Job prospects for high school Latin teacher
February 17, 2010 9:09 PM Subscribe
What are job prospects like for a Latin teacher at the secondary school level with an M.A.T. (Master of Arts in Teaching) in Latin?
Response by poster: ged, could I ask you to elaborate a bit? What qualifications do your friends have and what kinds of jobs have they tried to look for? (The "classicist" label suggests Ph.D. to me, so I just want to confirm that they weren't looking for university positions, which I know are extremely difficult to get.)
posted by Cucurbit at 9:39 PM on February 17, 2010
posted by Cucurbit at 9:39 PM on February 17, 2010
Of the friends I have who have Ph.D.s, half of them have University positions at the age of 35 or so. Of those, one has a job that could, maybe, possibly, lead to a tenured position in the future. Possibly.
Of the friends I have that have a Masters in Latin or Greek, none of them are still in the field, and they've moved on to other things because their job prospects were so depressing.
These are smart people with graduate degrees from Ivy-League institutions.
posted by ged at 9:48 PM on February 17, 2010
Of the friends I have that have a Masters in Latin or Greek, none of them are still in the field, and they've moved on to other things because their job prospects were so depressing.
These are smart people with graduate degrees from Ivy-League institutions.
posted by ged at 9:48 PM on February 17, 2010
Many school districts are not hiring any teachers at all due to budget cuts, like in the city I live in, which is one of the top 20 in terms of population. Additionally, Latin is offered at very few secondary schools any more. (I've spoken at perhaps fifty schools in five different states and I always ask which foreign languages they offer. None, so far, has offered Latin or Greek.)
Reported statistics vary as to how many public schools in America even offer Latin - the figure I've heard is around 3%, and typically, enrollment isn't very high. A higher percentage of private - especially Catholic - schools offer at least a year or two, but again . . . it's not a popular class, and many schools have cut back. In Australia and the UK, reported figures range from 5% to 10%, but apparently many of the schools which "offer" it do so only online.
I too, have a number of friends who've received advanced degrees in Latin (and other ancient languages.) Aside from one who's managed to score a university job, none of them have been able to do anything with these qualifications in their professional lives, and most of them have - unsuccessfully - looked into teaching.
So in general, I'd have to say thejob prospects are very minimal.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 9:58 PM on February 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Reported statistics vary as to how many public schools in America even offer Latin - the figure I've heard is around 3%, and typically, enrollment isn't very high. A higher percentage of private - especially Catholic - schools offer at least a year or two, but again . . . it's not a popular class, and many schools have cut back. In Australia and the UK, reported figures range from 5% to 10%, but apparently many of the schools which "offer" it do so only online.
I too, have a number of friends who've received advanced degrees in Latin (and other ancient languages.) Aside from one who's managed to score a university job, none of them have been able to do anything with these qualifications in their professional lives, and most of them have - unsuccessfully - looked into teaching.
So in general, I'd have to say thejob prospects are very minimal.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 9:58 PM on February 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: ged and Dee Xtrovert, thanks for your answers! Not trying to hold onto any illusions here, but some important information is missing for me about your friends with grad degrees in Latin/classics/whatever: (1) Were they certified to teach in public schools in their states, or did they only look for jobs in private schools? (2) Did any have the M.A.T. in Latin as opposed to the M.A. or the Ph.D. in Latin/classics/whatever? (It could be that there's no substantial difference in terms of job prospects, but -- I don't know -- there could be a difference.)
Re: the small number of schools Latin is offered at, that's not necessarily worrisome if the number of qualified teachers on the job market is appropriate to the demand. I have no idea whether it is, and both of you have said you think there's an oversupply, but that fact on its own isn't so intimidating. A trend toward the elimination of Latin from the few schools where it remains, on the other hand, would intimidate me.
posted by Cucurbit at 10:37 PM on February 17, 2010
Re: the small number of schools Latin is offered at, that's not necessarily worrisome if the number of qualified teachers on the job market is appropriate to the demand. I have no idea whether it is, and both of you have said you think there's an oversupply, but that fact on its own isn't so intimidating. A trend toward the elimination of Latin from the few schools where it remains, on the other hand, would intimidate me.
posted by Cucurbit at 10:37 PM on February 17, 2010
Independent schools, I would think, are your best bet. A school I taught at had 2 latin teachers and latin was taught from 6th grade up to AP.
