I don't want to be left for Kate Beckinsale, Serendipity-style.
February 1, 2010 5:03 PM Subscribe
John Cusack and Lori Gottlieb are kind of stressing me out a tiny bit and leading to some messy, anxiety-filled thinking.
I read an excerpt of Lori Gottlieb's new book, and some of the stuff men say in her book (I'm looking at you, Henry, age 46) is making me feel anxious about my own experience and decisions.
Bear with me. This is a completely embarrassing question to ask because I wouldn't cop to reading this in the first place, and the fiance was the one who introduced me to Metafilter.
We're getting married in three months, and I don't think my fiance really thought right off the bat that he wanted to marry me. Henry, age 46, says that with men, wanting to marry a woman is a very visceral feeling and they know right after they have romantic intentions whether or not they want to marry her.
I've been with my fiance for four years, and we've been living together for two and a half of those four. This other book I read about cohabitation says that men don't think about cohabitation the way women do (that it's leading to marriage).
Is this "binary feeling" business crap? I've heard this from women, too, that they knew from the beginning that they were going to marry so and so from the moment they laid eyes on him (I had this experience, but then we started living together and I had feelings at some times that maybe I wasn't destined to be with him because things weren't measuring up to my inexperienced daydreams, but then I realized I wouldn't trade him for anything and he's awesome).
Obviously I love him and I look forward to getting married now, after working all of the fears and worries out, but if he didn't have that feeling of "You're the One," I'm happy to move aside rather than risk being hurt and divorced down the line.
I've talked to him about this, and he groaned, rolled his eyes and laughed at me (I think he just doesn't want to think about this deeply enough -- he's had about 20 girlfriends since high school and four long-term relationships, and he's 40 now, so he's plenty experienced), but it makes me wonder if he's met the right person yet and if that right person is me after all, or if he's just feeling old or ready to settle for me. I love him a lot, but I would do a lot to keep myself from getting hurt after making a huge legal commitment. I'd rather be alone than do that.
So is this legitimate? Would he have already known right off the bat and is it a bad sign if he didn't?
I read an excerpt of Lori Gottlieb's new book, and some of the stuff men say in her book (I'm looking at you, Henry, age 46) is making me feel anxious about my own experience and decisions.
Bear with me. This is a completely embarrassing question to ask because I wouldn't cop to reading this in the first place, and the fiance was the one who introduced me to Metafilter.
We're getting married in three months, and I don't think my fiance really thought right off the bat that he wanted to marry me. Henry, age 46, says that with men, wanting to marry a woman is a very visceral feeling and they know right after they have romantic intentions whether or not they want to marry her.
I've been with my fiance for four years, and we've been living together for two and a half of those four. This other book I read about cohabitation says that men don't think about cohabitation the way women do (that it's leading to marriage).
Is this "binary feeling" business crap? I've heard this from women, too, that they knew from the beginning that they were going to marry so and so from the moment they laid eyes on him (I had this experience, but then we started living together and I had feelings at some times that maybe I wasn't destined to be with him because things weren't measuring up to my inexperienced daydreams, but then I realized I wouldn't trade him for anything and he's awesome).
Obviously I love him and I look forward to getting married now, after working all of the fears and worries out, but if he didn't have that feeling of "You're the One," I'm happy to move aside rather than risk being hurt and divorced down the line.
I've talked to him about this, and he groaned, rolled his eyes and laughed at me (I think he just doesn't want to think about this deeply enough -- he's had about 20 girlfriends since high school and four long-term relationships, and he's 40 now, so he's plenty experienced), but it makes me wonder if he's met the right person yet and if that right person is me after all, or if he's just feeling old or ready to settle for me. I love him a lot, but I would do a lot to keep myself from getting hurt after making a huge legal commitment. I'd rather be alone than do that.
So is this legitimate? Would he have already known right off the bat and is it a bad sign if he didn't?
Which is better:
The guy who sees a woman and, right there, decides he wants to marry her, without knowing anything about her?
Or the guy who isn't sure at first, but spends time with a woman, knows her good and bad, attractive and unattractive, and decides he wants to spend the rest of his life with her?
I sure as hell would pick the latter. Why don't you trust your fiance when he says he wants to marry you?
posted by sallybrown at 5:13 PM on February 1, 2010 [10 favorites]
The guy who sees a woman and, right there, decides he wants to marry her, without knowing anything about her?
Or the guy who isn't sure at first, but spends time with a woman, knows her good and bad, attractive and unattractive, and decides he wants to spend the rest of his life with her?
