In search of SWF, Flakes Need Not Apply
February 21, 2010 3:46 PM Subscribe
Online dating - help me figure out what I'm doing wrong! Multi-part question inside
I've been trying online dating for a while now and am starting to wonder if I'm just doing this all wrong. I started out on Match a little over a year ago - I was on for three months; forgot how many people I contacted but only had about 3-4 conversations (none led to a date). I deleted my account for reasons I won't go into here, then decided to try again with the much-venerated OkCupid.
I've been on almost three months and have messaged about 25 women. Of those, I've only had three contact me back. Two flaked out and stopped talking to me within 2-3 emails - the best I can figure is they were either window-shopping or met someone better. The third exchange was sort of complex: we seemed to hit it off really well, but I held off on suggesting a date due to workloads (we were both respectively swamped that week). I re-initiated contact the next week - after another week of very chatty, increasingly lengthy e-mails I finally thought "enough" and suggested we meet up offline. She never contacted me again.
I have had a couple of women contact me out of the blue as well. I did have a "normal" email conversation with one that led to a date, but we went our separate ways due to a lack of chemistry. The other seemed enthusiastic (and cute!), but again disappeared with no warning after only 3-4 emails.
My emails are okay I think, pretty much along the lines of what's discussed here.
So first question: Are response rates really this low for most guys? I know these sites are by nature biased in a woman's favor, but it seems like several months of online "dating" should be able to produce more than one actual date. I don't personally know anyone else who's tried internet dating (all my friends married young) so I have no one to compare notes with.
Second question: What can I do to improve? My profile might not be the wittiest or most clever (I have a lot of strengths, but comedy is not one of them), but unlike 90% of profiles I think it's through and unique. I'm not posting a link to it for obvious reasons, but would be happy to MeFi-mail a link to anyone interested in providing a critique.
Thanks in advance for any helpful advice!
I've been trying online dating for a while now and am starting to wonder if I'm just doing this all wrong. I started out on Match a little over a year ago - I was on for three months; forgot how many people I contacted but only had about 3-4 conversations (none led to a date). I deleted my account for reasons I won't go into here, then decided to try again with the much-venerated OkCupid.
I've been on almost three months and have messaged about 25 women. Of those, I've only had three contact me back. Two flaked out and stopped talking to me within 2-3 emails - the best I can figure is they were either window-shopping or met someone better. The third exchange was sort of complex: we seemed to hit it off really well, but I held off on suggesting a date due to workloads (we were both respectively swamped that week). I re-initiated contact the next week - after another week of very chatty, increasingly lengthy e-mails I finally thought "enough" and suggested we meet up offline. She never contacted me again.
I have had a couple of women contact me out of the blue as well. I did have a "normal" email conversation with one that led to a date, but we went our separate ways due to a lack of chemistry. The other seemed enthusiastic (and cute!), but again disappeared with no warning after only 3-4 emails.
My emails are okay I think, pretty much along the lines of what's discussed here.
So first question: Are response rates really this low for most guys? I know these sites are by nature biased in a woman's favor, but it seems like several months of online "dating" should be able to produce more than one actual date. I don't personally know anyone else who's tried internet dating (all my friends married young) so I have no one to compare notes with.
Second question: What can I do to improve? My profile might not be the wittiest or most clever (I have a lot of strengths, but comedy is not one of them), but unlike 90% of profiles I think it's through and unique. I'm not posting a link to it for obvious reasons, but would be happy to MeFi-mail a link to anyone interested in providing a critique.
Thanks in advance for any helpful advice!
Don't treat online dating as a panacea - it should be just another pool of potential mates. You should still go out, meet new people, etc. etc. If you're looking to improve your "standing" in the vast pool of dudes that is online dating, a couple things should help out:
1) Update your profile at least once a month - be it with a new book or a movie you saw or jsust something new and interesting. This will usually put you at the top of the heap when people do searches for guys who are like you.
2) Take and upload new and recent pictures of yourself. If you don't like doing this, you may want to work on some self-improvement as well.
All that being said, keep your chin up and keep trying, both online and off.
posted by squorch at 4:08 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
1) Update your profile at least once a month - be it with a new book or a movie you saw or jsust something new and interesting. This will usually put you at the top of the heap when people do searches for guys who are like you.
2) Take and upload new and recent pictures of yourself. If you don't like doing this, you may want to work on some self-improvement as well.
All that being said, keep your chin up and keep trying, both online and off.
posted by squorch at 4:08 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Seconding MadamM. You've probably already seen these, but I'll repost for those who haven't:
Your Looks & Your Inbox (mefi thread)
What to Say in a First Message
If you're still lost, feel free to mefimail me the link to your ad, and I'll do my best to provide as much constructive criticism as possible.
posted by invisible ink at 4:10 PM on February 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Your Looks & Your Inbox (mefi thread)
What to Say in a First Message
If you're still lost, feel free to mefimail me the link to your ad, and I'll do my best to provide as much constructive criticism as possible.
posted by invisible ink at 4:10 PM on February 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
I paid my dues in the online dating world. It's tough, for sure. Most of my time was spent on eharmony, which didn't seem to be much better than any other site, just more expensive. The first thing I'd ask is do you have a good, recent picture up? Head on, relatively close up, no ex gf cut out of the pic? No hat pulled down over your face?
