Gimme a H! Gimme an R! Gimme a H! What's that spell? Lawsuit!
March 7, 2010 11:04 AM
How far can I go "impersonating" the ownership of a noble title in th UK?
I've always wanted to have a title, like a noble person does! You know, Lady Sova, Countess Sova of Barnsley, Queen Sova of Rutland, and so on. But what's the legal position of this in the UK? Lots of people have noble titles here, and I guess they're legally protected in some way, or else anybody could just start calling themselves whatever. But then people with obviously fake titles also exist: Lady Sovereign, Screamin Lord Sutch, 3rd Earl of Harrow. Is there a line between satire and impersonation where you start encounter legal nasties?
Note: I don't want to impersonate a particular person, as I know that's bad, and I don't wish to pretend I'm a member of a certain family or holder or an already existing title. But I would like to be able to present myself as authentically entitled. Even a lowly
I've always wanted to have a title, like a noble person does! You know, Lady Sova, Countess Sova of Barnsley, Queen Sova of Rutland, and so on. But what's the legal position of this in the UK? Lots of people have noble titles here, and I guess they're legally protected in some way, or else anybody could just start calling themselves whatever. But then people with obviously fake titles also exist: Lady Sovereign, Screamin Lord Sutch, 3rd Earl of Harrow. Is there a line between satire and impersonation where you start encounter legal nasties?
Note: I don't want to impersonate a particular person, as I know that's bad, and I don't wish to pretend I'm a member of a certain family or holder or an already existing title. But I would like to be able to present myself as authentically entitled. Even a lowly
Have a look here.
Bad news, in short: you can't. But you can buy the lordship of the Manor, which confers no change in title. Caveat Emptor. It's a huckster's market.
posted by MuffinMan at 11:24 AM on March 7, 2010
Bad news, in short: you can't. But you can buy the lordship of the Manor, which confers no change in title. Caveat Emptor. It's a huckster's market.
posted by MuffinMan at 11:24 AM on March 7, 2010
Dibs on Lordship of Pole.
I think she's asking, though, whether she can get in trouble for simply calling herself "Baroness Sova."
posted by cmoj at 11:44 AM on March 7, 2010
I think she's asking, though, whether she can get in trouble for simply calling herself "Baroness Sova."
posted by cmoj at 11:44 AM on March 7, 2010
The only British titles you can legally buy and sell are Scottish Baronies. They are really only titled landholdings, and thus can't really be considered 'noble' in the blue-blooded sense of the term.
In the UK you cannot legally change your name to something that would infer you had a title. Screaming Lord Sutch still had the legal name of David Edward Sutch. Lord Sutch was merely an 'artist name'.
This site explains this idea a bit more fully.
So get researching on that family tree, because thats the only way its going to happen!
posted by TheOtherGuy at 11:51 AM on March 7, 2010
In the UK you cannot legally change your name to something that would infer you had a title. Screaming Lord Sutch still had the legal name of David Edward Sutch. Lord Sutch was merely an 'artist name'.
This site explains this idea a bit more fully.
So get researching on that family tree, because thats the only way its going to happen!
posted by TheOtherGuy at 11:51 AM on March 7, 2010
FYI to any in the U.S. who'd like to try the same:
"No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States...
US Constitution, Article I, Section 9
posted by Bet Glenn at 12:01 PM on March 7, 2010
"No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States...
US Constitution, Article I, Section 9
posted by Bet Glenn at 12:01 PM on March 7, 2010
How about Duchess Sova of the Chiropteran Feculance Berserkery?
posted by torquemaniac at 12:04 PM on March 7, 2010
posted by torquemaniac at 12:04 PM on March 7, 2010
You can marry a title. Jamie Lee Curtis is legally known in the UK as "Baroness Haden-Guest of Saling in the County of Essex" because she's married to Christopher Guest, and he got that title in 1996 when his father died.
(Curiously, Christopher Guest was born in NYC, so he's a US citizen.)
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 12:06 PM on March 7, 2010
(Curiously, Christopher Guest was born in NYC, so he's a US citizen.)
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 12:06 PM on March 7, 2010
For emphasis, Sova is asking whether it's legally okay to pretend to have a title, not how to actually acquire one.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:07 PM on March 7, 2010
posted by Rhaomi at 12:07 PM on March 7, 2010
For emphasis, Sova is asking whether it's legally okay to pretend to have a title, not how to actually acquire one.
Yes, but I should have been clearer. I'm neither looking to change my name, or to obtain a genuine title. Simply present myself as though I was authentically titled. If my name is "Jane Smith", how far can I go in presenting myself as Lady Jane Smith.
posted by Sova at 12:24 PM on March 7, 2010
Yes, but I should have been clearer. I'm neither looking to change my name, or to obtain a genuine title. Simply present myself as though I was authentically titled. If my name is "Jane Smith", how far can I go in presenting myself as Lady Jane Smith.
posted by Sova at 12:24 PM on March 7, 2010
There is a criminal offence under section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 of fraud by false representation.
The offence is committed if you make a false representation dishonestly, knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading, with intent to make a gain for yourself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.
This link will take you to the Crown Prosecution Service guidance that prosecutors use when considering whether to pursue charges then prosecuting fraud offences. It glosses each element of that definition. Depending on exactly what you want to do once you've renamed yourself "Lady Jane Smith", or whatever, it might fall within this offence.
posted by greycap at 12:59 PM on March 7, 2010
The offence is committed if you make a false representation dishonestly, knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading, with intent to make a gain for yourself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.