I sure as hell would pick the latter. Why don't you trust your fiance when he says he wants to marry you?
posted by sallybrown at 5:13 PM on February 1, 2010 [10 favorites]
Yes, it's crap. No, it's not legitimate or a sign or anything.
What makes this Gottlieb person an expert? How do you know that Henry even exists, let alone is representative?
This is just more Men Are From Mars crap. Trust me, we're all from Earth.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:15 PM on February 1, 2010 [7 favorites]
What makes this Gottlieb person an expert? How do you know that Henry even exists, let alone is representative?
This is just more Men Are From Mars crap. Trust me, we're all from Earth.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:15 PM on February 1, 2010 [7 favorites]
People are different. If there was one, proven, correct, universal "answer" to love, then things would all be a lot simpler, no? Clearly, this isn't the case. Lots of people make lots of money selling books that peddle various ideas, and more often than not these books just make people feel worse about themselves and paranoid that their relationship doesn't fit the proposed "ideal".
I didn't really want to have a child. It wasn't high on my list of priorities. Now I've got a son, and I can't imagine life without him. I think the same thing can apply to marriage, or anything else.
You've got to learn to stop worrying and love the ride.
posted by Jimbob at 5:18 PM on February 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I didn't really want to have a child. It wasn't high on my list of priorities. Now I've got a son, and I can't imagine life without him. I think the same thing can apply to marriage, or anything else.
You've got to learn to stop worrying and love the ride.
posted by Jimbob at 5:18 PM on February 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
People love to say "All men do this!" "All women do this!" It's comforting to stereotype. But by talking about "all men," you avoid focusing on the individual details of one man -- your fiance. Remove gender completely from the analysis and proceed from there. Specifically: does it matter that he might not have known really, really soon that he wanted to marry you, given that you're now -- much, much later -- engaged to be married in 3 months? I think the answer is pretty clear.
posted by Jaltcoh at 5:19 PM on February 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Jaltcoh at 5:19 PM on February 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
Lori Gottlieb is a bitter, unhappy woman hoping to scare other women into settling for relationships with people they don't really love. Please don't listen to her.
However, if you have reason to believe that your fiance is anything less than overjoyed to be marrying you, I think premarital counseling would really benefit you. Of course, I think that every couple should get extensive premarital counseling. But especially in cases where one or both partners are nervous about the huge step they're taking (and I suspect that this is your nerves talking), it can help you sort out your feelings.
posted by decathecting at 5:19 PM on February 1, 2010 [6 favorites]
However, if you have reason to believe that your fiance is anything less than overjoyed to be marrying you, I think premarital counseling would really benefit you. Of course, I think that every couple should get extensive premarital counseling. But especially in cases where one or both partners are nervous about the huge step they're taking (and I suspect that this is your nerves talking), it can help you sort out your feelings.
posted by decathecting at 5:19 PM on February 1, 2010 [6 favorites]
Some people have instant faith in love; sometimes that faith will get them through future troubles, sometimes not.
Some people have faith in learning over time; sometimes that works out, sometimes not.
Henry, age 46, is probably no more an expert than your future husband.
I'm pretty sure my fiancé, and most of the guys I dated back in college, were in the cohabitation-leads-to-marriage camp.
Please don't stereotype men or women if you can help it. Everyone is an individual, and even if more men are X and more women are Y, an individual man or woman you know would probably appreciate you not assuming things about him or her based solely on gender.
Especially your fiancé.
posted by amtho at 5:21 PM on February 1, 2010
Some people have faith in learning over time; sometimes that works out, sometimes not.
Henry, age 46, is probably no more an expert than your future husband.
I'm pretty sure my fiancé, and most of the guys I dated back in college, were in the cohabitation-leads-to-marriage camp.
Please don't stereotype men or women if you can help it. Everyone is an individual, and even if more men are X and more women are Y, an individual man or woman you know would probably appreciate you not assuming things about him or her based solely on gender.
Especially your fiancé.
posted by amtho at 5:21 PM on February 1, 2010
I think I would also feel pretty insecure if I mentioned to my boyfriend that I was worried about something, and his response was to roll his eyes and laugh at me. Even if part of you thinks the issue is silly, you cared enough to say something, and I think that's worth respect. I think you should ask him to discuss it with you in a genuine way.
posted by Ashley801 at 5:23 PM on February 1, 2010
posted by Ashley801 at 5:23 PM on February 1, 2010
Jesus I'm tired of this sort of hogwash.
