Are there any natural things I can do to have "pleasant dreams" rather than nightmares?

January 27, 2005 9:29 AM

For the past few weeks I've had nightmares that involve demons (not the little guys that have red pitchforks and make you do the wrong thing...but very eerie spooky ones). This is freaking me the hell out because I can't sleep and when I do sleep I have nightmares!

So before I go to a counselor to tell me that I'm a looney toon, is there any natural things I can do to have "pleasant dreams?"
posted by Hands of Manos to health & fitness (47 comments total)

One thing that I would immediately suggest is looking at the temperature of your room or bed when you sleep. Try sleeping in a colder environment (sometimes by just a few degrees). I find that if I am too hot while I sleep, I tend to have freakier and stranger nightmares. By turning the temperature down and/or changing my blanket, I can usually get rid of the dreams.
posted by xorowo at 9:32 AM on January 27, 2005

I'm not a big believer in that little demons and ghosts sit around and lurk in dark corners but when I wake up my imagination goes bezerk and for the rest of the day I'm looking over my shoulder.

While I do subscribe to being a religious person, I keep that in check. I'm certainly not the type that goes around thinking God and the Devil made me do it (or that they send leagues of angels/demons to screw with me).

And I don't do drugs or any weird meds (well, Yerbamate and melatonin at times). I drink Red Wine and try to eat very healthy (and I exercise 4 times a week). So I can't see that I'm doing anything to alter my mind. But this is really pissing me off because it's happening more frequently than not.
posted by Hands of Manos at 9:33 AM on January 27, 2005

Similar question answered here.
posted by orange swan at 9:33 AM on January 27, 2005

The solution above, I should point out, did not address the two years of anxiety nightmares that I had. Those didn't go away until I dealt with the source of the anxiety, which is a long story for another time. I am assuming here that there is nothing particularly different in your life the last few weeks that would be prompting this kind of thing.
posted by xorowo at 9:33 AM on January 27, 2005

xorowo - really? Hmm...I did change the temperature of the electric blanket up a lot last night (I get really cold at night). I will DEFINITELY try that tonight. If I have to sleep on a block of ice, I will
posted by Hands of Manos at 9:34 AM on January 27, 2005

I'm not trying to micromanage my own post, but actually yeah I do have some honest anxiety.

here it goes:

No sarcasm/political agenda/partisanship here but I'm fucking terrified what Bush is going to do to this country, global warming and what happens if I die.

These things sit on my mind a bunch.
posted by Hands of Manos at 9:38 AM on January 27, 2005 [1 favorite]

I occasionally use melatonin for insomnia. I also have a slight anxiety disorder and have had incredibly graphic nightmares my whole life. I generally find that melatonin, while it helps me sleep, escalates my dreams to new heights of violence and depravity, which can leave me feeling more drained than I do after a night of simple wakefulness. I'd examine the impact of melatonin on your dreams and consider cutting it out entirely for a while at least.
posted by katie at 9:45 AM on January 27, 2005

You might try taking a couple of valerian capsules before going to bed. I find it really takes the edge off anxiety and helps me sleep much better. But they smell absolutely, unbelievably foul.

By the way, I sometimes get crazy, vivid dreams after taking melatonin. You might want to avoid it until your sleep returns to normal (on preview, what katie said).
posted by nixxon at 9:47 AM on January 27, 2005

Are these concerns new? Or particularly amplified in the last two weeks? Are you around people that are generally pessimistic about the things that are worrying you? There are a thousand possibilities that could lead to nightmares, so you need some kind of plan. I would suggest the following:

1) Monitor your physical condition -- temperature, amount of sleep, alcohol/drugs before sleep, food you eat, etc. The key here is to not worry too much about this stuff, or it may manifest itself in other types of worries. Just try to eat at least three hours before bed and be sure that the temperature is comfortable, but cool.

2) Deal with the stressers in your life. When it is as generalized as Bush, global warming, etc, it may be difficult to directly deal with them, but you can be sure to talk to people about this stuff. Don't just post on places like MetaFilter (which is great, but sometimes can be its own sinkhole of pessism with regards to these things), but seek out discussions with people who are concerned, yet have a generally positive outlook.