This link will take you to the Crown Prosecution Service guidance that prosecutors use when considering whether to pursue charges then prosecuting fraud offences. It glosses each element of that definition. Depending on exactly what you want to do once you've renamed yourself "Lady Jane Smith", or whatever, it might fall within this offence.
posted by greycap at 12:59 PM on March 7, 2010
In principle you can call yourself whatever you like in the UK, unless you're using the assumed name to commit fraud or other crimes.
And in practice, if you pretended to be Lady Sova, I think most people would probably take you at your word, again unless you were trying to get something out of them on the strength of it. A Russian or German accent would probably help to ward off curiosity. Note that if you call yourself Lady Ann Sova, or whatever, rather than just Lady Sova, you're implicitly claiming to be the daughter of a Lord, which is a stronger claim and though still not illegal in itself, might if detected be seen as bad form rather than mere eccentricity.
Queen of Rutland would be pushing your luck a little too far, I think, as people would be significantly more likely to realise that Rutland was never in fact a monarchy.
posted by Phanx at 1:34 PM on March 7, 2010
And in practice, if you pretended to be Lady Sova, I think most people would probably take you at your word, again unless you were trying to get something out of them on the strength of it. A Russian or German accent would probably help to ward off curiosity. Note that if you call yourself Lady Ann Sova, or whatever, rather than just Lady Sova, you're implicitly claiming to be the daughter of a Lord, which is a stronger claim and though still not illegal in itself, might if detected be seen as bad form rather than mere eccentricity.
Queen of Rutland would be pushing your luck a little too far, I think, as people would be significantly more likely to realise that Rutland was never in fact a monarchy.
posted by Phanx at 1:34 PM on March 7, 2010
Many European countries give out minor titles for meritorious civil service - my grandfather was knighted in return for teaching in a Belgian university for several decades. That's probably the most straightforward legitimate way to go about it. You'd have to be a citizen of said country, obviously.
posted by phrontist at 2:29 PM on March 7, 2010
posted by phrontist at 2:29 PM on March 7, 2010
If you just want to give yourself a title as a fun name, a la Screaming Lord Sutch, but don't want to actually defraud people, you could use one of the New Towns.
Lady Bracknell
The Baroness of Telford
Queen of Milton Keynes*
It's an amusing joke to anybody who thinks about it for a couple of moments, it's a fancy name to anybody who doesn't and you're guaranteed not to be stepping on the toes of any existing aristos.
* On second thought, this one might be overkill.
posted by the latin mouse at 2:54 PM on March 7, 2010
Lady Bracknell
The Baroness of Telford
Queen of Milton Keynes*
It's an amusing joke to anybody who thinks about it for a couple of moments, it's a fancy name to anybody who doesn't and you're guaranteed not to be stepping on the toes of any existing aristos.
* On second thought, this one might be overkill.
posted by the latin mouse at 2:54 PM on March 7, 2010
the latin mouse: " It's an amusing joke to anybody who thinks about it for a couple of moments, it's a fancy name to anybody who doesn't and you're guaranteed not to be stepping on the toes of any existing aristos."
Could you explain that? I've read of the various New Towns Acts, so I realize you can't actually have a Baron Telford, but it's not apparent why that would be funny.
posted by d. z. wang at 5:12 PM on March 7, 2010
Could you explain that? I've read of the various New Towns Acts, so I realize you can't actually have a Baron Telford, but it's not apparent why that would be funny.
posted by d. z. wang at 5:12 PM on March 7, 2010
£200,000 donated to a major politcal party should give you a wide choice of options.
posted by cromagnon at 5:42 PM on March 7, 2010
posted by cromagnon at 5:42 PM on March 7, 2010
Could you explain that? I've read of the various New Towns Acts, so I realize you can't actually have a Baron Telford, but it's not apparent why that would be funny.
This is not an area in which one can draw a tight parallel, but I believe the American equivalent would be something like "The Earl of Scottsdale" or the "Vicompte de Las Vegas." e.g., not only are the localities new, they are also widely considered somewhat tacky. An aristocratic title suggests a centuries-old storied history --- knights, squires, castles, moors, the lot --- and therefore to attach such a title to a locality which is itself redolent of mid-twentieth century cookie cutter urban planning is an amusing incongruity. Sort of a Young Master Jayden Caleb Pulaski IV feel.
posted by Diablevert at 7:47 PM on March 7, 2010
This is not an area in which one can draw a tight parallel, but I believe the American equivalent would be something like "The Earl of Scottsdale" or the "Vicompte de Las Vegas." e.g., not only are the localities new, they are also widely considered somewhat tacky. An aristocratic title suggests a centuries-old storied history --- knights, squires, castles, moors, the lot --- and therefore to attach such a title to a locality which is itself redolent of mid-twentieth century cookie cutter urban planning is an amusing incongruity. Sort of a Young Master Jayden Caleb Pulaski IV feel.
posted by Diablevert at 7:47 PM on March 7, 2010
you could use one of the New Towns.
Lady Bracknell
Surely you realize that Lady Bracknell is taken?
posted by tangerine at 11:46 PM on March 7, 2010
Lady Bracknell
Surely you realize that Lady Bracknell is taken?
posted by tangerine at 11:46 PM on March 7, 2010
You could claim descent from a European title that isn't recognised by its country of origin. I understand some people swan around calling themselves Prince This and Duke That, despite their homelands having been republics for a century of more. As long as you don't try to get a financial advantage from this you should be legally OK, at least as long as you're outside the supposed country of origin. Here's a list of French Marquisates - pick an extinct one and come up with a reason why you are entitled to use the title.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:07 AM on March 9, 2010
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:07 AM on March 9, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by knz at 11:21 AM on March 7, 2010