You mention a 'thorough and unique' profile. What I worry is that means, 'I list out every nit picky thing I want in a woman and every bit of baggage I'm bringing in too.' Sometimes you can be too thorough right up front. I'd be glad to look at your profile if you wanted to send me the link.
posted by CwgrlUp at 4:10 PM on February 21, 2010 [3 favorites]
You mention a 'thorough and unique' profile. What I worry is that means, 'I list out every nit picky thing I want in a woman and every bit of baggage I'm bringing in too.' Sometimes you can be too thorough right up front. I'd be glad to look at your profile if you wanted to send me the link.
posted by CwgrlUp at 4:10 PM on February 21, 2010 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm a straight woman. The most significant lesson I learned from my brief (under 6 months') experience of online dating is to move things offline as quickly as possible if I was interested rather than wasting time, as online contact is only about 20% relevant to what someone is like in person.
However, among my half-dozen straight and straightish female friends who were also doing it, there were some who enjoyed online dating as a pleasure in itself. They liked the safety of the online environment because it let them flirt with men without being rushed or feeling threatened. These were the women who tended to get caught in the email trap, engaging in volleys of increasingly long and personal emails with less and less inclination to actually meet up.
There were other women who were overwhelmed by the number and variety of responses and who, like novice managers confronted with their first hiring decision, got flustered and looked more for reasons to eliminate candidates than to select them.
It's also so uncomfortable for some women, including me, to turn a man down in person, especially if we initiated the face-to-face contact, that we will avoid meeting up altogether if there is any doubt rather than have to disappoint/reject a decent guy.
Online dating is weird -- more like job hunting than interacting socially with, you know, humans. You have to be prepared to work in volume and let go of your need to overanalyze people's reasons for not getting back to you. I'm happy to take a look at your profile, but your hit rate seems pretty good, actually.
posted by stuck on an island at 4:18 PM on February 21, 2010 [9 favorites]
However, among my half-dozen straight and straightish female friends who were also doing it, there were some who enjoyed online dating as a pleasure in itself. They liked the safety of the online environment because it let them flirt with men without being rushed or feeling threatened. These were the women who tended to get caught in the email trap, engaging in volleys of increasingly long and personal emails with less and less inclination to actually meet up.
There were other women who were overwhelmed by the number and variety of responses and who, like novice managers confronted with their first hiring decision, got flustered and looked more for reasons to eliminate candidates than to select them.
It's also so uncomfortable for some women, including me, to turn a man down in person, especially if we initiated the face-to-face contact, that we will avoid meeting up altogether if there is any doubt rather than have to disappoint/reject a decent guy.
Online dating is weird -- more like job hunting than interacting socially with, you know, humans. You have to be prepared to work in volume and let go of your need to overanalyze people's reasons for not getting back to you. I'm happy to take a look at your profile, but your hit rate seems pretty good, actually.
posted by stuck on an island at 4:18 PM on February 21, 2010 [9 favorites]
Are response rates really this low for most guys?
Yes, and that's just how it is. As such don't make your emails very long, and ask her out for coffee/whatever after three or so exchanges. That's what works for me. I recommend taking cwgrlup up on her offer too.
posted by MillMan at 4:20 PM on February 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yes, and that's just how it is. As such don't make your emails very long, and ask her out for coffee/whatever after three or so exchanges. That's what works for me. I recommend taking cwgrlup up on her offer too.
posted by MillMan at 4:20 PM on February 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've been on OKCupid for over a year and have messaged well over 50 people; the majority don't respond, or respond curtly or sometimes rudely. I rarely get messages. Haven't been on a date yet. Sounds to me like you're doing well. Keep trying! Friend of mine was on OKCupid for two years and had about given up, then met his wife there. Good luck!
posted by The otter lady at 4:27 PM on February 21, 2010
posted by The otter lady at 4:27 PM on February 21, 2010
Best answer: Thirding that you might find some answers in the OkCupid blog.
From the entry invisible ink linked: Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten. Could this possible be one thing you're running into?
Also-- I wrote this in another post, but I think it applies here too.
It's true that women get more replies than guys do. But at least in my experience with online dating, that doesn't lead to any more dates. The overwhelmingly vast majority of the replies I got seemed to be from guys who hadn't read my ad at all or thought I, as a human being, was interesting in particular; they seemed to have just focused on my pictures and thought I was attractive enough. I read the thread you linked about writing introductory emails and I think it contains really good advice. So if you are following it, I think you're probably not running into this problem. The only thing I'd add is-- the more conventionally attractive she is, the better it probably is not to mention her looks at all, until you guys are dating.
The last thing I'd suggest is yet another OkCupid blog entry. Are the women you contact skewing younger, for the most part?
posted by Ashley801 at 4:38 PM on February 21, 2010 [3 favorites]
From the entry invisible ink linked: Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten. Could this possible be one thing you're running into?
Also-- I wrote this in another post, but I think it applies here too.
It's true that women get more replies than guys do. But at least in my experience with online dating, that doesn't lead to any more dates. The overwhelmingly vast majority of the replies I got seemed to be from guys who hadn't read my ad at all or thought I, as a human being, was interesting in particular; they seemed to have just focused on my pictures and thought I was attractive enough. I read the thread you linked about writing introductory emails and I think it contains really good advice. So if you are following it, I think you're probably not running into this problem. The only thing I'd add is-- the more conventionally attractive she is, the better it probably is not to mention her looks at all, until you guys are dating.
