Freedom comes from limiting myself?!
January 15, 2010 6:07 AM Subscribe
I need help finding Christian (preferably Catholic) sources for the idea that freedom comes from submission to the will of God.
The word "freedom" (or "free") is essential, but the latter part can be phrased in a number of ways: submission to the will of God, renunciation of personal desires, etc. What I'm looking for is a Catholic (or western Christian) equivalent for the following statement from the Encyclopedia Britannica article on Eastern Orthodoxy: "Man is truly free only when he is in communion with God; otherwise he is only a slave to his body or to the world." My goal is to find a quote that suggests that true freedom comes from what seems to be a limitation--living according to God's will and giving up one's personal freedom (as understood in a secular sense).
I'd prefer statements from more authoritative sources, if possible. A quote from an official Catholic document, like the Catechism, or from one of the doctors of the Church, would be more useful than a quote from a historically minor church official or theologian.
Conciseness would be nice, but is not necessary. Anything up to paragraph-length would be fine for my purposes.
The word "freedom" (or "free") is essential, but the latter part can be phrased in a number of ways: submission to the will of God, renunciation of personal desires, etc. What I'm looking for is a Catholic (or western Christian) equivalent for the following statement from the Encyclopedia Britannica article on Eastern Orthodoxy: "Man is truly free only when he is in communion with God; otherwise he is only a slave to his body or to the world." My goal is to find a quote that suggests that true freedom comes from what seems to be a limitation--living according to God's will and giving up one's personal freedom (as understood in a secular sense).
I'd prefer statements from more authoritative sources, if possible. A quote from an official Catholic document, like the Catechism, or from one of the doctors of the Church, would be more useful than a quote from a historically minor church official or theologian.
Conciseness would be nice, but is not necessary. Anything up to paragraph-length would be fine for my purposes.
Not specifically Catholic, but there's lots on this theme in the Bible itself. The best known would be "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me... For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." ie the apparently heavy burden the Christian is asked to carry is actually freeing.
posted by sleepy boy at 6:58 AM on January 15, 2010
posted by sleepy boy at 6:58 AM on January 15, 2010
Not a specific reference, but my immediate thought is that you'd probably find a lot of Bible verses along these lines referenced by Calvinist theologians. Those verses would almost certainly also be in the Catholic bible.
posted by limeonaire at 7:18 AM on January 15, 2010
posted by limeonaire at 7:18 AM on January 15, 2010
I think this gets close to what you want:
"Now in spiritual things there is a twofold servitude and a twofold freedom: for there is the servitude of sin and the servitude of justice; and there is likewise a twofold freedom, from sin, and from justice, as appears from the words of the Apostle (Rom. 6:20, 22), "When you were the servants of sin, you were free men to justice . . . but now being made free from sin," you are . . . "become servants to God."
"Now the servitude of sin or justice consists in being inclined to evil by a habit of sin, or inclined to good by a habit of justice: and in like manner freedom from sin is not to be overcome by the inclination to sin, and freedom from justice is not to be held back from evil for the love of justice. Nevertheless, since man, by his natural reason, is inclined to justice, while sin is contrary to natural reason, it follows that freedom from sin is true freedom which is united to the servitude of justice, since they both incline man to that which is becoming to him. In like manner true servitude is the servitude of sin, which is connected with freedom from justice, because man is thereby hindered from attaining that which is proper to him. That a man become the servant of justice or sin results from his efforts, as the Apostle declares (Rom. 6:16): "To whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice." Now in every human effort we can distinguish a beginning, a middle, and a term; and consequently the state of spiritual servitude and freedom is differentiated according to these things, namely, the beginning---to which pertains the state of beginners---the middle, to which pertains the state of the proficient---and the term, to which belongs the state of the perfect."
Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologia
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:25 AM on January 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Now in spiritual things there is a twofold servitude and a twofold freedom: for there is the servitude of sin and the servitude of justice; and there is likewise a twofold freedom, from sin, and from justice, as appears from the words of the Apostle (Rom. 6:20, 22), "When you were the servants of sin, you were free men to justice . . . but now being made free from sin," you are . . . "become servants to God."
