Objectively speaking, was Jerry Garcia a great guitar player?
January 20, 2010 11:28 AM Subscribe
Objectively speaking, was Jerry Garcia a great guitar player?
I've enjoyed the musical stylings of the Grateful Dead for many years, and part of their appeal has been the guitar playing of Mr. Garcia. I've always thought of him as a superb guitar player and an excellent improviser. However, I've heard people say that he actually wasn't that great, and that "all he did was play the pentatonic scale."
I'm not a guitar player, so I have no real way of knowing how skilled he really was. And so I turn to you.
What I'm looking for here is an analysis of his playing skill by people with a good understanding of music and/or guitar playing. I'm interested in examining his playing both from a technical standpoint (was it particularly difficult to do what he did? was he good at it?) and from a compositional standpoint (was he very innovative? how would you rate his improvisational skill?) Bonus points if you can explain yourself in laymans' terms.
What I am not looking for is opinions about the culture surrounding the Grateful Dead.
For the sake of the question, let's assume that we're talking Jerry's work with the Dead during their early-70s heyday, say from 1969-1974.
I've enjoyed the musical stylings of the Grateful Dead for many years, and part of their appeal has been the guitar playing of Mr. Garcia. I've always thought of him as a superb guitar player and an excellent improviser. However, I've heard people say that he actually wasn't that great, and that "all he did was play the pentatonic scale."
I'm not a guitar player, so I have no real way of knowing how skilled he really was. And so I turn to you.
What I'm looking for here is an analysis of his playing skill by people with a good understanding of music and/or guitar playing. I'm interested in examining his playing both from a technical standpoint (was it particularly difficult to do what he did? was he good at it?) and from a compositional standpoint (was he very innovative? how would you rate his improvisational skill?) Bonus points if you can explain yourself in laymans' terms.
What I am not looking for is opinions about the culture surrounding the Grateful Dead.
For the sake of the question, let's assume that we're talking Jerry's work with the Dead during their early-70s heyday, say from 1969-1974.
Yeah, as much as I think the Dead suck, I can't deny that Jerry Garcia could play the fuck out of a guitar.
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:45 AM on January 20, 2010
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:45 AM on January 20, 2010
Best answer: Not a deadhead, but respect the music and play some guitar...
was it particularly difficult to do what he did?
No.
was he good at it?
Very.
was he very innovative?
Not particularly. My impression is that this type of band was fairly common at the time in various parts of the country, but that the Dead helped bring it to the masses. They also had a somewhat unique blend of styles; the strong country/bluegrass in the context of a folk/rock band is what always caught my attention.
how would you rate his improvisational skill?
Superior. The Dead is WAY more than just pentatonics -- I remember a friend in college was really into them and we jammed on their stuff a couple of time. I was a music major, and was very impressed at the tonal variety in both their melodies and harmonies.
The Dead are very bluegrass-influenced. Bluegrass is fairly easy to pick up on, but very difficult to master.
Technically, Garcia wouldn't be much of a threat to Yngwie, but neither would B. B. King (who could also be described -- by an idiot -- as "just playing pentatonic scales"). His playing impresses me because of its effortlessness. A lot of his soloing isn't difficult, but it flows like water. Keep in mind also that he's not standing up and saying, "Hey, this is the guitar solo and see how good I am!" He's supporting the other instruments and voices in a very jazz-oriented way.
posted by coolguymichael at 11:49 AM on January 20, 2010 [6 favorites]
was it particularly difficult to do what he did?
No.
was he good at it?
Very.
was he very innovative?
Not particularly. My impression is that this type of band was fairly common at the time in various parts of the country, but that the Dead helped bring it to the masses. They also had a somewhat unique blend of styles; the strong country/bluegrass in the context of a folk/rock band is what always caught my attention.
how would you rate his improvisational skill?
Superior. The Dead is WAY more than just pentatonics -- I remember a friend in college was really into them and we jammed on their stuff a couple of time. I was a music major, and was very impressed at the tonal variety in both their melodies and harmonies.
The Dead are very bluegrass-influenced. Bluegrass is fairly easy to pick up on, but very difficult to master.
Technically, Garcia wouldn't be much of a threat to Yngwie, but neither would B. B. King (who could also be described -- by an idiot -- as "just playing pentatonic scales"). His playing impresses me because of its effortlessness. A lot of his soloing isn't difficult, but it flows like water. Keep in mind also that he's not standing up and saying, "Hey, this is the guitar solo and see how good I am!" He's supporting the other instruments and voices in a very jazz-oriented way.
posted by coolguymichael at 11:49 AM on January 20, 2010 [6 favorites]
I'm not a musician or a Dead fan, but isn't a lot of art just totally unquantifiable in terms of "greatness"?
