Talking straight to vendors
March 2, 2010 8:12 AM Subscribe
Help me explain to my graphics vendor that I am unhappy with the way he tends to nickel-and-dime me with "consulting" invoices. Most recent (and egregious) example was during lunch.
My graphics vendor has done first-class work (website, collaterals, etc.) for nearly nine years. Expensive, but error-free and (best of all) turnkey.
Last week I visited his city (where I lived until five years ago) and arranged a lunch. We typically meet face-to-face only once or twice a year. Naturally, the conversation included discussion of possible website changes. He invoiced me for .5 hours of consulting. I am feeling gouged. Over the last five years, I have averaged $22,000 in work for him. (FWIW - I have NEVER received so much as a Christmas card, never mind a thank-you gift of any kind.)
I know that, as a free-lancer, time is all he has to sell. I just hate the feeling that 'the meter is always running'.
I know I need to talk to him. How might I express my displeasure? If you are a free-lancer, how would you want this message delivered to you? Is there something I am not appreciating or understanding about his business that might make me more sympathetic? (Frankly, I wouldn't really care - or even notice, probably - if he tacked that .5 hours onto another invoice. I don't want to tell him that, however.)
My graphics vendor has done first-class work (website, collaterals, etc.) for nearly nine years. Expensive, but error-free and (best of all) turnkey.
Last week I visited his city (where I lived until five years ago) and arranged a lunch. We typically meet face-to-face only once or twice a year. Naturally, the conversation included discussion of possible website changes. He invoiced me for .5 hours of consulting. I am feeling gouged. Over the last five years, I have averaged $22,000 in work for him. (FWIW - I have NEVER received so much as a Christmas card, never mind a thank-you gift of any kind.)
I know that, as a free-lancer, time is all he has to sell. I just hate the feeling that 'the meter is always running'.
I know I need to talk to him. How might I express my displeasure? If you are a free-lancer, how would you want this message delivered to you? Is there something I am not appreciating or understanding about his business that might make me more sympathetic? (Frankly, I wouldn't really care - or even notice, probably - if he tacked that .5 hours onto another invoice. I don't want to tell him that, however.)
Did you buy his lunch?
posted by restless_nomad at 8:20 AM on March 2, 2010
posted by restless_nomad at 8:20 AM on March 2, 2010
You got a lunch time's worth of business discussion billed as three minutes. How do you see yourself being gouged. You don't say where this occurred. Parking, transportation, and lunch itself are all costs that can be written off taxes if he can show that they were related to business. Having an invoice for the business that he did that day is the best way to demonstrate that link to an auditor.
posted by Babblesort at 8:23 AM on March 2, 2010
posted by Babblesort at 8:23 AM on March 2, 2010
Whoops, thirty minutes I meant.
posted by Babblesort at 8:25 AM on March 2, 2010
posted by Babblesort at 8:25 AM on March 2, 2010
He sounds like a business savvy freelancer to me. Time is money. And this is business. Just because he is a freelancer doesn't mean he should be handing out coupons, freebies, thank-you gifts, etc. Just try to minimize the time you need to convey your requirements. If he is doing a good job, leave it at that.
posted by jasondigitized at 8:33 AM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by jasondigitized at 8:33 AM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: It sounds like he charges fees for services and then additional consulting time for miscellaneous discussions. I would just tell him that sometimes it's a little unclear to you when you're "on the clock" for consulting vs when you're not, and that while you're absolutely happy to pay for consulting when you need it, you don't always need the extra attention. Just ask if he can give you a heads-up once consulting time starts so you can plan for it.
posted by zachlipton at 8:34 AM on March 2, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 8:34 AM on March 2, 2010 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Lunch purpose included website changes, upcoming PPT presentation, his new fiancee, their wedding plans, his upcoming ski trip, all manner of conversation.
He paid for lunch ... all $20 of it.
.5 hours converts to 30 minutes, not 3. And, frankly, I don't care what he has to do re: his taxes. I am self-employed, myself, so I understand how that works.
The 30 minutes of conversation was about work he will do in the next 60 days for which he will undoubtedly bill me 4 to 5 hours. He knows that.
We have this kind of face-to-face conversation once, or twice a year, at best. What's wrong with my expectation that he not bill me for .5 hours, in view of the approximately $22,000 he's earned every year?
posted by John Borrowman at 8:37 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
He paid for lunch ... all $20 of it.
.5 hours converts to 30 minutes, not 3. And, frankly, I don't care what he has to do re: his taxes. I am self-employed, myself, so I understand how that works.
The 30 minutes of conversation was about work he will do in the next 60 days for which he will undoubtedly bill me 4 to 5 hours. He knows that.
We have this kind of face-to-face conversation once, or twice a year, at best. What's wrong with my expectation that he not bill me for .5 hours, in view of the approximately $22,000 he's earned every year?
posted by John Borrowman at 8:37 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
You, apparently, have never dealt with attorneys. If you were billed for only .5 hour for a business lunch away from the office, send your consultant a thank you note for it. As you acknowledge, "...time is all he has to sell...." I have been taken to lunch by an attorney who has billed my company as much as $250,000 a year, billed for the lunch time and for the lunch itself. This was business, not boys night out.
posted by Old Geezer at 8:40 AM on March 2, 2010
posted by Old Geezer at 8:40 AM on March 2, 2010
You seem to be under the impression that you're doing him a favor for hiring him, and therefore he owes you something. That's... not the way it works.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:40 AM on March 2, 2010 [25 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 8:40 AM on March 2, 2010 [25 favorites]
I have NEVER received so much as a Christmas card, never mind a thank-you gift of any kind.
