I don't feel like getting up... do I HAVE to?
March 17, 2010 12:12 AM Subscribe
[Militant-Frisco-Bicyclist-Filter] Was I LEGALLY REQUIRED to get up off the curb and allow the Volvo with the handicapped placard to park where I was sitting when there were other spots across the street available?
The other day I and a friend had just gotten a couple of lattes at Cafe Zazo and sat down on the unoccupied curb here, against the ironwork around the tree. Our bikes were locked up to the ironwork. There was plenty of curb space a k-turn away across the not terribly busy street.
Along comes an older guy in a light blue Volvo with a handicapped placard. He angles up to us and starts gesturing I want to park where you're sitting. I proceed to point across the street and indicate You're disturbing our coffee, go park somewhere else, we were here first.
Volvo driver gets this aggrieved look on his face and continues to point at where we're sitting, demanding that we surrender our spot on the curb, with it's pleasant tree shade and back rest. It is not a marked handicapped spot, just a regular curb.
At this point my companion, a non-confrontational NorCalian, can sense me about to dig into my New York upbringing, get up in his (car's) grill about it, and cause a big invective-hurling scene in the street. And I bow to my companions wishes to not do that, and we move to make room for the Volvo.
Were we legally required to get up and move to allow the Volvo to park there? Did his having a handicapped placard make any legal difference
Let's presume I'm an uppity bike commuter who has seen for too many ghost bikes, been verbally threatened with being run over one too many times, and am disinclined to care if a cager has a placard or not. Let's presume my heart is hardened against all motorists, I don't care what their story is, and they'll get from me what the law requires I give them and not an inch more if I can help it.
Next time I find myself in this position, what does the law require me to do? Would I have been within my legal rights to tell the Volvo drive to sod off, we were here first, go find somewhere else to park, and continue to enjoy my coffee in place?
I'm looking for cites from the vehicle code or the like.
The other day I and a friend had just gotten a couple of lattes at Cafe Zazo and sat down on the unoccupied curb here, against the ironwork around the tree. Our bikes were locked up to the ironwork. There was plenty of curb space a k-turn away across the not terribly busy street.
Along comes an older guy in a light blue Volvo with a handicapped placard. He angles up to us and starts gesturing I want to park where you're sitting. I proceed to point across the street and indicate You're disturbing our coffee, go park somewhere else, we were here first.
Volvo driver gets this aggrieved look on his face and continues to point at where we're sitting, demanding that we surrender our spot on the curb, with it's pleasant tree shade and back rest. It is not a marked handicapped spot, just a regular curb.
At this point my companion, a non-confrontational NorCalian, can sense me about to dig into my New York upbringing, get up in his (car's) grill about it, and cause a big invective-hurling scene in the street. And I bow to my companions wishes to not do that, and we move to make room for the Volvo.
Were we legally required to get up and move to allow the Volvo to park there? Did his having a handicapped placard make any legal difference
Let's presume I'm an uppity bike commuter who has seen for too many ghost bikes, been verbally threatened with being run over one too many times, and am disinclined to care if a cager has a placard or not. Let's presume my heart is hardened against all motorists, I don't care what their story is, and they'll get from me what the law requires I give them and not an inch more if I can help it.
Next time I find myself in this position, what does the law require me to do? Would I have been within my legal rights to tell the Volvo drive to sod off, we were here first, go find somewhere else to park, and continue to enjoy my coffee in place?
I'm looking for cites from the vehicle code or the like.
This post was deleted for the following reason: This would be an ok legal question if it wasn't framed as outragefilter. As a result, this whole question is a mess. -- vacapinta
Well, the handicapped placard would only be relevant if you were in a handicapped spot.
Generally, spots are for vehicles. Your bike counts, which is why you can get a DUI on a bicycle. So if your vehicle was in the spot, rather than against the ironwork, you'd have a case. (You'd also be an idiot.)
However, also generally vehicles must always yield to pedestrians. But that usually applies to pedestrians in motion. You were static.
My ultimate sense is that the curb wasn't zoned for being a sitting place. In other words, suppose you had just plopped on down in the center of the sidewalk (or, the cafe had decided to put out chairs and tables). You'd be disrupting foot traffic, and the law would look dimly on that. In this case, you're disrupting more than just foot traffic, but vehicle traffic -- it'd be like having a picnic in a sidewalk.
Now, yes, there's a tree there, that _happens_ to at that time of day drop its shadow right in the path of the car. But suppose it was a different time of day, and the shadow extended over the sidewalk. Could you set up shop under there, blocking foot traffic? No. So probably not car traffic either.