Some of the music that touches me the most isn't innovative or virtuosic, it just speaks to me for some reason I can't name. That quality - the ability to "speak to" people - seems like the most important variable in what makes great art.
posted by serazin at 11:52 AM on January 20, 2010
Some of the music that touches me the most isn't innovative or virtuosic, it just speaks to me for some reason I can't name. That quality - the ability to "speak to" people - seems like the most important variable in what makes great art.
posted by serazin at 11:52 AM on January 20, 2010
coolguymichael nailed it better than i could put it. The one thing i'd like to add that set him apart from the masses: whenever you hear Jerry playing guitar, whether with the Dead, JGB, or other random cameo, you immediately know it's Jerry. His sound and style was unique.
posted by gnutron at 11:57 AM on January 20, 2010
posted by gnutron at 11:57 AM on January 20, 2010
Best answer: Serious guitar player, not a deadhead, not even a big fan. But while JG wasn't a great technician, what he played was tasty, fit perfectly with the song, and had an instantly identifiable "voice."
Great in my book.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:04 PM on January 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Great in my book.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:04 PM on January 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
As a caveat, I don't especially like the Grateful Dead and have never paid much attention to their music. I just listened to the 4 songs that show up at the top of a Google search for "grateful dead." (I realize that it's not fair to judge the ability of a guitarist who was mainly known for long, improvisatory live shows based on studio recordings.) Assuming that Garcia is playing all the lead guitar parts, I'd say he's a fine guitarist, and it's simply inaccurate to say he confined his solos to the pentatonic scale. A better description would be to say he tended to play in the mixolydian mode, but he also deviated from that (i.e. played chromatic notes) in the few songs I heard. I don't find the guitar playing (or any of the music) especially innovative or interesting, but I'm saying that based on a very limited sample. Everything I heard was tasteful and appropriate and pleasant; none of it was at the "virtuoso" level, but I can't hold that against him since good guitarists don't constantly play at their maximum level of technical proficiency. (And, more fundamentally, technical skill isn't the most important part of being a great guitarist.)
Finally, the fact that the band was lauded for their live improvisations suggests to me -- without even hearing those performances -- that they were probably pretty talented at it. Of course, the consensus could be wrong, but the odds are greater that your friend just enjoys going against conventional wisdom.
As a sidenote, guitarist are infamous for this kind of implicit bragging (he's not that great, it's easy, it's just five notes --> message: I could play at least that well, and by the way I have a good understanding of music because I'm willing to contradict the conventional wisdom and speak in [not necessarily correct] technical terms).
posted by Jaltcoh at 12:11 PM on January 20, 2010
Finally, the fact that the band was lauded for their live improvisations suggests to me -- without even hearing those performances -- that they were probably pretty talented at it. Of course, the consensus could be wrong, but the odds are greater that your friend just enjoys going against conventional wisdom.
As a sidenote, guitarist are infamous for this kind of implicit bragging (he's not that great, it's easy, it's just five notes --> message: I could play at least that well, and by the way I have a good understanding of music because I'm willing to contradict the conventional wisdom and speak in [not necessarily correct] technical terms).
posted by Jaltcoh at 12:11 PM on January 20, 2010
"all he did was play the pentatonic scale."
The type of music he played only needed the pentatonic scale. He was good. His stuff with David Grisman is fantastic.
posted by rocket88 at 12:18 PM on January 20, 2010
The type of music he played only needed the pentatonic scale. He was good. His stuff with David Grisman is fantastic.
posted by rocket88 at 12:18 PM on January 20, 2010
Best answer: A note about all the scale talk: what scale a person plays and how many pitches it contains is of very little relevance even to a discussion confined to technical ability, since note choice is just one aspect of performance. Rhythm and phrasing have a crucial role in the playing of a musician like BB King or Jerry Garcia, so to namedrop the pentatonic scale like its use somehow makes a guitarist lesser because it's missing 2 pitches is totally missing the point. And there are all kinds of interesting and unexpected ways to employ the pentatonic, just like any other scale. It's not about which notes you play but how you play them.
posted by ludwig_van at 12:24 PM on January 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by ludwig_van at 12:24 PM on January 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: His playing impresses me because of its effortlessness. A lot of his soloing isn't difficult
Just because something sounds effortless doesn't mean it is.
I'm not sure it makes any sense to separate the guitarist from the musician. Sammy Sosa could probably hit a baseball with a guitar better than any guitarist in history. It's not interesting what skills a person has with a guitar by itself. What's interesting is how that person translates those skills into music. That's the metric (if there even is one) of a good guitarist.
More specifically, how well does a particular guitarist play in the context of his or her band? In that regard, Jerry Garcia could probably be considered untouchable. (As a potentially useless thought experiment, I would propose that none of the guitarists The World Famous mentions could have played in The Dead like Jerry did).
