How stupid am I?
February 28, 2010 4:01 PM Subscribe
This question is for anyone with plumbing knowledge.
I just moved in to a new place. I asked the landlord if I could change out the showerhead, and they said that would be fine. A day or two later, I tried to remove the shower head, but it wouldn't loosen, so I stopped and figured I'd ask the landlord to install it when we spoke again the next time.
A day passes. I notice that water is now slowly seeping from beneath the wall that connects the bedroom with the bathroom. It does this whether or not the shower is running. I've been here for less than a week.
Here are the facts that make me worry I caused this by monkeying with the shower head connection too hard:
1) The timing of the two things.
2) The amount of water that is seeping out must be a new development, because it would have caused major damage if it had been going on for even a week without being addressed. The apartment stood empty before I rented it for about a month, I think. If the problem did exist before I arrived, it must have gotten dramatically worse once I started using the plumbing for showers, washing dishes, etc.
Here are the facts that make me think I couldn't have caused this:
1) The thin pipe the shower head connects to is rock solid; it has no play in it at all when I try to wiggle it.
2) The water pressure from the shower head remains the same. It has not lost any pressure at all.
3) The plumber came by and pulled out the knob beneath the shower head that controls the temperature of the water/turns the water on and off. He looked in and everything was dry (this would be about halfway between the ground and the shower head), which he said meant there was no leak above that point at the very least. This leads me to believe that if my attempt to unscrew the shower head caused this, the force traveled all the way down the tube and caused damage somewhere below the knob that adjusts the water temperature. This seems unlikely, but I don't know how unlikely. Note that he could not see more than an inch or two below or above the control knob into the wall that contains the plumbing.
Some work was done with the sink in the kitchen, but that does not share a wall with the bathroom and is likely unrelated.
My questions:
1) How likely is it that I made this mess by putting too much pressure on the shower head connection when I tried to unscrew it? Imagine a scenario where I applied way too much force. (I may have. I don't know what too much force is.) My memory of the moment is hard to dredge up, since I paid it no importance at the time, but I *may* have felt something move when I turned the pliers I was using to try to grip the connection. Is that even possible, since there is no play in the shower pipe at all?
2) How important would this information be for the plumber when he returns with more equipment and tries to diagnose the situation?
3) How likely is it that the problem existed on a much smaller scale before I moved in, and then became dramatically worse after someone started to regularly use the plumbing again?
4) General advice on how to avoid assuming liability I don't deserve AND on how to not be a total douche and make someone else pay for something that is my fault would be appreciated. As of yet, I have not shared the shower head story with anyone because I am worried that no matter how honest the landlord and plumber are, they would naturally start to bend facts to put blame (and financial liability) on my shoulders. Would I be wrong to let this play out until a cause is determined before speaking up?
I just moved in to a new place. I asked the landlord if I could change out the showerhead, and they said that would be fine. A day or two later, I tried to remove the shower head, but it wouldn't loosen, so I stopped and figured I'd ask the landlord to install it when we spoke again the next time.
A day passes. I notice that water is now slowly seeping from beneath the wall that connects the bedroom with the bathroom. It does this whether or not the shower is running. I've been here for less than a week.
Here are the facts that make me worry I caused this by monkeying with the shower head connection too hard:
1) The timing of the two things.
2) The amount of water that is seeping out must be a new development, because it would have caused major damage if it had been going on for even a week without being addressed. The apartment stood empty before I rented it for about a month, I think. If the problem did exist before I arrived, it must have gotten dramatically worse once I started using the plumbing for showers, washing dishes, etc.
Here are the facts that make me think I couldn't have caused this:
1) The thin pipe the shower head connects to is rock solid; it has no play in it at all when I try to wiggle it.
2) The water pressure from the shower head remains the same. It has not lost any pressure at all.
3) The plumber came by and pulled out the knob beneath the shower head that controls the temperature of the water/turns the water on and off. He looked in and everything was dry (this would be about halfway between the ground and the shower head), which he said meant there was no leak above that point at the very least. This leads me to believe that if my attempt to unscrew the shower head caused this, the force traveled all the way down the tube and caused damage somewhere below the knob that adjusts the water temperature. This seems unlikely, but I don't know how unlikely. Note that he could not see more than an inch or two below or above the control knob into the wall that contains the plumbing.
Some work was done with the sink in the kitchen, but that does not share a wall with the bathroom and is likely unrelated.