At least, that's my sense. IANAL.
posted by effugas at 12:21 AM on March 17, 2010
Generally, spots are for vehicles. Your bike counts, which is why you can get a DUI on a bicycle. So if your vehicle was in the spot, rather than against the ironwork, you'd have a case. (You'd also be an idiot.)
However, also generally vehicles must always yield to pedestrians. But that usually applies to pedestrians in motion. You were static.
My ultimate sense is that the curb wasn't zoned for being a sitting place. In other words, suppose you had just plopped on down in the center of the sidewalk (or, the cafe had decided to put out chairs and tables). You'd be disrupting foot traffic, and the law would look dimly on that. In this case, you're disrupting more than just foot traffic, but vehicle traffic -- it'd be like having a picnic in a sidewalk.
Now, yes, there's a tree there, that _happens_ to at that time of day drop its shadow right in the path of the car. But suppose it was a different time of day, and the shadow extended over the sidewalk. Could you set up shop under there, blocking foot traffic? No. So probably not car traffic either.
At least, that's my sense. IANAL.
posted by effugas at 12:21 AM on March 17, 2010
As in any confrontation, fixating on one aspect may blind you to an attack on an entirely different front. In this case, you need to be aware that the mere act of sitting on the sidewalk/curb is unlawful in many cities (but not San Francisco, yet).
Having said that, I'd guess that you could be running afoul of section 10.2.24 of the Code of the City of San Francisco:
Having said that, I'd guess that you could be running afoul of section 10.2.24 of the Code of the City of San Francisco:
SEC. 10.2.24. OBSTRUCTING TRAFFIC.posted by Dimpy at 12:31 AM on March 17, 2010
To obstruct traffic without a Special Traffic Permit, to fail to comply with an order to remove an obstruction to traffic upon the demand of a Police Officer, Parking Control Officer or other authorized City employee, or to obstruct traffic in violation of the terms of a Special Traffic Permit. Each hour or portion thereof during which the obstruction continues shall constitute a separate offense. (71b, 193, 194.3)
Response by poster: -Blah, blah blah
I'm sorry, was a million miles away. Did you have something about the vehicle code you wanted to add?
-22507.8(b), loser.
"Obstruct or block designated handicapped parking space, except as provided."
Wasn't a designated handicapped spot, douchebag. It was a plain old regular curb. I mentioned that in the original question.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:33 AM on March 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry, was a million miles away. Did you have something about the vehicle code you wanted to add?
-22507.8(b), loser.
"Obstruct or block designated handicapped parking space, except as provided."
Wasn't a designated handicapped spot, douchebag. It was a plain old regular curb. I mentioned that in the original question.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:33 AM on March 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Why don't you go to your local police station and ask yourself, or does posting this on AskMe fit your uppity personality a little bit better?
posted by phaedon at 12:36 AM on March 17, 2010
posted by phaedon at 12:36 AM on March 17, 2010
Have you ever worked with someone disabled or known someone disabled and seen how hard some simple things, like just getting out of a car, can be?
He was handicapped and you were drinking a latte in the shade.
posted by surenoproblem at 12:44 AM on March 17, 2010 [17 favorites]
He was handicapped and you were drinking a latte in the shade.
posted by surenoproblem at 12:44 AM on March 17, 2010 [17 favorites]
Response by poster: -Much better. That's the sort of citation i was looking for, if not the answer I'd hoped for.
-Have you ever worked with someone disabled or known someone disabled and seen how hard some simple things, like just getting out of a car, can be?
I have. I have lived with someone with severe mobility problems for whom walking meant pain. I didn't bring it up because I didn't think it was relevant, but the Volvo driver had a whole lot more spring in his step than my injured friend did.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:03 AM on March 17, 2010
-Have you ever worked with someone disabled or known someone disabled and seen how hard some simple things, like just getting out of a car, can be?
I have. I have lived with someone with severe mobility problems for whom walking meant pain. I didn't bring it up because I didn't think it was relevant, but the Volvo driver had a whole lot more spring in his step than my injured friend did.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:03 AM on March 17, 2010
I'm sorry, was a million miles away. Did you have something about the vehicle code you wanted to add?
Yes. You were being an asshole.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 1:04 AM on March 17, 2010 [9 favorites]
Yes. You were being an asshole.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 1:04 AM on March 17, 2010 [9 favorites]
I can't cite any codes, so I'm not much help here, I know. I think that as a pedestrian, which you were since you were not on your bike, you're not legally required to move, I've seen people stand in parking spaces before to save them for a friend or something, and I don't know whether or not that is legal. Whether or not you ride a bike has nothing to do with it, and the handicap placard is also a moot point, I guess. In many places in the US, pedestrians do have the right of way, so I guess from a legal standpoint (which may be complete ignorant bs I know), you didn't have to move. A parking space on the curb is not traffic, so you weren't obstructing anything, am I right? But come one, there are much better ways to be a dick.
posted by bam at 1:05 AM on March 17, 2010
posted by bam at 1:05 AM on March 17, 2010
More fun.