posted by sundri at 12:55 AM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by sundri at 12:55 AM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
None of the people I know were rejected because they did or didn't have teaching certification or a certain level of education in Latin. There just weren't jobs, at least not where they lived.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 2:20 AM on February 18, 2010
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 2:20 AM on February 18, 2010
Definitely look at independent schools. The one I went to required Latin from 6th to 7th grade, and a fair number of students continued it through the AP level. There were several (at least 4) Latin teachers on staff.
posted by oinopaponton at 4:57 AM on February 18, 2010
posted by oinopaponton at 4:57 AM on February 18, 2010
The problem is the lack of jobs. Latin isn't being taught very much these days, and there are far more that are qualified to teach Latin than jobs.
If you're a Latin rockstar then you're going to find a job and be just fine, but if you're just one of thousands then you're in for a shock.
Are you qualified to teach anything else? That makes a huge difference.
This, by the way, is the problem with any number of liberal arts degrees. If you're expecting to work in your field then you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening.
Another data point: the few people I know that have gotten jobs as high school Latin teachers actually have Ph.D.s, not M.A.T. or M.A. degrees.
posted by ged at 5:49 AM on February 18, 2010
If you're a Latin rockstar then you're going to find a job and be just fine, but if you're just one of thousands then you're in for a shock.
Are you qualified to teach anything else? That makes a huge difference.
This, by the way, is the problem with any number of liberal arts degrees. If you're expecting to work in your field then you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening.
Another data point: the few people I know that have gotten jobs as high school Latin teachers actually have Ph.D.s, not M.A.T. or M.A. degrees.
posted by ged at 5:49 AM on February 18, 2010
(IAAHSLT, BADNYHSLT: I am a high school Latin teacher, but almost definitely not your high school Latin teacher.)
First: Have you followed job listings at the ACL's site? That should give you a good idea of what's out there. Not every job makes it to the ACL's listings, but most do. This early in the year (and with the economy being how it is), there's *very* little.
Second: I assume with an MAT, you will have state certification. While it is still possible to do alternate routes, and so on, it's *much* harder to find a public school job these days (thanks to NCLB) without certification. Although you do not need certification for independent (private) schools, it's pretty much essential in public schools. If you've got (a transferable) certification, and you're not tied to a particular area, job prospects are probably still pretty good. Lots of Latin jobs *do* go unfilled due to a lack of suitable candidates. However, if you're tied to a particular place, that gets very tricky, because then the lack of jobs is the more important factor.
One of the good MAT programs (UMass-Amherst, e.g.) will produce a credential that's mostly as good as an MA/PhD in classics. OTOH, a subject area degree from a great school -- one with name recognition to the people doing the hiriring -- is just as good or better (WITH CERTIFICATION).
Note: private schools generally pay a pittance. If money doesn't matter to you, then they're great to teach in, all those perks of motivated students, etc. But the pay is generally *awful*. And some people have ethical issues with them.
But in general, yes, there are certainly still jobs teaching high/middle school Latin. There's always lots of encouraging stories about programs doing really well. On the other hand, the economy is *bad* right now, and a lot of public schools are eliminating programs, including by attrition, and world language in general is often seen (unfortunately so) as a 'frill' that can be eliminated, like music, or art, or what have you. Things will (I hope) be better in a few years, but it's often difficult to get back programs once eliminated.
There's a lot of charter schools and other kinds of innovative schools toying with Latin programs, if you're interested in that sort of thing, too, as well as traditional public/independent school models. You can see that easily from the ACL's listings.
posted by lysimache at 6:41 AM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
First: Have you followed job listings at the ACL's site? That should give you a good idea of what's out there. Not every job makes it to the ACL's listings, but most do. This early in the year (and with the economy being how it is), there's *very* little.
Second: I assume with an MAT, you will have state certification. While it is still possible to do alternate routes, and so on, it's *much* harder to find a public school job these days (thanks to NCLB) without certification. Although you do not need certification for independent (private) schools, it's pretty much essential in public schools. If you've got (a transferable) certification, and you're not tied to a particular area, job prospects are probably still pretty good. Lots of Latin jobs *do* go unfilled due to a lack of suitable candidates. However, if you're tied to a particular place, that gets very tricky, because then the lack of jobs is the more important factor.