My questions:
1) How likely is it that I made this mess by putting too much pressure on the shower head connection when I tried to unscrew it? Imagine a scenario where I applied way too much force. (I may have. I don't know what too much force is.) My memory of the moment is hard to dredge up, since I paid it no importance at the time, but I *may* have felt something move when I turned the pliers I was using to try to grip the connection. Is that even possible, since there is no play in the shower pipe at all?
2) How important would this information be for the plumber when he returns with more equipment and tries to diagnose the situation?
3) How likely is it that the problem existed on a much smaller scale before I moved in, and then became dramatically worse after someone started to regularly use the plumbing again?
4) General advice on how to avoid assuming liability I don't deserve AND on how to not be a total douche and make someone else pay for something that is my fault would be appreciated. As of yet, I have not shared the shower head story with anyone because I am worried that no matter how honest the landlord and plumber are, they would naturally start to bend facts to put blame (and financial liability) on my shoulders. Would I be wrong to let this play out until a cause is determined before speaking up?
The pipe that sticks out of the wall onto which the shower head screws into is itself a pipe that's threaded on both ends and can be unscrewed from the wall. It sounds like you loosened it. It wouldn't necessarily have any back-and-forth play because it's still threaded, just not enough to make a water-tight seal. Just grab the pipe with a cloth-covered wrench and tighten it. And to get the showerhead off use two wrenches.
posted by Rhomboid at 5:19 PM on February 28, 2010
posted by Rhomboid at 5:19 PM on February 28, 2010
Being a hack plumber myself, most of my plumbing involves fixing things that I - or my wife breaks. Old plumbing, over ten years and especially over thirty, breaks when the slightest force is applied. Soldered joints are weak.
I'd make sure that the water seeping out of the wall is fixed immediately if not sooner, which will require some demolition and new drywall anyway.
posted by mearls at 5:19 PM on February 28, 2010
I'd make sure that the water seeping out of the wall is fixed immediately if not sooner, which will require some demolition and new drywall anyway.
posted by mearls at 5:19 PM on February 28, 2010
With reference to the shower plumbing diagram and labels on this page:
1) If you applied torque only to the shower head (and/or its compression nut fitting) and not the shower arm, there's zero chance anything you did caused a problem. If you applied torque to the shower arm, however, you could have bent the riser pipe, its top fitting, or damaged its joint at the "tub/shower valve" joint. This is low probability, if the shower arm is still feeling solid, but it is possible you created some kind of leak, below the shower arm fitting, while the shower arm still feels solid to you. That's why you always use two pair of channel lock pliers for this job - one applies torque to the part that you want to loosen, while you apply counter-torque above it, stabilizing the old pipe.
Since water only goes up to the shower arm when diverted there by the "tub/shower valve," why not back down to baths for a few days, and see if water still comes out under the wall? If not, but then it does when you turn on the shower again, you've got proof that something above the "tub/shower valve" is the cause of the problem.
2) I think what you did is potentially relevant to the plumber, if only as a long shot cause of the leakage you now see. I'd show/tell him what you did, to guide his investigation, since the main purpose of his being there is to find and fix the problem.
3) I think you've actually got a problem with the drain pain or drain fitting below the tub. It's not uncommon for the plumber's putty at that joint to dry out, creating a leak, particularly when plumbing hasn't been used in a while. You could diagnose that by leaving the tub/shower water completely off, while using a 5 gallon bucket to draw water elsewhere, and then pour it, bucket by bucket, down the tub drain. If the problem reappears then, you know the leak is at or below the tub outlet.
4) Do the tests I've outlined in 1 & 3, and see what the results are. If you can establish that the problem is a leaky tub drain, you are 100% in the clear. If you can establish the problem as being with the shower wall pipe, top fitting, or shower arm, 'fess up. I don't think you'd be "wrong" to say nothing until the plumber returns and figures out and corrects the problem, definitively, so long as if you know you did the damage, that you pay for the repair (unlikely).
posted by paulsc at 5:21 PM on February 28, 2010
1) If you applied torque only to the shower head (and/or its compression nut fitting) and not the shower arm, there's zero chance anything you did caused a problem. If you applied torque to the shower arm, however, you could have bent the riser pipe, its top fitting, or damaged its joint at the "tub/shower valve" joint. This is low probability, if the shower arm is still feeling solid, but it is possible you created some kind of leak, below the shower arm fitting, while the shower arm still feels solid to you. That's why you always use two pair of channel lock pliers for this job - one applies torque to the part that you want to loosen, while you apply counter-torque above it, stabilizing the old pipe.