The fact that you would mention this indicates what I think are unreasonable expectations. Sure, it'd be nice to get a gift, but that's not the relationship you have—you have a business relationship where he does excellent, error-free work and you pay for it. Given that he spent time and money to meet you for lunch and buy you lunch, which wasn't exactly a social call, and I'm guessing the lunch lasted for longer than 30 min, charging you for 0.5 hours is pretty minimal. Yeah, you chatted about other stuff, but people sometimes do that during non-lunch work meetings for which they expect to be paid.
posted by grouse at 8:41 AM on March 2, 2010 [7 favorites]
The fact that you would mention this indicates what I think are unreasonable expectations. Sure, it'd be nice to get a gift, but that's not the relationship you have—you have a business relationship where he does excellent, error-free work and you pay for it. Given that he spent time and money to meet you for lunch and buy you lunch, which wasn't exactly a social call, and I'm guessing the lunch lasted for longer than 30 min, charging you for 0.5 hours is pretty minimal. Yeah, you chatted about other stuff, but people sometimes do that during non-lunch work meetings for which they expect to be paid.
posted by grouse at 8:41 AM on March 2, 2010 [7 favorites]
This person is not your friend (or if he is your friend, it's totally separate from your business relationship, and you need to treat it as such). This person is a business associate. He works for you only during the time you pay him for. That means that if you want to see him or speak with him about work, you should expect to pay for his time. He does not owe you Christmas cards or gifts (?!?!?!). All he owes you is the work you pay him for. If you don't want to be billed for 30 minutes of his time, don't ask him to devote 30 minutes of his time to your project over lunch.
Frankly, if you came to me and told me that you were upset that I billed you 30 minutes for time we spent discussing business over lunch, I'd probably fire you. If I found out that you were sore that I hadn't been buying you presents, I'd definitely fire you, and I'd have a good laugh with my friends about you. Express your "displeasure" if you want, but realize that you're expecting him to treat you in a way that is totally out of the norm for the relationship you have with him.
On preview: What's wrong with my expectation that he not bill me for .5 hours, in view of the approximately $22,000 he's earned every year?
What's wrong with his expectation that he be paid for all of the time he works for you? If he hadn't had lunch with you, he could have worked on a paying project for another client. If you want his time, you have to pay him to give up that other opportunity. And if you don't want his time, don't ask for it.
posted by decathecting at 8:48 AM on March 2, 2010 [9 favorites]
Frankly, if you came to me and told me that you were upset that I billed you 30 minutes for time we spent discussing business over lunch, I'd probably fire you. If I found out that you were sore that I hadn't been buying you presents, I'd definitely fire you, and I'd have a good laugh with my friends about you. Express your "displeasure" if you want, but realize that you're expecting him to treat you in a way that is totally out of the norm for the relationship you have with him.
On preview: What's wrong with my expectation that he not bill me for .5 hours, in view of the approximately $22,000 he's earned every year?
What's wrong with his expectation that he be paid for all of the time he works for you? If he hadn't had lunch with you, he could have worked on a paying project for another client. If you want his time, you have to pay him to give up that other opportunity. And if you don't want his time, don't ask for it.
posted by decathecting at 8:48 AM on March 2, 2010 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: doing him a favor for hiring him
No. I have merely been a loyal customer for nearly nine years. I have averaged $20K or more every year. I pay invoices within 48 hours. I have referred other business.
Forget about the Christmas card or a gift. A simple "thank you for your business" would be nice. Or, maybe, a lunchtime discussion without a subsequent invoice.
I find myself being argumentative. And that was not my purpose. I do appreciate the additional perspective you all have offered. Thank you.
posted by John Borrowman at 8:57 AM on March 2, 2010
No. I have merely been a loyal customer for nearly nine years. I have averaged $20K or more every year. I pay invoices within 48 hours. I have referred other business.
Forget about the Christmas card or a gift. A simple "thank you for your business" would be nice. Or, maybe, a lunchtime discussion without a subsequent invoice.
I find myself being argumentative. And that was not my purpose. I do appreciate the additional perspective you all have offered. Thank you.
posted by John Borrowman at 8:57 AM on March 2, 2010
It sounds like the worst part is that you were surprised by the charge. He probably _must_ charge you for consulting time because he charges his other (maybe smaller) clients the same way, and he'd feel pretty weird about charging smaller (poorer) clients for things for which he doesn't bill you.
You could maybe have a contractual arrangement where he didn't have to bill you hourly at all; you just send him $2500/month or so, he does up to X hours of work each month, or however else you can set it up fairly. Things could probably be a little more relaxed between you then.
Heck, you could make him a part-time employee if he's into that.
posted by amtho at 9:00 AM on March 2, 2010
You could maybe have a contractual arrangement where he didn't have to bill you hourly at all; you just send him $2500/month or so, he does up to X hours of work each month, or however else you can set it up fairly. Things could probably be a little more relaxed between you then.
Heck, you could make him a part-time employee if he's into that.
posted by amtho at 9:00 AM on March 2, 2010
If I'm reading your follow-up correctly, he took you to lunch? And then billed you for his time? That sounds rather odd to me.
Maybe it's different in a sales office environment but around here business lunches are considered a marketing tool, the "face time" being a valuable means of cementing the business relationship. I'd think this might function the same way for a consultant... as a freelancer he's his own salesguy, so to speak, so I think it would be in his own best interest to absorb the time-cost of the occasional lunch with a valued client. He wouldn't charge you for mailing you a flyer describing his services or for a telemarketing call, after all.
