How Did Anti-French Sentiment Start in the U.S.?
January 20, 2005 11:50 AM Subscribe
Un peu de perspective? I'm looking for historical/cultural background for the popular anti-french sentiment in the US. I imagine it began somewhere between when the French helped the US oust the British, and the current Iraq Feud. What's the story(ies)?
Yeah, we Americans have famously short memories. Too short to remember the French bailing us out of our revolution, but not short enough to forget bailing them out in WWII. Mix in the current French opposition to the Iraq invasion.
This is all exacerbated by anti-American sentiment in France. They resent pretty much everything about America, mostly due to our current culture, economic and political dominance of the world. For them, it's exemplified in the "Americanization" of their language, which they've gone so far as to legislate against.
The French regard us as crass upstarts, lacking their sense of history and heritage, and unworthy of the mantle we've assumed. We regard the French as a bunch of snobby fuddy duddies.
Personally, I'd take their culture over ours any day.
posted by mkultra at 11:58 AM on January 20, 2005
This is all exacerbated by anti-American sentiment in France. They resent pretty much everything about America, mostly due to our current culture, economic and political dominance of the world. For them, it's exemplified in the "Americanization" of their language, which they've gone so far as to legislate against.
The French regard us as crass upstarts, lacking their sense of history and heritage, and unworthy of the mantle we've assumed. We regard the French as a bunch of snobby fuddy duddies.
Personally, I'd take their culture over ours any day.
posted by mkultra at 11:58 AM on January 20, 2005
There's new book on just this subject: Our Oldest Enemy : A History of America's Disastrous Relationship with France, published last October. Haven't read it yet, but it looks like it would answer your question in depth.
posted by Asparagirl at 12:01 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by Asparagirl at 12:01 PM on January 20, 2005
The first time I remember encountering any "those damn French!" sentiment was after France refused to let US bombers flying over its territory for the strike on Libya in 1986. I'm sure the fact that in retaliation an American hostage was killed while two French hostages were released afterwards didn't help matters. Obviously not the beginning of the feud, but probably a fairly major modern example.
posted by Cyrano at 12:06 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by Cyrano at 12:06 PM on January 20, 2005
Mark Twain enjoyed a little French bashing...
And more recently, I believe Groundskeeper Willy enjoyed it as well.
posted by theFlyingSquirrel at 12:10 PM on January 20, 2005
And more recently, I believe Groundskeeper Willy enjoyed it as well.
posted by theFlyingSquirrel at 12:10 PM on January 20, 2005
Also, I think they get a (totally unfair) reputation for being wussies for their quick defeat by the Germans in 1940. And Americans don't like wussies.
posted by Cyrano at 12:12 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by Cyrano at 12:12 PM on January 20, 2005
Three simple words: Charles De Gaulle. In particular see "The Free French Forces" and "The Politics of Grandeur".
For starters, I don't think the US appreciated France dropping out of NATO and pointing ICBM's at Washington.
posted by loquax at 12:16 PM on January 20, 2005
For starters, I don't think the US appreciated France dropping out of NATO and pointing ICBM's at Washington.
posted by loquax at 12:16 PM on January 20, 2005
Here's something on the XYZ affair. There is also disdain of the French inherited from Britain. The US has never really let France off the hook for being an arrogant high-handed colonialist world power back when that was all the rage in Europe.
posted by fleacircus at 12:22 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by fleacircus at 12:22 PM on January 20, 2005
On the flip side: this article on Franco-American relations is dated (1995) but offers an excellent overview of anti-americanism in France and has a nice bibliography as well.
posted by safetyfork at 12:30 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by safetyfork at 12:30 PM on January 20, 2005
XYZ affair, don't any of you remember your Adams (1) presidency.
posted by jmgorman at 1:05 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by jmgorman at 1:05 PM on January 20, 2005
I think it came out before it was fully digested.
posted by fleacircus at 1:22 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by fleacircus at 1:22 PM on January 20, 2005
they get a (totally unfair) reputation for being wussies for their quick defeat by the Germans in 1940.
Unfair because the French put up with the German aggression for 2.5 years before Americans joined the European war.
posted by Mo Nickels at 2:06 PM on January 20, 2005
Unfair because the French put up with the German aggression for 2.5 years before Americans joined the European war.
posted by Mo Nickels at 2:06 PM on January 20, 2005
I would have to disagree with mkultra... I've been in France for the last few months and I've been looking around for this anti-American sentiment everyone has talked about and it's really not as pervasive as people say it is.