Since water only goes up to the shower arm when diverted there by the "tub/shower valve," why not back down to baths for a few days, and see if water still comes out under the wall? If not, but then it does when you turn on the shower again, you've got proof that something above the "tub/shower valve" is the cause of the problem.
2) I think what you did is potentially relevant to the plumber, if only as a long shot cause of the leakage you now see. I'd show/tell him what you did, to guide his investigation, since the main purpose of his being there is to find and fix the problem.
3) I think you've actually got a problem with the drain pain or drain fitting below the tub. It's not uncommon for the plumber's putty at that joint to dry out, creating a leak, particularly when plumbing hasn't been used in a while. You could diagnose that by leaving the tub/shower water completely off, while using a 5 gallon bucket to draw water elsewhere, and then pour it, bucket by bucket, down the tub drain. If the problem reappears then, you know the leak is at or below the tub outlet.
4) Do the tests I've outlined in 1 & 3, and see what the results are. If you can establish that the problem is a leaky tub drain, you are 100% in the clear. If you can establish the problem as being with the shower wall pipe, top fitting, or shower arm, 'fess up. I don't think you'd be "wrong" to say nothing until the plumber returns and figures out and corrects the problem, definitively, so long as if you know you did the damage, that you pay for the repair (unlikely).
posted by paulsc at 5:21 PM on February 28, 2010
The plumber came by and didn't fix the problem. Bad plumber.
posted by ovvl at 5:48 PM on February 28, 2010
posted by ovvl at 5:48 PM on February 28, 2010
From the original poster:
Rhombold: Your scenario would mean the water is coming from above, where the shower arm screws into the pipe. The plumber seems certain that is not the case (#3 in the "reasons I don't think I caused this" section)posted by mathowie at 6:41 PM on February 28, 2010
Old Geezer:
1) I held onto the shower arm with my hand to try to stabilize it while trying to turn the nut that connected the shower arm to the shower head with a vice grip. I didn't apply any torque with my hand on the shower arm; I just gripped it.
2) I don't remember. I think it was some sort of metal rather than plastic.
3) I think I used the shower after all this & before I noticed the water. The plumber looked into the wall that afternoon, many hours later.
Paulsc: The water leaks even when I'm not taking a shower--or using any water at all, for that matter. Does that affect your understanding of the situation? Am I guiltless here?
As for your proposed tests--the thing leaks even when no water is being used.
Ovvl: I think the plumber's all right. It was Friday afternoon, and everything to do with the plumbing for this is behind tile that will have to be demolished, assuming that's where the problem is, or possibly beneath the concrete floor, which is an even bigger mess. I don't blame him for not acting in haste, and I don't mind living with the water shut off for a few days until it gets straightened out.
One more note: The shower does not have a "tub spout," as per the diagram in paulsc's link. It's a shower-only stall.
If it's leaking when you're not even using the shower/bath then it's probably not to do with the shower head because water only goes up that pipe when you turn the shower on. You can rip the entire assembly out of the wall and as long as it's turned off you won't cause a leak, it's not like a sink with shutoff valves underneath and water constantly present in the pipes right up to the faucet. Therefore the leak is coming from the supply pipes or some other piping and not the shower assembly.
It's possible the plumber did something when he was there to cause the leak too, I'm not sure from your description what he was doing.
Either way you should call your landlord asap, that could be a significant leak.
posted by fshgrl at 7:12 PM on February 28, 2010
It's possible the plumber did something when he was there to cause the leak too, I'm not sure from your description what he was doing.
Either way you should call your landlord asap, that could be a significant leak.
posted by fshgrl at 7:12 PM on February 28, 2010
I'm going to guess that there is a 10% chance it's your fault and a 90% chance it's not. If you really tweaked on the pipe, the torque from that could have been transferred down below the valve assembly to a weak place in the pipe that split. As I say, this is not very likely. If the leak occurs when you are not using the shower and continues well after you have shut off the water (can you see water actually flowing, not leaking?) then it doesn't seem reasonable that your efforts did anything..
Here is the 10% bit: If, when you were twisting the pipe, you cracked it right above valve, the water that accumulated in the pipe above the valve would slowly drip back out onto the floor inside the wall. After a while (long after you had left the shower) it could then seep out of the wall. The area directly above the valve could appear dry by the time the plumber looked at it. You could turn on the shower while he is looking at it, wait a few minutes and see if there is any water dripping down on the valve body.