The last thing I'd suggest is yet another OkCupid blog entry. Are the women you contact skewing younger, for the most part?
posted by Ashley801 at 4:38 PM on February 21, 2010 [3 favorites]
messaged about 25 women. Of those, I've only had three contact me back. Two flaked out and stopped talking to me within 2-3 emails
Those ratios and that experience sound totally normal to me. It's not you, it's them, and it's online dating in general. You might be able to do a little better with some profile tweaks, but not a lot better. It's brutal, and if you're a little bit sensitive, it can make you feel angry and humiliated and bitter. You will get dates if you keep at it, you just need to decide if the process of getting there is worth it for you.
posted by drjimmy11 at 4:41 PM on February 21, 2010
Those ratios and that experience sound totally normal to me. It's not you, it's them, and it's online dating in general. You might be able to do a little better with some profile tweaks, but not a lot better. It's brutal, and if you're a little bit sensitive, it can make you feel angry and humiliated and bitter. You will get dates if you keep at it, you just need to decide if the process of getting there is worth it for you.
posted by drjimmy11 at 4:41 PM on February 21, 2010
Are response rates really this low for most guys?
Yes. I write fairly well articulated emails but I get a response for 1/10 emails I send out. Don't take it personally, it's par for the course.
posted by special-k at 4:46 PM on February 21, 2010
Yes. I write fairly well articulated emails but I get a response for 1/10 emails I send out. Don't take it personally, it's par for the course.
posted by special-k at 4:46 PM on February 21, 2010
This sounds pretty typical: I got lucky off the bat and had a date after 2 weeks that led to a 1-month relationship, then it was 4 months before I got another date (which didn't go anywhere). Then it was another 3 months before a date (which turned in to my current relationship). There were frequent streaks of 7-10+ mails without replies and dismissive replies throughout.
My general advice:
- Keep the initial mails brief and personalized. You can make a great impression without investing a lot here, and the less you write, the less annoying it is when there's no response
- Take a break every now and then so things are fresh. If you're trying hard for too long, you can come off as desperate without realizing it
- Push your boundaries a bit and contact women you think you're not interested in (outside of obvious dealbreakers, of course). The correlation between online compatibility and offline compatibility is not terribly high, and (surprisingly) a lot of women are more attractive in real life than their profile pictures suggest
- Read the OKCupid blog for some statistically-validated help
- If you're not having much luck after a few months, try getting a new set of profile pictures and rewriting your bio from scratch. This isn't easy, but as in the market, diversification is important. Your old profile may not have been as good as you thought
posted by 0xFCAF at 4:49 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
My general advice:
- Keep the initial mails brief and personalized. You can make a great impression without investing a lot here, and the less you write, the less annoying it is when there's no response
- Take a break every now and then so things are fresh. If you're trying hard for too long, you can come off as desperate without realizing it
- Push your boundaries a bit and contact women you think you're not interested in (outside of obvious dealbreakers, of course). The correlation between online compatibility and offline compatibility is not terribly high, and (surprisingly) a lot of women are more attractive in real life than their profile pictures suggest
- Read the OKCupid blog for some statistically-validated help
- If you're not having much luck after a few months, try getting a new set of profile pictures and rewriting your bio from scratch. This isn't easy, but as in the market, diversification is important. Your old profile may not have been as good as you thought
posted by 0xFCAF at 4:49 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: @MadamM: I'm late 20s, male, currently based in a fairly large midwestern American city.
@CwgrlUp: Actually, I believe I'm pretty open-minded. I do have certain things I look for, but am willing to give virtually anyone at least one date. I guess what I meant by "unique" is that I explain what I can bring to the table, that is what sets me apart from the countless other guys out there. Thanks for the offer btw, I'll send you a link when I get a chance.
@stuck on an island: What you describe would actually explain quite a bit! It's like I meet girls willing to talk, but not seriously enough to sacrifice the anonymity and remoteness being online gives them. I understand why, but it's still a bit annoying from a guy's perspective...
@Ashley801: Great advice! I've been digging into the OkCupid blog and found the articles really interesting. Age-wise, I prefer mid-20's to early-30's which seems reasonable. Oddly enough, I have better luck with girls my age or younger - I've never had much luck with the 30+ age group. I think the girls I contact are either average or slightly above, but that's just my opinion - looks of course are hard to quantify.
posted by photo guy at 4:59 PM on February 21, 2010
@CwgrlUp: Actually, I believe I'm pretty open-minded. I do have certain things I look for, but am willing to give virtually anyone at least one date. I guess what I meant by "unique" is that I explain what I can bring to the table, that is what sets me apart from the countless other guys out there. Thanks for the offer btw, I'll send you a link when I get a chance.
@stuck on an island: What you describe would actually explain quite a bit! It's like I meet girls willing to talk, but not seriously enough to sacrifice the anonymity and remoteness being online gives them. I understand why, but it's still a bit annoying from a guy's perspective...
@Ashley801: Great advice! I've been digging into the OkCupid blog and found the articles really interesting. Age-wise, I prefer mid-20's to early-30's which seems reasonable. Oddly enough, I have better luck with girls my age or younger - I've never had much luck with the 30+ age group. I think the girls I contact are either average or slightly above, but that's just my opinion - looks of course are hard to quantify.
posted by photo guy at 4:59 PM on February 21, 2010
Stop with the back and forth.
Just ask the woman if she'd like to meet, in the flesh, for coffee somewhere. Suggest a date and place.