First of all, there is no The One. I'm sorry to burst the fairytale bubble but there is not. If your spouse - the one, the only one for you - dropped dead tomorrow, you'd be very sad and then, statistics tell us, you'd meet The Other One and re-marry. So, you know, that's romantic claptrap.
Second of all, neither men nor women approach things in some universal gender view. Henry's point of view is his own, though I have to say it sounds like horseshit to me. If that were the case, we'd all either be breaking up after the second date if we were not engaged at that point. There is a point to getting to know each other, you know.
Finally, I would just tell you that none of the stuff you seem to be fearing applied in my case at all. Some parts were fast, some parts were slow, but whatever - here we are seven years later and it's all good.
You may want to read The Concious Bride, which I suggest constantly on Ask, but I just found it so helpful when we moved in together and right before the wedding to hear other women talking about the stress and doubts of major transitions in relationships.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:36 PM on February 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
First of all, there is no The One. I'm sorry to burst the fairytale bubble but there is not. If your spouse - the one, the only one for you - dropped dead tomorrow, you'd be very sad and then, statistics tell us, you'd meet The Other One and re-marry. So, you know, that's romantic claptrap.
Second of all, neither men nor women approach things in some universal gender view. Henry's point of view is his own, though I have to say it sounds like horseshit to me. If that were the case, we'd all either be breaking up after the second date if we were not engaged at that point. There is a point to getting to know each other, you know.
Finally, I would just tell you that none of the stuff you seem to be fearing applied in my case at all. Some parts were fast, some parts were slow, but whatever - here we are seven years later and it's all good.
You may want to read The Concious Bride, which I suggest constantly on Ask, but I just found it so helpful when we moved in together and right before the wedding to hear other women talking about the stress and doubts of major transitions in relationships.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:36 PM on February 1, 2010 [5 favorites]
Everyone is totally different. And sometimes "visceral feelings" aren't as visceral as you think -- at one point, my ex absolutely, totally, incontrovertibly knew in his gut after only a few months of dating me that he was going to marry me. But then a month later when my roommate moved out, and the prospect of "....well, maybe WE could live together?" reared its head, he had just as strong and "visceral" a feeling that we were eventually going to break up anyway, so ultimately that's what he did instead.
Your fiance, on the other hand, has carefully considered what he wants and doesn't want, and chosen you based not JUST on what his heart is telling him, but also his head. That's much more telling.
....Now what the hell does John Cusack have to do with this question? I'm confused. (I also didn't see SERENDIPITY, so if that's what the reference is, fair enough.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:37 PM on February 1, 2010
Your fiance, on the other hand, has carefully considered what he wants and doesn't want, and chosen you based not JUST on what his heart is telling him, but also his head. That's much more telling.
....Now what the hell does John Cusack have to do with this question? I'm confused. (I also didn't see SERENDIPITY, so if that's what the reference is, fair enough.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:37 PM on February 1, 2010
Your fiance wants to marry you. Any thoughts Henry may have are completely irrelevant.
posted by sageleaf at 5:38 PM on February 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by sageleaf at 5:38 PM on February 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
Don't forget: people change over time, regardless of gender. That is, younger folks often wander through life with pretty unrealistic/rigid ideals about partners and relationships, which is why, generally speaking, they start to sound pretty vapid and superficial the older you get. With the passage of time, life has a way beating some sense into most of us, whether through a pleasant process of adjustment or a series unmitigated disasters.... Regardless of which route you take, as time passes, many people get better at looking past their preconceived notions, especially when it comes to relationships. Likewise, they often grow more appreciative any potential partner who meets their needs, even if that special someone might not have stood out as "special" at first. Seeing more than you expected at first in all parts of life is one of the many joys that maturity brings. But for this same reason, it's harder to sound so definitive about relationships, or anything else, as time passes. It's also probably the reason you SO wants to duck your line of questioning: In the end, it really doesn't matter, as long as you're making each other happy. Here's to happiness, whatever the age.
posted by 5Q7 at 5:44 PM on February 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by 5Q7 at 5:44 PM on February 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
"...with men, wanting to marry a woman is a very visceral feeling and they know right after they have romantic intentions whether or not they want to marry her" ... "So is this legitimate? Would he have already known right off the bat and is it a bad sign if he didn't?"
My husband knew -- the second time we met each other, he got a little tipsy and repeatedly declared to everyone at the poker table that he was going to marry me. This was before we'd even begun dating. I thought he was just drunk or possibly a nut but he ended up being right. (And apparently the only thing that kept him from going off the first time we met was that he thought I was "with" the friend I was with.)