My anxiety dreams and nightmares stemmed from my last two quarters at college. I was working two jobs and had very little time for school. I ended up with several incompletes because I didn't write papers for the classes (although I aced the tests). This caused me to delay getting my degree, take additional classes, and other hassles. The year or two between these events and finally getting back to finish my degree was filled with nightmares on almost a nightly basis. My problem wasn't specifically that I had "failed". It was that I hadn't discussed it with anyone, including my wife. They knew I still had classes to take, but I wasn't completely honest about why I still had classes. One night I woke up covered in sweat and decided that I had had enough of it. I woke up my wife (we had been married a few months) and told her everything. I haven't had any of those dreams since. I have had the occasional nightmare, but nothing like what I dealt with back then.

I don't know if this helps, but I figured that a concrete example of mental stressers causing nightmares might be of assistance. I still say look at your bed temperature, but consider these other things as well.
posted by xorowo at 9:51 AM on January 27, 2005

HoM - I think you might be really stressed / anxious. Try laying off the caffeine / alcohol / etc. for a few hours before bedtime. Try and get in bed at a reasonable time that will let you get 8-9 hours sleep. Don't do anything in bed besides sleep / sex. I.e. no reading, no video games, nothing.

If you find that a few nights in a row of enough restful sleep isn't relaxing you then you might want to look into talking to a counselor. Being able to go and talk to someone that has to listen to you and who has no connection to other people in your social arena can be very therapeutic, even if all they do is listen.
posted by bshort at 9:53 AM on January 27, 2005

These things sit on my mind a bunch.

If you know there's something on your mind that you're anxious about, and you can't change the thing, you might want to look into at least trying to do something about the thing during the bedtime hours. So, you can't stop global warming yourself, but you might want to write a letter, look into getting a car with better mileage, joining an environmental group, whatever. Sometimes feeling like you're doing something is part of the solution, at leats it helps for me. Also, no obsessive news surfing right before bed, or before bed at all if you can help it. Read a book about something completely different and help your mind be filled with other things to think about and obsess over. Also, alcohol has some dream-deadening properties. Unfortunately, it also has crappy-sleeping properties, but if you just need to hit the pillow for eight hours, upping your wine intake a glass or two might be helpful.
posted by jessamyn at 9:54 AM on January 27, 2005

A month ago I had zombie apocalypse nightmares for about a week straight. They went away on their own, but I remember thinking "maybe I should AskMeFi about this." Good suggestions, everyone.
posted by ruddhist at 9:54 AM on January 27, 2005

During a particularly stressful time in my life I had dreams about pure evil tainting everything and everyone I knew. The dreams stopped after my life improved.

Now when I have a terrifying dream I can usually trace it back to eating a late-night snack of Cocoa Krispies or following the news too closely.

So watch your sugar intake and your stress levels, keep your bedroom at a reasonable temperature, and be patient; the dreams will stop soon and you'll be sleeping normally in no time.
posted by stefanie at 10:00 AM on January 27, 2005

This might sound pretty pat, but try thinking through the exact relationship between the monsters in your dreams and how they map to your fears and worries. For about two years, I was suffering from really, really terrifying dreams that all revolved around Darth Vader (I know, cheesy as all hell, but that mask is pretty fucking scary in the context of a nightmare; and anyway, I'd argue that for my demographic, Darth Vader is more or less a universal archetype of Nasty Evil Guy). At the same time, i was going through some really, really traumatic stuff with my parents. Then, a couple of months ago, I had this sudden realization that Darth Vader is universally thought of as evil partly because he spends three movies trying to kill his son; and suddenly it made sense to me that these dreams were my mind trying to work through bad-parent associations.

And ever since I made that connection, I haven't had a single one of the dreams. Sounds sort of silly, but it's true, and I've slept a lot better since then.
posted by COBRA! at 10:02 AM on January 27, 2005

Sorry to hear about your sleeping problems, H of M. Anxiety is a son of a bitch. If you'll bear with me, I'd like to go through your list of stressers and offer some reassuring words.

I'm fucking terrified what Bush is going to do to this country, global warming and what happens if I die.

The Country will survive. Warren G. Harding couldn't destroy it, Nixon couldn't destroy it, and Bush cannot destroy it. Hell, the freaking Civil War couldn't destroy it.

Global Warming is a big problem, but it should abate once the oil runs out. Oil, after all, is a finite resource.

As for what happens if you die, I don't know the answer to that, but I do know this: a lot of people died today, and you were not one of them.

