Speak up? or Shut up?
April 14, 2010 1:15 PM   Subscribe

Okay, complicated child of divorce question. Context: back in 2008 my parents separated, they are still going through the divorce process. My dad told me the other day that his lawyer described this particular divorce as the worst he has seen in his 30 years as a lawyer. They were married for 34 years, have a 30 something daughter and two twenty something sons (one of them being me).

They had a family business together. They had a house that was sold at a huge loss to another family with permission from the bank. My mom wanted the divorce from my dad for money reasons (although never explicitly stated, and I’m sure it’s much deeper and more complicated but she refuses to explain to anybody).They now both can’t stand each other whatsoever. They have HUGE amounts of debt from mortgaging two properties, a fishing boat etc to fund said small business. Huge history of depression on all sides. Neither have jobs at this point, along with my brother who was just laid off and is now living on unemployment with HUGE school loans. Sister does reasonably well but does not get along with my mom. Brother occasionally talks to mom but it is VERY strained when they do (he went through a period of almost 2 years recently of not speaking to her at all due to resentment over the divorce). So communication is all but destroyed with them.. she won’t even tell them where she is living (presumably because of advice from her friends? Or her laywer?)

I haven’t handled this perfectly, but I’ve managed to stay out of it as much as possible. I CONSTANTLY remind both my mom and my dad that I am not their friend, I am their son, and that they are not to come to me for advice of any kind or any type of proxy communication between the two (or b. My dad has had a hard time understanding that.. my mom not so much, and I am left really resenting them for not acting like adults. Either way, I’m the only one in our family of five that openly talks to everyone in the family on decent terms. We have almost no extended family ( I mean no cousins, and an uncle who doesn’t speak to my mom).
My mom’s job during this marriage was to raise the kids, my dad made tons of money and traveled a lot, so his way of spending more time with the family was to leave his career and start a small business. Well that didn’t work out so well.
So here is the thing. my mom is going after my dad relentlessly and my dad just wants to walk away from it all as amicably as possible (for the most part). Since my mom is going after my dad for everything he’s got (and he’s really got nothing), the lawyer fees in this divorce are at about 50k for each side (a bill neither of them can pay… bill collectors hound them still from their failed business). My mom is seeking ~40K per year in alimony from my dad. Which comes to my question: I can’t understand why my mom is doing this. I’m sure she is mad, but my dad does not have a job and is about half a million dollars in debt at this point that I know of, no exaggeration. Do I say something to my mom? If my dad gets buried for the rest of his life in un-payable debt and possibly even gets sent to jail because my mom is angry.. I know I’ll never forgive her. I already have a hard time even looking at her.. and I pretend that everything is okay. She will NOT respond well to me even bringing this up. But I cant really even talk to her knowing the damage she is creating. On the other hand maybe I’m wrong somehow and she deserves this alimony.. but whatever she can be a really very nasty person and, ya I don’t know what to do: speak up or shut up?

Sorry for the rambling nature of the question.. don't really like thinking about it.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (17 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
Stay out of it.
posted by December at 1:20 PM on April 14, 2010 [12 favorites]


You just stated that you didn't want to be a go between and have told them this. You also stated that your mother really is talking about it. More than likely you do not know the whole story. Stay out of it.
posted by mokeydraws at 1:22 PM on April 14, 2010


Your mother isn't talking about it.
posted by mokeydraws at 1:23 PM on April 14, 2010


Your mother will not be able to unilaterally obtain alimony. Ostensibly your fathers lawyers will zealously advocate on his behalf for a lower alimony figure (or none, I suppose). Judges can order it, within certain income-based and other guidelines, or a mutual agreement might be reached. In any event, protocols apply that generally operate to avoid either party being completely victimized by the process.

My advice to you is to continue to stay as far away from "involved" as possible.
posted by bunnycup at 1:23 PM on April 14, 2010


As someone who was recently in a very, very similar situation (parents divorced, huge family fights, very similar money issues, mother asking for a huge amount of money), I would advise that you stay out of it as much as possible. I doubt that anything good could come out of you getting involved. It's their problem. I know it's really hard to stay away, especially when there's a threat that your dad will be bankrupt by this, but if you don't want to destroy your relationships with your parents, stay out of it.
posted by OLechat at 1:23 PM on April 14, 2010


I don’t know what to do: speak up or shut up? (anonymous)

Shut up. As you put it, "I am not their friend, I am their son, and that they are not to come to me for advice of any kind," so don't compromise your position by then turning around and giving either of them unasked for advice or opinions on these decisions.

Is what your mom doing shitty? Yes it is. But it's her decision, not yours.
posted by ocherdraco at 1:24 PM on April 14, 2010 [4 favorites]


Yes, I agree, stay out of it.

Just to add another perspective though - you say your mother's job was to raise the kids. I'm interpreting that as "she never worked outside the home". Which means that it will be pretty much impossible for her to find a job. So that's probably why she's after alimony.