Prior to meeting my husband I had ~14 years of relationship experience with at least a dozen experiences of being "in love" or at least limerence. I'd shacked up with a few guys, I'd been married and divorced, and since my divorce I'd been going about dating/husband hunting in a very strategic way. Although I was very attracted to my now-husband, I was initially opposed to dating him because he did not fit into my strategy and wasn't what I thought I was looking for. But he has ended up being the best man and the best relationship in my life. We started dating ~6 weeks after we met (we initially lived in different cities) and married ~6 months after we began dating.
I think one of the key things that has made my relationship with my husband different and better than all those prior is because he *knew* that I was "The One" from the beginning. His unwavering conviction of this overcame my initial skepticism, and has gotten us through a lot of struggles and challenges over the past few years. Most importantly, it has made him willing to Put Up With My Crap on a level that would have driven most sane men away a long time ago. :) It's not that he's a submissive beta-male -- far from it -- it's just that he knows that I'm his life mate, so even if I'm a bit difficult/crazy/extremely crabby sometimes, breaking up just isn't an option. Being with a man who loves you that much is such a different experience from being with a man who's just with you because you're "good enough" and he's comfortable.
So, it's real, and it helps a lot to have that in your relationship. But I don't know if it has to happen almost immediately upon meeting someone. Some people are easier to get to know than others, and if your fiance didn't really "see" you for who you are until later in the relationship then he might not have had that feeling right away. But if there was *never* a moment of blinding clarity in which he suddenly, viscerally realized "oh my god, I have to marry this woman," then yeah, I'd be concerned.
I'm also concerned about how long you've dated him without getting married, given his age and that you've "always" known you want to marry him. Except under unusual circumstances, the vetting process for a potential spouse really shouldn't take more than a year or so. If you're not ready to get married by then, then either you're not ready to get married at all or you're not with the right person. I see a lot of couples who date for so long that they end up getting married just because they're used to each other, or because it would be too much of a hassle to break up, or because they're getting old and running out of time to start a family. A lot of those marriages end up working out (if by "work out" you mean they don't get divorced) but they seem to be missing a certain spark and the participants seem only half-alive.
In the end, it comes down to how old you are and how much you want to have kids. If you're in your mid-30s and you really want kids, this may be your last chance. If you think that you and your fiance would be reasonably happy and good parents together, then you might be better off settling for him settling for you. But if you have time and/or kids are not a priority, then you might want to take your chances and try to find a man who *knows* that you're "The One" for him. If you do that, make sure you learn your lesson from this relationship -- don't waste another four years on someone else who doesn't feel that way about you. The longer you spend dating Mr. Wrong, the more opportunities you miss to meet Mr. Right.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:14 PM on February 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
My husband knew -- the second time we met each other, he got a little tipsy and repeatedly declared to everyone at the poker table that he was going to marry me. This was before we'd even begun dating. I thought he was just drunk or possibly a nut but he ended up being right. (And apparently the only thing that kept him from going off the first time we met was that he thought I was "with" the friend I was with.)
Prior to meeting my husband I had ~14 years of relationship experience with at least a dozen experiences of being "in love" or at least limerence. I'd shacked up with a few guys, I'd been married and divorced, and since my divorce I'd been going about dating/husband hunting in a very strategic way. Although I was very attracted to my now-husband, I was initially opposed to dating him because he did not fit into my strategy and wasn't what I thought I was looking for. But he has ended up being the best man and the best relationship in my life. We started dating ~6 weeks after we met (we initially lived in different cities) and married ~6 months after we began dating.
I think one of the key things that has made my relationship with my husband different and better than all those prior is because he *knew* that I was "The One" from the beginning. His unwavering conviction of this overcame my initial skepticism, and has gotten us through a lot of struggles and challenges over the past few years. Most importantly, it has made him willing to Put Up With My Crap on a level that would have driven most sane men away a long time ago. :) It's not that he's a submissive beta-male -- far from it -- it's just that he knows that I'm his life mate, so even if I'm a bit difficult/crazy/extremely crabby sometimes, breaking up just isn't an option. Being with a man who loves you that much is such a different experience from being with a man who's just with you because you're "good enough" and he's comfortable.
So, it's real, and it helps a lot to have that in your relationship. But I don't know if it has to happen almost immediately upon meeting someone. Some people are easier to get to know than others, and if your fiance didn't really "see" you for who you are until later in the relationship then he might not have had that feeling right away. But if there was *never* a moment of blinding clarity in which he suddenly, viscerally realized "oh my god, I have to marry this woman," then yeah, I'd be concerned.