See the car in the header of the DMV page? Volvo.
posted by phaedon at 1:05 AM on March 17, 2010
See the car in the header of the DMV page? Volvo.
posted by phaedon at 1:05 AM on March 17, 2010
I dislike volvo drivers as well, but taunting them just seems cruel.
posted by HFSH at 1:08 AM on March 17, 2010
posted by HFSH at 1:08 AM on March 17, 2010
the Volvo driver had a whole lot more spring in his step than my injured friend did.
The reason we have disabled badges on cars is because legitimate disabilities are not always obvious to the casual observer.
posted by Jimbob at 1:23 AM on March 17, 2010 [17 favorites]
The reason we have disabled badges on cars is because legitimate disabilities are not always obvious to the casual observer.
posted by Jimbob at 1:23 AM on March 17, 2010 [17 favorites]
Consider also that your antagonist, as you see it, was driving a 2000 pound car. And you were sitting in his path.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:24 AM on March 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:24 AM on March 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
In California, people with a Handicap placard can park in any metered spot for as long as they want without paying the meter.
This has created a strong demand for handicapped placards and some people have even started a web site because they feel that there is fraud involved. "Changes are needed, says Maureen Birdsall, 45, a San Francisco-area woman who was so angry about the difficulty she faced trying to park with her severely handicapped grandfather in 2007, that she set up a website for people to report offenders."
Also more parks are needed all over cities in California. That was the inspiration for Parking Day. It started in San Francisco 5 years ago and expanded to 140 cities last year. During Parking Day, citizens feed the meter and turn the parking spot into a temporary park. This seems similar to what you attempted to do, although you waited too late to do it. Next time you want to take a parking spot, why not use your bicycle? Under California vehicle code, it is a vehicle. I don't know the legalities of either Parking day or taking a parking spot with your bicycle, but good luck!
posted by GregorWill at 1:37 AM on March 17, 2010
This has created a strong demand for handicapped placards and some people have even started a web site because they feel that there is fraud involved. "Changes are needed, says Maureen Birdsall, 45, a San Francisco-area woman who was so angry about the difficulty she faced trying to park with her severely handicapped grandfather in 2007, that she set up a website for people to report offenders."
Also more parks are needed all over cities in California. That was the inspiration for Parking Day. It started in San Francisco 5 years ago and expanded to 140 cities last year. During Parking Day, citizens feed the meter and turn the parking spot into a temporary park. This seems similar to what you attempted to do, although you waited too late to do it. Next time you want to take a parking spot, why not use your bicycle? Under California vehicle code, it is a vehicle. I don't know the legalities of either Parking day or taking a parking spot with your bicycle, but good luck!
posted by GregorWill at 1:37 AM on March 17, 2010
I didn't bring it up because I didn't think it was relevant, but the Volvo driver had a whole lot more spring in his step than my injured friend did.
1. Pain and mobility issues can be intermittent.
2. CA grants disability placards for cardiovascular problems and other health issues that may not be obvious to the naked eye. So keep an eye on that hardening heart because it might make you eligible for a placard of your own someday.
3. Given the above, when you see a disability placard, the best course is to assume it's there for a good reason. You are young and able-bodied. Get up not because you feel like it or have to, but because life is difficult enough for disabled people without you piling on more pointless grief.
posted by melissa may at 1:45 AM on March 17, 2010 [7 favorites]
1. Pain and mobility issues can be intermittent.
2. CA grants disability placards for cardiovascular problems and other health issues that may not be obvious to the naked eye. So keep an eye on that hardening heart because it might make you eligible for a placard of your own someday.
3. Given the above, when you see a disability placard, the best course is to assume it's there for a good reason. You are young and able-bodied. Get up not because you feel like it or have to, but because life is difficult enough for disabled people without you piling on more pointless grief.
posted by melissa may at 1:45 AM on March 17, 2010 [7 favorites]
Holy shit. This is an awesome question.
Amazing to get such a close-up view of people like you, PBZM; it's a big, big world of mentally ill individuals out there, and I love to take it all in. The href to the specific place in the mission where you got your coffee is what makes it. This is why I stay away from SF.