"Now the servitude of sin or justice consists in being inclined to evil by a habit of sin, or inclined to good by a habit of justice: and in like manner freedom from sin is not to be overcome by the inclination to sin, and freedom from justice is not to be held back from evil for the love of justice. Nevertheless, since man, by his natural reason, is inclined to justice, while sin is contrary to natural reason, it follows that freedom from sin is true freedom which is united to the servitude of justice, since they both incline man to that which is becoming to him. In like manner true servitude is the servitude of sin, which is connected with freedom from justice, because man is thereby hindered from attaining that which is proper to him. That a man become the servant of justice or sin results from his efforts, as the Apostle declares (Rom. 6:16): "To whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice." Now in every human effort we can distinguish a beginning, a middle, and a term; and consequently the state of spiritual servitude and freedom is differentiated according to these things, namely, the beginning---to which pertains the state of beginners---the middle, to which pertains the state of the proficient---and the term, to which belongs the state of the perfect."
Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologia
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:25 AM on January 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
For a specifically Catholic explanation, although not particularly authoritative, here is an explanation from a columnist from the Catholic exchange.
The Catechism isn't terribly concise, but here are some relevant passages
"...Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason..."
"...Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom...
Definition of Freedom - probably closest to what you're looking for
"The practice of the moral life animated by charity gives to the Christian the spiritual freedom of the children of God..."
Not a specific reference, but my immediate thought is that you'd probably find a lot of Bible verses along these lines referenced by Calvinist theologians. Those verses would almost certainly also be in the Catholic bible.
The Catholic Bible includes everything in the Protestant version, plus seven OT books that are excluded by Protestants (the Apocrypha). Translations and organization are different, but the content is all there.
posted by Dojie at 8:09 AM on January 15, 2010
The Catechism isn't terribly concise, but here are some relevant passages
"...Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason..."
"...Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom...
Definition of Freedom - probably closest to what you're looking for
"The practice of the moral life animated by charity gives to the Christian the spiritual freedom of the children of God..."
Not a specific reference, but my immediate thought is that you'd probably find a lot of Bible verses along these lines referenced by Calvinist theologians. Those verses would almost certainly also be in the Catholic bible.
The Catholic Bible includes everything in the Protestant version, plus seven OT books that are excluded by Protestants (the Apocrypha). Translations and organization are different, but the content is all there.
posted by Dojie at 8:09 AM on January 15, 2010
The only problem with searching thru the "canonical" Calvinist theologians is their skewed belief in pre-destination. Though they believe fully in the free will of man and his inherent right to choose, they ultimately contradict themselves with their believe in pre-destination.
posted by damiano99 at 8:14 AM on January 15, 2010
posted by damiano99 at 8:14 AM on January 15, 2010
Luther has a lot to say about this -- I think The Bondage of the Will would be a good place to start with Luther.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:23 AM on January 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:23 AM on January 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
The Catholic Bible includes everything in the Protestant version, plus seven OT books that are excluded by Protestants (the Apocrypha). Translations and organization are different, but the content is all there.
Thanks for the clarification, Dojie. I thought so; I just hedged 'cause I didn't have both on me to compare, and couldn't remember exactly what all was considered canon in Catholicism these days. Alas, I left my Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church at work!
posted by limeonaire at 9:00 AM on January 15, 2010
Thanks for the clarification, Dojie. I thought so; I just hedged 'cause I didn't have both on me to compare, and couldn't remember exactly what all was considered canon in Catholicism these days. Alas, I left my Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church at work!
posted by limeonaire at 9:00 AM on January 15, 2010
The only problem with searching thru the "canonical" Calvinist theologians is their skewed belief in pre-destination. Though they believe fully in the free will of man and his inherent right to choose, they ultimately contradict themselves with their believe in pre-destination.
That's a common misunderstanding of predestination. Calvinist predestination works like this: People have freewill. Because God exists outside of time, God already knows all decisions all people will make before they make them, and has known these things since the beginning of time. God has no control over these decisions, but being all knowing and outside of time can't help but know the results. So your future is predetermined in the sense that outside of time God already knows what it is, but to a person within time it is not predetermined in any way that has meaning for us.