In fact, most French people I've talked to don't really mind Americans-- it's moreso the American government that gets their goat. Everyone, however, does seem to unanimously detest Bush, even the very conservative family I'm staying with can't imagine why he was elected. Even stranger is the unfathomable mentioning of God in almost every political speech. France has been secular (by law) since 1905 and this kind of religiosity is unheard of here.
What I noticed most strongly in terms of relations with America is the love-hate nature of of the French toward American culture. As you say, there's legislation against the introduction of English words in France. But why are there English words in French? Well because it's very chic to throw in little phrases like "Ow are you doing!?" or "bye-bye." What more, advertisers capitalize on this by putting phrases or even whole English sentences into advertising.
It's a love-hate relationship, because at the same times, linguistic and political authorities (such as l'Académie française) are very protective as the French language as a symbol of its power (see: Africa).
posted by themadjuggler at 2:51 PM on January 20, 2005
In fact, most French people I've talked to don't really mind Americans-- it's moreso the American government that gets their goat. Everyone, however, does seem to unanimously detest Bush, even the very conservative family I'm staying with can't imagine why he was elected. Even stranger is the unfathomable mentioning of God in almost every political speech. France has been secular (by law) since 1905 and this kind of religiosity is unheard of here.
What I noticed most strongly in terms of relations with America is the love-hate nature of of the French toward American culture. As you say, there's legislation against the introduction of English words in France. But why are there English words in French? Well because it's very chic to throw in little phrases like "Ow are you doing!?" or "bye-bye." What more, advertisers capitalize on this by putting phrases or even whole English sentences into advertising.
It's a love-hate relationship, because at the same times, linguistic and political authorities (such as l'Académie française) are very protective as the French language as a symbol of its power (see: Africa).
posted by themadjuggler at 2:51 PM on January 20, 2005
This may be a part of an explanation ,
For what I see from here ( via movies, tv shows etc..) there are also some Irish,Polish,Puertorican,Texan bashing.
Looking at the anti french links on wikipedia,
it seems that anti French jokes is an excuse to be anti liberal.
As a french, Yes I love to be hated by this right wing politicians,
but unfortunately we are not living in the country they hate : we elected J. Chirac twice !
( who is Jerry lewis ? )
posted by luis huiton at 3:14 PM on January 20, 2005
For what I see from here ( via movies, tv shows etc..) there are also some Irish,Polish,Puertorican,Texan bashing.
Looking at the anti french links on wikipedia,
it seems that anti French jokes is an excuse to be anti liberal.
As a french, Yes I love to be hated by this right wing politicians,
but unfortunately we are not living in the country they hate : we elected J. Chirac twice !
( who is Jerry lewis ? )
posted by luis huiton at 3:14 PM on January 20, 2005
Could it have something to do with the fact that many of the 20th century's greatest (so called) intellectuals came from France? The US is nothing if not strongly anti-intellectual...
posted by idontlikewords at 3:15 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by idontlikewords at 3:15 PM on January 20, 2005
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for your insights. This is my first ask, and I was worried the topic would be too political. Instead I'm lovin' how intelligent the responses have been. I've got a whole evening of reading now!
posted by Popular Ethics at 3:27 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by Popular Ethics at 3:27 PM on January 20, 2005
An early example of French vs. American sparring is Thomas Jefferson's and French naturalist Georges-Louis Leclerc De Buffon's debate about American degeneracy, complete with Jefferson's use of Mastodon fossils as evidence. I've always been fascinated with their debate. More info here (second paragraph) and here.
posted by marxchivist at 3:54 PM on January 20, 2005
posted by marxchivist at 3:54 PM on January 20, 2005
I personally hate the French as they are responsible for English being such a messed up, illogical, disjointed, class-infused language.