If she balks, move on to the next one.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Don't think about it so much.
posted by dfriedman at 5:12 PM on February 21, 2010
Just ask the woman if she'd like to meet, in the flesh, for coffee somewhere. Suggest a date and place.
If she balks, move on to the next one.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Don't think about it so much.
posted by dfriedman at 5:12 PM on February 21, 2010
Yeah, this is normal. I've been on a number of dating sites off and on for a number of years, and that about fits my experience.
A word though: unless "fairly large midwestern American city" = "Chicago," you're going to find that the population of just about every dating site is going to be pretty thin. I'm in Fort Wayne, IN, and with a search radius of 50 miles, I get one "match" in excess of 90% who has been online in the last month, and we're out of the 80%+ range on the first page. Do that same search in Chicago, and it's four at 90%+ and 80%+ through page eleven. In Washington, DC, and I get fifteen 90%+ matches and we're 80%+ until page seventeen. Obviously, you're almost certainly going to get different matches than I do, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was true for everyone. There's just not enough people out here.
You may say "But why restrict yourself to 50 miles?" Because, in keeping with what stuck on an island observes, unless things move offline really quickly, online dating goes nowhere most of the time, and if we live more than 50 miles apart, it's just not going to happen.
I hate this damn town...
posted by valkyryn at 5:21 PM on February 21, 2010
A word though: unless "fairly large midwestern American city" = "Chicago," you're going to find that the population of just about every dating site is going to be pretty thin. I'm in Fort Wayne, IN, and with a search radius of 50 miles, I get one "match" in excess of 90% who has been online in the last month, and we're out of the 80%+ range on the first page. Do that same search in Chicago, and it's four at 90%+ and 80%+ through page eleven. In Washington, DC, and I get fifteen 90%+ matches and we're 80%+ until page seventeen. Obviously, you're almost certainly going to get different matches than I do, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was true for everyone. There's just not enough people out here.
You may say "But why restrict yourself to 50 miles?" Because, in keeping with what stuck on an island observes, unless things move offline really quickly, online dating goes nowhere most of the time, and if we live more than 50 miles apart, it's just not going to happen.
I hate this damn town...
posted by valkyryn at 5:21 PM on February 21, 2010
I'm not posting a link to it for obvious reasons, but would be happy to MeFi-mail a link to anyone interested in providing a critique.
Sure, I'll take a look at it. You can send it to me through mefimail or my email address in my profile.
Frankly, the response rate sounds on the low side, though not horrendously low. 3 months (the time spent on OKCupid) is a pretty short period of time. 25 messages is a decent amount, and your results have been disappointed, but it might be bad luck.
It would be interesting to know how you select the women to contact, how rigidly you apply your criteria, etc. (If you meant your heading literally, that would be one example of a rigid criterion!) But on preview, you seem to have covered this in your follow-up.
You recently posted an AskMe question about having been unemployed for a year. If that's still true, that's probably a major negative as a straight man on a dating site -- sorry. Needless to say, getting a job has to take priority over dating; once you do that, you'll be much better positioned in the dating arena.
A few other important factors that are hard for us to really assess:
- Geographic location. A larger population is better, all other things being equal; in addition, some cities are better than others for dating. Oh, on preview, I see you live in a big city, so that's good.
- We're taking your word for it that your online communications and the in-person dates have been fine/normal on the whole. It is possible that you're doing something less-than-ideal here, but I have no idea if that's true. For instance, I assume (since you linked to an earlier AskMe thread about this) your initial messages are not generic/copied-and-pasted but that they say something specific to show you actually read her profile, thought you had stuff in common, and are interested in finding out more about her. Though you said you're not that funny, I wouldn't worry about that too much -- it's more important to be aware of your strengths and weaknesses. It's not necessary to be a comic genius -- few people are.
- Photos can be crucial. I assume, photo guy, that you have a few photos in your profile and that they're reasonably flattering and appropriate.
Full disclosure: I'm also a late-20s male. I use OKCupid regularly; first started using it about 4 years ago. While that might sound like faint praise since I'm still using the site, a significant portion of that time was spent in relationships that resulted from online dating. I've been very happy with the results and have no problem with the fact that it's my main dating source.
posted by Jaltcoh at 5:25 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sure, I'll take a look at it. You can send it to me through mefimail or my email address in my profile.
Frankly, the response rate sounds on the low side, though not horrendously low. 3 months (the time spent on OKCupid) is a pretty short period of time. 25 messages is a decent amount, and your results have been disappointed, but it might be bad luck.
It would be interesting to know how you select the women to contact, how rigidly you apply your criteria, etc. (If you meant your heading literally, that would be one example of a rigid criterion!) But on preview, you seem to have covered this in your follow-up.
You recently posted an AskMe question about having been unemployed for a year. If that's still true, that's probably a major negative as a straight man on a dating site -- sorry. Needless to say, getting a job has to take priority over dating; once you do that, you'll be much better positioned in the dating arena.
A few other important factors that are hard for us to really assess:
- Geographic location. A larger population is better, all other things being equal; in addition, some cities are better than others for dating. Oh, on preview, I see you live in a big city, so that's good.
- We're taking your word for it that your online communications and the in-person dates have been fine/normal on the whole. It is possible that you're doing something less-than-ideal here, but I have no idea if that's true. For instance, I assume (since you linked to an earlier AskMe thread about this) your initial messages are not generic/copied-and-pasted but that they say something specific to show you actually read her profile, thought you had stuff in common, and are interested in finding out more about her. Though you said you're not that funny, I wouldn't worry about that too much -- it's more important to be aware of your strengths and weaknesses. It's not necessary to be a comic genius -- few people are.