In other words, Calvinists are all about freewill.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:00 AM on January 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
That's a common misunderstanding of predestination. Calvinist predestination works like this: People have freewill. Because God exists outside of time, God already knows all decisions all people will make before they make them, and has known these things since the beginning of time. God has no control over these decisions, but being all knowing and outside of time can't help but know the results. So your future is predetermined in the sense that outside of time God already knows what it is, but to a person within time it is not predetermined in any way that has meaning for us.
In other words, Calvinists are all about freewill.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:00 AM on January 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
John Dalberg-Acton (more commonly known as Lord Acton) was an influential Roman Catholic who said this: "Liberty is not the power of doing what we like, but the right to do what we ought." The idea being that liberty, properly construed, is the freedom to becoming virtuous (which is necessarily connected to obedience to the higher good, or God).
The Acton Institute is a religious organization (with Catholic origins) that attempts to reconcile notions of a free market, liberty, and personal responsibility to the greater good, based on a lot of Acton's thoughts and writings.
posted by SpacemanStix at 9:03 AM on January 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
The Acton Institute is a religious organization (with Catholic origins) that attempts to reconcile notions of a free market, liberty, and personal responsibility to the greater good, based on a lot of Acton's thoughts and writings.
posted by SpacemanStix at 9:03 AM on January 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
From the Catechism:
posted by fhangler at 9:05 AM on January 15, 2010
The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world.If I remember correctly, in The Truth of Catholicism George Weigel references the following analogy, which I don't think is his own but which may come from a twentieth-century theologian (sorry I can't be more specific!). We might call "freedom" the ability to sit at a piano and press any keys we want, in any order we want. But without practice, our freedom is limited; we would only be able to produce noise or simple melodies. Disciplined, lengthy practice is, perhaps, onerous, but eventually we can achieve the more complete freedom to play complex and beautiful pieces that we never could have otherwise. So too, Christians believe that discipline in our own lives -- not wasting time on sinful pursuits harmful to ourselves or others -- in fact opens up possibilities to apply our talents freely and constructively.
posted by fhangler at 9:05 AM on January 15, 2010
Found the reference for you, from a book by Fr Servais Pinckaers, The Sources of Christian Ethics.
posted by fhangler at 9:08 AM on January 15, 2010
posted by fhangler at 9:08 AM on January 15, 2010
hydropsyche - That is a misunderstanding of Calvinistic predestination. Stating that, "God has no control over these decisions" means that God is not God. How could a sovereign God not have control over the decisions his own creatures make?
To the OP's question. Romans chapter 6 is entirely about this topic: No longer being a slave to sin, but a slave to God - thus being free from the condemnation of the law.
And of course, Romans 8 describes the epitome of this freedom.
posted by yoyoceramic at 9:20 AM on January 15, 2010
To the OP's question. Romans chapter 6 is entirely about this topic: No longer being a slave to sin, but a slave to God - thus being free from the condemnation of the law.
And of course, Romans 8 describes the epitome of this freedom.
posted by yoyoceramic at 9:20 AM on January 15, 2010
"In particular, following the line marked out by the Church’s social doctrine, what gives life to Christian commitment in politics is the defense of that highest good which is freedom, a necessary condition so that man can seek adequate answers to what his heart desires and his needs demand."
From the Communion and Liberation website. http://www.clonline.org/FirstPage.htm
The entire movement ( a movement within the Catholic Church. Pope Benedict is a memeber) is based on making a judgment about your life. Freedom is a huge piece of this. It synthesizes the conviction that the Christian event, lived in communion, is the foundation of the authentic liberation of man.
St. Paul’s advice: “Test everything; retain what is good,” remains for CL the best definition of cultural work: everything can be encountered and compared using the criterion of the clarity about man brought by the Christian revelation, and on the basis of this criterion, we can retain and give value to what is true and good in everything.
This is where the freedom comes in.
posted by shaarog at 9:26 AM on January 15, 2010
From the Communion and Liberation website. http://www.clonline.org/FirstPage.htm
The entire movement ( a movement within the Catholic Church. Pope Benedict is a memeber) is based on making a judgment about your life. Freedom is a huge piece of this. It synthesizes the conviction that the Christian event, lived in communion, is the foundation of the authentic liberation of man.
