He seems permanently stuck on the fence - what should I do?
February 18, 2010 5:58 PM Subscribe
7 months ago, I started a new job and immediately struck up a friendship with a co-worker of mine who had a girlfriend. I'll call him Derek. From day one, Derek and I realized we had an eerie amount in common. Our conversations were always electric and we never failed to make each other just cackle with laughter. Us having a fantastic time together at work was as far as it ever went, but that was enough. Looking back on it, I have to say that I was oblivious to how important he would become to me. I acknowledged that I was infatuated with him, but as that sometimes happens when you work with attractive people, I expected it to fizzle out in time and then we could get back to being friends. That didn't happen.
I want to emphasize that I greatly value loyalty and am an intensely loyal person myself (I once tried to make a long term relationship with a repeat cheater work because I couldn't stand the thought of being with anyone else). I never dreamed I'd be in such a position - vying for the attention of someone taken. But that's where I found myself. My stomach stayed knotted up for weeks with stress over my divided convictions. I felt guilty about my feelings for him, but, aside from not acting on them, I couldn't do much to change them.
Before they broke up two weeks ago, Derek had been with his girlfriend for two and half years. I don't know her personally and have only met her briefly on two occasions, but none of Derek's friends had warmed to her in the two years they were dating. Here's an example why: On Derek's birthday, he found an event in town that he really wanted to attend. His girlfriend cried because it didn't sound fun to her and she knew he'd go without her. She made him feel horrible about it and he ended up deciding not to go. At the very last second, when it was already too late for him to make plans, she apparently heaved a big sigh and said, "Fine. You can go." Of course that didn't make him feel any better, only made him more frustrated.
Derek's life was full of these kinds of headaches. Battles that he didn't think were worth fighting, for the sake of harmony, so he'd just let her have her way. It seems that whenever he began to set up a boundary for himself, she would fall apart and accuse him of being uncaring or distant. When I met her, she seemed relatively normal, albeit a bit insecure, but I wished no harm to her then and I still don't. It's just that when Derek's friends saw us making a connection, they went nuts trying to get us together. I kept hearing about how manipulative she is, how miserable he was before I came along, etc. I once asked him to describe her and he said, simply, "she's fragile."
I'd be lying if I didn't admit that, through time, with nudges from his friends, I started to feel less guilt about letting myself grow attached to him. (I should mention that we never spent time together away from work and were never physical in any way.) Around Christmas time, we started talking about our feelings for each other and trying to figure out what to do. I guess it's fair to say he was having an emotional affair and I wasn't doing much to discourage it. We did try to dismiss it. We sincerely tried to "just be friends." But working together, in the environment that we do, made it impossible NOT to communicate at least some of the time, and then we both found ourselves looking too forward to the coincidental, oops-we-just-bumped-into-each-other, minute-long conversations in the hallway at work. It became unbearable. I accidentally heard him on the phone with her once, trying to calm her down after she found out he'd just had a brief chat with me. He'd come into work looking exhausted and tell me how she would drill him regarding every tiny detail about me - Did you say anything to her? What did you say? What are you thinking right now? Are you mad at me? Etc.
Still, Derek tried to be upstanding. After all, the girlfriend never did anything blatantly wrong. Even though it hurt, I thought Derek was being rather mature for his 24 years when he told his girlfriend he'd go to counseling with her. I thought a professional might finally be able to shed some light on this situation for all of us. When the counselor felt that he was holding back too much in their joint sessions, she asked to see him alone. He opened up about me and the counselor apparently said, "I think you know what you need to do." Just before they broke up, he told me that he had been terrified that he'd regret leaving her. But he said what terrified him even more was the thought that he'd always regret not getting to know me better. Less than two weeks later, they had split. (Her decision in the end, by the way.)
Since then though, hes been spending a lot of time with both of us. He actively seeks time with me and then on other nights, he agrees to spend time with the ex-girlfriend nearly all she wants (at least it appears so). He says he's single and doesn't want to date anyone, but I can't help but feeling like he is already dating both of us. And that, in turn, makes me feel even more like "the other woman." There's no denying that Derek has nice-guy syndrome. He doesn't want anyone to be hurt. He cares about us both now and he's wearing himself down trying (or not trying?) to make a decision.
What's a self-respecting lady to do when "the right thing" can be interpreted a thousand different ways?
I want to emphasize that I greatly value loyalty and am an intensely loyal person myself (I once tried to make a long term relationship with a repeat cheater work because I couldn't stand the thought of being with anyone else). I never dreamed I'd be in such a position - vying for the attention of someone taken. But that's where I found myself. My stomach stayed knotted up for weeks with stress over my divided convictions. I felt guilty about my feelings for him, but, aside from not acting on them, I couldn't do much to change them.
Before they broke up two weeks ago, Derek had been with his girlfriend for two and half years. I don't know her personally and have only met her briefly on two occasions, but none of Derek's friends had warmed to her in the two years they were dating. Here's an example why: On Derek's birthday, he found an event in town that he really wanted to attend. His girlfriend cried because it didn't sound fun to her and she knew he'd go without her. She made him feel horrible about it and he ended up deciding not to go. At the very last second, when it was already too late for him to make plans, she apparently heaved a big sigh and said, "Fine. You can go." Of course that didn't make him feel any better, only made him more frustrated.
Derek's life was full of these kinds of headaches. Battles that he didn't think were worth fighting, for the sake of harmony, so he'd just let her have her way. It seems that whenever he began to set up a boundary for himself, she would fall apart and accuse him of being uncaring or distant. When I met her, she seemed relatively normal, albeit a bit insecure, but I wished no harm to her then and I still don't. It's just that when Derek's friends saw us making a connection, they went nuts trying to get us together. I kept hearing about how manipulative she is, how miserable he was before I came along, etc. I once asked him to describe her and he said, simply, "she's fragile."
I'd be lying if I didn't admit that, through time, with nudges from his friends, I started to feel less guilt about letting myself grow attached to him. (I should mention that we never spent time together away from work and were never physical in any way.) Around Christmas time, we started talking about our feelings for each other and trying to figure out what to do. I guess it's fair to say he was having an emotional affair and I wasn't doing much to discourage it. We did try to dismiss it. We sincerely tried to "just be friends." But working together, in the environment that we do, made it impossible NOT to communicate at least some of the time, and then we both found ourselves looking too forward to the coincidental, oops-we-just-bumped-into-each-other, minute-long conversations in the hallway at work. It became unbearable. I accidentally heard him on the phone with her once, trying to calm her down after she found out he'd just had a brief chat with me. He'd come into work looking exhausted and tell me how she would drill him regarding every tiny detail about me - Did you say anything to her? What did you say? What are you thinking right now? Are you mad at me? Etc.
Still, Derek tried to be upstanding. After all, the girlfriend never did anything blatantly wrong. Even though it hurt, I thought Derek was being rather mature for his 24 years when he told his girlfriend he'd go to counseling with her. I thought a professional might finally be able to shed some light on this situation for all of us. When the counselor felt that he was holding back too much in their joint sessions, she asked to see him alone. He opened up about me and the counselor apparently said, "I think you know what you need to do." Just before they broke up, he told me that he had been terrified that he'd regret leaving her. But he said what terrified him even more was the thought that he'd always regret not getting to know me better. Less than two weeks later, they had split. (Her decision in the end, by the way.)