- Photos can be crucial. I assume, photo guy, that you have a few photos in your profile and that they're reasonably flattering and appropriate.
Full disclosure: I'm also a late-20s male. I use OKCupid regularly; first started using it about 4 years ago. While that might sound like faint praise since I'm still using the site, a significant portion of that time was spent in relationships that resulted from online dating. I've been very happy with the results and have no problem with the fact that it's my main dating source.
posted by Jaltcoh at 5:25 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
You recently posted an AskMe question about having been unemployed for a year. If that's still true, that's probably a major negative as a straight man on a dating site -- sorry. Needless to say, getting a job has to take priority over dating; once you do that, you'll be much better positioned in the dating arena.
If true, this is the only thing you need to know.
If women in your area are into casual flings and you are too, that's an option, but as for dating a woman...no woman who you'd want to date is going to date a guy who is unemployed.
Unless that unemployed guy has a large trust fund and doesn't have to work.
In which case you wouldn't be on OKCupid...
posted by dfriedman at 5:29 PM on February 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
If true, this is the only thing you need to know.
If women in your area are into casual flings and you are too, that's an option, but as for dating a woman...no woman who you'd want to date is going to date a guy who is unemployed.
Unless that unemployed guy has a large trust fund and doesn't have to work.
In which case you wouldn't be on OKCupid...
posted by dfriedman at 5:29 PM on February 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yes. The secret is volume, frankly. The best 'dating' I did was during the time I was on Match.com's "six month promise" -- they required you to email at least five people a month every month, and that seemed to work pretty well.
Another thing I've noticed is that particular sites tune their match/search things differently. On PlentyofFish, I changed my 'seeking' from "dating" to "long term" and my 'matches' changed in a very positive way for me.
posted by SpecialK at 5:32 PM on February 21, 2010
Another thing I've noticed is that particular sites tune their match/search things differently. On PlentyofFish, I changed my 'seeking' from "dating" to "long term" and my 'matches' changed in a very positive way for me.
posted by SpecialK at 5:32 PM on February 21, 2010
Another thought about the job situation: using OKCupid now could be actively counterproductive if women are going to say, "Oh, I definitely don't want to date a guy who's employed" --> [delete message; hide profile].
If you hold off on contacting them, and get a job in the meantime, some of those same women could still be available. If they've rejected you in the past, they naturally won't be predisposed to give you a chance in the future, since people usually stick with their past decisions. If you haven't contacted them before, you'd have a better chance with them in the future.
posted by Jaltcoh at 5:39 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you hold off on contacting them, and get a job in the meantime, some of those same women could still be available. If they've rejected you in the past, they naturally won't be predisposed to give you a chance in the future, since people usually stick with their past decisions. If you haven't contacted them before, you'd have a better chance with them in the future.
posted by Jaltcoh at 5:39 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Thorough" tipped me off right away. You don't need to take the profile questions literally. If you go and on about "who you are" and "what you're looking for," it's going to turn women off because it seems like you have too much time for this (and that would be borne out when they discovered you're unemployed) and you run the risk of saying things better left unsaid ("I don't want to play games" or "just got out a rough relationship" and other whinings). And delete all the platitudes about "loving to go out but also sometimes staying in," and "being sensitive" and all of that. Say a few things about you that almost no one else could say about themselves (eg, you have a poster of Spiderman that you've had since you were 7). I can see almost no benefit coming from listing what you want in a woman -- listing too much will make you seem controlling, nitpicky, etc. A better way to approach it would be to list things that you look for in friends in general: an interest in current events, a love of Jean-Claude Van Damme movies, etc.
Your photo: It's very obvious when you've taken your own photo, either by holding up the camera in front of your own face or using your webcam. In both cases, I halfway wonder "Doesn't this guy have any friends to take his picture, or go to any events or do anything fun where he can get his picture taken?" And the webcam pictures, especially the ones where you're not looking at the lens, creep me out because of the creepy blue laptop lighting and just a general online-predator vibe. Find a recent (one year) photo of your face and shoulders, smiling, in focus, and close-up enough that your face can be seen (so not one of those ones where you're in sunglasses in front of some mountain 70 feet away from the camera). Don't have a photo where you're with another girl, doesn't matter who, or with a baby or anything like that. At the very least, pretend you're a tourist and ask someone on the street to take a photo of you.
In e-mails and in your profile, no mention of sex or "sensual/sensuality."
As for the non-response rate, I've discussed this a lot with my friends. I've found out that men prefer a "No, thanks" or "Sorry, not interested" response over no response at all. This is SO HARD for women to understand, and then do, because I think we tend toward non-confrontation, not hurting feelings, and would rather take the hint from no response than hear an outright rejection, and it comes as a surprise that men think the opposite. There's a lot of talk about this in places like the OkCupid message boards (yes, I know this is a gender-generalization). So don't take it personally. Many women think they're being kind by not responding when they're not interested.
posted by thebazilist at 6:41 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
Your photo: It's very obvious when you've taken your own photo, either by holding up the camera in front of your own face or using your webcam. In both cases, I halfway wonder "Doesn't this guy have any friends to take his picture, or go to any events or do anything fun where he can get his picture taken?" And the webcam pictures, especially the ones where you're not looking at the lens, creep me out because of the creepy blue laptop lighting and just a general online-predator vibe. Find a recent (one year) photo of your face and shoulders, smiling, in focus, and close-up enough that your face can be seen (so not one of those ones where you're in sunglasses in front of some mountain 70 feet away from the camera). Don't have a photo where you're with another girl, doesn't matter who, or with a baby or anything like that. At the very least, pretend you're a tourist and ask someone on the street to take a photo of you.