So live! And have Pleasant Dreams.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 10:11 AM on January 27, 2005

Manos, try wearing loose woolen or fleece socks to bed instead of using the electric blanket. It keeps you from getting too cold without the weird side effects of the electric blanket. Good luck!
posted by matildaben at 10:14 AM on January 27, 2005

Hey these are great suggestions!

I don't have any sugar intake (well, I don't eat refined candybar/soda type sugar) and I have done my part in helping the environment (I attempt to recylce, my average driving time in my honda civic is 10 miles a week...if that much --I'm a freelancer, I use bandwidth to meet my clients, not gas--). I certainly have done my part in the political process and well, I can't do much about Iraq except continue to protest the war.

I hate to say this, but yeah...Mefi can get depressing as hell seeing links up about Global Warming, Iraq (especially those graphic war images!!! yikes!) or something W has done. I'm a really sensitive person and whereas like my wife may feel something...I feel it magnified 10 times (henceforth why I don' t watch scary movies at all).

The worst part is (chatfilter a'comin') I think "crap, what if there is this other reality that angels/demons do interact with you in your dreams?" It kind of reminds me of when I was a kid and would read Piers Anthony. In his "Xanth" novels the people in Nightmare world would spend all day long rehearsing their lines to act in one's nightmare. My logical side wants to dismiss all this of course, but then my imaginative debates.

I really adhere to an athiestic view on "little angels and devils" (ei: I think it's utter bullshit) but I have chosen to choose a religious outlook of life...so sometimes I just wonder. /chatfilter
posted by Hands of Manos at 10:19 AM on January 27, 2005

thanks Fuzzy! (sorry I'm posting a lot in my own thread, but this is really on my mind right now)
posted by Hands of Manos at 10:21 AM on January 27, 2005

When i have recurring nightmares, i purposely think of silly, harmless things (Mickey Mouse, other cartoons, or fairy tale stuff) while i'm lying in bed before falling asleep--that, and reading something totally innocuous works (a history book, or a favorite novel that you've read a million times and know by heart). I find it's all about filling your mind with other stuff.
posted by amberglow at 10:30 AM on January 27, 2005

Dreams are difficult. Especially for intelligent people, they can be complex and crippling.

Getting high before you sleep is one way to avoid dreaming.

I don't know of any other way, really.
posted by orange clock at 10:31 AM on January 27, 2005

The worst part is I think "crap, what if there is this other reality that angels/demons do interact with you in your dreams?

You've got to be kidding me.
posted by orange clock at 10:32 AM on January 27, 2005

Hands, you and I are similar in that we fret about the future, but there is a key difference: you fret about stuff outside of yourself, whereas my fretting is more internalized. By which I mean that you fret about the world -- politics, bush, Iraq, the environment, etc. I'm not political (which, I know, makes me a horrible person), so I tend to worry about things like getting cancer and losing my job. We share the dying fear to some extent, but that seems remote enough at my age (39) as to be a similar fear to that of Global Warming.

It sometimes helps ME to get out of myself. In other words, it would help me to protest the war, write a letter to my congressman about global warming, etc. The more out-of-myself activities I pack in during the day, the less anxiety I have about myself at night.

My suggestion for you is that you try the opposite. It's really commendable that you're so involved in large causes, but you might want to take a break or ease down (the war-protest movement WILL survive without you). I'm not suggesting you take up worrying about cancer; I'm suggesting that you read a mystery novel instead of a newspaper article about Bush. Watch some dumb movies or TV shows before bed (pure entertainment or deeply serious movies about relationships between people), try a hobby that involves making something fun but unimportant. On Metafilter, read the posts about games instead of the ones about the war. Ease up on your obsessions!

When the dreams stop, you can get back to them. They will be there, waiting for you.
posted by grumblebee at 10:38 AM on January 27, 2005

Orange,

When I'm freaked out...rational thought is not on my top ten list of "things to do when I'm freaked out"
posted by Hands of Manos at 10:39 AM on January 27, 2005

When i have recurring nightmares, i purposely think of silly, harmless things (Mickey Mouse, other cartoons, or fairy tale stuff) while i'm lying in bed before falling asleep--that, and reading something totally innocuous works (a history book, or a favorite novel that you've read a million times and know by heart). I find it's all about filling your mind with other stuff.