Since then though, hes been spending a lot of time with both of us. He actively seeks time with me and then on other nights, he agrees to spend time with the ex-girlfriend nearly all she wants (at least it appears so). He says he's single and doesn't want to date anyone, but I can't help but feeling like he is already dating both of us. And that, in turn, makes me feel even more like "the other woman." There's no denying that Derek has nice-guy syndrome. He doesn't want anyone to be hurt. He cares about us both now and he's wearing himself down trying (or not trying?) to make a decision.
What's a self-respecting lady to do when "the right thing" can be interpreted a thousand different ways?
I think that you're morally in the clear because he's technically single, but that you need to think of yourself and realize that he is not actually single. Does he know that you're interested in him? I know that it's easy for me to say (and very hard to do) but I think the best thing would be to tell him that you really like him, and that he's obviously still got some things to sort out with the ex, and that if he wants to ask you out down the line once he's over that whole situation, you'd like that very much. And then stop hanging out with him outside of work unless and until all of that happens.
posted by moxiedoll at 6:10 PM on February 18, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by moxiedoll at 6:10 PM on February 18, 2010 [5 favorites]
What's a self-respecting lady person to do when "the right thing" can be interpreted a thousand different ways under any circumstances?
Determine what the right thing is for you, assess whether Derek meets your needs, and accept what he has to offer or move on.
posted by headnsouth at 6:12 PM on February 18, 2010
Determine what the right thing is for you, assess whether Derek meets your needs, and accept what he has to offer or move on.
posted by headnsouth at 6:12 PM on February 18, 2010
I think moxiedoll's got it, you need to push him to make a decision, it doesn't seem like he's in any hurry otherwise.
posted by ghharr at 6:16 PM on February 18, 2010
posted by ghharr at 6:16 PM on February 18, 2010
What's a self-respecting lady to do when "the right thing" can be interpreted a thousand different ways?
No disrespect, but this is a high-school quality dilemma. You obviously have feelings for this guy, but your rambling, overly comprehensive question has told us little of real substance between you two. To paraphrase - "Derek is kind of a push over. We like each other. His girlfriend broke up with him. Now he's trying to milk both cows while blaming it on his jellied spine."
Are you really that interested in a guy that milquetoast, or are you just interested in an easily manipulated target? Maybe you skipped some of the more telling details up there, but the whole thing sounds like an untenable mess to me.
Maybe a 'self-respecting lady' would show more self respect and find a person not so otherwise engaged in drama farming.
posted by Pecinpah at 6:18 PM on February 18, 2010 [16 favorites]
No disrespect, but this is a high-school quality dilemma. You obviously have feelings for this guy, but your rambling, overly comprehensive question has told us little of real substance between you two. To paraphrase - "Derek is kind of a push over. We like each other. His girlfriend broke up with him. Now he's trying to milk both cows while blaming it on his jellied spine."
Are you really that interested in a guy that milquetoast, or are you just interested in an easily manipulated target? Maybe you skipped some of the more telling details up there, but the whole thing sounds like an untenable mess to me.
Maybe a 'self-respecting lady' would show more self respect and find a person not so otherwise engaged in drama farming.
posted by Pecinpah at 6:18 PM on February 18, 2010 [16 favorites]
I must say, I think you're really minimizing Derek's culpability in this whole thing. This is a guy who kept his poor girlfriend on tenterhooks for months while slowly and secretly transferring his emotional loyalties elsewhere-- more "spineless" or "self-congratulatory" than "nice guy," as far as I can see.
His current crisis of loyalties is entirely of his own making, and if he's letting himself waffle and agonize, it's because he likes it that way-- whether he enjoys feeling needed by everyone, can't ever bear to see himself as the bad guy, or whatever. It's 100% not your job to fix or decide this for him in any way.
As others have suggested, I'd tell him that this situation is unfair to both you and his ex, and that he can give you a call when he's free to enter wholeheartedly into a new relationship with you.
posted by Bardolph at 6:20 PM on February 18, 2010 [14 favorites]
His current crisis of loyalties is entirely of his own making, and if he's letting himself waffle and agonize, it's because he likes it that way-- whether he enjoys feeling needed by everyone, can't ever bear to see himself as the bad guy, or whatever. It's 100% not your job to fix or decide this for him in any way.
As others have suggested, I'd tell him that this situation is unfair to both you and his ex, and that he can give you a call when he's free to enter wholeheartedly into a new relationship with you.
posted by Bardolph at 6:20 PM on February 18, 2010 [14 favorites]
I want to emphasize that I greatly value loyalty and am an intensely loyal person myself (I once tried to make a long term relationship with a repeat cheater work because I couldn't stand the thought of being with anyone else).
This is insecurity, not loyalty.
It seems that whenever he began to set up a boundary for himself, she would fall apart and accuse him of being uncaring or distant.
Huh. Derek is attracted to insecure women.
If Derek is in a relationship with you, he is not going to change. He is still going to be Mr. Nice Guy. And when another attractive women befriends him, he's going to be Nice to her too. Why not? He already had an emotional affair with you, and you already tolerated a cheater. This is a terrible match.
Lest you think me too judgmental, this was pretty much me at 24 as well.
posted by desjardins at 6:22 PM on February 18, 2010 [42 favorites]
This is insecurity, not loyalty.
It seems that whenever he began to set up a boundary for himself, she would fall apart and accuse him of being uncaring or distant.
Huh. Derek is attracted to insecure women.
If Derek is in a relationship with you, he is not going to change. He is still going to be Mr. Nice Guy. And when another attractive women befriends him, he's going to be Nice to her too. Why not? He already had an emotional affair with you, and you already tolerated a cheater. This is a terrible match.
Lest you think me too judgmental, this was pretty much me at 24 as well.
posted by desjardins at 6:22 PM on February 18, 2010 [42 favorites]
It seems that whenever he began to set up a boundary for himself, she would fall apart and accuse him of being uncaring or distant. When I met her, she seemed relatively normal, albeit a bit insecure, but I wished no harm to her then and I still don't. It's just that when Derek's friends saw us making a connection, they went nuts trying to get us together. I kept hearing about how manipulative she is, how miserable he was before I came along, etc. I once asked him to describe her and he said, simply, "she's fragile."
Because she, with good reason, didn't trust him, and sensed that he had emotionally abandoned her (or perhaps he's done it before, with someone else)?
If you hold onto him, you will soon be the one who is fragile, demanding, and insecure. A year from now, this will be you, and someone new will be offering him solace and comfort:
I accidentally heard him on the phone with her once, trying to calm her down after she found out he'd just had a brief chat with me. He'd come into work looking exhausted and tell me how she would drill him regarding every tiny detail about me - Did you say anything to her? What did you say? What are you thinking right now? Are you mad at me? Etc.
If he doesn't cut ties with the ex right away and begin a relationship with you, walk away. If it starts like this, it won't get better.
posted by jokeefe at 6:30 PM on February 18, 2010 [9 favorites]
Because she, with good reason, didn't trust him, and sensed that he had emotionally abandoned her (or perhaps he's done it before, with someone else)?