Jerry was an extremely tasteful guitar player, and that's part of why the Grateful Dead worked. With all those instruments improvising at once, it can be very easy to overplay. Jerry's playing in that context is I think what leads some people to consider his work simplistic. What you hear him doing is listening and playing to the music, not showing off.
But sometimes he does get a chance to show off. In some of the more traditional song structures, he could rip a mean blues-grass lead line as well as anyone. And of course (outside of the context of your question) there's his acoustic work with David Grisman in which you hear Jerry explore a wider harmonic context than with the Dead.
And there are some technical points to make about his guitar playing. He had a readily identifiable tone (not all great guitarists do). He had some unique approaches to the fretboard as well (like those tiny slides down the high notes).
And his favorite scale was D Dorian.
posted by abc123xyzinfinity at 12:26 PM on January 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
Just because something sounds effortless doesn't mean it is.
I'm not sure it makes any sense to separate the guitarist from the musician. Sammy Sosa could probably hit a baseball with a guitar better than any guitarist in history. It's not interesting what skills a person has with a guitar by itself. What's interesting is how that person translates those skills into music. That's the metric (if there even is one) of a good guitarist.
More specifically, how well does a particular guitarist play in the context of his or her band? In that regard, Jerry Garcia could probably be considered untouchable. (As a potentially useless thought experiment, I would propose that none of the guitarists The World Famous mentions could have played in The Dead like Jerry did).
Jerry was an extremely tasteful guitar player, and that's part of why the Grateful Dead worked. With all those instruments improvising at once, it can be very easy to overplay. Jerry's playing in that context is I think what leads some people to consider his work simplistic. What you hear him doing is listening and playing to the music, not showing off.
But sometimes he does get a chance to show off. In some of the more traditional song structures, he could rip a mean blues-grass lead line as well as anyone. And of course (outside of the context of your question) there's his acoustic work with David Grisman in which you hear Jerry explore a wider harmonic context than with the Dead.
And there are some technical points to make about his guitar playing. He had a readily identifiable tone (not all great guitarists do). He had some unique approaches to the fretboard as well (like those tiny slides down the high notes).
And his favorite scale was D Dorian.
posted by abc123xyzinfinity at 12:26 PM on January 20, 2010 [3 favorites]
This guitar player believes that there is no such thing as "objectively" good in guitar playing.
I do like Garcia though. I like listening to him. Especially the early dead up to '73. I'm crazy electic though and it isn't everyone's cup of tea. I think I'm one of the few who can like Yo La Tengo, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, The Grateful Dead and Bon Iver all at the same time. Today, I've been listening to Death.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:35 PM on January 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
I do like Garcia though. I like listening to him. Especially the early dead up to '73. I'm crazy electic though and it isn't everyone's cup of tea. I think I'm one of the few who can like Yo La Tengo, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, The Grateful Dead and Bon Iver all at the same time. Today, I've been listening to Death.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:35 PM on January 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
I can't hold that against him since good guitarists don't constantly play at their maximum level of technical proficiency.
Indeed, it is the sign of a highly skilled, but poor guitarist. Wankery abounds. This is why I dislike Eric Clapton.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:37 PM on January 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Indeed, it is the sign of a highly skilled, but poor guitarist. Wankery abounds. This is why I dislike Eric Clapton.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:37 PM on January 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Here's a simpler metric. Does the guitarist in question transcend the instrument and make you feel? Anecdote after anecdote indicates Jerry did. So I think objectively, he was a great guitarist.
Also.
posted by toastchee at 1:26 PM on January 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Also.
posted by toastchee at 1:26 PM on January 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
Jerry never really grabbed me, but I can respect that he did reach so many people emotionally with his music. To me that means he was great, and even though I'm not a fan I can say that without hesitation.
As an aside, everyone is entitled to opinions, but people who discuss artists like it's a competition really get in my craw. Next time you hear someone saw something like this, hand them a guitar and ask them to demonstrate what they mean. That should shut them up.
posted by quarterframer at 1:35 PM on January 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
As an aside, everyone is entitled to opinions, but people who discuss artists like it's a competition really get in my craw. Next time you hear someone saw something like this, hand them a guitar and ask them to demonstrate what they mean. That should shut them up.
posted by quarterframer at 1:35 PM on January 20, 2010 [2 favorites]
So which song/performance best illustrates his strengths as a guitar player?
posted by mecran01 at 1:46 PM on January 20, 2010
posted by mecran01 at 1:46 PM on January 20, 2010
I ran this question past a friend of mine, a classical music scholar who recently immersed himself in Grateful Dead music on a lark. His take: I'd say he was more an exceptionally open-minded and witty musician than a new Segovia.
posted by Sublimity at 3:02 PM on January 20, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by Sublimity at 3:02 PM on January 20, 2010 [4 favorites]
I would say that he was a great improviser by the standards of jam-band music and the folk/bluegrass traditions. No dis intended--that's what he played.