Also, there are probably a lot of things that went on (on both sides) that you know nothing about. Which is another reason it's best for you to stay out of it.
posted by MexicanYenta at 1:27 PM on April 14, 2010 [5 favorites]


I can’t understand why my mom is doing this. I’m sure she is mad, but my dad does not have a job and is about half a million dollars in debt at this point that I know of, no exaggeration. Do I say something to my mom?

I am not any sort of a lawyer. Parental divorces suck and I am terribly sorry for what you are going through. That said, alimony is even more complicated and my advice is to stay out of it. With my parents [a slightly different situation but the details are just details] I was pretty shocked by what my Mom was asking for/demanding. She then passed it off on her lawyers "well that's just what they do, I have no control" which I thought was even more appalling and I was sorry for asking. My Dad made some noises about how it would be terrible for him which turned out to just be noise. He was fine. He's going through a second divorce and he's making the same noises. I don't really know what to think but I'm better at staying out of things.

My mom’s job during this marriage was to raise the kids

Alimony, when it works right, is supposed to make up for your Mom's time basically doing the job of raising the family while your dad was in the work world, making money and establishing a reputation and doing what he did. Your mom, even if she started now and all other things were equal, could not get up to your dad's earning potential that he has by benefit of having had however many more years in the work world. I know it seems unfair -- and I think it's also true that many alimony settlements are unfair for various reasons and can sometimes skew in ways that seem weird and sexist -- but it's not supposed to be a realistic assessment of what your parents can afford to pay now, it's got more to do with putting a dollar amount on the division between all those years your dad got paid to have a job and your mom did unpaid labor for the business of raising the family they both shared.

My Mom, for example, was completely and totally ripshit that the deal she thought she had with my dad ["you take care of the house/kids/family, I will earn the money which we will then split, forever and ever..."] fell apart. I could not only not reason with her about this, I don't even think I could understand the full force of how she was feeling about it, and I think it's harder for women of my generation to even understand how something like that could happen [on her side] so I stayed quiet.

Your dad will not go to jail because your Mom is angry unless he decides to do some pretty unpleasant acting out on his own. That said, you do not have to agree with what she is doing or even continue to interact with her if you don't want. You might want to take a vacation from family drama for a while and if this means talking to your dad [who is not dramatic] and not talking to your mom [who is] that's totally okay.

And this is the crux. She may deserve the alimony and still be being a terrible person. Or she may not deserve the alimony and not personally believe that and be campaigning anyhow, or a whole bunch of things in-between. If your parents are both using high powered lawyers to get at each other, this sort of thing is, unfortunately, typical [including the "OMG I AM RUINED" talk] and my advice to you is to continue to stay out of it and make your own decisions based on whatever the outcome is about how you want to move forward with your parents. Your Mom will not change her tack based on your opinions on the matter, is my opinion.
posted by jessamyn at 1:33 PM on April 14, 2010 [11 favorites]


As other said, stay out of it. But this:

I can’t understand why my mom is doing this. I’m sure she is mad, but my dad does not have a job and is about half a million dollars in debt at this point that I know of, no exaggeration.


As MexicanYenta pointed out, if your mother raised the kids, then she likely has no job skills or work history. Your father, broke as he is, is probably in a better position to obtain employment than she is, and the reason for alimony is this exact situation--to provide for people who sacrifice their work life for their family life.

If my dad gets buried for the rest of his life in un-payable debt and possibly even gets sent to jail because my mom is angry.. I know I’ll never forgive her.


What if your mother does not get alimony and spends the rest of her life unemployable and in poverty? Would you forgive your dad? You don't say what his idea of settling this amicably is.

You should stay out of it, but it's possible that there is another perspective here that you're not seeing. If I'm wrong, and your mother has great employment prospects then a) you just have to accept that you can't control your parents, and b) a judge probably won't award her alimony anyway.
posted by Mavri at 1:38 PM on April 14, 2010 [4 favorites]


Speak up once, let your mom know in absolutely clear, unmistakable terms how you feel, then stay out of it as much as you can. Something like "I will bring this up once, you owe it to me to listen, then I will never mention it again" as a starter can work, and make sure to make clear the "If my dad gets buried for the rest of his life in un-payable debt and possibly even gets sent to jail because my mom is angry.. I know I’ll never forgive her" part. Don't do it too dramatically, but very matter-of-factly.

Divorce -- along with almost all super-high-stress situations -- causes people to act irrationally, without them realizing it. This is very difficult to deal with, as a family member/loved one, because she has likely created a mental/emotional environment for herself where everything will justify and reinforce her irrationally.

Your goal shouldn't be to change her mind, or influence her in any way; it won't work. Rather, what you're doing is just letting her know exactly how you feel, and how you will respond to certain events. She owes it to you to listen (she is your mother, after all) and you owe it to her to tell her (as it will affect her).