St. Paul’s advice: “Test everything; retain what is good,” remains for CL the best definition of cultural work: everything can be encountered and compared using the criterion of the clarity about man brought by the Christian revelation, and on the basis of this criterion, we can retain and give value to what is true and good in everything.
This is where the freedom comes in.
posted by shaarog at 9:26 AM on January 15, 2010
I think direct quotations of Scripture aren't useful here, unless you could find a specific twist in an old Latin version of the Bible that emphasized this issue in a certain way in comparison to the Greek Orthodox version (A task that would probably eat up half your life).
The first chapter in book nine of Saint Augustine's Confessions discusses this very issue, albeit not in an entirely elegant way. But considering Augustine's importance, and the importance of Confessions itself in shaping Catholic doctrine, I'd check it out.
Here is a link to a translation of the relevant passage, albeit a lousy translation IMO. If I were you I'd try to find a more modern version (perhaps Henry Chadwick's from the Oxford World's Classics edition).
You might also want to read the essay "Augustine on Freedom and God" from the Saint Anselm Journal. You can find the link to the pdf here, around the middle of the page. Note especially the argument beginning in the last paragraph on page 62, which is pretty much examining this exact issue.
posted by hiteleven at 9:29 AM on January 15, 2010
The first chapter in book nine of Saint Augustine's Confessions discusses this very issue, albeit not in an entirely elegant way. But considering Augustine's importance, and the importance of Confessions itself in shaping Catholic doctrine, I'd check it out.
Here is a link to a translation of the relevant passage, albeit a lousy translation IMO. If I were you I'd try to find a more modern version (perhaps Henry Chadwick's from the Oxford World's Classics edition).
You might also want to read the essay "Augustine on Freedom and God" from the Saint Anselm Journal. You can find the link to the pdf here, around the middle of the page. Note especially the argument beginning in the last paragraph on page 62, which is pretty much examining this exact issue.
posted by hiteleven at 9:29 AM on January 15, 2010
Stating that, "God has no control over these decisions" means that God is not God. How could a sovereign God not have control over the decisions his own creatures make?
That's not an answerable question. If you can't tell me how God has control over the decisions his creatures make, I can't tell you how he could not have control over them. Either statement is an assumption--after all, what is the mechanism by which God exerts power? Are there laws of nature/existence that God sees fit to follow? The concept of God is an abstraction; the reality, no matter what it may be, is far enough outside of our frame of reference as to be indescribable.
posted by Phyltre at 9:36 AM on January 15, 2010
That's not an answerable question. If you can't tell me how God has control over the decisions his creatures make, I can't tell you how he could not have control over them. Either statement is an assumption--after all, what is the mechanism by which God exerts power? Are there laws of nature/existence that God sees fit to follow? The concept of God is an abstraction; the reality, no matter what it may be, is far enough outside of our frame of reference as to be indescribable.
posted by Phyltre at 9:36 AM on January 15, 2010
damiano99, let's give at least a little credit to one of the most influential and enduring intellectual traditions in Western history, shall we?
But hydropsyche, what you describe is not the Reformed/Calvinistic doctrine of predestination, but the Arminian/Semi-Pelagian doctrine of foreknowledge, which is not the same thing. The Reformed tradition has always been pretty adamant that God actually determines everything which shall come to pass. Arminius went the foreknowledge route because he didn't like that, ironically moving himself and his followers closer to Rome rather than farther away, which is what he intended. Here's a canonical statement of the Reformed position.
The reason this isn't a problem has a lot to do with the fact that the Reformed tradition has been pretty ambivalent about the philosophical concept of free will. They've got a solution, but not one which makes them terribly popular, and not one which preserves the libertarian, non-contingent, rigorous concept of free will that most contemporary people believe.
posted by valkyryn at 9:43 AM on January 15, 2010
But hydropsyche, what you describe is not the Reformed/Calvinistic doctrine of predestination, but the Arminian/Semi-Pelagian doctrine of foreknowledge, which is not the same thing. The Reformed tradition has always been pretty adamant that God actually determines everything which shall come to pass. Arminius went the foreknowledge route because he didn't like that, ironically moving himself and his followers closer to Rome rather than farther away, which is what he intended. Here's a canonical statement of the Reformed position.