In e-mails and in your profile, no mention of sex or "sensual/sensuality."
As for the non-response rate, I've discussed this a lot with my friends. I've found out that men prefer a "No, thanks" or "Sorry, not interested" response over no response at all. This is SO HARD for women to understand, and then do, because I think we tend toward non-confrontation, not hurting feelings, and would rather take the hint from no response than hear an outright rejection, and it comes as a surprise that men think the opposite. There's a lot of talk about this in places like the OkCupid message boards (yes, I know this is a gender-generalization). So don't take it personally. Many women think they're being kind by not responding when they're not interested.
posted by thebazilist at 6:41 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is SO HARD for women to understand, and then do, because I think we tend toward non-confrontation, not hurting feelings
Yes.
This.
Pursue those women who are courageous enough to be forthright.
Ignore the rest.
posted by dfriedman at 7:05 PM on February 21, 2010
Yes.
This.
Pursue those women who are courageous enough to be forthright.
Ignore the rest.
posted by dfriedman at 7:05 PM on February 21, 2010
Response by poster: Okay, I knew someone would bring up my previous thread. I have been doing various temp jobs so I'm not exactly unemployed, just out of Corporate America for the time being. Please keep in mind that my initial break in online dating was when I was laid off last year because, as many of you probably agree, I felt that I should focus on the job search. As the job search dragged on longer and longer, I reached the conclusion that I should no longer put my personal life on hold indefinitely, hence the re-entry into the world of dating. I have seen two girls who say in their profiles they're in similar situations, so I'm certainly not alone!
I am not exactly rich, but thanks to smart investing and frugal living, I still have a fairly sizable amount in savings - so I'm certainly not in any sort of financial distress and can afford to date. In addition, business is picking up - I have multiple job leads and expect to be back to work within a month or two, so I prefer to refer to it as a "temporary break between jobs". Sorry, I just really wanted to explain that situation so people don't think I'm an unemployed bum.
I don't get the "what do you do" question often, although I did bring up my situation with one girl I briefly went out with last winter (we didn't meet through online dating) who had no problem with it! So I guess my point is that I don't think unemployment in this economy is by itself a show-stopper.
posted by photo guy at 7:25 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I am not exactly rich, but thanks to smart investing and frugal living, I still have a fairly sizable amount in savings - so I'm certainly not in any sort of financial distress and can afford to date. In addition, business is picking up - I have multiple job leads and expect to be back to work within a month or two, so I prefer to refer to it as a "temporary break between jobs". Sorry, I just really wanted to explain that situation so people don't think I'm an unemployed bum.
I don't get the "what do you do" question often, although I did bring up my situation with one girl I briefly went out with last winter (we didn't meet through online dating) who had no problem with it! So I guess my point is that I don't think unemployment in this economy is by itself a show-stopper.
posted by photo guy at 7:25 PM on February 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
dfriedman,
So you're saying he should pursue the ones who have the courage to say no to him? I'm thinking that doesn't do much to encourage the practice of writing back...
posted by Salamandrous at 7:25 PM on February 21, 2010
So you're saying he should pursue the ones who have the courage to say no to him? I'm thinking that doesn't do much to encourage the practice of writing back...
posted by Salamandrous at 7:25 PM on February 21, 2010
So you're saying he should pursue the ones who have the courage to say no to him?
No. He should pursue those who have the courage to be direct.
posted by dfriedman at 7:37 PM on February 21, 2010
No. He should pursue those who have the courage to be direct.
posted by dfriedman at 7:37 PM on February 21, 2010
This is SO HARD for women to understand, and then do, because I think we tend toward non-confrontation, not hurting feelings
Yes.
This.
Pursue those women who are courageous enough to be forthright.
Ignore the rest.
FWIW, when I first started online dating, I replied to everyone even if it was to say no thank you. More often than not I'd either get a nasty reply, a scolding for being presumptuous (this was most common), another email wanting to know why or just continue the conversation, or a reply as if the guy didn't read what I had written (usually from the guys who said stuff like "wuts up u r sexy").
It was really the nasty replies that put me off of it. Just another reason why this might be happening other than simple non-confrontational-ness.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:42 PM on February 21, 2010
Yes.
This.
Pursue those women who are courageous enough to be forthright.
Ignore the rest.
FWIW, when I first started online dating, I replied to everyone even if it was to say no thank you. More often than not I'd either get a nasty reply, a scolding for being presumptuous (this was most common), another email wanting to know why or just continue the conversation, or a reply as if the guy didn't read what I had written (usually from the guys who said stuff like "wuts up u r sexy").
It was really the nasty replies that put me off of it. Just another reason why this might be happening other than simple non-confrontational-ness.
posted by Ashley801 at 7:42 PM on February 21, 2010
FWIW, when I first started online dating, I replied to everyone even if it was to say no thank you. More often than not I'd either get a nasty reply, a scolding for being presumptuous (this was most common), another email wanting to know why or just continue the conversation, or a reply as if the guy didn't read what I had written (usually from the guys who said stuff like "wuts up u r sexy").
Ah.