If you hold onto him, you will soon be the one who is fragile, demanding, and insecure. A year from now, this will be you, and someone new will be offering him solace and comfort:
I accidentally heard him on the phone with her once, trying to calm her down after she found out he'd just had a brief chat with me. He'd come into work looking exhausted and tell me how she would drill him regarding every tiny detail about me - Did you say anything to her? What did you say? What are you thinking right now? Are you mad at me? Etc.
If he doesn't cut ties with the ex right away and begin a relationship with you, walk away. If it starts like this, it won't get better.
posted by jokeefe at 6:30 PM on February 18, 2010 [9 favorites]
A self-respecting lady gets herself out of a "not just friends but not dating either" pseudo-relationship as soon as she realizes she's in one. To my mind, that means saying, "I want to date you. If you want to date me, awesome. If not, then I need for us to stop hanging out for a while so I can clear my head and find new people to date." If the man in question responds, "I just can't decide," then a self-respecting lady leaves him right there on the fence and goes on her merry way to meet other people who can value and respect her enough to give her a straight answer to this type of question. A man can say he's not interested in a woman respectfully, or can say he has feelings for a woman respectfully, but there is no way to respectfully say, "Can you put your life on hold for a few months--I like you, but I don't know if I want to date you, so I was thinking I'd sort of string you on emotionally for a bit just to test the waters. Is that cool?"
Also, consider whether or not you'd want to be in a relationship in which your boyfriend confides in someone else about your insecurities and the conflicts in the relationship the same way he discussed those things with you when he was with his ex.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:46 PM on February 18, 2010 [18 favorites]
Also, consider whether or not you'd want to be in a relationship in which your boyfriend confides in someone else about your insecurities and the conflicts in the relationship the same way he discussed those things with you when he was with his ex.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:46 PM on February 18, 2010 [18 favorites]
First, this is unusually well-written for an anonymous relationship question. Thanks for making it easy to read!
Second, a guy who badmouths his girlfriend to another woman who's flirting with him isn't nice, he's opportunistic. Likewise, hanging out with a girl who likes you and your ex while committing to neither. If I were you, I'd no longer offer him these opportunities.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:51 PM on February 18, 2010 [7 favorites]
Second, a guy who badmouths his girlfriend to another woman who's flirting with him isn't nice, he's opportunistic. Likewise, hanging out with a girl who likes you and your ex while committing to neither. If I were you, I'd no longer offer him these opportunities.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:51 PM on February 18, 2010 [7 favorites]
IMHO, Derek doesn't have "nice guy syndrome." Derek has have my cake and eat it too syndrome.
He says he's single and doesn't want to date anyone, but I can't help but feeling like he is already dating both of us.
Please save yourself a lot of grief and take him at his word here. I said this in another thread but I think it is appropriate here too: lots of women make this mistake when guys say they don't want a relationship but then act boyfriendy. They think, "well, I know he said he doesn't want to be in a relationship. But he's acting like we're in a relationship. Therefore, his true feelings are that he wants to be in a relationship and he just doesn't know how to do that. And we are in one, or kind of in one, despite what he said."
But you guys aren't in a relationship. And the reason he doesn't want to speak the magic words "we are in a relationship" is because then, in his mind, he would theoretically have certain obligations to you, such as not lying to you, not sleeping with others, taking your feelings into account, treating you with basic human respect, etc.
(I say theoretically because evidently, he doesn't mind lying to or at the very least misleading people he's dating-- what exactly did he say to his gf when she got upset about the time he was spending talking to you. "We are *just friends*" or something like that?)
I know you said he tried to be upstanding, but frankly he doesn't sound upstanding to me whatsoever either in the way he acted when he was in a relationship or the way he's treating both of you now.
Infatuations don't last forever. You will feel this way again with someone else. My vote: DTMFA and find someone who isn't taken and doesn't play these weird games.
posted by Ashley801 at 6:52 PM on February 18, 2010 [16 favorites]
He says he's single and doesn't want to date anyone, but I can't help but feeling like he is already dating both of us.
Please save yourself a lot of grief and take him at his word here. I said this in another thread but I think it is appropriate here too: lots of women make this mistake when guys say they don't want a relationship but then act boyfriendy. They think, "well, I know he said he doesn't want to be in a relationship. But he's acting like we're in a relationship. Therefore, his true feelings are that he wants to be in a relationship and he just doesn't know how to do that. And we are in one, or kind of in one, despite what he said."
But you guys aren't in a relationship. And the reason he doesn't want to speak the magic words "we are in a relationship" is because then, in his mind, he would theoretically have certain obligations to you, such as not lying to you, not sleeping with others, taking your feelings into account, treating you with basic human respect, etc.
(I say theoretically because evidently, he doesn't mind lying to or at the very least misleading people he's dating-- what exactly did he say to his gf when she got upset about the time he was spending talking to you. "We are *just friends*" or something like that?)
I know you said he tried to be upstanding, but frankly he doesn't sound upstanding to me whatsoever either in the way he acted when he was in a relationship or the way he's treating both of you now.
Infatuations don't last forever. You will feel this way again with someone else. My vote: DTMFA and find someone who isn't taken and doesn't play these weird games.
posted by Ashley801 at 6:52 PM on February 18, 2010 [16 favorites]
Agreed, and further, seeing that you work together, you should be thinking of finding another job, if necessary.
posted by jokeefe at 6:52 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by jokeefe at 6:52 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
And I can't second this comment enough, particularly this: If you hold onto him, you will soon be the one who is fragile, demanding, and insecure. A year from now, this will be you, and someone new will be offering him solace and comfort. I assure you that he will be painting you as the needy psycho to the next girl too.
posted by Ashley801 at 6:56 PM on February 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by Ashley801 at 6:56 PM on February 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
DEREK IS TREATING YOU LIKE SHIT AND I WISH YOU COULD SEE THAT.
I was you. I was you.
Part of their dynamic (lots of drama between them, btw, please take note of that for later on in this discussion...) relies on having an audience. You are the current audience.
Yes, you and he spark each other. And if he was worthy of you, he would have dumped her long ago - because their relationship sucks anyway - and he would have started dating you.
He didn't do this. Did he?
When this happened to me, the ex-gf moved to the other side of the country. I dated him for 2 years after that. Oops! Turns out they were still considering themselves "in-love." They eventually married and continue to involve other affairs (both emotional and physical) in their relationship. She, too, was "fragile."
That line about not wanting to hurt her? Classic fucking cheating-guy-speak. Don't you believe it. Not for one minute!
You're right. You are "the other woman." And you won't be last one Derek has in this lifetime, whether he breaks up with this girl or gets back together with her.
You see, it's the dynamic and the drama he's addicted to. There is something fundamentally wrong with the way he views intimate relationships. You will never find happiness with this man because he will never put you first. He's already demonstrated this to you over and over again. His allegiances lie elsewhere.
You are welcome to memail me. I am so sorry to have to deliver this news. I can go further. I can tell you so much about this situation you're involved in, about things that have happened - you will think I'm a mind-reader! I am not.
I'm just someone who's felt the highs, the confusion, the heartbreak and the pain you are going through right now.