The reason this isn't a problem has a lot to do with the fact that the Reformed tradition has been pretty ambivalent about the philosophical concept of free will. They've got a solution, but not one which makes them terribly popular, and not one which preserves the libertarian, non-contingent, rigorous concept of free will that most contemporary people believe.
posted by valkyryn at 9:43 AM on January 15, 2010
I think the quote supplied by Pater Aletheias' answers your question. As far as I know, there's no real conflict between the Orthodox and Catholic churches on this issue, but I'd like to make an addition since the reference came from an entry on Orthodoxy where it tends to come up more in the context of spiritual guidance than dogma.
In my reading, the relationship between freedom and submission to God is expressed differently than in it is in your post. Instead of freedom developing from submission to God, the Church Fathers teach that freedom from the passions brings one closer to God. Burhanistan's advice to search the Philokalia is good, but I would recommend looking for 'apatheia' or 'detachment' instead of 'freedom'. Most of the discussion in the Philokalia of demons of which there is quite a bit, is referring to the passions.
posted by BigSky at 9:48 AM on January 15, 2010
In my reading, the relationship between freedom and submission to God is expressed differently than in it is in your post. Instead of freedom developing from submission to God, the Church Fathers teach that freedom from the passions brings one closer to God. Burhanistan's advice to search the Philokalia is good, but I would recommend looking for 'apatheia' or 'detachment' instead of 'freedom'. Most of the discussion in the Philokalia of demons of which there is quite a bit, is referring to the passions.
posted by BigSky at 9:48 AM on January 15, 2010
The free will argument is irrelevant here.
Freedom from the perspective of salvation (in pretty much every version of the Christian faith) is freedom of the mind from worldly concerns. We are a "slave" to our secular concerns and possessions. Salvation supposedly allows our minds to be loosened from such burdens, giving it absolute freedom to bask in God's glory...or something like that.
The freedom to choose this or that thing in one's secular life is not important to the argument that the OP is trying to make here.
posted by hiteleven at 9:51 AM on January 15, 2010
Freedom from the perspective of salvation (in pretty much every version of the Christian faith) is freedom of the mind from worldly concerns. We are a "slave" to our secular concerns and possessions. Salvation supposedly allows our minds to be loosened from such burdens, giving it absolute freedom to bask in God's glory...or something like that.
The freedom to choose this or that thing in one's secular life is not important to the argument that the OP is trying to make here.
posted by hiteleven at 9:51 AM on January 15, 2010
hiteleven, I think we are muddying the waters by asserting conceptual definitions. The OP's question doesn't seem particularly broad but it indirectly references almost the entire concept of the "physics" of the world. OP wants "to find a quote that suggests that true freedom comes from what seems to be a limitation" which requires very particular definitions of "true freedom", "personal freedom," and "living according to God's will," which are all terms the OP used. I suspect those are not concepts we all share conformative definitions of.
Which is why we ended up with a discussion about free will--by posting replies we are displaying subscriptions to various definitions of those terms.
posted by Phyltre at 10:09 AM on January 15, 2010
Which is why we ended up with a discussion about free will--by posting replies we are displaying subscriptions to various definitions of those terms.
posted by Phyltre at 10:09 AM on January 15, 2010
Augustine's Enchiridion (also known as the Handbook on Faith, Hope and Love), chapter 9, offers a compact summary of the idea that freedom consists in submission to God:
He serves freely who freely does the will of his master. Accordingly he who is slave to sin is free to sin. But thereafter he will not be free to do right unless he is delivered from the bondage of sin and begins to be the servant of righteousness. This, then, is true liberty: the joy that comes in doing what is right. At the same time, it is also devoted service in obedience to righteous precept.
This very Augustinian idea is also central to Luther's theology; see the Lectures on Romans for an example:
For this its bondage shall become its liberty, just as we must say of the righteous that they are transferred from the bondage of sin into the bondage of righteousness, or, rather, into the liberty of righteousness. For to be in bondage to God means to rule like a king.
