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February 9, 2010 6:34 AM Subscribe
Does anyone know how to make good espresso with an Alex Duetto II espresso machine? I'm lost.
My boss just purchased a $2500 espresso machine and a Mazza Mini grinder to go with it - both commercial grade, high quality machines - and for the life of us we cannot seem to get anything out of it other than shots of espresso that alternate between undrinkably bitter and sour. We've adjusted the grind, the dose, the temperature, the brew time and the tamping pressure and we still can't get something palatable. We're using Counter Culture Toscano Espresso beans purchased weekly so that's not the issue either.
I suspect that we're doing something horribly wrong, but I'm not sure what. The brew boiler PID is set to 200 and we're using a grind that's fine enough that when you tamp it medium-hard it takes about 6-8 seconds for anything to come out. Obviously, grinds are hard to describe in words.
Does anyone have experience with this machine? Does anyone live in New York City and want to flex your coffee geek skills? My boss and I are trying to justify this purchase to the CEO and it would help if the damn thing could make coffee! I could really use any advice or help you can offer.
My boss just purchased a $2500 espresso machine and a Mazza Mini grinder to go with it - both commercial grade, high quality machines - and for the life of us we cannot seem to get anything out of it other than shots of espresso that alternate between undrinkably bitter and sour. We've adjusted the grind, the dose, the temperature, the brew time and the tamping pressure and we still can't get something palatable. We're using Counter Culture Toscano Espresso beans purchased weekly so that's not the issue either.
I suspect that we're doing something horribly wrong, but I'm not sure what. The brew boiler PID is set to 200 and we're using a grind that's fine enough that when you tamp it medium-hard it takes about 6-8 seconds for anything to come out. Obviously, grinds are hard to describe in words.
Does anyone have experience with this machine? Does anyone live in New York City and want to flex your coffee geek skills? My boss and I are trying to justify this purchase to the CEO and it would help if the damn thing could make coffee! I could really use any advice or help you can offer.
Here's a video from Intelligentsia that goes through pulling a good shot.
Also, for that kind of money, the dealer who sold you the machine should be willing to come to your office and test it, to make sure everything is ok machine-wise and teach you how to pull.
posted by beepbeepboopboop at 8:31 AM on February 9, 2010
Also, for that kind of money, the dealer who sold you the machine should be willing to come to your office and test it, to make sure everything is ok machine-wise and teach you how to pull.
posted by beepbeepboopboop at 8:31 AM on February 9, 2010
If I was in NYC, I'd be right over...
Perhaps 200 is little cool. Try bumping it up a notch and testing again at each step. Brew temp can have a big impact on shot taste.
Also, you should be timing the total pull time (once pump kicks on until it stops) vs. volume delivered. From memory and YMMV, but it should be around 23 seconds for 2oz (the espresso golden rule). This can be affected by grind and tamp pressure. Hopefully the machine is already set to auto-stop around 2oz for a double. Theoretically a trained barista tamps at 30# of pressure, so if shot timing is off you'd change the grind to move shot timing one way or another.
posted by turbodog at 9:39 AM on February 9, 2010
Perhaps 200 is little cool. Try bumping it up a notch and testing again at each step. Brew temp can have a big impact on shot taste.
Also, you should be timing the total pull time (once pump kicks on until it stops) vs. volume delivered. From memory and YMMV, but it should be around 23 seconds for 2oz (the espresso golden rule). This can be affected by grind and tamp pressure. Hopefully the machine is already set to auto-stop around 2oz for a double. Theoretically a trained barista tamps at 30# of pressure, so if shot timing is off you'd change the grind to move shot timing one way or another.
posted by turbodog at 9:39 AM on February 9, 2010
I looked up the beans you're using and this is what they recommend:
Water Temp: 198 deg.
Dose: 19.5 g
Shot volume: 1.5-1.75
Shot time: 26 seconds
Shots were pulled on our Durham Training Center La Marzocco FB80 using LM double basket.
In general, when I've pulled the shot for too long, it tastes bitter. Are your time/volume parameters near what's listed above? Sour shots are usually because my beans are assy. Not sure if either of those things are happening in your case.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 11:00 AM on February 9, 2010
Water Temp: 198 deg.
Dose: 19.5 g
Shot volume: 1.5-1.75
Shot time: 26 seconds
Shots were pulled on our Durham Training Center La Marzocco FB80 using LM double basket.
In general, when I've pulled the shot for too long, it tastes bitter. Are your time/volume parameters near what's listed above? Sour shots are usually because my beans are assy. Not sure if either of those things are happening in your case.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 11:00 AM on February 9, 2010
Er, shot volume is in ounces.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 11:00 AM on February 9, 2010
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 11:00 AM on February 9, 2010
Sour shots are usually because my beans are assy
Assuming the beans are fresh, sour would indicate too low of a temp. Bitter would indicate too high.
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-diagnose-extraction-problems.html
Also, the Counter Culture numbers look like they're for ristretto pulling and not regular doubles. That would explain a longer shot time and smaller shot volume.
posted by turbodog at 11:47 AM on February 9, 2010
Assuming the beans are fresh, sour would indicate too low of a temp. Bitter would indicate too high.
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-diagnose-extraction-problems.html
Also, the Counter Culture numbers look like they're for ristretto pulling and not regular doubles. That would explain a longer shot time and smaller shot volume.
posted by turbodog at 11:47 AM on February 9, 2010
Some excellent advice here. While I'm not familiar with that espresso machine, I do have extensive experience with Counter Culture's Toscano espresso blend and recall it being quite forgiving. At our shop we were pulling ristrettos at ~202 degrees, so do try bumping up the temp. Also, you didn't mention if you're weighing your grounds before dosing, but that might help you get the right amount. It really helped me when I was training to get a feel for the precise amount of grounds. So, try:
1. Adjusting the brewer temp
2. Dosing the recommended amount (19.5g)
3. Using a scale (a plain old bathroom scale will do--not digital) to calibrate your tamp to 30 lbs of pressure, and make sure to tamp evenly--I like using the Staub method.
Perhaps even before all this, why not call up Counter Culture and get their advice? They are a great crew; I'm sure they'd be more than happy to help you troubleshoot. Please report back when you resolve the issue--I'm quite interested know to what worked for you!
posted by eiramazile at 9:52 AM on February 15, 2010
1. Adjusting the brewer temp
2. Dosing the recommended amount (19.5g)
3. Using a scale (a plain old bathroom scale will do--not digital) to calibrate your tamp to 30 lbs of pressure, and make sure to tamp evenly--I like using the Staub method.
Perhaps even before all this, why not call up Counter Culture and get their advice? They are a great crew; I'm sure they'd be more than happy to help you troubleshoot. Please report back when you resolve the issue--I'm quite interested know to what worked for you!
posted by eiramazile at 9:52 AM on February 15, 2010
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Try reading the basics:
http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Baristas-Handbook-Preparing-Espresso/dp/1605300985/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265731783&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Espresso-Coffee-Professional-David-Schomer/dp/1594040311/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1
Or, take some training classes from Intelligentsia, the mafia of espresso (I kid): http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/store/product/id/2052
posted by mallow005 at 8:12 AM on February 9, 2010