Along these lines, do you have an iPod or something similar? I listen to mine in bed. I have a subscription to audible.com, and I download recorded books and listen to them, but you could use music. I listen until I'm about to fall asleep. If you go the audible route, don't you DARE listen to political books! Listen to romances, mysteries, sci-fi, etc. If you listen to music, don't listen to something that is background music for you -- something you can think over. Listen to music that involves you. (You have to be careful here, because you don't want to listen to music that makes you want to get up and dance.)
posted by grumblebee at 10:42 AM on January 27, 2005

Hands of Manos - try the following actions for restful sleep. Wash all your bed linens - perhaps you are reacting to something there. Eat bland foods for two days - perhaps a new spice in a new food is launching these nightmares? Cut out the caffeine during the day - only have one cup of coffee in the morning if you must. Take a warm bath before going to sleep. Meditate in the evening, or take a gentle yoga class (also in the evening). Read a pleasant and inspiring book before falling asleep.

Basically put your mind and body to rest for the next few days - and see if this chases away your demons. You can't control Bush or his cronies, but you can control your immediate environment - your home, your food, your drink and your body.
posted by seawallrunner at 10:43 AM on January 27, 2005

Orange swan, I'm a complete atheist and skeptic, so all supernatural elements seem equally silly to me, but if someone is religious -- if they believe in one supernatural element -- why shouldn't they beleive in others?
posted by grumblebee at 10:44 AM on January 27, 2005

They will go away on their own. It serves no purpose to get worked up over nightmares, which can in no way harm you, although certainly the sleep disruption can certainly affect one.

The best approach to most nightmares is to try to become lucid in your dream (this is easier for some people than for others) and to face the negative imagery rather than run from it. In almost all cases after this is done, it will never return (and there's something that feels very good about being proactive and direct rather than fearful and at-the-mercy of these "demons").
posted by rushmc at 10:47 AM on January 27, 2005

Do you know that you're dreaming while dreaming (but still can't wake up, etc) or you think you might be able to?

Lucid Dreaming might be an answer then. Basically, if you realize you're in a dream you should be able to exert some control over it. The only catch is you must be very confident in yourself. It's purely psychological, so if you think you can't do it, you won't.

Lucid Dreaming is also hella cool.
posted by easyasy3k at 11:04 AM on January 27, 2005

grumblebee: you mean orange clock, right?

orange clock/orange swan... clock swan... swanclock...
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 11:05 AM on January 27, 2005

I had similar dreams, and in the actual dream remember calling on the name of Jesus to take care of the problem. It worked, and I woke up.

It might or might not be a spiritual problem. If it is, it needs a spiritual solution. If you want any further conversation on that email me, as I have quite enough interesting feedback from the materialists on the site as it is. ;-)
posted by konolia at 11:12 AM on January 27, 2005

Apologies in advance for the longwindedness of the following, but I want to take what I see as xorowo's message a step further: you have to deal with the issues that are bothering you.

Even if you believe that dreams are simply a matter of random neurons firing off, I think you'll agree that the way the mind ascribes meaning to that randomness is somewhat significant. I believe Jungian interpretation of dreams treats all characters in a dream as expressions of some aspect of yourself. Even if a character in a dream is your mother, it's not of course, *really* your mother but an embodiment of your feelings about her. Does that make sense? So, then, the demons represent, as you seem at least partially aware of, your own anxieties. They're not outside of you--they're a necessary part of you, and that means they can't hurt you unless you let them.

So, some of the things I'd recommend are:

1. talking about your nightmares to your friends. Doing the ask.mefi thing was a good first step! This might reinforce your memory of the dreams and thus make them more likely, but I'm inclined to think that it'll have results more like that of xorowo or COBRA!