Sorry for the situation you're in, but it sounds like you're doing all the right stuff on your part. Keep your chin up.
posted by Damn That Television at 1:42 PM on April 14, 2010


In my divorce many years ago, my ex tried to get a settlement that was so horrendous that even her own lawyer finally told her, before me and my attorney, You Can Not Ask for More than he makes or Has. And yes, stay out of it.
posted by Postroad at 1:44 PM on April 14, 2010


Nothing you can say will change her.
posted by Billegible at 1:45 PM on April 14, 2010


When my parents divorced, my whole family sort of broke apart and split up into little factions for a while. My two oldest sisters talked to each other and nobody else. My brother was under constant medical supervision of both parents - who were not talking to each other. My other sister disappeared and went to live on a meth ranch out in Arizona or some ridiculous thing. I lived across the country and talked to them all as very little as possible.

In my case, there was a lot less guessing about why it was all going on. But there was unpleasantness and some boundaries had to be set. Like you, I kind of had to say, "Look, I'm you son and I have a relationship with both of you whether you have a relationship with each other. I can't and wont be put in the middle." Worse yet, I went to law school. And everyone's favorite thing to do when they know someone who has been to law school is to test out their legal problems on them. Oy.

I don't talk to them about this stuff even now that everyone is sort of back to being reasonably amicable. I have perfected this silent, blank stare that says, "I have nothing to say about this and am probably not even listening to you anymore." It works wonders. But sometimes, when I'm playing hardball I have to throw in a quick shrug.

Don't get involved. Your mother may be a beast, she may treat your father miserably, and it may actually destroy your relationship with her. Your mother may discover she's not financially stable alone and begin throwing herself at your father for a reconciliation. Your mother may meet an oil tycoon and move to Dubai and never speak to any of you again. But whatever your mother does, and however it ultimately effects your relationship with her, it's not going to make you any happier to get involved at this point.

While your parents are busy working on getting themselves stable in their new lives, I suggest you spend some time being good to yourself.
posted by greekphilosophy at 1:56 PM on April 14, 2010 [1 favorite]


Which comes to my question: I can’t understand why my mom is doing this. I’m sure she is mad, but my dad does not have a job and is about half a million dollars in debt at this point that I know of, no exaggeration. Do I say something to my mom?

You will never be able to understand why she is doing this; she may not understand herself. Stay out of it, and I'm sorry that this is happening at all to you and your family. For what it is worth, my wife's friend's parents are going through an equally hellish divorce (or were until one of them passed away), and the level of animosity went so far beyond levels of reason that it is impossible to conceive what might have inspired it.
posted by davejay at 2:07 PM on April 14, 2010


I went through a similar situation, though not as dramatic.

I disagree with the idea of alimony as "payback" for years of hard work raising a family. That is just one facet of alimony, easily eclipsed by other factors.

(One factor being, for example, that if someone had put their career on hold to raise children, and the youngest are 20 something, if that person were actually interested in a career, they would be many years back into the workforce already, fully capable of self-support.)

But as for actual advice- this is really hard to do, but you have to compartmentalize YOUR relationship with each family member and let each stand on its own. And mourn the loss of "the family" as it once existed, because that is gone now. Resist the temptation to offer advice or encouragement, because it can only backfire. You can offer empathy and sympathy, but only within the confines of "a person you love is going through hard times". People who are going through difficult times, right or wrong, look to their loved ones for validation of the decisions they make. Don't let them get away with it.
posted by gjc at 2:20 PM on April 14, 2010


I CONSTANTLY remind both my mom and my dad that I am not their friend, I am their son, and that they are not to come to me for advice of any kind or any type of proxy communication between the two

Oh, by the way? Keep doing this, don't give in. Too many people don't do what you're doing in this regard.

And I was thinking: your dad may be lying or exaggerating when he says what the lawyer says, to get sympathy from you, or the lawyer meant it in the context of the elaborate nature of the business arrangements and stuff. Disregard comments like that, they're not your concern.
posted by davejay at 2:30 PM on April 14, 2010


For an awful lot of people, money is how we value things and people. So, your Mom may want a bunch of money to make herself feel valuable, to make up for years of being a Mom, a really undervalued role. Maybe she's using money to punish him for whatever he's done that hurts. Maybe he used his role as moneymaker to get his own way, and it's payback time. Maybe her lawyer's a jerk. Maybe she's terrified of being on her own. She may not fully understand it herself.

The adversarial-model legal system makes divorces worse than they have to be. Lots of teevee shows about horrid divorces and few models of healthy divorces. Kids get a rotten deal. As a divorced parent, I can tell you that it isn't easy. You sound like you're dealing with it better than the rest of the family. Sorry it sucks so much and good luck.
posted by theora55 at 2:51 PM on April 14, 2010 [2 favorites]


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