He sounds a little clueless to me.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 9:01 AM on March 2, 2010 [5 favorites]
Maybe it's different in a sales office environment but around here business lunches are considered a marketing tool, the "face time" being a valuable means of cementing the business relationship. I'd think this might function the same way for a consultant... as a freelancer he's his own salesguy, so to speak, so I think it would be in his own best interest to absorb the time-cost of the occasional lunch with a valued client. He wouldn't charge you for mailing you a flyer describing his services or for a telemarketing call, after all.
He sounds a little clueless to me.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 9:01 AM on March 2, 2010 [5 favorites]
Also: it's entirely possible that you have better social aptitude than he does. Maybe once you're past the initial heat of upsetness, you could figure out a way to talk to him about this. Maybe that's not a good idea -- you know better than me.
Maybe I could be a little warmer with my own clients; it's just hard, though, because I always worry I'll seem fake or Machiavellian. I genuinely like many of them, but I don't want them (or me) to feel guilty if we have to part ways, or to stick with me _only_ because they like me or don't want to hurt my feelings.
posted by amtho at 9:04 AM on March 2, 2010
Maybe I could be a little warmer with my own clients; it's just hard, though, because I always worry I'll seem fake or Machiavellian. I genuinely like many of them, but I don't want them (or me) to feel guilty if we have to part ways, or to stick with me _only_ because they like me or don't want to hurt my feelings.
posted by amtho at 9:04 AM on March 2, 2010
There is no way to bring this up to him without seeming cheap.
posted by smackfu at 9:07 AM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by smackfu at 9:07 AM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
Naturally, the conversation included discussion of possible website changes.
*ahem*
posted by Aquaman at 9:16 AM on March 2, 2010
*ahem*
posted by Aquaman at 9:16 AM on March 2, 2010
This is absolutely normal, standard operating procedure. If you don't want to be "nickled and dimed" or receive consulting invoices, you need to discuss paying a flat-rate per project or negotiating a retainer.
posted by lunalaguna at 9:26 AM on March 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by lunalaguna at 9:26 AM on March 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
No. I have merely been a loyal customer for nearly nine years. I have averaged $20K or more every year. I pay invoices within 48 hours. I have referred other business.
Forget about the Christmas card or a gift. A simple "thank you for your business" would be nice. Or, maybe, a lunchtime discussion without a subsequent invoice.
If you can deal with a vendor for nine years, and this charge is your biggest issue with him, count your blessings. I would kill a puppy for a vendor like that. Frankly, I would prefer a professional, profitable relationship with someone like that over some stressful quid pro quo quasi-friendship where the "favors" have to be factored into billable hours and such. His professionalism is a gift; you know exactly what you are getting. Be glad.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:30 AM on March 2, 2010 [6 favorites]
Forget about the Christmas card or a gift. A simple "thank you for your business" would be nice. Or, maybe, a lunchtime discussion without a subsequent invoice.
If you can deal with a vendor for nine years, and this charge is your biggest issue with him, count your blessings. I would kill a puppy for a vendor like that. Frankly, I would prefer a professional, profitable relationship with someone like that over some stressful quid pro quo quasi-friendship where the "favors" have to be factored into billable hours and such. His professionalism is a gift; you know exactly what you are getting. Be glad.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:30 AM on March 2, 2010 [6 favorites]
I don't mean to be rude, but if you don't want to be billed for consulting services then don't pump your vendors for business-related information.
I did freelance web and graphic design for a few years and I did the same thing. I had many lunches with clients, most of which were strictly social. However, I wasn't dumb; I knew that the conversation would "inevitably lead to discussion of changes to the website." That time is billed; I can't take my Edward Jones guy to lunch and expect free investment advice. I can't take a therapist to lunch and expect to get a free session.
posted by Willie0248 at 9:36 AM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
I did freelance web and graphic design for a few years and I did the same thing. I had many lunches with clients, most of which were strictly social. However, I wasn't dumb; I knew that the conversation would "inevitably lead to discussion of changes to the website." That time is billed; I can't take my Edward Jones guy to lunch and expect free investment advice. I can't take a therapist to lunch and expect to get a free session.
posted by Willie0248 at 9:36 AM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
Just mention to this fellow that you're not always sure when you're on the clock and when you are not, and request that he let you know beforehand when you are going to be billed.
If you continue to be billed for discussions you feel you shouldn't be billed for, drop this vendor.
You've worked with the guy for nine years and you flow $22k a year to this person. It sounds as though you would like a more collegial relationship.
You're not in the wrong at all, and you're being perfectly reasonable - the vendor is in the wrong here, not you.
By nickle-and-diming you, this fellow is maintaining a simple transactional relationship, and that's not good customer service.
Part of managing a relationship means sometimes going above and beyond, which means not billing for a 30 minute conversation.
If this guy is unwilling to manage the relationship, drop him. You've got $22k, and that can buy very good service.
You have to ask yourself, does he really care about you? Does he really care about the past 9 year and $200k you have spent on him?
posted by KokuRyu at 9:47 AM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
If you continue to be billed for discussions you feel you shouldn't be billed for, drop this vendor.
You've worked with the guy for nine years and you flow $22k a year to this person. It sounds as though you would like a more collegial relationship.
You're not in the wrong at all, and you're being perfectly reasonable - the vendor is in the wrong here, not you.
By nickle-and-diming you, this fellow is maintaining a simple transactional relationship, and that's not good customer service.
Part of managing a relationship means sometimes going above and beyond, which means not billing for a 30 minute conversation.
If this guy is unwilling to manage the relationship, drop him. You've got $22k, and that can buy very good service.
You have to ask yourself, does he really care about you? Does he really care about the past 9 year and $200k you have spent on him?
posted by KokuRyu at 9:47 AM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
We have this kind of face-to-face conversation once, or twice a year, at best. What's wrong with my expectation that he not bill me for .5 hours, in view of the approximately $22,000 he's earned every year?