I'm also concerned about how long you've dated him without getting married, given his age and that you've "always" known you want to marry him. Except under unusual circumstances, the vetting process for a potential spouse really shouldn't take more than a year or so. If you're not ready to get married by then, then either you're not ready to get married at all or you're not with the right person. I see a lot of couples who date for so long that they end up getting married just because they're used to each other, or because it would be too much of a hassle to break up, or because they're getting old and running out of time to start a family. A lot of those marriages end up working out (if by "work out" you mean they don't get divorced) but they seem to be missing a certain spark and the participants seem only half-alive.
In the end, it comes down to how old you are and how much you want to have kids. If you're in your mid-30s and you really want kids, this may be your last chance. If you think that you and your fiance would be reasonably happy and good parents together, then you might be better off settling for him settling for you. But if you have time and/or kids are not a priority, then you might want to take your chances and try to find a man who *knows* that you're "The One" for him. If you do that, make sure you learn your lesson from this relationship -- don't waste another four years on someone else who doesn't feel that way about you. The longer you spend dating Mr. Wrong, the more opportunities you miss to meet Mr. Right.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:14 PM on February 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
Ha. Days before our marriage, my husband confessed he wasn't sure I was "the one." I didn't like that very much even though I pretty much thought the same thing. How dare he? Anyway, that was 19 years ago. He's changed his mind (I am the one) he says. I still have occasional doubts, particularly when the outside world is stressful.
I think that it's very hard not to have doubts about a relationship. Two different people, two different backgrounds, two sets of values and ethics (however similar), two genders (often), two sets of dreams and goals, two ways of fighting, two ways of raising children.
Now, the first guy who I thought was the one, I lived with him for 3.5 years, I've stalked him on Facebook recently and am so so so glad I didn't end up with him.
posted by b33j at 6:29 PM on February 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think that it's very hard not to have doubts about a relationship. Two different people, two different backgrounds, two sets of values and ethics (however similar), two genders (often), two sets of dreams and goals, two ways of fighting, two ways of raising children.
Now, the first guy who I thought was the one, I lived with him for 3.5 years, I've stalked him on Facebook recently and am so so so glad I didn't end up with him.
posted by b33j at 6:29 PM on February 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
As a male, I can't endorse this snap/binary judgement myth. You might know immediately who you're immediately attracted to; that's about it. Attraction can grow, and (of course) love grows naturally over time with the right person.
posted by Robson at 6:34 PM on February 1, 2010
posted by Robson at 6:34 PM on February 1, 2010
Everyone is totally different, even where there are accurate trends. If we extrapolate actual human behavior from the behavior illustrated in books and movies (which is selected for dramatic impact, and then exaggerated for effect) we'd have to assume we're surrounded by some pretty fucked up people all day long.
posted by davejay at 6:40 PM on February 1, 2010
posted by davejay at 6:40 PM on February 1, 2010
A quick comment: It might help you to read about studies regarding what contributes to the likelihood of a marriage succeeding or failing. Try starting with this search or this search. It matters how you communicate, especially how you argue. As far as I know it doesn't matter how you felt when you met--or, more specifically, that successful relationships can come out of either "love at first sight" or other circumstances.
But mostly--
This other book I read about cohabitation says that men don't think about cohabitation the way women do (that it's leading to marriage).
I wanted to address this. Some people--not just women--move in with a boyfriend or girlfriend assuming, but not saying that they assume, that cohabiting will lead to marriage (or assuming, but not saying that they assume, that cohabiting is an acceptable long-term substitute for marriage). I suspect that something to do with the way women are socialized leads some, maybe even many women to think they can't bring up marriage for fear of scaring a boyfriend away. If there isn't a conversation that happens before a couple moves in together, there's no way to know whether each person is on the same page or not in terms of planning for the future.
Some people who write advice books tend to focus on the outcomes of those mistaken assumptions rather than giving practical advice like, "Have a conversation with your partner about your respective plans for the future." Instead, they boil it down to "Men think like X, women think like Y." It sounds like your book is in that vein. That's not the only perspective. Whatever you believe about how men think vs. how women think, you must also consider how adults talk. Or, rather how adults should talk. It would be totally romantic and wonderful if people could intuit their partners' hopes and plans--but that's not reality.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:44 PM on February 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
But mostly--
This other book I read about cohabitation says that men don't think about cohabitation the way women do (that it's leading to marriage).
