nicwolff at 8:12 AM on April 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by nicwolff at 8:12 AM on April 15, 2010 [3 favorites]
If you look back through the history of online dating questions on Ask.Me, you'll find about a 50-50 split between 'Please, tell me what's going on if you decide you don't want to talk to me anymore' and 'I don't want to be told why you don't like me, just disappear into the ether'.
It's not that etiquette has disappeared, it's that it has never been established -- there's no clear consensus on whether it's better to tell someone you aren't interested anymore or just stop responding.
I personally fall on the 'please tell me' side of the line, as you do, but I can certainly understand the other perspective, as well.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:24 AM on April 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's not that etiquette has disappeared, it's that it has never been established -- there's no clear consensus on whether it's better to tell someone you aren't interested anymore or just stop responding.
I personally fall on the 'please tell me' side of the line, as you do, but I can certainly understand the other perspective, as well.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:24 AM on April 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
People frequently stop mid-"conversation". It sucks, but it's part of the game... You and I might be exceptions to that rule, but it's how most people you encounter are going to operate. Think of it this way: if they're that self-centered, you didn't want them anyway.
[...]
OH! DO NOT SEND REJECTIONS TO GIRLS WHO INITIATE. No matter how politely you word it, a significant minority will explode, flag your conversation, your account, whatever. Fortunately, if you were polite the mods will side with you and totally clean it up for you, but "hell hath no fury" is absolutely true. If a girl initiates and you aren't interested, DO NOT REPLY.
Your answer's in there somewhere.
posted by fleacircus at 8:26 AM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
[...]
OH! DO NOT SEND REJECTIONS TO GIRLS WHO INITIATE. No matter how politely you word it, a significant minority will explode, flag your conversation, your account, whatever. Fortunately, if you were polite the mods will side with you and totally clean it up for you, but "hell hath no fury" is absolutely true. If a girl initiates and you aren't interested, DO NOT REPLY.
Your answer's in there somewhere.
posted by fleacircus at 8:26 AM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I sympathize with you - I understand how frustrating this can be. But ... this was my online dating experience.
When I first started online dating, I replied to everyone even if it was to say no thank you. More often than not I'd either get a nasty reply, a scolding for being presumptuous (this was most common - if I'd say something like "I don't see this going anywhere" and the guy would say "Uh, when did we agree we were *trying* to go anywhere?"), another email wanting to know why or just continue the conversation, or a reply as if the guy didn't read what I had written (usually from the guys who said stuff like "wuts up u r sexy").
It was really the nasty replies that put me off of it, though.
posted by Ashley801 at 8:49 AM on April 15, 2010 [5 favorites]
When I first started online dating, I replied to everyone even if it was to say no thank you. More often than not I'd either get a nasty reply, a scolding for being presumptuous (this was most common - if I'd say something like "I don't see this going anywhere" and the guy would say "Uh, when did we agree we were *trying* to go anywhere?"), another email wanting to know why or just continue the conversation, or a reply as if the guy didn't read what I had written (usually from the guys who said stuff like "wuts up u r sexy").
It was really the nasty replies that put me off of it, though.
posted by Ashley801 at 8:49 AM on April 15, 2010 [5 favorites]
I married someone I met from OKCupid. We exchanged somewhere between four and six emails over the course of a couple weeks, and decided to meet pretty early on. I concur with majortom1981's suggestion to move fairly quickly offline. You don't want to get to know a person through emails and chats alone; I'd argue that you can't get to know someone that way, although I realize there have been and will be exceptions.
posted by emkelley at 9:23 AM on April 15, 2010
posted by emkelley at 9:23 AM on April 15, 2010
You've got your real world analogy all wrong. It's not like someone walking away mid-sentence. It's like two people talking with lots of other people around. A third person comes into the conversation and the conversation shifts and leaves out one of the orginal people.