You are in the wrong here. He's billing you for work he thinks he's completed, which would be a half hour of consulting time. If you think he inappropriately billed you for the lunch meeting, let him know. If you don't think the work he's done over the time he's worked for you is good enough, ask him to improve or can him. Look around for a vendor that does the Xmas card thing or fruit baskets.
But to suggest he owes you free, friendly lunches smacks of a fundamental misunderstanding of your work relationship.
Hire an employee if you need to have free, friendly lunches with a colleague.
posted by RajahKing at 10:03 AM on March 2, 2010
I think people are being rather harsh. Business is an inherently social undertaking, and part of being social is dealing with one another in a non-transactional manner. Keeping a client warm, swapping some personal anecdotes and talking informally about upcoming business is that sort of thing.
If you must break everything in business down to a transaction, then you consider this sort of thing overhead, and you roll it in to your hourly rate. It's part of the reason freelancers bill so much more than you'd pay staff, because they have to spend a significant amount of their time drumming up new business.
For everyone who thinks this guy is somehow trying to gouging the designer out of an hour or two of time twice a year while paying out $20K for billable work a year for the past five years. Look at it this way, if John B dropped this guy how much time would the designer likely spend hustling for new work?
Tell the guy you are happy doing business with him, but his latest invoice really brought you up short. You know yourself that time is money, but billing out for a rare, relatively short, face-to face meeting that has been bookended by 5 years of business, and the promise of more just doesn't feel right, and you'd like to not be put in that situation again.
posted by Good Brain at 10:20 AM on March 2, 2010 [4 favorites]
If you must break everything in business down to a transaction, then you consider this sort of thing overhead, and you roll it in to your hourly rate. It's part of the reason freelancers bill so much more than you'd pay staff, because they have to spend a significant amount of their time drumming up new business.
For everyone who thinks this guy is somehow trying to gouging the designer out of an hour or two of time twice a year while paying out $20K for billable work a year for the past five years. Look at it this way, if John B dropped this guy how much time would the designer likely spend hustling for new work?
Tell the guy you are happy doing business with him, but his latest invoice really brought you up short. You know yourself that time is money, but billing out for a rare, relatively short, face-to face meeting that has been bookended by 5 years of business, and the promise of more just doesn't feel right, and you'd like to not be put in that situation again.
posted by Good Brain at 10:20 AM on March 2, 2010 [4 favorites]
I think Good Brain is spot on.
If I'm reading your follow-up correctly, he took you to lunch? And then billed you for his time? That sounds rather odd to me.
This seemed odd to me too. If his intent was to bill you in the first place, why bother paying for lunch? It seems disingenuous to send a bill after the fact.
posted by SoulOnIce at 10:26 AM on March 2, 2010
If I'm reading your follow-up correctly, he took you to lunch? And then billed you for his time? That sounds rather odd to me.
This seemed odd to me too. If his intent was to bill you in the first place, why bother paying for lunch? It seems disingenuous to send a bill after the fact.
posted by SoulOnIce at 10:26 AM on March 2, 2010
I think that part of the problem here is that there's two kinds of "consultations" in his business: paid consulting about your graphics needs and unpaid discussions about work he may be able to do for you. For example, if you say "I want a website. Do you do that?" he'll tell you about websites, what advantages they give you, how he can make you one, why he is good at it, etc... This is called sales or client development and most people expect not to pay for it. You pay him for his time to actually make you the website later, but not for the time spent selling his services to you.
In contrast, if you say "I want a website. What would be a great website for my business?" he'll brainstorm possible features and content for you. This is deemed consulting and you're supposed to pay for it.
But the distinction between the two is subtle and often non-existent. Consulting work often lends itself to recommending additional services, and sales/client development often leads to giving away "free" services in order to attract clients for large projects. Think of an ad agency pitching a campaign or an architect proposing a project. The professional is saying "I understand your needs and here is how I would be able to serve them if you hire me." Paid consulting is often about more or less the same thing, except with more emphasis on understanding needs and less on selling the professional's abilities.
The line is more clear when you're an potential new client (particularly if you haven't signed a contract or discussed payment or fees in any way), but in the context of an established business relationship (particularly when a social engagement is involved), it's easy enough for the client to feel he's discussing future work (unpaid sales/client development) and the professional to feel he's providing consulting services for which he deserves to be paid. That's what happened here. No one is trying to scam the other and no one is being disrespectful, but there was a misunderstanding as to the nature of the services being provided.
Good professionals can avoid this by being upfront that they are always happy to discuss potential projects, but that when these discussions become more detailed, concrete, or simply lengthy, it becomes consulting, which he needs to be paid for. He can then let clients know when consulting is beginning, to avoid misunderstandings. Since the professional in this question didn't do so, the OP can ask the professional to let him know when the discussion turns into consulting so that he can decide whether it is worthwhile to pay for such services or not.
posted by zachlipton at 11:03 AM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
In contrast, if you say "I want a website. What would be a great website for my business?" he'll brainstorm possible features and content for you. This is deemed consulting and you're supposed to pay for it.
But the distinction between the two is subtle and often non-existent. Consulting work often lends itself to recommending additional services, and sales/client development often leads to giving away "free" services in order to attract clients for large projects. Think of an ad agency pitching a campaign or an architect proposing a project. The professional is saying "I understand your needs and here is how I would be able to serve them if you hire me." Paid consulting is often about more or less the same thing, except with more emphasis on understanding needs and less on selling the professional's abilities.