posted by box at 3:02 PM on January 20, 2010
posted by box at 3:02 PM on January 20, 2010
Sometimes you could hear Jerry thinking/imagining/dreaming while he played. Sometimes there was the slightest hesitation, and maybe a bit of a stumble as he changed modalities or attacks or rythyms or what have you. Not all that many guitarists have that kind of courage, to allow you to see them wondering which note to play next.
posted by telstar at 3:53 PM on January 20, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by telstar at 3:53 PM on January 20, 2010 [5 favorites]
I've thought about this all day, and listened to some Dead in the process, and have concluded that JG made what would otherwise have been noodling -- jumpy, arpeggiated filigree-work, spiky jabs, steel licks -- work as melody.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:17 PM on January 20, 2010
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:17 PM on January 20, 2010
I'm like Afroblanco, a fan without the musical knowledge to know how good or bad Garcia was. Thanks for the answers especially from the non-fans, I think that I understand somewhat better why he is one of my favorite guitar players. And thanks Afro for framing the question so well that it didn't get hit by the same boring old anti-dead comments (or if it did, thanks to the mods for deleting them).
posted by octothorpe at 6:24 PM on January 20, 2010
posted by octothorpe at 6:24 PM on January 20, 2010
> None of them could have played in The Sex Pistols like Steve Jones did, either. That doesn't mean Steve Jones was particularly good.
Since I think that the Sex Pistols were particularly good, I submit that those statements are contradictory.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:54 AM on January 21, 2010
Since I think that the Sex Pistols were particularly good, I submit that those statements are contradictory.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:54 AM on January 21, 2010
> Ahem. The fact that a band is a "good band" does not mean that all of its members are good at their instrument. (See, e.g., Sid Vicious).
Since you have now stated that half the band wasn't good, I'm wondering if you think one or the other of the band made the difference, or if you just don't like them at all.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:18 AM on January 21, 2010
Since you have now stated that half the band wasn't good, I'm wondering if you think one or the other of the band made the difference, or if you just don't like them at all.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:18 AM on January 21, 2010
As much as I'd like to argue about whether the Sex Pistols were talented and whether Malcolm McLaren was the one that made the difference, it's a derail.
posted by box at 10:34 AM on January 21, 2010
posted by box at 10:34 AM on January 21, 2010
> As much as I'd like to argue about whether the Sex Pistols were talented and whether Malcolm McLaren was the one that made the difference, it's a derail.
Well, it goes to 'what makes a good guitarist' (context vs. isolated ability) so I don't think it's a derail at all.
I.e., if TWF just doesn't like the Pistols, then his comments about Jones, and by extension Garcia (the object of the exercise,) are put in one context. If he does, then that's a different context.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:39 AM on January 21, 2010
Well, it goes to 'what makes a good guitarist' (context vs. isolated ability) so I don't think it's a derail at all.
I.e., if TWF just doesn't like the Pistols, then his comments about Jones, and by extension Garcia (the object of the exercise,) are put in one context. If he does, then that's a different context.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:39 AM on January 21, 2010
Glen Matlock played on the Pistols' studio recordings, not Sid Vicious. And yes, Sid sucked.
/derail
posted by Rykey at 1:24 PM on January 21, 2010
/derail
posted by Rykey at 1:24 PM on January 21, 2010
Response by poster: Awesome! So glad I asked this question. I've been wondering about this for years. I've always loved listening to Jerry play and have to agree that his style was absolutely perfect for the Dead and Grisman. The remark about BB King is also very apt -- so much of music is in how you play it. Jerry's playing had such a distinctive voice -- I believe that I could tell his style just from hearing a few seconds of a recording.
After reading the (thoughtful, interesting) responses here, I believe that my question has been answered : Yes. Yes, Jerry Garcia was a great guitar player.
Marked as Resolved.
posted by Afroblanco at 4:01 PM on January 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
After reading the (thoughtful, interesting) responses here, I believe that my question has been answered : Yes. Yes, Jerry Garcia was a great guitar player.
Marked as Resolved.
posted by Afroblanco at 4:01 PM on January 21, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've always loved listening to Jerry play
Ah, so you knew the answer to your question before you posted it.
In other words, if you love listening to someone play guitar, then that person is a great guitarist. Making music that people love to listen to is the whole point of being a musician.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:08 AM on January 22, 2010
Ah, so you knew the answer to your question before you posted it.
In other words, if you love listening to someone play guitar, then that person is a great guitarist. Making music that people love to listen to is the whole point of being a musician.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:08 AM on January 22, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Also, "All he did was play the pentatonic scale" might be the stupidest put-down I've ever heard. Sounds like you're dealing with music-snob equivalents of stereo nerds.
posted by jbickers at 11:40 AM on January 20, 2010 [1 favorite]