I don't think this is a major reason, but I do try to insert it wherever I see anti-French sentiment.
posted by dagnyscott at 8:49 PM on January 20, 2005
I don't think this is a major reason, but I do try to insert it wherever I see anti-French sentiment.
posted by dagnyscott at 8:49 PM on January 20, 2005
Asparagirl's linked book sounds awful (unless, of course, you already hate the French and just want someone to sing the tune):
National Review reporter Miller (The Unmaking of Americans) and Harvard lecturer Molesky focus quite single-mindedly on destroying what they say is the "myth" of the historical friendship between the United States and France. In doing so, they give short shrift to a few vital facts: for instance, while focusing on the French and Indian massacre of British colonists at Deerfield, Mass., in 1704, they overlook the importance of the French fleet in George Washington's great victory at Yorktown. Miller and Molesky also dismiss French policy as having a cynical underside of national self-interest, willfully overlooking the fact that all governments act out of self-interest. Thus, they call French trade barriers during the Cold War ingratitude for American aid in WWII. They accuse the French, who dare to look down on American culture, of their own "sordid cultural exports," such as the avant-garde, with its strain of nihilism. And, as the authors see it, the French, with the debacle at Dien Bien Phu, are responsible for America's quagmire in Vietnam. As one might guess, driving this revisionism is France's refusal to support the United States in its late invasion of Iraq The authors' ire, and their carefully selected and unnuanced slices of history, will convince only the already converted.
Relations between France and the US have gone up and down, obviously, but it is remarkable the first war we fought after the Revolution -- which we couldn't have won without them -- was the Quasi-War with the French. (There was no formal declaration, but after the last few decades I don't think we're in much of a position to complain about that; the US captured over 80 French ships.)
If anyone's interested in the French and Indian War, I'm reading a fantastic book by Fred Anderson, Crucible of War : The Seven Years' War and the Fate of Empire in British North America, 1754-1766. Anderson weaves together Iroquois, French, and British history to show how the crisis developed (the immediate cause of war was a massacre perpetrated under the command of a young George Washington!), and he writes wonderfully. Highly recommended.
posted by languagehat at 3:53 AM on January 21, 2005
National Review reporter Miller (The Unmaking of Americans) and Harvard lecturer Molesky focus quite single-mindedly on destroying what they say is the "myth" of the historical friendship between the United States and France. In doing so, they give short shrift to a few vital facts: for instance, while focusing on the French and Indian massacre of British colonists at Deerfield, Mass., in 1704, they overlook the importance of the French fleet in George Washington's great victory at Yorktown. Miller and Molesky also dismiss French policy as having a cynical underside of national self-interest, willfully overlooking the fact that all governments act out of self-interest. Thus, they call French trade barriers during the Cold War ingratitude for American aid in WWII. They accuse the French, who dare to look down on American culture, of their own "sordid cultural exports," such as the avant-garde, with its strain of nihilism. And, as the authors see it, the French, with the debacle at Dien Bien Phu, are responsible for America's quagmire in Vietnam. As one might guess, driving this revisionism is France's refusal to support the United States in its late invasion of Iraq The authors' ire, and their carefully selected and unnuanced slices of history, will convince only the already converted.
Relations between France and the US have gone up and down, obviously, but it is remarkable the first war we fought after the Revolution -- which we couldn't have won without them -- was the Quasi-War with the French. (There was no formal declaration, but after the last few decades I don't think we're in much of a position to complain about that; the US captured over 80 French ships.)
If anyone's interested in the French and Indian War, I'm reading a fantastic book by Fred Anderson, Crucible of War : The Seven Years' War and the Fate of Empire in British North America, 1754-1766. Anderson weaves together Iroquois, French, and British history to show how the crisis developed (the immediate cause of war was a massacre perpetrated under the command of a young George Washington!), and he writes wonderfully. Highly recommended.
posted by languagehat at 3:53 AM on January 21, 2005
Just an aside, the book Asparagirl linked to is pretty fucking stupid. I read parts of it at the library a month or so along with "The French Betrayal of America" and both books are unsupported by real evidence.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:31 AM on January 21, 2005
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:31 AM on January 21, 2005
I'm surprised no one mentioned the long history of enmity between France and England (Hundred Years' War, Napoleon, etc., etc., etc.).
American culture inherited instinctive francophobia (and much else) from the English. So it all began before America was a twinkle in Christopher Columbus's eye.
posted by Turtle at 3:45 AM on February 16, 2005
American culture inherited instinctive francophobia (and much else) from the English. So it all began before America was a twinkle in Christopher Columbus's eye.
posted by Turtle at 3:45 AM on February 16, 2005
Oops, I repeated the point made in the very first answer! Never mind... But perhaps it bears repeating: a lot of the anti-French logic heard in American editorials and jokes alike are but pale imitations of British ones. Get your own taunts, you seely Américainz!
posted by Turtle at 3:54 AM on February 16, 2005
posted by Turtle at 3:54 AM on February 16, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Hildago at 11:57 AM on January 20, 2005