One of the good MAT programs (UMass-Amherst, e.g.) will produce a credential that's mostly as good as an MA/PhD in classics. OTOH, a subject area degree from a great school -- one with name recognition to the people doing the hiriring -- is just as good or better (WITH CERTIFICATION).
Note: private schools generally pay a pittance. If money doesn't matter to you, then they're great to teach in, all those perks of motivated students, etc. But the pay is generally *awful*. And some people have ethical issues with them.
But in general, yes, there are certainly still jobs teaching high/middle school Latin. There's always lots of encouraging stories about programs doing really well. On the other hand, the economy is *bad* right now, and a lot of public schools are eliminating programs, including by attrition, and world language in general is often seen (unfortunately so) as a 'frill' that can be eliminated, like music, or art, or what have you. Things will (I hope) be better in a few years, but it's often difficult to get back programs once eliminated.
There's a lot of charter schools and other kinds of innovative schools toying with Latin programs, if you're interested in that sort of thing, too, as well as traditional public/independent school models. You can see that easily from the ACL's listings.
posted by lysimache at 6:41 AM on February 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Central-states anecdote: Latin is one of the few secondary-ed fields that has been growing in my region. Every person over the last five years who has taken a Latin BA or MAT, with certification, from our program has had a good public school position (often multiple offers) waiting when they finish. This year, sadly, may be different, but the demand is in place, and hopefully the jobs will still be there when school funding rebounds.
[Local parents are actually suggesting that the school board cut funding to sports (!!!) rather than to academics in order to deal with the budget crisis. This is a small sign of hope in the barbaric hinterlands...]
posted by philokalia at 8:04 AM on February 18, 2010
[Local parents are actually suggesting that the school board cut funding to sports (!!!) rather than to academics in order to deal with the budget crisis. This is a small sign of hope in the barbaric hinterlands...]
posted by philokalia at 8:04 AM on February 18, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks for all the helpful answers!
In particular, lysimache, that was awesome! Really, really helpful answer; thanks very much.
And philokalia, that's very useful to know as well -- thank you!
Since it seems like you two have some experience with this, can you offer any thoughts on what the best M.A.T. programs are? (Though, lysimache, I'll keep in mind what you've said that an M.A./Ph.D. with certification is potentially better.)
posted by Cucurbit at 10:47 AM on February 18, 2010
In particular, lysimache, that was awesome! Really, really helpful answer; thanks very much.
And philokalia, that's very useful to know as well -- thank you!
Since it seems like you two have some experience with this, can you offer any thoughts on what the best M.A.T. programs are? (Though, lysimache, I'll keep in mind what you've said that an M.A./Ph.D. with certification is potentially better.)
posted by Cucurbit at 10:47 AM on February 18, 2010
It depends a bit on what sort of a school you want to end up at. High-end private schools will be be more impressed by a degree from a nationally-known university. But I get the impression that this is much more of a regional game than a national one. Public schools, where the principal more than likely trained at a state School of Ed., will look a bit askance at a new teacher coming in with a "fancy" degree, and instead prefer people with more local connections, who have done student teaching or subbing in-state. Again, the ACL is a good starting place: on their placement service page, they list a contact person for each state who will know what you'll need to get hired there, and I'm sure would be happy to advise you on the best way to prepare.
In terms of MAT programs themselves, for your own sanity choose one that is heavier on subject matter and lighter on Educational Theory. More Latin and art and archaeology, less pop-psych and -sociology, is the way to a happy life.
Be careful if you're considering a PhD. A private school will be delighted to to list Dr Cucurbit among their faculty, but public systems, not so much. Union contracts often stipulate salary ranges for people based on their degrees, and a cash-strapped district (aren't they all?) is going to choose the cheaper teacher over the more expensive one every time.
posted by philokalia at 5:20 AM on February 19, 2010
In terms of MAT programs themselves, for your own sanity choose one that is heavier on subject matter and lighter on Educational Theory. More Latin and art and archaeology, less pop-psych and -sociology, is the way to a happy life.
Be careful if you're considering a PhD. A private school will be delighted to to list Dr Cucurbit among their faculty, but public systems, not so much. Union contracts often stipulate salary ranges for people based on their degrees, and a cash-strapped district (aren't they all?) is going to choose the cheaper teacher over the more expensive one every time.
posted by philokalia at 5:20 AM on February 19, 2010
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posted by ged at 9:28 PM on February 17, 2010 [1 favorite]