Obviously, you need a plumber. You need to instruct the plumber to show you where the leak was. If it was below the valve, I would feel free in believing you did not cause it. If it was as I describe above, it might be your fault.
Good luck.
posted by Old Geezer at 8:08 PM on February 28, 2010
Here is the 10% bit: If, when you were twisting the pipe, you cracked it right above valve, the water that accumulated in the pipe above the valve would slowly drip back out onto the floor inside the wall. After a while (long after you had left the shower) it could then seep out of the wall. The area directly above the valve could appear dry by the time the plumber looked at it. You could turn on the shower while he is looking at it, wait a few minutes and see if there is any water dripping down on the valve body.
Obviously, you need a plumber. You need to instruct the plumber to show you where the leak was. If it was below the valve, I would feel free in believing you did not cause it. If it was as I describe above, it might be your fault.
Good luck.
posted by Old Geezer at 8:08 PM on February 28, 2010
"... The plumber came by and pulled out the knob beneath the shower head that controls the temperature of the water/turns the water on and off. He looked in and everything was dry (this would be about halfway between the ground and the shower head), which he said meant there was no leak above that point at the very least. ..."
The most likely causes of major constant water leakage in a single valve apartment shower-only stall, with a single mix valve control are:
1) Polybutelyne or other plastic water pipe/tubing that has split. This stuff was hugely popular from the mid-'80s, especially in commercial buildings and apartments, and some developments have thousands of feet of the stuff, that they have little choice but to keep repairing, again and again, as new splits and leaks develop, generally at or near the plastic fittings forming joints or at fittings. It's conceivable that if you jostled the shower arm enough to transmit some movement, you could have instigated a split at a fitting below. But the fault is really with the plastic plumbing. Note that a lot of this stuff is terminated in short runs of copper tubing at bathroom and kitchen fixtures, using plastic to copper fittings, as this allows conventional plumbing faucets and appliance fittings to be easily used.
2) A leaking shower floor pan (plastic, fiberglas or copper), or moisture barrier beneath the tile work, if your shower is tiled floor. Water accumulates as you take a shower, and then slowly leaks out, giving the appearance of a larger, or more constant leak.
3) A leaking mixer valve. As your plumber visually looked at this, I doubt this is the cause of the problem.
posted by paulsc at 8:45 PM on February 28, 2010
The most likely causes of major constant water leakage in a single valve apartment shower-only stall, with a single mix valve control are:
1) Polybutelyne or other plastic water pipe/tubing that has split. This stuff was hugely popular from the mid-'80s, especially in commercial buildings and apartments, and some developments have thousands of feet of the stuff, that they have little choice but to keep repairing, again and again, as new splits and leaks develop, generally at or near the plastic fittings forming joints or at fittings. It's conceivable that if you jostled the shower arm enough to transmit some movement, you could have instigated a split at a fitting below. But the fault is really with the plastic plumbing. Note that a lot of this stuff is terminated in short runs of copper tubing at bathroom and kitchen fixtures, using plastic to copper fittings, as this allows conventional plumbing faucets and appliance fittings to be easily used.
2) A leaking shower floor pan (plastic, fiberglas or copper), or moisture barrier beneath the tile work, if your shower is tiled floor. Water accumulates as you take a shower, and then slowly leaks out, giving the appearance of a larger, or more constant leak.
3) A leaking mixer valve. As your plumber visually looked at this, I doubt this is the cause of the problem.
posted by paulsc at 8:45 PM on February 28, 2010
To figure out whether it's a leak from the shower floor, leave the shower water off (quit taking showers for a few days) and see if the leak stops. If you don't like that idea, pour a bottle of food coloring on the shower floor and run a little water on it, then watch the water leak for a day to see if the water is colored.
posted by exphysicist345 at 8:32 PM on March 1, 2010
posted by exphysicist345 at 8:32 PM on March 1, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
1. How did you try to remove the shower head? Did you grip the pipe coming out of the wall and then grip the shower head with a second pair of pliers, or did you just try and twist?
2. When the plumber looked into the wall was it a plastic pipe going up from the shower valve or a copper or iron pipe going up?
3. Have you used the shower since you tried your twisting exercise? How long after you used it did the plumber look into the wall?
O.K. Maybe more than a couple of questions. Get back to us.
posted by Old Geezer at 4:54 PM on February 28, 2010