I think getting a grip on your self-respect will help diffuse the "spark" you feel for this guy. Once you re-frame his actions from a perspective that puts your best interests at the forefront, his drama won't seem all that compelling.
I promise.
posted by jbenben at 7:11 PM on February 18, 2010 [13 favorites]
I was you. I was you.
Part of their dynamic (lots of drama between them, btw, please take note of that for later on in this discussion...) relies on having an audience. You are the current audience.
Yes, you and he spark each other. And if he was worthy of you, he would have dumped her long ago - because their relationship sucks anyway - and he would have started dating you.
He didn't do this. Did he?
When this happened to me, the ex-gf moved to the other side of the country. I dated him for 2 years after that. Oops! Turns out they were still considering themselves "in-love." They eventually married and continue to involve other affairs (both emotional and physical) in their relationship. She, too, was "fragile."
That line about not wanting to hurt her? Classic fucking cheating-guy-speak. Don't you believe it. Not for one minute!
You're right. You are "the other woman." And you won't be last one Derek has in this lifetime, whether he breaks up with this girl or gets back together with her.
You see, it's the dynamic and the drama he's addicted to. There is something fundamentally wrong with the way he views intimate relationships. You will never find happiness with this man because he will never put you first. He's already demonstrated this to you over and over again. His allegiances lie elsewhere.
You are welcome to memail me. I am so sorry to have to deliver this news. I can go further. I can tell you so much about this situation you're involved in, about things that have happened - you will think I'm a mind-reader! I am not.
I'm just someone who's felt the highs, the confusion, the heartbreak and the pain you are going through right now.
I think getting a grip on your self-respect will help diffuse the "spark" you feel for this guy. Once you re-frame his actions from a perspective that puts your best interests at the forefront, his drama won't seem all that compelling.
I promise.
posted by jbenben at 7:11 PM on February 18, 2010 [13 favorites]
I don't know Derek's ex-girlfriend any better than you do, but I suspect she might be getting an unfair deal here. Notably, in the part where she's an irredeemable nightmare and Derek is an exhausted, harried soul constantly trying to soothe her troubles at the expense of his own self-respect.
It seems that whenever he began to set up a boundary for himself, she would fall apart and accuse him of being uncaring or distant.
If part of this insecure behaviour includes questioning him about his obviously growing emotional connection to you - a woman even his friends are trying to set him up with, for heaven's sake - and he's then complaining about that to you, she may well have a point.
There's no denying that Derek has nice-guy syndrome. He doesn't want anyone to be hurt. He cares about us both now and he's wearing himself down trying (or not trying?) to make a decision.
He's not wearing himself down. This behaviour, in which his life is something that happens to him, trouble is something he goes along with, and decisions are something other people make, is a behaviour that's clearly working for him in some way. Bear in mind that however much Derek cares about both of you, he also cares very much about Derek. Before you get any further involved with him, I'd strongly recommend looking at the situation (current and past) from an angle in which you assume he's actively making decisions - even if those decisions are to sit back passively and let events unfold around him - and see what it looks like then.
I doubt he's the devil, and quite possibly all he needs is someone to tell him explicitly to get off the damn fence or you're gone. (Which you should do, btw.) But lots of us have met versions of this guy in various different guises, and your potential future here holds a lot of potential pain. Tread carefully.
posted by Catseye at 7:13 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
It seems that whenever he began to set up a boundary for himself, she would fall apart and accuse him of being uncaring or distant.
If part of this insecure behaviour includes questioning him about his obviously growing emotional connection to you - a woman even his friends are trying to set him up with, for heaven's sake - and he's then complaining about that to you, she may well have a point.
There's no denying that Derek has nice-guy syndrome. He doesn't want anyone to be hurt. He cares about us both now and he's wearing himself down trying (or not trying?) to make a decision.
He's not wearing himself down. This behaviour, in which his life is something that happens to him, trouble is something he goes along with, and decisions are something other people make, is a behaviour that's clearly working for him in some way. Bear in mind that however much Derek cares about both of you, he also cares very much about Derek. Before you get any further involved with him, I'd strongly recommend looking at the situation (current and past) from an angle in which you assume he's actively making decisions - even if those decisions are to sit back passively and let events unfold around him - and see what it looks like then.
I doubt he's the devil, and quite possibly all he needs is someone to tell him explicitly to get off the damn fence or you're gone. (Which you should do, btw.) But lots of us have met versions of this guy in various different guises, and your potential future here holds a lot of potential pain. Tread carefully.
posted by Catseye at 7:13 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
There's an old cliche line that you might hear in old movies: it's called "My wife doesn't understand me." For example, "We were working late because he said he wanted to go through some old archives, and all of a sudden his wife doesn't understand him."
Woe is he, the poor thing, with his harpy of a wife. But you, you understand him, you two are like soul mates. His awful wife, she doesn't deserve a sensitive man like him. You can give him the solace that he so desperately needs. Why should you two feel guilty for trying to reach for a scrap of happiness in this cruel world?
This is the line that you got. Please understand that it's a line, meaning you are not the first and you won't be the last. Your situation with him is not special or unique. He was bored with his current girlfriend, and hooked you with this line. We know for sure that he's dishonest. We don't know for sure, but can guess, whether he'll get bored with you, too.
posted by thebazilist at 7:21 PM on February 18, 2010 [7 favorites]
Woe is he, the poor thing, with his harpy of a wife. But you, you understand him, you two are like soul mates. His awful wife, she doesn't deserve a sensitive man like him. You can give him the solace that he so desperately needs. Why should you two feel guilty for trying to reach for a scrap of happiness in this cruel world?
This is the line that you got. Please understand that it's a line, meaning you are not the first and you won't be the last. Your situation with him is not special or unique. He was bored with his current girlfriend, and hooked you with this line. We know for sure that he's dishonest. We don't know for sure, but can guess, whether he'll get bored with you, too.
posted by thebazilist at 7:21 PM on February 18, 2010 [7 favorites]
Nthing that Derek is having his cake and eating it too, and that if his girlfriend were really that horrible, he would've broken up with her long ago and dated you instead. I don't think he's *necessarily* someone you should avoid (though he may be), but I do think what he's doing now is unfair. Follow moxiedoll's advice.
posted by whitelily at 7:23 PM on February 18, 2010
posted by whitelily at 7:23 PM on February 18, 2010
p.s.: One great thing I learned on MeFi was to believe things people tell you about themselves.
He says he's single and doesn't want to date anyone
That's not to say he'll *never* want to date anyone, but he doesn't now. Tell him to call you up if this changes.
posted by whitelily at 7:27 PM on February 18, 2010
He says he's single and doesn't want to date anyone
That's not to say he'll *never* want to date anyone, but he doesn't now. Tell him to call you up if this changes.
posted by whitelily at 7:27 PM on February 18, 2010
Listen, Derek is one of two guys. Guy A is uncomfortable with conflict, doesn't want to be the bad guy, and is avoiding making it clear to one or both of you what it is exactly that he wants. Guy B is a manipulative parasite who is soaking up the attention he is getting from two women. Guy B cannot be trusted to be honest with you, and he will betray you if given the opportunity, because he is comfortable rewriting the narrative of his life to make himself the nice guy no matter how cruelly he strings people along. To figure out which guy he is, you need to tell him that you're interested in being in a relationship with him, but not as long as there is this ongoing ambiguous situation with the ex. He has to choose one of you. Guy A is a little spineless but can improve over time. Guy A will probably choose you (or choose to stay single). Guy B will do everything to avoid having to choose because he wants to maximize his power and the ego-feeding attention he's getting. Run, don't walk, from guy B.
posted by prefpara at 7:32 PM on February 18, 2010 [9 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 7:32 PM on February 18, 2010 [9 favorites]
Sorry to pipe back in here but uhh, wow. Fellow MeFites - please read the ask carefully before commenting. Cheers.