I wanted to address this. Some people--not just women--move in with a boyfriend or girlfriend assuming, but not saying that they assume, that cohabiting will lead to marriage (or assuming, but not saying that they assume, that cohabiting is an acceptable long-term substitute for marriage). I suspect that something to do with the way women are socialized leads some, maybe even many women to think they can't bring up marriage for fear of scaring a boyfriend away. If there isn't a conversation that happens before a couple moves in together, there's no way to know whether each person is on the same page or not in terms of planning for the future.
Some people who write advice books tend to focus on the outcomes of those mistaken assumptions rather than giving practical advice like, "Have a conversation with your partner about your respective plans for the future." Instead, they boil it down to "Men think like X, women think like Y." It sounds like your book is in that vein. That's not the only perspective. Whatever you believe about how men think vs. how women think, you must also consider how adults talk. Or, rather how adults should talk. It would be totally romantic and wonderful if people could intuit their partners' hopes and plans--but that's not reality.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:44 PM on February 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
Jacqueline: My husband knew -- the second time we met each other... he knows that I'm his life mate, so... breaking up just isn't an option.
I would argue that this is less about some "across a crowded room" instant knowing thing and more about commitment. I also think it's about conflict resolution styles; some people (notably, teenagers) are willing to hang the relationship out over the water with every damn disagreement; others of us are not about winning or being right but about arguing to resolution.
FWIW, I had the instant "OMG he's the one!" experience at 15, and holy moly was he... he actually was the one for a long time, but then he wasn't. That feeling, and that certainty, can fade. It's real when it happens, and it can either stick around and keep being real or fade, like it does in the majority of relationships.
In other words, while it can and does happen, I do not believe it is any kind of predictor.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:19 PM on February 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
I would argue that this is less about some "across a crowded room" instant knowing thing and more about commitment. I also think it's about conflict resolution styles; some people (notably, teenagers) are willing to hang the relationship out over the water with every damn disagreement; others of us are not about winning or being right but about arguing to resolution.
FWIW, I had the instant "OMG he's the one!" experience at 15, and holy moly was he... he actually was the one for a long time, but then he wasn't. That feeling, and that certainty, can fade. It's real when it happens, and it can either stick around and keep being real or fade, like it does in the majority of relationships.
In other words, while it can and does happen, I do not believe it is any kind of predictor.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:19 PM on February 1, 2010 [2 favorites]
You should listen to the first act of this episode of This American Life. It's an interview with Lori Gottlieb, about the time she saw a picture of a cute author in her favorite magazine and decided he was The One. She went to pretty desperate lengths to meet him, with disastrous results. The episode's from 2005, so it's not directly related to the book you're talking about, but I think it's interesting for a couple of reasons:
a.) It's a great example of the fact that you cannot be in love with a person you don't know well. You're bound to be disappointed, at some point, because the person you've decided to spend forever with doesn't exist except as some idealized figure in your head. So while Henry, age 46, might very well choose romantic partners based on an instant gut reaction, I bet he also has some pretty shitty relationships.
b.) It shows that Lori Gottlieb has some pretty weird ideas about human relationships. The ideas she espouses in Marry Him seem like a result of her previous attitudes/efforts failing so miserably, rather than being based on universal truths about the nature of men and women.
posted by arianell at 8:10 PM on February 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
a.) It's a great example of the fact that you cannot be in love with a person you don't know well. You're bound to be disappointed, at some point, because the person you've decided to spend forever with doesn't exist except as some idealized figure in your head. So while Henry, age 46, might very well choose romantic partners based on an instant gut reaction, I bet he also has some pretty shitty relationships.
b.) It shows that Lori Gottlieb has some pretty weird ideas about human relationships. The ideas she espouses in Marry Him seem like a result of her previous attitudes/efforts failing so miserably, rather than being based on universal truths about the nature of men and women.
posted by arianell at 8:10 PM on February 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
Except under unusual circumstances, the vetting process for a potential spouse really shouldn't take more than a year or so. If you're not ready to get married by then, then either you're not ready to get married at all or you're not with the right person.
I couldn't disagree with this more.
posted by pinky at 8:18 PM on February 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
I couldn't disagree with this more.
posted by pinky at 8:18 PM on February 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
Anecdote: I am a man. I have twice had the ZOMG I AM GOING TO MARRY THIS WOMAN reaction upon meeting someone. Each time I dumped the woman a few months later. Matter of fact, those may have been the two messiest and most hurtful breakups of my life — and conversely, some of the happiest relationships of my life have been with people who I didn't even like on first glance. That first impression doesn't guarantee shit.