The line is more clear when you're an potential new client (particularly if you haven't signed a contract or discussed payment or fees in any way), but in the context of an established business relationship (particularly when a social engagement is involved), it's easy enough for the client to feel he's discussing future work (unpaid sales/client development) and the professional to feel he's providing consulting services for which he deserves to be paid. That's what happened here. No one is trying to scam the other and no one is being disrespectful, but there was a misunderstanding as to the nature of the services being provided.
Good professionals can avoid this by being upfront that they are always happy to discuss potential projects, but that when these discussions become more detailed, concrete, or simply lengthy, it becomes consulting, which he needs to be paid for. He can then let clients know when consulting is beginning, to avoid misunderstandings. Since the professional in this question didn't do so, the OP can ask the professional to let him know when the discussion turns into consulting so that he can decide whether it is worthwhile to pay for such services or not.
posted by zachlipton at 11:03 AM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
There is no way to bring this up to him without seeming cheap.
So what?
posted by KokuRyu at 11:06 AM on March 2, 2010
So what?
posted by KokuRyu at 11:06 AM on March 2, 2010
I guess my point is, when you're in business, new and continuing business doesn't exactly fall into your lap - you have to work at it. There needs to be a certain amount of give and take (no nickel and diming), and the vendor also has to be able to communicate boundaries clearly (sorry, website consultation means we're on the meter).
posted by KokuRyu at 11:12 AM on March 2, 2010
posted by KokuRyu at 11:12 AM on March 2, 2010
lunalaguna: “This is absolutely normal, standard operating procedure. If you don't want to be "nickled and dimed" or receive consulting invoices, you need to discuss paying a flat-rate per project or negotiating a retainer.”
This, a billion times over, with sugar and honey on top. Please, please, please listen to the freelancers in the room telling you that this is a standard thing. I know that, as a client of a vendor, little quirks of the common model can seem frustrating; you might feel as though they're unnecessary hassles that don't make any sense. But you need to understand that there's a reason for it. I know there's been a bit of a backlash here because a lot of us who have freelanced know all too well the perils of the relationship, and it's of course natural that there are going to be more freelancers than clients in the world; however, it's a point that should be made: this is exactly how things should work between a client and a vendor. There is no other option. I'm very sorry, but that's how it is.
When you go to a lunch with a freelancer, it is absolutely different from a sales meeting or any other business meeting. You're asking questions about business that can be done, and she or he is responding. When you're at a lunch talking with someone who might do business with you in the future, or who might be a potential client of yours, or what have you, you're talking about possibilities and work that might be done if both parties so choose. But when you're at lunch with a freelancer, someone hired to consult with you about design work, you are consulting; and therefore they are doing their job. That's the simple reality: they need to get paid for their work.
I know you're just a guy wondering where all these little charges are coming from, and it may seem overwhelming. One thing that may help is seeing it from the vendor's perspective. It's obvious that you're not a "nightmare client," but every freelancer that's been out there for even a small amount of time has met them, so I'm sure your client has had them, too. These nightmare clients call constantly wanting little changes and adjustments to a project on a 'pro bono' basis; they'll call and ask for what they think is a tiny shift in design, and then expect or even ask that that work be done for free. And far more common is the type of client that will want to have long conversations spitballing possible plans for the future that are just off-the-cuff, as though they were in an in-house business meeting, and then not pay for these conversations. A very bold line has be drawn between "paid employee" and "freelance vendor," and this is how to draw it: by billing carefully.
Like I said, I can tell you're not one of those clients who does that. I can tell you're not trying to get a bunch of work for free, not trying to sneak in help on this or that other project without having her or him bill for it. And I don't want even to imply that you'd be like that. But please see it from the designer's perspective; this is standard operating procedure because that situation is really the one to avoid in this game.
KokuRyu: “If this guy is unwilling to manage the relationship, drop him. You've got $22k, and that can buy very good service.”
Well – I don't know if I'd be that hasty.
It's really a question of what you value. You can't make him do business differently, and if my experience means anything I think it would be pointless to try. I think you just have to make a judgment about what's worth more to you; keeping the great design work you have right now coming, or having a friendlier relationship with your vendor? If having a friendly relationship with your vendor means more, then by all means drop this guy and find somebody you'd prefer working with on a personal level. But if the good design is what you care about – and given the vicissitudes of business, I think that's the important thing here – then I imagine the only thing you can do is suck it up, tell yourself that this is just the way of doing business with most vendors, and move forward (keeping a close eye on making sure you're not overbilled.)
Short version: I don't think there's anything you can do about this, unfortunately. Accept it or find somebody else.
posted by koeselitz at 11:30 AM on March 2, 2010 [4 favorites]
This, a billion times over, with sugar and honey on top. Please, please, please listen to the freelancers in the room telling you that this is a standard thing. I know that, as a client of a vendor, little quirks of the common model can seem frustrating; you might feel as though they're unnecessary hassles that don't make any sense. But you need to understand that there's a reason for it. I know there's been a bit of a backlash here because a lot of us who have freelanced know all too well the perils of the relationship, and it's of course natural that there are going to be more freelancers than clients in the world; however, it's a point that should be made: this is exactly how things should work between a client and a vendor. There is no other option. I'm very sorry, but that's how it is.
When you go to a lunch with a freelancer, it is absolutely different from a sales meeting or any other business meeting. You're asking questions about business that can be done, and she or he is responding. When you're at a lunch talking with someone who might do business with you in the future, or who might be a potential client of yours, or what have you, you're talking about possibilities and work that might be done if both parties so choose. But when you're at lunch with a freelancer, someone hired to consult with you about design work, you are consulting; and therefore they are doing their job. That's the simple reality: they need to get paid for their work.