Like many others have stated, get the conversation offline. E-mailing does not equal talking in-person. I almost didn't respond to my now boyfriend's message on an online dating site, but when we met, it was the best first date in the history of first dates. I'm moving in with him in a couple of months.
posted by soupy at 9:35 AM on April 15, 2010
Like many others have stated, get the conversation offline. E-mailing does not equal talking in-person. I almost didn't respond to my now boyfriend's message on an online dating site, but when we met, it was the best first date in the history of first dates. I'm moving in with him in a couple of months.
posted by soupy at 9:35 AM on April 15, 2010
"People frequently stop mid-"conversation". It sucks, but it's part of the game. Usually it's either because they don't have time or they've found someone they're really into and are "done" with the site."
Pretty much, yeah. I was on the site for a month, and in that short time I got upwards of 300 emails (major city, for a data point). It's hard to keep up with that many messages. And then, I found a guy I clicked with, and pretty much just stopped the random, idle email conversations I had already going. And besides, if I had REALLY been clicking with them I would have already asked them for a coffee date.
Anyways, getting married to my okcupid guy, so I don't feel THAT bad.
posted by Windigo at 9:36 AM on April 15, 2010
Pretty much, yeah. I was on the site for a month, and in that short time I got upwards of 300 emails (major city, for a data point). It's hard to keep up with that many messages. And then, I found a guy I clicked with, and pretty much just stopped the random, idle email conversations I had already going. And besides, if I had REALLY been clicking with them I would have already asked them for a coffee date.
Anyways, getting married to my okcupid guy, so I don't feel THAT bad.
posted by Windigo at 9:36 AM on April 15, 2010
My experience with online dating (a variety of sites over the past 5 years or so).. is that the "2 or 3 emails and then communication ceases".. is pretty standard/normal (atleast for online dating).
My belief is that most people who practice online dating want there to be some kind of "progress" within the first week or so. Whether thats phone calls or 1st coffee date .. or something.. they want it to move beyond email.
Personally.. thats not my style (I take much longer to get to know people).. and therefor (among other reasons)..I've had a terrible time with online dating. Nobody wants to take the time to have meaningful conversations.. they just want to pass/fail you and move on. Lame.
posted by jmnugent at 10:33 AM on April 15, 2010
My belief is that most people who practice online dating want there to be some kind of "progress" within the first week or so. Whether thats phone calls or 1st coffee date .. or something.. they want it to move beyond email.
Personally.. thats not my style (I take much longer to get to know people).. and therefor (among other reasons)..I've had a terrible time with online dating. Nobody wants to take the time to have meaningful conversations.. they just want to pass/fail you and move on. Lame.
posted by jmnugent at 10:33 AM on April 15, 2010
As a woman who used to date online, sending any sort of "not interested" or "thanks, but I've found someone else, good luck to you" emails sometimes resulted in the rejected guys sending back crazy psycho insulting shit. It happens often enough that you soon conclude that it's better to just stop writing than to explicitly reject someone, because you don't want to get another one of those emails.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:44 AM on April 15, 2010
posted by Jacqueline at 10:44 AM on April 15, 2010
It is said a couple times upthread, but my guess is that you are emailing too much.
My rule of thumb was to send my phone number on the second (or at the latest, third) email and ask for hers. If we didn't talk before the next email, I stopped (abruptly, no goodbye, yes there are psycho women who can't conceive of being rejected). My profile also said this very explicitly, "I am on this site to date people, not make pen pals. If you just want to talk, please skip me."
I am 41, I have two kids. This is not the most attractive choice for many people, I know. Yet, I had at least a date a week from OKCupid. I'm now living with my super-fantastic girlfriend, thank you OKCupid.
I sent out 10 or so initial contacts each Sunday. My response rate from women in my preferred demographic (28-38, cute, funny, something going on in their lives, not Jewish or Christian, not conservative) was about 25%. If we talked, chance of dating was about 80%.