It also crops up in Isaiah Berlin's famous essay 'Two Concepts of Liberty' where he regards it as paradigmatic of positive liberty, i.e. the idea that liberty involves acting in a particular way or internalising a particular set of values.
posted by verstegan at 10:19 AM on January 15, 2010
He serves freely who freely does the will of his master. Accordingly he who is slave to sin is free to sin. But thereafter he will not be free to do right unless he is delivered from the bondage of sin and begins to be the servant of righteousness. This, then, is true liberty: the joy that comes in doing what is right. At the same time, it is also devoted service in obedience to righteous precept.
This very Augustinian idea is also central to Luther's theology; see the Lectures on Romans for an example:
For this its bondage shall become its liberty, just as we must say of the righteous that they are transferred from the bondage of sin into the bondage of righteousness, or, rather, into the liberty of righteousness. For to be in bondage to God means to rule like a king.
It also crops up in Isaiah Berlin's famous essay 'Two Concepts of Liberty' where he regards it as paradigmatic of positive liberty, i.e. the idea that liberty involves acting in a particular way or internalising a particular set of values.
posted by verstegan at 10:19 AM on January 15, 2010
"Love God and do what you will." -- St. Augustine of Hippo
posted by cross_impact at 10:23 AM on January 15, 2010
posted by cross_impact at 10:23 AM on January 15, 2010
I'm a Reformed Christian. Here is an article that discusses the issue of freedom, partly based on verses from 2nd Corinthians. An excerpt:
“For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all ... that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised” (2 Cor. 5:14–15; emphasis mine).
In the ten words that I have highlighted, Paul makes a thunderous observation about how sin fundamentally alters every person’s approach to life. I was meant to live for something vastly bigger than myself. I was created to live for God — His kingdom and His glory. I was designed to get my identity, meaning and purpose, and my inner sense of well-being vertically. I was made to get my reason for doing what I am doing and my rest in the middle of doing it from God. But sin causes every one of us to live for ourselves, that is, to shrink our lives to the size of our lives. Sin causes us to reduce the field of our dreams and concerns down to our wants, our needs, and our feelings. Sin makes us scarily self-focused, self-absorbed, and self-motivated.
posted by davcoo at 11:18 AM on January 15, 2010
“For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all ... that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised” (2 Cor. 5:14–15; emphasis mine).
In the ten words that I have highlighted, Paul makes a thunderous observation about how sin fundamentally alters every person’s approach to life. I was meant to live for something vastly bigger than myself. I was created to live for God — His kingdom and His glory. I was designed to get my identity, meaning and purpose, and my inner sense of well-being vertically. I was made to get my reason for doing what I am doing and my rest in the middle of doing it from God. But sin causes every one of us to live for ourselves, that is, to shrink our lives to the size of our lives. Sin causes us to reduce the field of our dreams and concerns down to our wants, our needs, and our feelings. Sin makes us scarily self-focused, self-absorbed, and self-motivated.
posted by davcoo at 11:18 AM on January 15, 2010
I think verstegan has it. Really, Augustine is probably the person to go to here because he was a foundational writer of Catholic doctrine (and Luther, who was in many ways a neo-Augstinian, is worth a look as well).
Really, you could do a rough Google search of "Augustine freedom" or "Augustine freedom servitude" and find some good stuff, since most of his works are translated on-line (though you'd probably want to get to a more modern translation in the end).
Phyltre -- I see your point. I suppose one's own concerns about this issue change one's perception of the question, leading to all sorts of theological and philosophical debates.
posted by hiteleven at 11:45 AM on January 15, 2010
Really, you could do a rough Google search of "Augustine freedom" or "Augustine freedom servitude" and find some good stuff, since most of his works are translated on-line (though you'd probably want to get to a more modern translation in the end).
Phyltre -- I see your point. I suppose one's own concerns about this issue change one's perception of the question, leading to all sorts of theological and philosophical debates.
posted by hiteleven at 11:45 AM on January 15, 2010
The wages of Sin are death.
The wages have been paid, to Jesus the Christ.
Without wages we are Free.
posted by carlh at 5:07 PM on January 15, 2010
The wages have been paid, to Jesus the Christ.
Without wages we are Free.
posted by carlh at 5:07 PM on January 15, 2010
My catholic education wasn't the best in the world, but I don't remember a whole lot about the submission to god stuff. That's more of a Protestant/Baptist/Methodist kind of thing.
Which begs the question, do you want the catholic answer, or the non-catholic answer? There are a lot of deep differences in the teachings.
