Help me resolve the stupidest idiom-related argument

January 16, 2010 5:12 AM

Is the saying "fifth wheel" or "third wheel"?

I've had this argument with far too many people: I say that the saying is "fifth wheel" because if you add a fifth wheel to a car, you're not adding any added functionality. Everyone else I've talked to, though, has defended "third wheel" because, hey, that's what other people say. But if you add a third wheel to a bicycle, it's got added balance and is extra-useful, right? So which one is the proper saying?

posted by Bleusman to Writing & Language (44 answers total)

The idiom is fifth wheel.
posted by donajo at 5:18 AM on January 16, 2010

I say 3rd. BF says 5th. I imagine it's just regional useage.
posted by The Whelk at 5:19 AM on January 16, 2010

FIFTH wheel. A third wheel is a tricycle, dammit.

(Why yes, this is one of those things that drives me bonkers for no good reason and I should not give it brainspace, but I do.)
posted by kalimac at 5:27 AM on January 16, 2010 [2 favorites]

Google Fight says that third wheel wins.
posted by drezdn at 5:30 AM on January 16, 2010

A fifth-wheel is a kind of camper vehicle, though. Or more properly, it's the coupling used to attach some sort of trailer to whatever is pulling it. But anyway, the usage of fifth wheel I have heard is referring to the campers. So that fifth wheel is very useful in that instance.
posted by fairywench at 5:32 AM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

Fifth wheel is correct. People (incorrectly) use third wheel more often because the expression is mostly used to describe situations in which a third person is extraneous, and because most people don't really think about the reasons behind an expression when they use it.
posted by Billegible at 5:42 AM on January 16, 2010 [2 favorites]

Third wheel, because if you're out with two people things are equally matched, but a third person has the potential to make things unequal/awkward.
posted by biochemist at 5:43 AM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

And by out with two people I meant it's just you and the other person.
posted by biochemist at 5:43 AM on January 16, 2010

Best answer: Both are valid.
posted by Electric Dragon at 5:44 AM on January 16, 2010 [5 favorites]

They're both right, though fifth wheels used to be considered useful
posted by drezdn at 5:46 AM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

But if you add a third wheel to a bicycle, it's got added balance and is extra-useful, right?

Wrong, unless you also lower the speed at which the cycle travels. Motorcycles with sidecars are less stable on the road, though they don't need kickstands when parked or a foot on the ground at stoplights. If a three-wheeled vehicle takes a corner fast enough to lift one wheel off the ground, it suddenly becomes a 2-wheeled vehicle with very different steering characteristics. That sudden change is very likely to cause a loss of control.

Anyhow, the 5th wheel makes more mechanical sense to me but "third" might seem better if you're talking about dating situations.
posted by jon1270 at 5:47 AM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

Electric Dragon beat me to it.
posted by drezdn at 5:48 AM on January 16, 2010

It's absurd for anyone to claim "third wheel" is "incorrect". These are idioms; it's purely a question of usage. Personally I've never heard "fifth wheel" and heard "third wheel" many, many times, but I'm not going to claim that that makes one right and the other wrong.

The logic that a fifth wheel "adds nothing extra" is at least arguable, since the idiom isn't normally used (again, in my experience) to mean something that adds nothing extra, but rather something that gets in the way.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 5:51 AM on January 16, 2010 [3 favorites]

I've always heard it as "third wheel." In my mind, two wheels would be all you need for a cart to be useful. A third wheel would be superfluous.

And, in my neck of the woods, a "fifth-wheel" refers to a type of travel-trailer that gets pulled behind a pickup truck via a semi-truck-style connector plate in the bed. So, around here, a "fifth wheel" is actually something useful.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:09 AM on January 16, 2010

Well, you can argue a distinction between correct derivation and correct usage. In the case of third/fifth wheel, the correct derivation is fifth wheel; but common usage has evolved to include third wheel as a correct option, even though it likely arose from a misuse of the original phrase.
posted by Billegible at 6:15 AM on January 16, 2010

Fifth wheel where I grew up has always been the terminology for an unwanted extra person. Even though I live in an area where Fifth Wheel can refer to a trailer, I haven't seen that cause any problems due to the context of the usage.
posted by Atreides at 6:32 AM on January 16, 2010

Mr Show says, "Third wheel".
posted by Gortuk at 6:48 AM on January 16, 2010

I believe the 'fifth wheel-ers" are mixing "third wheel" and "fifth business". (although i'm using Robertson Davies as the source of fifth business and he may have been playing a joke on me).

In any event, "third wheel" clearly makes far more sense than "fifth wheel"

And I agree. a 'fifth wheel' is a trailer attachment.
posted by jindc at 7:22 AM on January 16, 2010

Sars from Tomato Nation rabidly insists it's "fifth wheel."

I think "third wheel" is fine and makes perfect sense, and "fifth wheel" is sort of an obnoxious thing to get pedantic about.