- Yes Derek knows OP is interested in him. They've talked about their attraction often.
- Derek is currently dating the OP and the girlfriend (I refuse to call her an ex!) on alternate nights. He might be calling it something else, but that is exactly what he's doing, as per the OP.
------
There is no grey area here. Somehow, Derek has convinced the OP to put his needs, and that of his girlfriend's, before the OP's.
OP. Re-frame the situation from your needs, your best interests.
Do you see the difference? Can you see how this situation is about drama? How it is serving them but not you??
-----
Best.
posted by jbenben at 7:37 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
- Yes Derek knows OP is interested in him. They've talked about their attraction often.
- Derek is currently dating the OP and the girlfriend (I refuse to call her an ex!) on alternate nights. He might be calling it something else, but that is exactly what he's doing, as per the OP.
------
There is no grey area here. Somehow, Derek has convinced the OP to put his needs, and that of his girlfriend's, before the OP's.
OP. Re-frame the situation from your needs, your best interests.
Do you see the difference? Can you see how this situation is about drama? How it is serving them but not you??
-----
Best.
posted by jbenben at 7:37 PM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ugh, kind of in a similar situation right now. The only way I've been able to deal with it is try as damn hard as possible to go back to "just friends" -- which is damn near impossible when you know there's attraction, but you have to try as much as you can -- and be a hardass about it, and tell him to let you know when he's made up his mind.
All the "if only" and the "in a different situation" and "I like you but..." in the world won't keep you from going insane as he tries to manage two "girlfriends." Back off, for your own good, and prepare yourself however you need to to be the one he doesn't pick. Be ready to take time away from him to get yourself together and get over it enough to move on. And then if it works out your way eventually, then life is good... and you hope this situation doesn't repeat itself, only with you in the (ex?)girlfriend's position this time.
This is one situation where you don't want to let him have the milk without buying the cow. Good luck. These situations suck.
posted by olinerd at 7:50 PM on February 18, 2010
All the "if only" and the "in a different situation" and "I like you but..." in the world won't keep you from going insane as he tries to manage two "girlfriends." Back off, for your own good, and prepare yourself however you need to to be the one he doesn't pick. Be ready to take time away from him to get yourself together and get over it enough to move on. And then if it works out your way eventually, then life is good... and you hope this situation doesn't repeat itself, only with you in the (ex?)girlfriend's position this time.
This is one situation where you don't want to let him have the milk without buying the cow. Good luck. These situations suck.
posted by olinerd at 7:50 PM on February 18, 2010
As a former 'Derek,' the comments from Meg_Murry and prefpara (man, I hope I'm an A) ring the most true to me. Make your needs known, then let him figure out the rest himself. He absolutely can not have it both ways - trying to keep everyone happy is exactly the way to fail at it.
posted by Gilbert at 8:41 PM on February 18, 2010
posted by Gilbert at 8:41 PM on February 18, 2010
PhoBWanKenobi has it:
Second, a guy who badmouths his girlfriend to another woman who's flirting with him isn't nice, he's opportunistic.
It's one thing to flirt with someone at work, but once you start bad-mouthing the current b/gf to the object of your attraction, you've crossed a very shady line into manipulation and self-justification.
posted by benzenedream at 9:23 PM on February 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
Second, a guy who badmouths his girlfriend to another woman who's flirting with him isn't nice, he's opportunistic.
It's one thing to flirt with someone at work, but once you start bad-mouthing the current b/gf to the object of your attraction, you've crossed a very shady line into manipulation and self-justification.
posted by benzenedream at 9:23 PM on February 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
Yeah, just so you've got the chorus here: guys who bad mouth their partners to their colleague with the 'spark' are dirty love rats. You sound like you've reveled in his complaints about her and egged him on.
That's uncool and narcissistic behaviour - you think you are better than her right? But consider this: you already listen in on his phone conversations and bitch about his personal life with his friends already. [Jeez, what a LOT of detail you covered in your chats! How was that ever appropriate?] Talk about 'boundary crossing'!
I believe potential mates show you very clearly who they are when you meet them. Does his behaviour really look 'loyal' to you? Is it respectful? Are you loyal, mature, respectful of others' boundaries?
posted by honey-barbara at 12:39 AM on February 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
That's uncool and narcissistic behaviour - you think you are better than her right? But consider this: you already listen in on his phone conversations and bitch about his personal life with his friends already. [Jeez, what a LOT of detail you covered in your chats! How was that ever appropriate?] Talk about 'boundary crossing'!
I believe potential mates show you very clearly who they are when you meet them. Does his behaviour really look 'loyal' to you? Is it respectful? Are you loyal, mature, respectful of others' boundaries?
posted by honey-barbara at 12:39 AM on February 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
Something similar happened to me once when I was much younger. It turned out that the guy was just using me to get attention that helped him build up enough self-esteem to leave his girlfriend. He had no intention of seriously dating me but did continue to lead me on for some months after he left her. I believe he led her on as well. Then he started dating someone else entirely and cut us both off.
I don't know that the same thing will happen to you but the fact that he's left her and isn't with you does suggest to me that it's going in that direction. I'd tell him to contact you once he's made up his mind and then immediately stop enabling him to have his cake and eat it, too.
I also feel really bad for his girlfriend in this situation as he took a really insecure and troubled woman and gave her exactly what she most feared. I wouldn't call him a nice guy, myself, but that's not really your question.
posted by hazyjane at 12:42 AM on February 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't know that the same thing will happen to you but the fact that he's left her and isn't with you does suggest to me that it's going in that direction. I'd tell him to contact you once he's made up his mind and then immediately stop enabling him to have his cake and eat it, too.
I also feel really bad for his girlfriend in this situation as he took a really insecure and troubled woman and gave her exactly what she most feared. I wouldn't call him a nice guy, myself, but that's not really your question.
posted by hazyjane at 12:42 AM on February 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
My now-husband had a "casual" girlfriend when we met (his definition of casual being that they weren't committed or in love, nor did either of them having any expectations of such.)
We had been friends online and were starting to develop feelings for each other, but when push came to shove he didn't want to break things off with her because he knew it would hurt her feelings. He hemmed and hawed over making the decision for a week or so, and finally I told him it was fine if he didn't want to break up with her but if that wasn't going to happen I'd need to pull back a little to let my feelings cool off and get on with my own life. I made it clear that I was interested but also that I wasn't going to sit home alone waiting for him to decide what he wanted.