I know you're just a guy wondering where all these little charges are coming from, and it may seem overwhelming. One thing that may help is seeing it from the vendor's perspective. It's obvious that you're not a "nightmare client," but every freelancer that's been out there for even a small amount of time has met them, so I'm sure your client has had them, too. These nightmare clients call constantly wanting little changes and adjustments to a project on a 'pro bono' basis; they'll call and ask for what they think is a tiny shift in design, and then expect or even ask that that work be done for free. And far more common is the type of client that will want to have long conversations spitballing possible plans for the future that are just off-the-cuff, as though they were in an in-house business meeting, and then not pay for these conversations. A very bold line has be drawn between "paid employee" and "freelance vendor," and this is how to draw it: by billing carefully.
Like I said, I can tell you're not one of those clients who does that. I can tell you're not trying to get a bunch of work for free, not trying to sneak in help on this or that other project without having her or him bill for it. And I don't want even to imply that you'd be like that. But please see it from the designer's perspective; this is standard operating procedure because that situation is really the one to avoid in this game.
KokuRyu: “If this guy is unwilling to manage the relationship, drop him. You've got $22k, and that can buy very good service.”
Well – I don't know if I'd be that hasty.
It's really a question of what you value. You can't make him do business differently, and if my experience means anything I think it would be pointless to try. I think you just have to make a judgment about what's worth more to you; keeping the great design work you have right now coming, or having a friendlier relationship with your vendor? If having a friendly relationship with your vendor means more, then by all means drop this guy and find somebody you'd prefer working with on a personal level. But if the good design is what you care about – and given the vicissitudes of business, I think that's the important thing here – then I imagine the only thing you can do is suck it up, tell yourself that this is just the way of doing business with most vendors, and move forward (keeping a close eye on making sure you're not overbilled.)
Short version: I don't think there's anything you can do about this, unfortunately. Accept it or find somebody else.
posted by koeselitz at 11:30 AM on March 2, 2010 [4 favorites]
Shortest possible answer:
Like you, I would be annoyed and a little hurt to be billed for a rare lunch with a trusted freelancer.
However, f I liked the service I usually received from this person, I would suck it up.
Maybe I would schedule our next lunch differently (pick up the tab, have it as a more formal meeting, do it by Skype, or just go into the lunch expecting to be invoiced for the time).
posted by pseudostrabismus at 11:42 AM on March 2, 2010
Like you, I would be annoyed and a little hurt to be billed for a rare lunch with a trusted freelancer.
However, f I liked the service I usually received from this person, I would suck it up.
Maybe I would schedule our next lunch differently (pick up the tab, have it as a more formal meeting, do it by Skype, or just go into the lunch expecting to be invoiced for the time).
posted by pseudostrabismus at 11:42 AM on March 2, 2010
@John, why can’t you send an email similar to below? Acknowledge the positives. Point out that you do bring in a continuing stream of income (I’m sure he knows that). As a freelancer I would not know that someone feels nickel and dimed, so if someone told me that in a polite and respectful way, I would not be bothered by it. Just put it on the table so you know about it moving forward.
Also, for the record, it sounds like you are a great client. You pay almost immediately? You see value in quality work? Asking something small like the above once would not be crossing the line. It also may allow him to see your perspective.
Dear Freelancer X,
Freelancer X, I have really enjoyed working with you over the years. As you know, I have given you ~$20000/year because I highly respect your work ; it is impeccable, blah, blah, blah [insert complimentary adjectives here].
I just wanted address something that bothered me recently. I noticed that you charged me for the time during the lunch. Moving forward, could you let me know beforehand if you will be charging me for consulting during lunch or when we will be on the clock? For some reason, it just bothered me and I felt as if I were being “nickel-and-dimed”.
I still plan to work with you, and again, respect your work, but please let know in advance when I will be paying for your business services.
Hope the plans for your marriage are going well [phrase acknowlading his personal life]
Best regards,
John
Gift baskets and cards? You probably could find people who give you this – but we all know that you may lose someone who gives you high quality work. It would also take time away from your business wouldn’t it? Experiment for a few months and it may not be the same quality of work? But if cards, gifts, are that important to you….
Similar to some of the other posters above, if a client told me they wanted cards and thank you and wanted to be my BFF, I would become busy for the rest of the year (in essence, fire the client).
posted by Wolfster at 11:59 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also, for the record, it sounds like you are a great client. You pay almost immediately? You see value in quality work? Asking something small like the above once would not be crossing the line. It also may allow him to see your perspective.
Dear Freelancer X,
Freelancer X, I have really enjoyed working with you over the years. As you know, I have given you ~$20000/year because I highly respect your work ; it is impeccable, blah, blah, blah [insert complimentary adjectives here].
I just wanted address something that bothered me recently. I noticed that you charged me for the time during the lunch. Moving forward, could you let me know beforehand if you will be charging me for consulting during lunch or when we will be on the clock? For some reason, it just bothered me and I felt as if I were being “nickel-and-dimed”.
I still plan to work with you, and again, respect your work, but please let know in advance when I will be paying for your business services.
Hope the plans for your marriage are going well [phrase acknowlading his personal life]
Best regards,
John
Gift baskets and cards? You probably could find people who give you this – but we all know that you may lose someone who gives you high quality work. It would also take time away from your business wouldn’t it? Experiment for a few months and it may not be the same quality of work? But if cards, gifts, are that important to you….
Similar to some of the other posters above, if a client told me they wanted cards and thank you and wanted to be my BFF, I would become busy for the rest of the year (in essence, fire the client).
posted by Wolfster at 11:59 AM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
He does great work. It's annoying that the meter is always running. It would be nice, and good business, for him to occasionally thank you for the business you give him.
It's an annoyance. Blow it off. He gave you good value at lunch. Maybe he felt that it wasn't cool of you to bring up business when he bought lunch. Whatever; it's not worth the attention. It's hard to find people who do good, honest work.