The worst response I ever got was "I've never had anyone as stupid as you write to me, how could you say xxx? Blah blah blah." That's what I risked for trying to be funny, an amusing slap on the wrist. Hey, if my humor doesn't work for a woman, we weren't a good match.
posted by Invoke at 11:27 AM on April 15, 2010
My rule of thumb was to send my phone number on the second (or at the latest, third) email and ask for hers. If we didn't talk before the next email, I stopped (abruptly, no goodbye, yes there are psycho women who can't conceive of being rejected). My profile also said this very explicitly, "I am on this site to date people, not make pen pals. If you just want to talk, please skip me."
I am 41, I have two kids. This is not the most attractive choice for many people, I know. Yet, I had at least a date a week from OKCupid. I'm now living with my super-fantastic girlfriend, thank you OKCupid.
I sent out 10 or so initial contacts each Sunday. My response rate from women in my preferred demographic (28-38, cute, funny, something going on in their lives, not Jewish or Christian, not conservative) was about 25%. If we talked, chance of dating was about 80%.
The worst response I ever got was "I've never had anyone as stupid as you write to me, how could you say xxx? Blah blah blah." That's what I risked for trying to be funny, an amusing slap on the wrist. Hey, if my humor doesn't work for a woman, we weren't a good match.
posted by Invoke at 11:27 AM on April 15, 2010
I've been trying out the OKCupid site this month, and I started out by politely declining any guy I was bored of messaging (or he'd said something obnoxious, homophobic, or sexist). Then, after multiple unpleasant (either needy, patronizing or angry) responses to that in the span of 3-4 days, I definitely am not going to do it for anyone I haven't met in real life. Plus there's also the issue of getting a ton of mail, and it taking at least 15 minutes to sort that every time I log on, so if I only have a 30 minute window, it's half gone right there. So if I don't want to correspond to a three page message about "the Greatest Book in the World" or your jet-ski or something, the easiest thing and the thing with the most likely fewest negative consequences is to just not respond.
I've actually never heard that "corollary" Ryvar mentioned above about women being more immature in the 20-28 range. (I just tried to Google it, honestly.) It seems to me that the attention-whore types I've known love either A) getting a lot of anonymous attention that they never respond to or B) they respond to absolutely everything, to keep their followers going. But YMMV.
posted by wending my way at 11:27 AM on April 15, 2010
I've actually never heard that "corollary" Ryvar mentioned above about women being more immature in the 20-28 range. (I just tried to Google it, honestly.) It seems to me that the attention-whore types I've known love either A) getting a lot of anonymous attention that they never respond to or B) they respond to absolutely everything, to keep their followers going. But YMMV.
posted by wending my way at 11:27 AM on April 15, 2010
Since we seem to be trying to come up with the best analogy, here's mine.
If you're talking to someone at a party (a man or a woman, not necessarily someone you're attracted to), and this person has actually decided after a couple minutes that the two of you don't have much in common and the conversation's not that interesting, which would you prefer?
(a) They mention they're going to get a drink, leaving the impression they might come back to continue the conversation, but they never do.
(b) They tell you directly: "I don't find you very interesting, and I don't think we have much to talk about, so I'm not going to pursue things any further with you. Sorry about that, and I wish you the best of luck in conversing with other people at this party."
I would strongly prefer (a).
posted by Jaltcoh at 12:03 PM on April 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
If you're talking to someone at a party (a man or a woman, not necessarily someone you're attracted to), and this person has actually decided after a couple minutes that the two of you don't have much in common and the conversation's not that interesting, which would you prefer?
(a) They mention they're going to get a drink, leaving the impression they might come back to continue the conversation, but they never do.
(b) They tell you directly: "I don't find you very interesting, and I don't think we have much to talk about, so I'm not going to pursue things any further with you. Sorry about that, and I wish you the best of luck in conversing with other people at this party."