He broke up with her the next day, we became official soon after and we'll have been married for 10 years come this summer. YMMV
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 1:50 AM on February 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
We had been friends online and were starting to develop feelings for each other, but when push came to shove he didn't want to break things off with her because he knew it would hurt her feelings. He hemmed and hawed over making the decision for a week or so, and finally I told him it was fine if he didn't want to break up with her but if that wasn't going to happen I'd need to pull back a little to let my feelings cool off and get on with my own life. I made it clear that I was interested but also that I wasn't going to sit home alone waiting for him to decide what he wanted.
He broke up with her the next day, we became official soon after and we'll have been married for 10 years come this summer. YMMV
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 1:50 AM on February 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
anonymous: “What's a self-respecting lady to do when "the right thing" can be interpreted a thousand different ways?”
I think that the amount of sexual and moral liberation we've experienced in the last few decades - ostensibly a very good thing - has sort of scrambled our brains where morality and relationships are concerned.
You have no moral compunction to consider her feelings. Hell, neither does he. This is life we're talking about. Feelings don't matter. If she's incredibly, deeply hurt - it will last a few months. And she'll live. And then you will have to live whatever choices you've made. Feelings don't really enter into it at all.
The moral issue is: do you think you belong with him? It actually doesn't matter who he's dating at any given moment if you think you should be with him. If he was still dating her the situation would be the same. So you have to answer the question: do you think you ought to be with him? Do you think that would be good for him and for you?
He clearly does not understand any of this. That's unfortunate, but it doesn't change what needs to be done.
I think you should avoid him. I think you should give him every opportunity to date his ex-girlfriend if he wants it. Try not to spend any time with him - stay away from him at work, don't talk to him about his days, don't tell him what's been going on in your life, and when you pass him in the hall, say 'hi' nicely and keep on walking. Avoid any real confrontations about this for as long as you possibly can - hopefully for at least a week or so. If he tries to stop you and have a little chat with a 'hey, wait a minute - what's going on?' (not that he sounds like the type) put it off with 'I've got some stuff to do, can we talk later?' or 'oh geez, I'm late - gotta run!'
He needs an impetus to action. He has an extraordinary problem that you need to face: he has been in a relationship with a 'fragile' girl, and it's a real rut for him. The trouble is that if you confront him and say 'I need to know where you stand!' he'll very likely 'cave in' in some way; he'll sheepishly admit that he's going back to the first girl, or he'll sheepishly admit that he wants to date you, but either way he'll sheepishly admit something, and whatever he does will be to please you. See the trouble? He could very well move into this relationship in the same way he moved into the last one: by trying to please you, and putting off his own feelings as much as possible until they find outlet elsewhere.
You need to shock him into forming a new paradigm, and you need to keep him on his toes as far as how it's going to go with you. Over time, as you're avoiding him, what you want is for him to corner you. When he manages to really corner you and ask what the hell is going on, tell him straight: 'it's seemed like you have a lot of tough stuff to sort out with your girlfriend - er, sorry, I mean your ex-girlfriend - and I don't want to get in the way of all that. So I won't.' And don't. Continue to steer clear of him and his deal.
This will be torture, I know. You will want to talk to him. You will want to spend time with him. That's how it is when you feel this way. You'll want to share stuff about your day at work with him, and you'll want to see how he's doing. Don't. Stay as far away as possible.
When he asks you out, that means he's ready to take action. But you can't really go anywhere in a relationship with him until then, so you're going to have to tough it out, I think, and stay as far away from him as possible. If that seems manipulative, well, it is. That's how love is sometimes.
posted by koeselitz at 1:58 AM on February 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think that the amount of sexual and moral liberation we've experienced in the last few decades - ostensibly a very good thing - has sort of scrambled our brains where morality and relationships are concerned.
You have no moral compunction to consider her feelings. Hell, neither does he. This is life we're talking about. Feelings don't matter. If she's incredibly, deeply hurt - it will last a few months. And she'll live. And then you will have to live whatever choices you've made. Feelings don't really enter into it at all.
The moral issue is: do you think you belong with him? It actually doesn't matter who he's dating at any given moment if you think you should be with him. If he was still dating her the situation would be the same. So you have to answer the question: do you think you ought to be with him? Do you think that would be good for him and for you?
He clearly does not understand any of this. That's unfortunate, but it doesn't change what needs to be done.
I think you should avoid him. I think you should give him every opportunity to date his ex-girlfriend if he wants it. Try not to spend any time with him - stay away from him at work, don't talk to him about his days, don't tell him what's been going on in your life, and when you pass him in the hall, say 'hi' nicely and keep on walking. Avoid any real confrontations about this for as long as you possibly can - hopefully for at least a week or so. If he tries to stop you and have a little chat with a 'hey, wait a minute - what's going on?' (not that he sounds like the type) put it off with 'I've got some stuff to do, can we talk later?' or 'oh geez, I'm late - gotta run!'
He needs an impetus to action. He has an extraordinary problem that you need to face: he has been in a relationship with a 'fragile' girl, and it's a real rut for him. The trouble is that if you confront him and say 'I need to know where you stand!' he'll very likely 'cave in' in some way; he'll sheepishly admit that he's going back to the first girl, or he'll sheepishly admit that he wants to date you, but either way he'll sheepishly admit something, and whatever he does will be to please you. See the trouble? He could very well move into this relationship in the same way he moved into the last one: by trying to please you, and putting off his own feelings as much as possible until they find outlet elsewhere.
You need to shock him into forming a new paradigm, and you need to keep him on his toes as far as how it's going to go with you. Over time, as you're avoiding him, what you want is for him to corner you. When he manages to really corner you and ask what the hell is going on, tell him straight: 'it's seemed like you have a lot of tough stuff to sort out with your girlfriend - er, sorry, I mean your ex-girlfriend - and I don't want to get in the way of all that. So I won't.' And don't. Continue to steer clear of him and his deal.
This will be torture, I know. You will want to talk to him. You will want to spend time with him. That's how it is when you feel this way. You'll want to share stuff about your day at work with him, and you'll want to see how he's doing. Don't. Stay as far away as possible.
When he asks you out, that means he's ready to take action. But you can't really go anywhere in a relationship with him until then, so you're going to have to tough it out, I think, and stay as far away from him as possible. If that seems manipulative, well, it is. That's how love is sometimes.
posted by koeselitz at 1:58 AM on February 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think the "he's a horrible manipulative bastard who's having it both ways!!!" people need to lighten up. Yeah, he's acting selfishly, but, you know, that's how most people are. He's being wishy-washy, sure. But so what? Everyone has some flaws.
What's the worst that could happen here? You get your heart broken at some point, you have to deal with an ex at work, etc. Well, that's life. Those things happen, and they're not the end of the world.
You enjoy spending time with this guy. So keep doing it. He's single, so he's not cheating at this point. If he starts acting jerky to you, break up with him. Until then, enjoy life. No one is going to be perfect.
posted by delmoi at 3:05 AM on February 19, 2010
What's the worst that could happen here? You get your heart broken at some point, you have to deal with an ex at work, etc. Well, that's life. Those things happen, and they're not the end of the world.