But generally, the Catholic idea of submission to god is more like what you quote about eastern orthodoxy, in that being in communion (not literally, but more like in a state of grace) with god (and jesus and the holy spirit- the trinity) is the key to salvation and everlasting life and such.
But the Nicene Creed is (to me) the crux of what (at least American) Catholicism is about:
And the Lord's Prayer:
In other words, the catholic answer to your question is that if you believe (slightly different from the "accept" or "submit" used in other faiths) in all that, and try to be a good person, and acknowledge our sins and ask for forgiveness, we are Straight with God.
(As an aside, I never understood the submission to god thing. If god is such a great guy, why would he want everyone submitting to him? It seems like fear rather than love. Which is what I thought it was supposed to be about.... Jesus came down, and he had this message that was so powerful and beautiful that people (in theory) want to believe it. People believe in it, they go out and live good lives, and they tell other people about it. Not like recruiters, but just living by example.
Anyone who tells you to submit to god is selling you something. End of rant.)
posted by gjc at 6:31 PM on January 15, 2010
Which begs the question, do you want the catholic answer, or the non-catholic answer? There are a lot of deep differences in the teachings.
But generally, the Catholic idea of submission to god is more like what you quote about eastern orthodoxy, in that being in communion (not literally, but more like in a state of grace) with god (and jesus and the holy spirit- the trinity) is the key to salvation and everlasting life and such.
But the Nicene Creed is (to me) the crux of what (at least American) Catholicism is about:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.Just a statement of beliefs.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made.
For us men, and for our salvation, he came down from heaven by the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
And the Lord's Prayer:
Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil.Basically says to god "we believe in you" and acknowleges that god made everything, and will provide everything we need. And asks god to forgive us when we sin, and tells god that we will try our best to forgive others too.
In other words, the catholic answer to your question is that if you believe (slightly different from the "accept" or "submit" used in other faiths) in all that, and try to be a good person, and acknowledge our sins and ask for forgiveness, we are Straight with God.
(As an aside, I never understood the submission to god thing. If god is such a great guy, why would he want everyone submitting to him? It seems like fear rather than love. Which is what I thought it was supposed to be about.... Jesus came down, and he had this message that was so powerful and beautiful that people (in theory) want to believe it. People believe in it, they go out and live good lives, and they tell other people about it. Not like recruiters, but just living by example.
Anyone who tells you to submit to god is selling you something. End of rant.)
posted by gjc at 6:31 PM on January 15, 2010
Anyone who tells you to submit to god is selling you something.
Maybe, gjc. But it's not a bad thing they're selling.
Catholics believe that God is Love. Self-less, self-giving Love. You were created with God in you and Love is your true purpose and ultimate satisfaction. All other ego-driven pursuits will ultimately not satisfy.
That's how St. Augustine could say "Love God and do what you will." If you are always selfless and loving , sinful decisions are impossible.
St. Thomas Aquinas would refer to Love, or God, as the "Telos" or ultimate end, of all humanity. "Submitting to God" means fulfilling your ultimate purpose and meaning.
So "Submitting to God" means to pursue that kind of Love within you and forsake the pretensions of your own ego, which will only lead you astray. If they're selling you something, then they're selling you "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
posted by cross_impact at 8:35 AM on January 21, 2010
Maybe, gjc. But it's not a bad thing they're selling.
Catholics believe that God is Love. Self-less, self-giving Love. You were created with God in you and Love is your true purpose and ultimate satisfaction. All other ego-driven pursuits will ultimately not satisfy.
That's how St. Augustine could say "Love God and do what you will." If you are always selfless and loving , sinful decisions are impossible.
St. Thomas Aquinas would refer to Love, or God, as the "Telos" or ultimate end, of all humanity. "Submitting to God" means fulfilling your ultimate purpose and meaning.
So "Submitting to God" means to pursue that kind of Love within you and forsake the pretensions of your own ego, which will only lead you astray. If they're selling you something, then they're selling you "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
posted by cross_impact at 8:35 AM on January 21, 2010
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Sorry I don't have any other particularly Catholic sources (although the above is from the Douay).
posted by General Malaise at 6:30 AM on January 15, 2010