2. Really think through what the demons might represent and how you feel about those concepts and what you can do about them. If thinking about the ideas only causes anxiety, it might be because you're only thinking to the point of feeling anxiety about them, not the further steps of what you can do about them. Doing the former reinforces the anxiety and the power it holds over you; the latter can help dismantle the anxiety.

a. this country--Fuzzy Monster is right. [Godwin filter ahead!] As horrific as the experience must have been at the time, the Nazis destroyed neither Germany nor Europe nor the Jews, and the cold war didn't end the world, so four more years of Bush isn't going to destroy America. Once you know the worst case scenario isn't as bad as it might've initially seemed, you can work backwards towards more likely scenarios and start addressing what you can do about them. [I felt sick on November 3, too, and I decided to join the ACLU and start volunteering for Habitat for Humanity.]

b. global warming--okay that 'Tipping Point' link earlier this week wasn't encouraging, but remember that life on earth has survived ice ages, reversals of the magnetic polarity (with the effect of letting in a lot more solar radiation), meteor/comet impacts and concomitant (non)nuclear winters, and I don't know what else that caused *unimaginably* huge die-offs. Aren't some estimates that 95% of the life forms on earth died at least once?

c. what happens if I die--I'd say that thinking (as opposed to obsessing) about this might equate to the beginning of wisdom. I'd encourage you to seek spiritual and non-spiritual explanations for what happens, although you could end up questing as long as you live. ['Spiritual' should be self-evident, and there'll be tons of places to look for info along that route; by 'non-spiritual', consider, what happens to a Unix/Linux process when you kill -9 it, or a Sim when you delete the character? Where do they go? And what are other beliefs about death held by people who do not follow one of the three big monotheistic religions?]

3. Have you ever heard of lucid dreaming? There are some who say it's simply illusory, but the basic idea is that you become aware within your dream that you are dreaming, and more importantly, you can assume some amount of control over the dream. People who can do this a lot often talk about its positive effect on their lives; if you could somehow manage to take control of your worst nightmare and start whooping demon ass, it might make your real life anxieties die down somewhat, right? On the other hand, there are those who (thinking along those Jungian interpretation lines again) would recommend that rather than trying to fight the demons, you instead let them know that they can't hurt you, you're not afraid of them, and then interrogate them. Ask them what they want from you, what it'd take to make them go away. You can probably google for an infinite amount of great lucid dreaming information, but the basic thing I remember hearing to do was to write a letter or symbol on your palm and think to yourself every time you notice it, "Is this real or a dream?" If you can develop that habit in your waking life, perhaps it'll spill over into your dreaming life. Also, whenever you see text, look at it twice. Text in a dream very often changes between glimpses, so that's a good sign you're dreaming too. It is often sufficient that once you know you're dreaming, you can manage some control over it.

Good luck!

On preview... damn. Still, HTH!
posted by kimota at 11:13 AM on January 27, 2005

Hands of Manos, I have similar problems with really fucked up anxiety dreams that stem from personal issues (money, a fear of not getting enough sleep or not waking up, etc.) plus worries about Bush policies, etc.
I'll second the Valerian suggestion. I just tried it out for the first time after reading an askmefi thread and it's helped immensely. My dreams are now mostly insignificant and pretty unmemorable. It does lose its effectiveness a little after a few weeks, so I stay off it on the weekends and try to do without it at least one weeknight. And it does smell like belly button debris - pretty nasty, but my cats are intrigued. Also, I find it helps if your room is kinda cool and humidified if necessary.
Try to set aside a half hour to an hour before bed to relax in a low lit room, drink chamomile tea or whatever relaxes you and listen to soothing music or something. And maybe schedule time way before bedtime to catch up on the news.
posted by sophie at 11:19 AM on January 27, 2005

It's important to remember that natural remedies, like synthetic medicines, can have unpredictable effects. Melatonin gives me horrible, vivid nightmares-- something akin to a child's night terrors-- but it's a godsend to my brother. I tried St. John's Wort with melatonin to counter the night-terrors, and ended up with insomnia.

A few really good nights of sleep may do wonders. Anxiety and fatigue feed off each other. You may want to try a mild sedative. I use benadryl or Gravol (dramamine) on occasion. BTW, people are very afraid of getting addicted to sleep aids. This is actually quite rare.

(P.S. you may also consider a nightly routine that would allow you to wind down before bed.)
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 11:29 AM on January 27, 2005

It sounds like your self-care is already excellent, Hands of Manos, so my usual dietary/exericse advice would be redundant. So I'm going to recommend breathing exercises and meditation.
posted by Zed_Lopez at 11:36 AM on January 27, 2005

As others have said, if you're feeling a great deal of anxiety, you should probably explore those feelings and figure out a way to get past it. Still, if you're scared to sleep, you might try changing the time on your alarm to see if you can wake yourself up when you're out of a dream cycle. Assuming of course that you are your wife aren't waking you as a result of one of these dreams, you may have them and just never remember them if you wake up at the right time.
posted by willnot at 11:37 AM on January 27, 2005

Wow you guys are the greatest! I am deeply indebted to all your responses. If you guys ever make it into Atlanta, a cold one is on me!