You enjoy spending time with this guy. So keep doing it. He's single, so he's not cheating at this point. If he starts acting jerky to you, break up with him. Until then, enjoy life. No one is going to be perfect.
posted by delmoi at 3:05 AM on February 19, 2010
I really wish I understood why so many of the girls I've known are attracted to schmucks like this.
You say you're self-respecting. I don't think a self-respecting lady would waste her time pining for a guy she obviously doesn't respect. It's clear that you want him, but I can't see any reason to believe that you respect him, which makes sense, given his seemingly complete lack of any ability to make his own decisions for reasons he considers to be compelling. Everything he's done in your little story has been at the behest of someone else. While I can understand how that can be superficially attractive--everyone likes to be catered to on some level--this isn't actually something you're going to want once you actually have it.
Why? Nothing the you say reveals Derek doing anything 1) remotely classy, or 2) remotely self-motivated. "Harmony" is not the same thing as "letting someone have their way." That's just not dealing with it. "Harmony" means talking through things until, through some combination of compromise and spine, you're both okay. That's hard, and can be scary, but simply giving other people what they want is no substitute for the real work of mature relationship. What both you and his girlfriend (you're the other woman here, plain and simple) really want is for Derek to grow a pair of balls, man up, make a damned choice, and stick with it. The only other possibility I see working out for you is for you to do that yourself by walking away. If Derek won't do the adult thing, it looks like you'll have to.
Most people--the mature ones anyways--get to a point in their lives where they realize that "spark" isn't everything, and that feeling a "spark" with someone does not actually mean that you both need to drop everything to be with that person. It doesn't even mean that you're remotely good for each other over the long term. Maybe it's time for you to internalize some of that. There are other fish in the sea, and the fact that you're attracted to this guy is not really of any broader significance.
posted by valkyryn at 5:48 AM on February 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
You say you're self-respecting. I don't think a self-respecting lady would waste her time pining for a guy she obviously doesn't respect. It's clear that you want him, but I can't see any reason to believe that you respect him, which makes sense, given his seemingly complete lack of any ability to make his own decisions for reasons he considers to be compelling. Everything he's done in your little story has been at the behest of someone else. While I can understand how that can be superficially attractive--everyone likes to be catered to on some level--this isn't actually something you're going to want once you actually have it.
Why? Nothing the you say reveals Derek doing anything 1) remotely classy, or 2) remotely self-motivated. "Harmony" is not the same thing as "letting someone have their way." That's just not dealing with it. "Harmony" means talking through things until, through some combination of compromise and spine, you're both okay. That's hard, and can be scary, but simply giving other people what they want is no substitute for the real work of mature relationship. What both you and his girlfriend (you're the other woman here, plain and simple) really want is for Derek to grow a pair of balls, man up, make a damned choice, and stick with it. The only other possibility I see working out for you is for you to do that yourself by walking away. If Derek won't do the adult thing, it looks like you'll have to.
Most people--the mature ones anyways--get to a point in their lives where they realize that "spark" isn't everything, and that feeling a "spark" with someone does not actually mean that you both need to drop everything to be with that person. It doesn't even mean that you're remotely good for each other over the long term. Maybe it's time for you to internalize some of that. There are other fish in the sea, and the fact that you're attracted to this guy is not really of any broader significance.
posted by valkyryn at 5:48 AM on February 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
Most people--the mature ones anyways--get to a point in their lives where they realize that "spark" isn't everything, and that feeling a "spark" with someone does not actually mean that you both need to drop everything to be with that person. It doesn't even mean that you're remotely good for each other over the long term.
God, is this true. I've been you. I met someone I had incredible chemistry with, and I thought it was so special and unique, and I would never find it anywhere else, and suddenly I was making excuses for his hurtful behavior and damaging my self esteem and self respect on a regular basis because I couldn't stand the thought of being with anyone else.
So, as I was clinging to this "spark" thing, I was drowning in a sea of red flags. Everyone else could see it, and I kept thinking "they don't know what it's like between us...we have a 'special connection.'" NO. No. No we did not. The day I finally stood up for myself and put and end to it....I can't even begin to tell you how good it feels now.
Here's what you do: Print out all these answers. Read them every day if you have to. Keep reminding yourself of what they say, when he calls, wants to meet up, whatever. Don't ever let them leave your thoughts.
posted by unassuminglocalgirl at 6:17 AM on February 19, 2010 [10 favorites]
God, is this true. I've been you. I met someone I had incredible chemistry with, and I thought it was so special and unique, and I would never find it anywhere else, and suddenly I was making excuses for his hurtful behavior and damaging my self esteem and self respect on a regular basis because I couldn't stand the thought of being with anyone else.
So, as I was clinging to this "spark" thing, I was drowning in a sea of red flags. Everyone else could see it, and I kept thinking "they don't know what it's like between us...we have a 'special connection.'" NO. No. No we did not. The day I finally stood up for myself and put and end to it....I can't even begin to tell you how good it feels now.
Here's what you do: Print out all these answers. Read them every day if you have to. Keep reminding yourself of what they say, when he calls, wants to meet up, whatever. Don't ever let them leave your thoughts.
posted by unassuminglocalgirl at 6:17 AM on February 19, 2010 [10 favorites]
Derek sounds exactly like my partner. Before he and I got together, he was in a relationship with a girl who he and everyone else knew was bad news. She was insecure and "fragile" in exactly the way that Derek's "ex" is. When my now-partner would hang out with me (platonically), she would badger him about every detail. His friends had been urging him to break up with her for months, but he delayed it as he didn't want to "hurt her feelings." It seemed like every other week for two months he would break up with her only to have her spend the following weekend at his house. (They were semi-long distance.) And yet, he spent an increasing amount of time with me - enough that it felt like he was "leading me on" in a way.
What changed this situation was me flat-out telling him (via e-mail) "Look, I'm interested in you, but I'm not going to do anything until you're actually TOTALLY broken up with your girlfriend."
Two days later, he was completely broken up with her and started "seeing me." (If by "seeing me," you mean hanging out and sleeping together - I've never been one for "dates.")
So, I'm going to read this charitably and say that it sounds like Derek is the same type of guy. He, himself, is conflicted and feels like he is trying to "do the right thing" and not hurt anyone's feelings - not realizing that in order to actually move on, feelings are going to get hurt. Be as direct as possible with him about your feelings - he might honestly not realize where you're coming from - and see where it goes from there.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 7:11 AM on February 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
What changed this situation was me flat-out telling him (via e-mail) "Look, I'm interested in you, but I'm not going to do anything until you're actually TOTALLY broken up with your girlfriend."
Two days later, he was completely broken up with her and started "seeing me." (If by "seeing me," you mean hanging out and sleeping together - I've never been one for "dates.")