I had an accountant who said "I'll pick up those documents; I'm going to be in your area anyway" and then billed me for the walk to and from her office. This guy is very far from that. I would not rock this boat.
posted by theora55 at 12:24 PM on March 2, 2010
It's an annoyance. Blow it off. He gave you good value at lunch. Maybe he felt that it wasn't cool of you to bring up business when he bought lunch. Whatever; it's not worth the attention. It's hard to find people who do good, honest work.
I had an accountant who said "I'll pick up those documents; I'm going to be in your area anyway" and then billed me for the walk to and from her office. This guy is very far from that. I would not rock this boat.
posted by theora55 at 12:24 PM on March 2, 2010
Maybe $22k a year in services isn't as large a number to him as it is you? He may very well have clients that pay that sort of invoice a month.
Factoring in the taxes and health insurance he has to shell out for each year depending on how much he makes, your $22k could mean take-home is something more like $11-14k.
Not to say that he should treat his clients any differently, but it sounds like you two just need to have a "here's where we're at" talk.
Last week I visited his city (where I lived until five years ago) and arranged a lunch. We typically meet face-to-face only once or twice a year. Naturally, the conversation included discussion of possible website changes.
If this happens once or twice a year and he'd never previously billed you, he may have realized that you were getting free consulting from him this entire time. It does seem off that he paid for the lunch and then billed you, though. I'd just touch-base and see what is going on; it may be anything from a misunderstanding to a change in policy.
posted by june made him a gemini at 12:37 PM on March 2, 2010
Factoring in the taxes and health insurance he has to shell out for each year depending on how much he makes, your $22k could mean take-home is something more like $11-14k.
Not to say that he should treat his clients any differently, but it sounds like you two just need to have a "here's where we're at" talk.
Last week I visited his city (where I lived until five years ago) and arranged a lunch. We typically meet face-to-face only once or twice a year. Naturally, the conversation included discussion of possible website changes.
If this happens once or twice a year and he'd never previously billed you, he may have realized that you were getting free consulting from him this entire time. It does seem off that he paid for the lunch and then billed you, though. I'd just touch-base and see what is going on; it may be anything from a misunderstanding to a change in policy.
posted by june made him a gemini at 12:37 PM on March 2, 2010
His way of working is to be extremely transparent. Which is nice in some ways.
What he could be doing is what a lot of contractors do, which is charging you for 8-10 hours of work when you give them a job that will take 5-6 (or inflating the hourly rate to similar ends). Your lunchtime consult could then be "free" except, of course, you would be paying for it, you just wouldn't see that you were paying for it. (And you would also be paying for 2-3 other lunches with the clients who don't end up giving him any work.)
If you would prefer to be treated this way, I'm sure you can find another vendor who'd be thrilled to oblige.
posted by kindall at 12:55 PM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
What he could be doing is what a lot of contractors do, which is charging you for 8-10 hours of work when you give them a job that will take 5-6 (or inflating the hourly rate to similar ends). Your lunchtime consult could then be "free" except, of course, you would be paying for it, you just wouldn't see that you were paying for it. (And you would also be paying for 2-3 other lunches with the clients who don't end up giving him any work.)
If you would prefer to be treated this way, I'm sure you can find another vendor who'd be thrilled to oblige.
posted by kindall at 12:55 PM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
OP: What's wrong with my expectation that he not bill me for .5 hours, in view of the approximately $22,000 he's earned every year?
I think what's wrong with this is that it's an expectation--I find it bizarre that, essentially, you expect him to do unpaid work for you because you have a previous working relationship. Yeah, $22k could be a lot of business (or not--we don't really know that), but the very term "prior business" means that while you paid him $22k, he also gave you $22k's worth of work. It wasn't a gift, it was earned. True, sometimes vendors or business associates will send gift baskets or woo you with lunch to encourage more business or sweeten the relationship, but to me it seems strange that you have an expectation that after a certain dollar value you're entitled to free work from him. It would be nice if he comped you, but it's not strange or wrong that he didn't.
Nthing, by a thousand, the freelancers who are telling you that this is SOP. Really. If you consulted him during lunch about projects, that counts as work.
Sideline: I also think it's a little strange that people are brought up short that the freelancer paid for the meal, then billed for part of the working time. Wouldn't it be stranger if OP paid for everything, and then received a further invoice? (I still think this would fall under the "if you talked shop, then you get billed" umbrella, but I'd think it would be even more of an adding-insult-to-injury situation for the OP.)
posted by alleycat01 at 1:12 PM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think what's wrong with this is that it's an expectation--I find it bizarre that, essentially, you expect him to do unpaid work for you because you have a previous working relationship. Yeah, $22k could be a lot of business (or not--we don't really know that), but the very term "prior business" means that while you paid him $22k, he also gave you $22k's worth of work. It wasn't a gift, it was earned. True, sometimes vendors or business associates will send gift baskets or woo you with lunch to encourage more business or sweeten the relationship, but to me it seems strange that you have an expectation that after a certain dollar value you're entitled to free work from him. It would be nice if he comped you, but it's not strange or wrong that he didn't.
Nthing, by a thousand, the freelancers who are telling you that this is SOP. Really. If you consulted him during lunch about projects, that counts as work.
Sideline: I also think it's a little strange that people are brought up short that the freelancer paid for the meal, then billed for part of the working time. Wouldn't it be stranger if OP paid for everything, and then received a further invoice? (I still think this would fall under the "if you talked shop, then you get billed" umbrella, but I'd think it would be even more of an adding-insult-to-injury situation for the OP.)
posted by alleycat01 at 1:12 PM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Former design (web and print) freelancer:
I hated clients and "friends" taking me out for lunch/beer (or who I invited for same) and trying to have work related conversations. First I would just add a couple of billable hours to the project to account for all these informal consultation, but it felt wrong. It stopped when I started saying something like "If you want to talk work, I will have to write you an invoice, and paying for the food does not cover it". Some got offended, most dropped the subject and made a proper appointment, a few agreed to be billed later.