(and this goes for anyone else that gives an answer here as well)
posted by Hands of Manos at 11:39 AM on January 27, 2005

To sort of continue with gesamtkunstwerk's thought: I've found that the first best step can be chemical-- that is, avoiding certain chemicals. Refined sugar puts the blood-sugar level up at places it's not supposed to go, sapping energy and destroying one's ability to relax; and caffeine has a similar effect. I find that, when I'm hitting a rough spot in my sleep, substituting honey for sugar in my diet and avoiding caffeine does wonders. Sometimes your body just wants to be left alone for a bit.

This is probably just a small point, though. Good luck!
posted by koeselitz at 11:44 AM on January 27, 2005

(whoops, see you already did that... sorry, should've read the whole thread first... good luck anyhow!)
posted by koeselitz at 11:46 AM on January 27, 2005

I had some pretty vivid nightmares after drinking some Yerbamate too soon before bedtime.

Sorry if I missed this in the thread, but is this anxiety manifesting itself in any other areas of your life, HoM? Apart from a general malaise, of course. Are you having panic attacks or intense feelings of dread/helplessness? If so, you might want to see a doctor about that. But, the fact that you work out often should take care of your anxiety levels pretty well. I don't know, just a thought.

Oh yeah, under no circumstances should you watch the movie Jacob's Ladder.
posted by fletchmuy at 2:09 PM on January 27, 2005

Watch what you watch on TV- after watching something scary, it usually makes it's way into my dreams. I had to stop watching "Unsolved Mysteries" when I was child for this very reason. And last week, after I saw a Law & Order episode featuring a pregnant 12 year old cult member, I dreamed I was pregnant the next two nights (now *that's* a nightmare). So, yea, keep an eye on your TV/movie intake.

On preview: fletchmuy, Jacob's Ladder!! I had to watch that movie for a class once- frightening. Sometimes I still feel like I see demons pop out of nowhere, all because of that movie.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:19 PM on January 27, 2005 [1 favorite]

Manos: I second the valerian, though I take it for other reasons [ blood pressure ] it does help you relax and relieves stress. Also catnip and basil tea works, it's very high in b-complex vitamins which naturally reduce/relieve the symptoms of stress.

Also what rushmc said. They are after all, just dreams and cannot harm you. They will go away.
posted by kamylyon at 4:37 PM on January 27, 2005

I have no idea what I'm talking about here as I never remember dreams, but I really think whatever is stalking your sleep is something your subconscious is wrestling with. In the earworm thread a while ago, I was thrilled to learn that other people sometimes get a snatch of song in their head and can't get rid of it until they figure out what their subconscious is "trying to tell them." Dreams are even more symbolic. The demons represent something concrete in your life. Figure out what, and I bet you sleep in peace.
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:13 PM on January 27, 2005

Not that I think LDs are that practical as a device for dealing with nightmares (who says you're especially likely to go lucid in the nightmare vs. any other deam), but kimota, after LaBerge's studies I don't think anyone claims lucid dreams are illusory anymore.
posted by abcde at 5:58 PM on January 27, 2005

I've heard that rooibos tea sometimes causes pleasant dreams -- and it's tasty!
posted by jennyjenny at 6:51 PM on January 27, 2005

Once I was thinking too much about the movie The Ring right before bed. I was tired and a bit impressionable, and I face the closet, which is an important part of the movie, if you haven't seen it.

What I ended up doing is getting my stuffed Cthulu doll and sleeping with it. After all, Cthulu is a big badass, he could eat the Ring girl for snacks. I just convinced myself that he'd protect me.

This is a bit embarressing because it wasn't when I was kid, this was last week. But everyone gets a bit irrational sometimes.
posted by stoneegg21 at 9:56 PM on January 27, 2005

This is a digital sketchbook of many artists (I cut my teeth on this place when fine tuning some of my illustration skills)
posted by Hands of Manos at 5:01 AM on January 28, 2005

ahk! shit, wrong post to wrong thread!!! -- Matt, erase please?
posted by Hands of Manos at 5:04 AM on January 28, 2005