Well, the corollary for the women is that the guys who are insecure enough to respond in a nasty way to an expression of no interest are not worth dating.
posted by dfriedman at 7:54 PM on February 21, 2010
Ah.
Well, the corollary for the women is that the guys who are insecure enough to respond in a nasty way to an expression of no interest are not worth dating.
posted by dfriedman at 7:54 PM on February 21, 2010
So you're saying he should pursue the ones who have the courage to say no to him?
No. He should pursue those who have the courage to be direct.
Well, I had a similar reaction as Salamandrous -- it seems like weird advice to pursue women who have already rejected him.
I don't understand the fixation on women giving men explicit rejections. I'm a man, and I'm on OKCupid, and I'd rather get no response to my message than an explicit rejection. Then there's at least a chance I'll forget about it; what good would an explicit rejection do me? I'm sure plenty of women have ignored my messages, but I can't think of a single time I've gotten a message that said, "Sorry, this isn't going to work out..." And it's sort of a moot point whether we like this state of affairs or not, because this AskMe thread isn't going to change it. People who can't bear to get passively rejected just shouldn't use dating sites. But I don't think this is really what the OP is asking about, so I'm not sure why it even came up.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:02 PM on February 21, 2010
No. He should pursue those who have the courage to be direct.
Well, I had a similar reaction as Salamandrous -- it seems like weird advice to pursue women who have already rejected him.
I don't understand the fixation on women giving men explicit rejections. I'm a man, and I'm on OKCupid, and I'd rather get no response to my message than an explicit rejection. Then there's at least a chance I'll forget about it; what good would an explicit rejection do me? I'm sure plenty of women have ignored my messages, but I can't think of a single time I've gotten a message that said, "Sorry, this isn't going to work out..." And it's sort of a moot point whether we like this state of affairs or not, because this AskMe thread isn't going to change it. People who can't bear to get passively rejected just shouldn't use dating sites. But I don't think this is really what the OP is asking about, so I'm not sure why it even came up.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:02 PM on February 21, 2010
Have you taken advantage of the "rate this person" feature on OKCupid? (Where if you rate them a 4 or 5 it'll ask them to rate you in a lineup and tell you both if you like one another.)
That is always a good way to make sure you're contacting people who are similarly interested in you. And if no one is rating you that, it could be a clue that there's something off-putting about your profile.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 9:01 PM on February 21, 2010
That is always a good way to make sure you're contacting people who are similarly interested in you. And if no one is rating you that, it could be a clue that there's something off-putting about your profile.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 9:01 PM on February 21, 2010
Response by poster: I've used the rating system but never got around to e-mailing the people in question - I know, I know, I've just been busy. Guess I could give it another shot.
Oddly enough, I had one of the aforementioned girls (the cute one) e-mail me back since I posted last :) Not sure is she's interested or not - she's very hard to read and her last few e-mails have been kind of brief. I'm going to try pushing for a "real" meeting - suppose I don't have anything to lose...
posted by photo guy at 9:18 PM on February 21, 2010
Oddly enough, I had one of the aforementioned girls (the cute one) e-mail me back since I posted last :) Not sure is she's interested or not - she's very hard to read and her last few e-mails have been kind of brief. I'm going to try pushing for a "real" meeting - suppose I don't have anything to lose...
posted by photo guy at 9:18 PM on February 21, 2010
Well, if she's e-mailing you at all, she's interested on some level, right? If she wanted to waste time chatting, I guarantee that you aren't the only guy available for her to do so with.
You don't have to "push" for a real meeting. Just ask! It's normal.
And re: answering with a "no thanks" -- it's not necessarily a matter of courage. It's completely counterintuitive. I had no idea that guys would even want a response that I wasn't interested. Then once I knew, it's hard to get myself to do it, but I do. But that's only to guys who I can tell put effort into crafting a "real" message to me. I'd never respond at all to a "wat up sexy baby ur hot" --- that would be like responding "No, but thanks, I'm so flattered!" to cat-callers on the street.
Now, OP, just think of all the girls complaining that guys aren't e-mailing them or asking them out while you're sitting around "busy," "never getting around to e-mailing the people in question." If you think you can just throw up a profile, e-mail a handful of women, half-heartedly suggest meeting in person, and then let the panties fly into your lap, you've got a lot of work ahead of you.
posted by thebazilist at 9:46 PM on February 21, 2010
You don't have to "push" for a real meeting. Just ask! It's normal.
And re: answering with a "no thanks" -- it's not necessarily a matter of courage. It's completely counterintuitive. I had no idea that guys would even want a response that I wasn't interested. Then once I knew, it's hard to get myself to do it, but I do. But that's only to guys who I can tell put effort into crafting a "real" message to me. I'd never respond at all to a "wat up sexy baby ur hot" --- that would be like responding "No, but thanks, I'm so flattered!" to cat-callers on the street.
Now, OP, just think of all the girls complaining that guys aren't e-mailing them or asking them out while you're sitting around "busy," "never getting around to e-mailing the people in question." If you think you can just throw up a profile, e-mail a handful of women, half-heartedly suggest meeting in person, and then let the panties fly into your lap, you've got a lot of work ahead of you.
posted by thebazilist at 9:46 PM on February 21, 2010
nthing keeping the online chatter short and scheduling a date as soon as possible. It's much better to get it over with within a week of initial contact than having your expectations built up beyond reason.