It's perfectly reasonable to be asking yourself "How committed is this guy?" But you should answer that question by looking for signs of, you know, commitment — is he willing to plan for the future together? does he stick with you when things are rough? — rather than for some hasty snap judgment on his part.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:21 PM on February 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
It's perfectly reasonable to be asking yourself "How committed is this guy?" But you should answer that question by looking for signs of, you know, commitment — is he willing to plan for the future together? does he stick with you when things are rough? — rather than for some hasty snap judgment on his part.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:21 PM on February 1, 2010 [3 favorites]
My boyfriend and I had been together about ten years before either of us thought about, or talked about, growing old together. We were too busy enjoying being together to much care. This year we had our 15 year anniversary and we have no intention of breaking up ever (our commitment has been discussed and this is something overt we have decided). Of course we're not married either, the laws here make it somewhat unnecessary and we're pretty well legally entangled anyways. But if you listen to Henry age 46 and Jacqueline with her one year marriage track we should have broken up years ago leaving me lonely and single. Instead I'm spending my life living with the man I love in a totally satisfying and fulfilling manner. So screw what anyone else thinks.
You clearly do have some nagging worries going on and maybe you should have a conversation with your fiancé about that, but make it about you and him rather than Henry and Lori. Being worried about your future is perfectly reasonable, you're about to make a big change in your relationship. But please don't give up those years of happiness based on what some stupid book says, they're too good to miss.
posted by shelleycat at 8:59 PM on February 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
You clearly do have some nagging worries going on and maybe you should have a conversation with your fiancé about that, but make it about you and him rather than Henry and Lori. Being worried about your future is perfectly reasonable, you're about to make a big change in your relationship. But please don't give up those years of happiness based on what some stupid book says, they're too good to miss.
posted by shelleycat at 8:59 PM on February 1, 2010 [1 favorite]
Seconding the recommendation to read The Concious Bride, which is useful for figuring out the anxieties specific to your own situation. You seem nervous about making this commitment, which is natural. But there are better ways to resolve that nervousness than by reading self-help books and watching rom-coms.
There are many crappy books which assume that all men are the same, and all women are the same. There's also lots of people whose lives are so narrow that they assume their experiences are representative of the whole human race. They're wrong.
Would you even love your fiance if he was the same as every other guy? Please respect him enough to believe him when he says he finds you special and different from other women (and he's met plenty, so he should know). He wants to marry you and not some random chick he's never even met yet.
I've had a guy say that very soon after meeting me, he knew I was The One. But he grew manipulative and physically agressive, and when I broke up with him he stalked me for many months. I say that he was full of shit about me being The One. "The One" isn't always a damaging concept, but it's an easy thing to say that sounds romantic, so it's not useful information about a guy's level of commitment.
posted by harriet vane at 3:18 AM on February 2, 2010
There are many crappy books which assume that all men are the same, and all women are the same. There's also lots of people whose lives are so narrow that they assume their experiences are representative of the whole human race. They're wrong.
Would you even love your fiance if he was the same as every other guy? Please respect him enough to believe him when he says he finds you special and different from other women (and he's met plenty, so he should know). He wants to marry you and not some random chick he's never even met yet.
I've had a guy say that very soon after meeting me, he knew I was The One. But he grew manipulative and physically agressive, and when I broke up with him he stalked me for many months. I say that he was full of shit about me being The One. "The One" isn't always a damaging concept, but it's an easy thing to say that sounds romantic, so it's not useful information about a guy's level of commitment.
posted by harriet vane at 3:18 AM on February 2, 2010
Go with what works for you. People are not divisible into Venn diagrams.
posted by IAmBroom at 4:35 AM on February 2, 2010
posted by IAmBroom at 4:35 AM on February 2, 2010
So is this legitimate? Would he have already known right off the bat and is it a bad sign if he didn't?
while the plural of anectdote isn't data...
I am a man. I have only ever once felt the more-or-less immediate "I would marry her" feeling about someone - so there's another vote for "it does happen".
However, I also once got dumped by a (different) woman - a woman I was intending on marrying (a woman for whom I was paying on an engagment ring); a woman who, when I first met her, I wasn't sure I wanted to date, but eventually decided that I wanted to marry.
So, anecdotally speaking? Yes the binary feeling model is crap, and it is not a bad sign that he didn't feel so "immediately".
posted by namewithoutwords at 5:50 AM on February 2, 2010
while the plural of anectdote isn't data...