For some reason, clients seem to think that designers work at a different level of professionalism than doctors, lawyers or auto mechanics.
Now when I deal with freelancers as a client, I am very specific. I say stuff like "Want to go for lunch on such and such date? We can discuss work for an hour (or half) and then relax", they seem to appreciate it.
posted by dirty lies at 1:18 PM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
I hated clients and "friends" taking me out for lunch/beer (or who I invited for same) and trying to have work related conversations. First I would just add a couple of billable hours to the project to account for all these informal consultation, but it felt wrong. It stopped when I started saying something like "If you want to talk work, I will have to write you an invoice, and paying for the food does not cover it". Some got offended, most dropped the subject and made a proper appointment, a few agreed to be billed later.
For some reason, clients seem to think that designers work at a different level of professionalism than doctors, lawyers or auto mechanics.
Now when I deal with freelancers as a client, I am very specific. I say stuff like "Want to go for lunch on such and such date? We can discuss work for an hour (or half) and then relax", they seem to appreciate it.
posted by dirty lies at 1:18 PM on March 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Frankly, I wouldn't really care - or even notice, probably - if he tacked that .5 hours onto another invoice.
In that case, this problem is entirely within your own head, and can be disposed of by an attitude adjustment on your part. It doesn't require any change at all in your vendor's behavior. Just pay him his nickels and dimes, and be grateful you've found somebody whose work is worth what you're paying for it.
I don't want to tell him that, however.
Why not? Are you really, truly trying to nickel-and-dime him? Don't be that guy.
In any case, this question isn't anonymous, so there's a fair chance he already knows.
posted by flabdablet at 2:45 PM on March 2, 2010
In that case, this problem is entirely within your own head, and can be disposed of by an attitude adjustment on your part. It doesn't require any change at all in your vendor's behavior. Just pay him his nickels and dimes, and be grateful you've found somebody whose work is worth what you're paying for it.
I don't want to tell him that, however.
Why not? Are you really, truly trying to nickel-and-dime him? Don't be that guy.
In any case, this question isn't anonymous, so there's a fair chance he already knows.
posted by flabdablet at 2:45 PM on March 2, 2010
If this guy was say, a three man shop, and you were talking to the "sales" guy at all times about your prospective work (be it new or additional work on previous sites) you would probably not be billed. That's because it's that guy's job to talk to you about new work, and he will be paid on commission when you seal the deal or just gets a salary to do this sort of thing.
Your freelancer does not have a sales department, and every hour he spends talking to you, congenially or not, he could be doing other paid work. He has to invoice you in order to keep his time profitable, and also to discourage friendly, if overly long, discussions that are not part of active projects.
It's different when you are dealing with someone who's moonlighting, as they don't depend on their 8-10 hrs per day to pay the bills. I think you just need to respect this guy's time and maybe just ask to be sure that you know when you're "on the clock." I mean, not to be crazy or anything, but you as the client can be just as fired as him the designer.
posted by Medieval Maven at 2:49 PM on March 2, 2010
Your freelancer does not have a sales department, and every hour he spends talking to you, congenially or not, he could be doing other paid work. He has to invoice you in order to keep his time profitable, and also to discourage friendly, if overly long, discussions that are not part of active projects.
It's different when you are dealing with someone who's moonlighting, as they don't depend on their 8-10 hrs per day to pay the bills. I think you just need to respect this guy's time and maybe just ask to be sure that you know when you're "on the clock." I mean, not to be crazy or anything, but you as the client can be just as fired as him the designer.
posted by Medieval Maven at 2:49 PM on March 2, 2010
Your freelancer does not have a sales department, and every hour he spends talking to you, congenially or not, he could be doing other paid work.
This is not your problem. Business development is part of costs of being a freelancer. You're a consistent, reliable client with a stellar payment history. His work is valuable and your business is valuable. He was discussing future work which you could take to another vendor. That's business development.
I certainly wouldn't ditch a vendor over it, but I would tell him that I don't like receiving billing surprises - even small ones. He needs to clearly communicate when he's going on the clock.
posted by 26.2 at 7:42 PM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is not your problem. Business development is part of costs of being a freelancer. You're a consistent, reliable client with a stellar payment history. His work is valuable and your business is valuable. He was discussing future work which you could take to another vendor. That's business development.
I certainly wouldn't ditch a vendor over it, but I would tell him that I don't like receiving billing surprises - even small ones. He needs to clearly communicate when he's going on the clock.
posted by 26.2 at 7:42 PM on March 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
Actually, I'm not certain why individuals would think the freelancer is anything but on the clock, unless he tells you so.
From what freelancers are telling the OP, it sounds like the 'billing surprise' was only because the OP isn't familiar with the standard operating procedure. I think it's fine that the the OP wants 'clock' clarification - perhaps it would also be okay if the answer was 'every minute we talk, unless I say we aren't'?
posted by anitanita at 8:02 PM on March 2, 2010
From what freelancers are telling the OP, it sounds like the 'billing surprise' was only because the OP isn't familiar with the standard operating procedure. I think it's fine that the the OP wants 'clock' clarification - perhaps it would also be okay if the answer was 'every minute we talk, unless I say we aren't'?
posted by anitanita at 8:02 PM on March 2, 2010
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posted by craven_morhead at 8:16 AM on March 2, 2010