I just actually had this situation occur to me today. I met a girl and we had been chatting almost nonstop for a week and a half. We get together and we have nothing to talk about! You can guess where that went...friends zone~~
A rule I'm setting for myself is to never ask a girl for her AIM/MSN user name, that's the first step in the downward spiral towards friendly doom.
posted by Groovytimes at 11:43 PM on February 21, 2010
I just actually had this situation occur to me today. I met a girl and we had been chatting almost nonstop for a week and a half. We get together and we have nothing to talk about! You can guess where that went...friends zone~~
A rule I'm setting for myself is to never ask a girl for her AIM/MSN user name, that's the first step in the downward spiral towards friendly doom.
posted by Groovytimes at 11:43 PM on February 21, 2010
We get together and we have nothing to talk about! You can guess where that went...friends zone~~
I really don't understand this. At all. If you're compatible with someone, you're going to find something to talk about. If after you chatted for a week you have nothing left to talk about, I really doubt it's because you're in the mystical "friend zone". It's because you do not have chemistry.
posted by lydhre at 8:45 AM on February 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
I really don't understand this. At all. If you're compatible with someone, you're going to find something to talk about. If after you chatted for a week you have nothing left to talk about, I really doubt it's because you're in the mystical "friend zone". It's because you do not have chemistry.
posted by lydhre at 8:45 AM on February 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
This whole "should I reply to people to tell them 'no thanks'?" is a hardy perennial on the OkCupid forums. It's difficult either way. I can't blame women for not wanting to get blasted by jerks just for being polite. On the other hand, it's hard not to hear back-some people do take a while to respond, so you're kind of left hanging.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:33 AM on February 22, 2010
posted by Chrysostom at 10:33 AM on February 22, 2010
Keep your initial emails very short. Include a couple of personalized parts so it doesn't seem like a mass email, be charming and funny, and move on. You can send out dozens of these every week. The email can be short because it's just an attempt to get them to look at your profile and consider you.
If they write back, especially if they ask questions or appear interested, send them one more fleshed-out email and ask if they'd like to meet up for some coffee or something. (Or, depending on the site and your level of comfort, initiate a chat with them and suggest a meet-up if it goes well.) I did this probably a few times a week. Some people will prefer to talk on the phone first, so offer to call and then if the conversation goes well, suggest the meet-up at the end.
Feel free to schedule a brief date with person A on Saturday and person B on Sunday, etc., as most of your brief dates won't lead to second dates anyway.
It might seem cold and calculating to treat it as such a numbers game, but that's just the first step. It's not like you're going to have to propose to whoever agrees to meet you.
posted by callmejay at 10:49 AM on February 22, 2010
If they write back, especially if they ask questions or appear interested, send them one more fleshed-out email and ask if they'd like to meet up for some coffee or something. (Or, depending on the site and your level of comfort, initiate a chat with them and suggest a meet-up if it goes well.) I did this probably a few times a week. Some people will prefer to talk on the phone first, so offer to call and then if the conversation goes well, suggest the meet-up at the end.
Feel free to schedule a brief date with person A on Saturday and person B on Sunday, etc., as most of your brief dates won't lead to second dates anyway.
It might seem cold and calculating to treat it as such a numbers game, but that's just the first step. It's not like you're going to have to propose to whoever agrees to meet you.
posted by callmejay at 10:49 AM on February 22, 2010
You can have nothing to talk about and still have chemistry! That's how you end up in the "friends-with-benefits zone"
I think that's the "benefits without friends" zone.
posted by Salamandrous at 11:49 AM on February 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think that's the "benefits without friends" zone.
posted by Salamandrous at 11:49 AM on February 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow this thread is taking on a life of its own...
Again, thank you all who shared your own experiences! After reading this thread a bit more, I'm thinking what I'm seeing is par for the course. I decided to take a break from the world of online dating for now - I'm hopefully moving in another month or two which obviously throws a wrench into dating. That, and the prep work for leaving has been keeping me busy. I guess I'll tackle this whole online dating thing with a bit more gusto once the dust settles a bit and I know I'll be staying put somewhere for longer than a few months.
posted by photo guy at 5:16 PM on February 22, 2010
Again, thank you all who shared your own experiences! After reading this thread a bit more, I'm thinking what I'm seeing is par for the course. I decided to take a break from the world of online dating for now - I'm hopefully moving in another month or two which obviously throws a wrench into dating. That, and the prep work for leaving has been keeping me busy. I guess I'll tackle this whole online dating thing with a bit more gusto once the dust settles a bit and I know I'll be staying put somewhere for longer than a few months.
posted by photo guy at 5:16 PM on February 22, 2010
Best answer: Does Crazy Blind Date operate in your city? If it does, get your arse on there right now. If someone does flake on you, you've wasted half an hour and so what. If they do show up, you've avoided three weeks of pissing about via email/IM.
I'm not an "online dater" but I tried it out when I was in a foreign city recently and it was great fun and low risk.
posted by m1ndsurfer at 6:24 PM on February 22, 2010
I'm not an "online dater" but I tried it out when I was in a foreign city recently and it was great fun and low risk.
posted by m1ndsurfer at 6:24 PM on February 22, 2010
Response by poster: Crazy Blind Date would be PERFECT for someone like me! Sadly, they don't operate where I'm living right now, but I am moving to one of the cities where they do operate...really glad you brought that site to my attention
posted by photo guy at 6:41 PM on February 22, 2010
posted by photo guy at 6:41 PM on February 22, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by MadamM at 3:52 PM on February 21, 2010