So, I'm going to read this charitably and say that it sounds like Derek is the same type of guy. He, himself, is conflicted and feels like he is trying to "do the right thing" and not hurt anyone's feelings - not realizing that in order to actually move on, feelings are going to get hurt. Be as direct as possible with him about your feelings - he might honestly not realize where you're coming from - and see where it goes from there.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 7:11 AM on February 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Eh, here is what is going on. He would like to have a brief fling with you and then go back to his former girlfriend. That's all it is.
posted by unSane at 11:04 AM on February 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by unSane at 11:04 AM on February 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
First thing, two weeks isn't very long. Second thing, nobody is going to be able to deduce his motives from your entirely unreliable perspective. What seem like the most probable scenarios are one, he wanted out of the relationship with her and is glad she finally pulled the cord but either wants a breather having just gotten out of a LTR or is concerned about hurting her by moving too fast with you or maybe he's such wimpo that he's still not willing to make the first real move and is waiting for you to take the initiative. Or maybe he remains genuinely ambivalent about her and is essentially dating you both, trying to figure out whether to try it again with her or get it on with you. Quit asking people who don't have the answer when you know perfectly well the only person who does.
posted by nanojath at 11:13 AM on February 19, 2010
posted by nanojath at 11:13 AM on February 19, 2010
Derek's a people-pleaser. He doesn't want to see you upset, so he will continue to tell you what he thinks he wants you to hear because he doesn't want to lose you. He doesn't want to take the chance of losing his ex because "what if she IS the right person for me despite all evidence to the contrary I'm so afraid to be alone?"
It's a pet theory of mine that we're all convinced that we will never meet anyone new. Our current social circle is what we're stuck with, and the worst person you know will always be the worst, and the same with the best. You think "I'll never meet someone with that same spark and connection that ___ & I have!"
But you do. A new person comes along, and sometimes they're fun, sometimes they're a drag, sometimes they're The Best Thing, and you wonder how you could be so foolish to think that person X was The Best Thing.
My point? Derek will continue to try to keep you close but at arm's length. Maybe you guys will date, but 2 weeks after a 2.5 year relationship is no time at all, so I'd wait it out unless you want to be an official rebound with the subsequent "Gahhh I just need space!" breakup. In the meantime, keep meeting people. Eventually you'll meet a new Best Thing, possibly one who's willing to be as close to you as you are to him.
posted by Turkey Glue at 11:55 AM on February 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
It's a pet theory of mine that we're all convinced that we will never meet anyone new. Our current social circle is what we're stuck with, and the worst person you know will always be the worst, and the same with the best. You think "I'll never meet someone with that same spark and connection that ___ & I have!"
But you do. A new person comes along, and sometimes they're fun, sometimes they're a drag, sometimes they're The Best Thing, and you wonder how you could be so foolish to think that person X was The Best Thing.
My point? Derek will continue to try to keep you close but at arm's length. Maybe you guys will date, but 2 weeks after a 2.5 year relationship is no time at all, so I'd wait it out unless you want to be an official rebound with the subsequent "Gahhh I just need space!" breakup. In the meantime, keep meeting people. Eventually you'll meet a new Best Thing, possibly one who's willing to be as close to you as you are to him.
posted by Turkey Glue at 11:55 AM on February 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
(I say all this as a 25 year-old recovering people-pleaser who has done plenty of similar, and worse, things over time. It's hard work to try to make everyone like you!)
posted by Turkey Glue at 11:57 AM on February 19, 2010
posted by Turkey Glue at 11:57 AM on February 19, 2010
What Pecinpah said, and add to that the perhaps graphic saying, "don't stick your pen in company ink". I'd yourselves time and space, if nothing else, to consider whether one of you could find alternate employment before starting something up. I say this because most relationships fail so on the good chances this one would, it could save you both a lot of hassle. Plus, it's just good for a relationship not to be in each others' faces all the time - you need your separate life, and that can include your work life.
Note also that it really, really sounds like you're over-romanticizing this guy. There's not much substance over "no one liked his ex and we have a really passionate relationship that everyone can see for what it is and they like seeing him like that so everyone's pushing for us to be together." So, to counter the over-romanticism:
In every apparently shitty relationship there's two people contributing to it. Consider why that girl might have, over the course of two years, amounted to someone so insecure and clingy. Maybe he went for the wrong kind of girl for him and he's changing that now. Or maybe there's something about him that is soul-crushing and that wore her down over time. Do you know if it's one of those two, something entirely different, etc.? Basically, there's no way you can know everything about this guy right now despite how great you two might feel around each other. This also from someone with a parallel life experience to unassuminglocalgirl.
posted by lorrer at 12:08 PM on February 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Note also that it really, really sounds like you're over-romanticizing this guy. There's not much substance over "no one liked his ex and we have a really passionate relationship that everyone can see for what it is and they like seeing him like that so everyone's pushing for us to be together." So, to counter the over-romanticism:
In every apparently shitty relationship there's two people contributing to it. Consider why that girl might have, over the course of two years, amounted to someone so insecure and clingy. Maybe he went for the wrong kind of girl for him and he's changing that now. Or maybe there's something about him that is soul-crushing and that wore her down over time. Do you know if it's one of those two, something entirely different, etc.? Basically, there's no way you can know everything about this guy right now despite how great you two might feel around each other. This also from someone with a parallel life experience to unassuminglocalgirl.
posted by lorrer at 12:08 PM on February 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just want to say one more thing--
From you: I accidentally heard him on the phone with her once, trying to calm her down after she found out he'd just had a brief chat with me.
From desjardins: If Derek is in a relationship with you, he is not going to change. He is still going to be Mr. Nice Guy. And when another attractive women befriends him, he's going to be Nice to her too.
I think it's likely that if you stay with him and that next girl comes along that he is Nice to, you may find yourself biting your tongue and forcing yourself to overlook, explain away, be in denial of, or simply tolerate shadier and shadier behavior, out of a desire not to be tarred with the same brush as The Psycho Fragile Ex.
He may even encourage this, saying things like "you're actually jealous over that? Wow, that's something I'd expect Psycho Fragile Ex to say, but not you" or something subtler but along the same lines.
posted by Ashley801 at 12:26 PM on February 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
From you: I accidentally heard him on the phone with her once, trying to calm her down after she found out he'd just had a brief chat with me.
From desjardins: If Derek is in a relationship with you, he is not going to change. He is still going to be Mr. Nice Guy. And when another attractive women befriends him, he's going to be Nice to her too.
I think it's likely that if you stay with him and that next girl comes along that he is Nice to, you may find yourself biting your tongue and forcing yourself to overlook, explain away, be in denial of, or simply tolerate shadier and shadier behavior, out of a desire not to be tarred with the same brush as The Psycho Fragile Ex.
He may even encourage this, saying things like "you're actually jealous over that? Wow, that's something I'd expect Psycho Fragile Ex to say, but not you" or something subtler but along the same lines.
posted by Ashley801 at 12:26 PM on February 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
In sumation - put your damn foot down. Let him know that if he continues to date his girlfriend you will not see him anymore, and if he wants to see you he will need to break up with his girlfriend.
posted by WeekendJen at 12:44 PM on February 19, 2010
posted by WeekendJen at 12:44 PM on February 19, 2010
Here's what I'd say to Derek if I could (and what you should probably do, following WeekendJen's advice): "shit, or get off the pot." i.e. he has to be clear that he wants to go out with you, and goes out with you, or he doesn't go out with you. Empress Dork and grapefruitmoon provide good examples of this where it worked out in their favour.
posted by foxjacket at 4:58 PM on February 20, 2010
posted by foxjacket at 4:58 PM on February 20, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by MsKim at 6:09 PM on February 18, 2010 [20 favorites]