I would strongly prefer (a).
posted by Jaltcoh at 12:03 PM on April 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's awkward having to tell people you aren't interested.
posted by ishotjr at 12:59 PM on April 15, 2010
posted by ishotjr at 12:59 PM on April 15, 2010
Mod note: comment removed - if you can't answer the question without slagging everyone else in the thread, please do not bother
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:50 PM on April 15, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:50 PM on April 15, 2010
There are a lot of reasons someone would stop replying, and a lot of them involve just kind of forgetting about you. It's not that she's not interested, but...
"Well you got kind of boring with all these messages and other guys were actually asking me out, so I'm done with you."
"I'm meeting other guys I like more, but I want to keep the possibility of you around."
"Oh, I guess I forgot about you..."
"I forgot to check my messages for a week and now I have 80 and oh sheesh you know what, I'm just going to reply to none of them."
Online dating is a SNAFU for everyone involved. Don't take it so personally when people stop responding, you can't treat it the same way you do real life interactions.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 2:45 PM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Well you got kind of boring with all these messages and other guys were actually asking me out, so I'm done with you."
"I'm meeting other guys I like more, but I want to keep the possibility of you around."
"Oh, I guess I forgot about you..."
"I forgot to check my messages for a week and now I have 80 and oh sheesh you know what, I'm just going to reply to none of them."
Online dating is a SNAFU for everyone involved. Don't take it so personally when people stop responding, you can't treat it the same way you do real life interactions.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 2:45 PM on April 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think you've received very good advice and insight here. I am one of the guilty ones that just stopped communicating, and I can tell you that it was not meant to be insulting or malicious. I tended to be on the conservative side when it came to communicating with men on the dating site I chose (in this case, match.com). I have always had a hard time saying "no" or rejecting (for want of a better term) someone. I limited my communications to one or two men who I felt a connection with.
I did end up finding my SO through match.com, and we are extremely happy together (almost a year now and planning to cohabitate and blend families - a success story, if that helps!). That being said, I experienced my share of "disappearing men" as well and tried not to take it personally. I think it's just the medium that can enable us to disappear and reappear, without having to face the person.
Rambling answer to a very good question, I know. I wouldn't take it personally. Good luck - you sound like a nice, respectful person who deserves the same.
posted by mnb64 at 7:43 AM on April 16, 2010
I did end up finding my SO through match.com, and we are extremely happy together (almost a year now and planning to cohabitate and blend families - a success story, if that helps!). That being said, I experienced my share of "disappearing men" as well and tried not to take it personally. I think it's just the medium that can enable us to disappear and reappear, without having to face the person.
Rambling answer to a very good question, I know. I wouldn't take it personally. Good luck - you sound like a nice, respectful person who deserves the same.
posted by mnb64 at 7:43 AM on April 16, 2010
Don't let the conversation linger online, if you like the girl invite her on a date ASAP!
posted by Groovytimes at 1:11 PM on April 16, 2010
posted by Groovytimes at 1:11 PM on April 16, 2010
This is normal. I treat all online contacts as virtual friendships. You may or may not be interesting, but the other guy I got in contact with last week asked me out already and we had a nice time. So I have a new, interesting real life friendship and I haven't bothered to check my messages in whatever dating site I'm on.
There was a really cute guy who seemed really interested a few weeks ago, but suddenly I stopped hearing from him. Whatever, maybe he'll get back in touch, or maybe not. Since we had never met, I really have no idea if I would've liked him in person or not. The same as you.
Don't take online connections seriously, just get information, and a feel for who they are, and meet up in person and then see what happens.
posted by Locochona at 4:15 PM on April 17, 2010
There was a really cute guy who seemed really interested a few weeks ago, but suddenly I stopped hearing from him. Whatever, maybe he'll get back in touch, or maybe not. Since we had never met, I really have no idea if I would've liked him in person or not. The same as you.
Don't take online connections seriously, just get information, and a feel for who they are, and meet up in person and then see what happens.
posted by Locochona at 4:15 PM on April 17, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Life's too short to rely on people returning emails/IMs.
If the girl stops responding move along.
Nothing more complicated about it than that.
posted by dfriedman at 6:36 AM on April 15, 2010 [2 favorites]