Cager. Heh.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:19 AM on March 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Amazing to get such a close-up view of people like you, PBZM; it's a big, big world of mentally ill individuals out there, and I love to take it all in. The href to the specific place in the mission where you got your coffee is what makes it. This is why I stay away from SF.
Cager. Heh.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:19 AM on March 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ugh...the guy that called you a loser is exhibiting precisely the type of unproductive reprimanding that I hate when dealing with these sorts of issues. At least you asked the question, right?
This scenario seems to mix a few issues. 1) Whether sitting on the curb can be considered obstructing traffic, even though it was a parking space; and 2) Whether a disabled parking permit has complete priority over whatever's going on in any given parking space.
As for #1 if your feet were in the street then yes, you'd probably be required to move. As for #2, I don't think you would be required to move since the owner of a parked vehicle in a normal space wouldn't be required to move just because someone with a placard suddenly showed up.
In either case, there's not likely to be a specific law on this since most people in your situation would just get up and move without issue.
Legal ramifications aside, as a person who uses a wheelchair I will say that there is often a type of space or setup that works better depending on the needs of the person with the disability. The best space could be a space that is not a blue space. For example, my van has a ramp on the passenger side, so parking on the left side of a one way street is no good even if there's a blue space open on that side since the ramp would deploy into traffic.
I just thought I'd share that since it might make you more likely to understand the situation next time and not be as frustrated.
posted by thorny at 2:20 AM on March 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
This scenario seems to mix a few issues. 1) Whether sitting on the curb can be considered obstructing traffic, even though it was a parking space; and 2) Whether a disabled parking permit has complete priority over whatever's going on in any given parking space.
As for #1 if your feet were in the street then yes, you'd probably be required to move. As for #2, I don't think you would be required to move since the owner of a parked vehicle in a normal space wouldn't be required to move just because someone with a placard suddenly showed up.
In either case, there's not likely to be a specific law on this since most people in your situation would just get up and move without issue.
Legal ramifications aside, as a person who uses a wheelchair I will say that there is often a type of space or setup that works better depending on the needs of the person with the disability. The best space could be a space that is not a blue space. For example, my van has a ramp on the passenger side, so parking on the left side of a one way street is no good even if there's a blue space open on that side since the ramp would deploy into traffic.
I just thought I'd share that since it might make you more likely to understand the situation next time and not be as frustrated.
posted by thorny at 2:20 AM on March 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a commuting cyclist and a commuting driver, I fail to understand why you seem to believe that carrying on like a complete arsehole - which will only ever cause the drivers you annoy to treat you and other cyclists with less respect - is a good idea.
If you're only polite to drivers when the law says you have to be, you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Get a clue.
posted by flabdablet at 2:20 AM on March 17, 2010 [5 favorites]
If you're only polite to drivers when the law says you have to be, you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Get a clue.
posted by flabdablet at 2:20 AM on March 17, 2010 [5 favorites]
It must be wonderfully liberating to become so entrenched in your guaranteed-by-you-to-be-right viewpoint that you don't have to worry about the thoughts and feelings of the other poor bastards who have the privilege of coming into contact with you and your freedom machine. I'm going to close my eyes a bit and imagine what it must be like to be so blissfully enlightened, ignoring the plight of the disabled because goddammit I need my coffee-and-shade fix right in this place and am also an expert at diagnosing disabilities from a distance, as I feel the breeze blow up my skirt and remind me how glad I am that I don't own a car. And can use my legs.
Good. Now I'm going to write my congressman that there should be an asshole law that allows people like us to enjoy any patch of pavement we damn well please, so long as there isn't a stripe of blue paint on the curb, because fuck them. They can walk and cross the street. We know, just look at the spring in their step.
/drives less than a mile and three minutes to work every day. but idles first for a half hour to keep 'er limber.
//keep fighting the good fight. asshole bicyclists are an underrepresented demographic.
posted by disillusioned at 2:43 AM on March 17, 2010 [10 favorites]
Good. Now I'm going to write my congressman that there should be an asshole law that allows people like us to enjoy any patch of pavement we damn well please, so long as there isn't a stripe of blue paint on the curb, because fuck them. They can walk and cross the street. We know, just look at the spring in their step.
/drives less than a mile and three minutes to work every day. but idles first for a half hour to keep 'er limber.
//keep fighting the good fight. asshole bicyclists are an underrepresented demographic.
posted by disillusioned at 2:43 AM on March 17, 2010 [10 favorites]
What the fuck is wrong with you?
posted by loquacious at 3:22 AM on March 17, 2010 [22 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 3:22 AM on March 17, 2010 [22 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by kelseyq at 12:20 AM on March 17, 2010 [31 favorites]