I have always heard either number used as applied to the group being discussed. If there is one couple and an extra, they're the "third wheel." Two couples and an extra: "fifth wheel." I'm pretty sure I heard someone say they didn't want to be the "ninth wheel" once.

In social situations, it's far easier to feel like the odd man out when you're in a group of three, so "third wheel" seems more useful to me.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:25 AM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

Third wheel sounds to me like resulting from confusion with "third rail" which is a metaphor with an entirely different meaning. In other words it's a mixed-up metaphor, like "water under the dam," "horse of a different feather."

But "third wheel" seems to have evolved a meaning of its own: the third person on a date, where the other two are interested in each other and would prefer not having the third one around. That's very different from the typical meaning of "fifth wheel" as a useless appendage.
posted by beagle at 7:26 AM on January 16, 2010

Fifth wheel is the original idiom.
posted by Goofyy at 7:34 AM on January 16, 2010

In a particular group of my mathematician friends at a particular point in time in the past, most of us had significant others, except for one. The number of couples at any particular outing varied, so the one single friend was often referred to as being the 2n+1st (pronounced "two-en-plus-first") wheel.
posted by ErWenn at 7:41 AM on January 16, 2010 [4 favorites]

Those who are offering a definitive answer that one or the other is right would benefit from reading the usage links others have provided. The question has pretty much been answered: both.
posted by Miko at 7:45 AM on January 16, 2010

I believe the 'fifth wheel-ers" are mixing "third wheel" and "fifth business"

Fifth column may be there in the back of some people's minds too, I guess.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 7:51 AM on January 16, 2010

"Third wheel" also more accurately ties-in with what would seem to be the most common usage of the idiom...in reference to the extra person tagging-along with a couple (i.e. the roommate hanging-around the other roommate and his/her date)
posted by Thorzdad at 7:53 AM on January 16, 2010

But "third wheel" seems to have evolved a meaning of its own: the third person on a date, where the other two are interested in each other and would prefer not having the third one around. That's very different from the typical meaning of "fifth wheel" as a useless appendage.

Right. The third wheel (in this idiom) is not just useless, but actively infringing upon the other two.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:27 AM on January 16, 2010

Both make sense. Third wheel means an extra wheel on a motorcycle, which is useless (like a third person on a date), and fifth wheel means too many wheels on a car (like an outsider in a clique).

Language evolves, of course, based on usage. If people start saying sixth or seventh wheel, they'll also be valid, even if they make less sense. You can be pedantic as you want, but it's ultimately the Average Joe's usage who wins the battle, and not the language professors. Linguists write the history, rather than make it, so to speak.
posted by mccarty.tim at 10:26 AM on January 16, 2010

Third wheel seems to be no older than the 1970s, according to Electric Dragon's cite. Although it now sits with fifth wheel in the nest of used idiom, it is still an upstart cuckoo.

That said, in our romance deluged era, there is seemingly more obsession with odd man out, three's a crowd situations rather than with generic useless appendage situations.
posted by IndigoJones at 10:41 AM on January 16, 2010

Third wheel seems to be no older than the 1970s, according to Electric Dragon's cite.

The linked page says: "From a magazine called The Living Age: 'Am I not bringing you a box of champagne glasses, which, I am sure, you need about as much as a cart does a third wheel?' (1845)."
posted by ludwig_van at 11:15 AM on January 16, 2010 [2 favorites]

Third Wheel hasn't been used in that context before the 70's (beaten a few times above) and is likely a cross-confusion with the term "Three's Company."

Fifth Wheel has been used, and is present in phrasebooks and lexicons and dates back to the 1800s (with the intended meaning).

However, language evolves -- and English is particularly good at it. For those that get upset about language evolving and not using the "right one", take a listen to Stephen Fry's podcast on Language (Season 2, episode 3):
http://www.stephenfry.com/2008/12/22/series-2-episode-3-language/

So: If you want to be technically "correct," say Fifth Wheel.
If you want to be "hip" and "new," say Third Wheel.
posted by weasel at 11:23 AM on January 16, 2010

Yeah, I say third wheel usually. But I never thought of it in terms of adding wheels to *actual* vehicles, rather, just adding a number to an existing group of couples. So, I'd say fifth wheel if there are two couples and and extra person, seventh if there are three couples, etc. Kind of in jest when it got up to seventh, but I always thought of it in terms of how many people total ... strange.
posted by theRussian at 11:47 AM on January 16, 2010

There's two idioms.

Third wheel's the extra, unattached single with a couple; fifth wheel's the coupling used to attach a big trailer (which predates internal combustion).
posted by Rash at 12:59 PM on January 16, 2010

Rash, both "third wheel" and "fifth wheel" are used as idioms for "extra person who isn't really needed."