I am a man. I have only ever once felt the more-or-less immediate "I would marry her" feeling about someone - so there's another vote for "it does happen".
However, I also once got dumped by a (different) woman - a woman I was intending on marrying (a woman for whom I was paying on an engagment ring); a woman who, when I first met her, I wasn't sure I wanted to date, but eventually decided that I wanted to marry.
So, anecdotally speaking? Yes the binary feeling model is crap, and it is not a bad sign that he didn't feel so "immediately".
posted by namewithoutwords at 5:50 AM on February 2, 2010
Henry, age 46, says that with men, wanting to marry a woman is a very visceral feeling and they know right after they have romantic intentions whether or not they want to marry her.
No, not 'marry.' Henry means fuck and be taken care of. Marriage is something else entirely and halfway intelligent men don't make that decision with their dicks. Marriage is half love, half business, half social, half aspirational. Talk through all of it with your guy. Marriage is 98% communication and 10% resentment. Bring it up, insist that he not roll his eyes. Stop reading these books.
it makes me wonder if he's met the right person yet and if that right person is me after all, or if he's just feeling old or ready to settle for me.
It will become clearer, in time, that 'met the right person' and 'ready to settle' are the same thing. Can you solve problems together, give each other space? Will you agree not to fuck other people even though you'll want to? Could you raise kids together? Are you good roommates? Is there chemistry? It seems complicated but it is not complicated.
posted by waxbanks at 6:35 AM on February 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
No, not 'marry.' Henry means fuck and be taken care of. Marriage is something else entirely and halfway intelligent men don't make that decision with their dicks. Marriage is half love, half business, half social, half aspirational. Talk through all of it with your guy. Marriage is 98% communication and 10% resentment. Bring it up, insist that he not roll his eyes. Stop reading these books.
it makes me wonder if he's met the right person yet and if that right person is me after all, or if he's just feeling old or ready to settle for me.
It will become clearer, in time, that 'met the right person' and 'ready to settle' are the same thing. Can you solve problems together, give each other space? Will you agree not to fuck other people even though you'll want to? Could you raise kids together? Are you good roommates? Is there chemistry? It seems complicated but it is not complicated.
posted by waxbanks at 6:35 AM on February 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Nothing is universally true of anyone. The assertion that men in general know immediately and viscerally (whatever the fuck that even means) whether they want to marry someone is a particularly stupid example of the general stupidity of universal assertions.
I don't know what the genuine problems in your relationship are. I can tell you they all have them. I can tell you there are no guarantees. I can tell you relationships don't thrive without lifelong maintenance and care. I've been married almost 9 years and I sure don't take anything for granted.
There is no crystal ball. Quit reading that crap, quit obsessing over movie star relationships, fictional or "real." Serendipity was a stupid movie that was based on a stupid premise. Sleepless in Seattle was a fucking stupid movie also. Real relationships between real people in the real world are like everything else real: while they have foundations in both chance and "intrinsic" qualities, they only get anywhere by being built and maintained. If there are problems in your relationship you know about but are avoiding talking about start talking about them. If you want to exclude the possibility of people hurting you in the future go live alone in a cave.
posted by nanojath at 12:51 PM on February 2, 2010 [4 favorites]
I don't know what the genuine problems in your relationship are. I can tell you they all have them. I can tell you there are no guarantees. I can tell you relationships don't thrive without lifelong maintenance and care. I've been married almost 9 years and I sure don't take anything for granted.
There is no crystal ball. Quit reading that crap, quit obsessing over movie star relationships, fictional or "real." Serendipity was a stupid movie that was based on a stupid premise. Sleepless in Seattle was a fucking stupid movie also. Real relationships between real people in the real world are like everything else real: while they have foundations in both chance and "intrinsic" qualities, they only get anywhere by being built and maintained. If there are problems in your relationship you know about but are avoiding talking about start talking about them. If you want to exclude the possibility of people hurting you in the future go live alone in a cave.
posted by nanojath at 12:51 PM on February 2, 2010 [4 favorites]
"To paraphrase H.L. Mencken, nobody ever went broke underestimating the anxiety women feel about getting married. Gottlieb's merely capitalizing on that panic -- even though all the statistics show that the women she's writing about probably get hitched eventually."
posted by scody at 2:36 PM on February 2, 2010
posted by scody at 2:36 PM on February 2, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by zsazsa at 5:07 PM on February 1, 2010 [9 favorites]