"Fifth wheel" was a lot more popular in the 20th century US, but I think "third wheel" has caught up in the past couple of decades--perhaps because more people are riding bicycles again?
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:31 PM on January 16, 2010

Best answer: "But if you add a third wheel to a bicycle, it's got added balance and is extra-useful, right? "

No. if you added a third wheel to my bicycle it would be completely unbalanced and useless. because it's a bicycle not a tricycle.
posted by swbarrett at 4:27 PM on January 16, 2010 [1 favorite]

There is a non-idiomatic "fifth wheel". It's the large tralier hitch plate mounted in the bed of truck that you use to tow a goose neck trailer. I've never heard anyone use "fifth wheel" in any sense other than this. I've always heard "third wheel" as the extra person. Just one more datatpoint.
posted by cosmicbandito at 5:47 PM on January 16, 2010

I usually wind up saying third wheel because the phrase almost invariably gets used to describe a situation where a romantic encounter is made awkward or ruined by the addition of a third person, and because you can kinda-sorta make the argument that a third wheel would be useless on a bike.

But rationally, reasonably, sensibly, I know in my deepest heart-of-hearts it should be fifth wheel.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:14 PM on January 16, 2010

It results from confusion with third leg, one element of a romantic encounter when it is not interrupted or prevented by the presence of a fifth wheel.
posted by troybob at 6:58 PM on January 16, 2010

I say fifth wheel because I have three wives. Third wheel makes no sense, especially in my case.

KIDDING, obviously. The idiom is 5th wheel, but I use it wrong too. I say 3rd Wheel, and until this moment, I never thought about how silly that is.
posted by 2oh1 at 10:13 PM on January 16, 2010

Best answer: It depends on the context. "Third wheel" is basically a variation of "three's a crowd," ie, the single person having to endure company with a couple (or vice versa). I don't think anyone would use "Fifth wheel" in that sort of context.

Now, if it were a single person with two (or more?) couples, I think you'd have to use "Fifth wheel" just because it's more, well, logical and literal.

I'm sure it should be "fifth," and it's the more traditional, general term. But I guess with the first example I give, it just happened to work out that adding a third wheel to a two-wheeler is just as extraneous as a fifth wheel to a four-wheeler, so "third wheel" stuck.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 12:50 AM on January 17, 2010

I always thought "third wheel" was a joke. It's funny to mangle expressions; it's even funnier when the mangling inverts the meaning. This thread's beanplating aside, it's pretty simple. A third wheel is useful; it makes an unstable platform stable. A fifth wheel adds nothing - THAT'S THE POINT.

Going from a couple to three socially is awkward and deserves a phrase, but repurposing this one is so lazy that it would make me officially disappointed with our vernacular wordsmiths. Seriously, the world is filled with things that would fit in that expression better than wheels.
posted by bjrubble at 2:15 AM on January 17, 2010

This thread's beanplating aside, it's pretty simple.

Well, except that this thread's "beanplating" demonstrates that lots of people disagree, and when we're talking about idioms, what people think is really all that matters. It's fascinating in this thread (and others on AskMe) to see people, time and again, using the argument that it's just obvious that one is right and the other wrong, because they happen to have an explanation that would make one right and the other wrong.

You can, as others have mentioned, talk instead about the history of the phrase, if you believe that the original usage of a term is automatically the right one. But a) that seems to me a highly questionable assumption, and b) ludwig_van provides a reference to "third wheel" meaning "unnecessary appendage" from 1845, so that doesn't seem to settle things any more in favor of the fifth-wheel proponents...
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 7:25 AM on January 17, 2010 [1 favorite]

when we're talking about idioms, what people think is really all that matters.

Neither one is "right" if both are in common parlance. Yet one certainly predates the other and later became conflated/confused with the other. I'm not arguing the original usage is 'right' but that it's been well argued that both have been in use a long time, and have both been influenced by historical conditions. Talking about the history of the phrase doesn't prove rightness of one over the other, but it does illuminate the means by which both became, in some way, "right."
posted by Miko at 8:30 AM on January 17, 2010

Yet one certainly predates the other

Oh absolutely. I really am guilty of beanplating now, but I just wanted to push back against this idea that "fifth wheel" is either obvious or necessarily earliest, since Electric Dragon's excellent link suggests a) that fifth wheels were considered useful, not useless, in many quarters and b) that the earliest decisively idiomatic usage of either term that the author of that piece could find was for "third wheel", in 1845.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 10:08 AM on January 17, 2010

It's the kind of metaphor that (imo) people are likely to come up with independently on different occasions. Perhaps it's a form of linguistic convergent evolution: there's a "niche" in the language for a wheel based idiom that means "superfluous, useless", and its form will depend on the kind of vehicle being thought of - bicycles/two wheeled carts/four wheeled carriages/cars.

Maybe if Reliant Robins had caught on in a big way, it would have become "fourth wheel".
posted by Electric Dragon at 6:19 AM on January 18, 2010