Should virgins kiss and tell?
January 16, 2005 11:09 AM Subscribe
DatingFilter: I'll kiss on the first date (hell, make out on the first date if it's going well). I'm pretty outgoing in general, and I don't think anybody would ever suspect I'm a Virgin and plan to be one until marriage. When do I tell? Is it weird that I feel bad kissing a guy on the first date and not telling him (point blank: Am I leading him on)? Help me out, please.
Sounds like a second date topic.
Bring it up as casually as possible and see where it goes, I would suspect that 50% would admire you for it, and 50% would be looking for the door (probably varies a bit depending on your age bracket)
posted by milovoo at 11:17 AM on January 16, 2005
Bring it up as casually as possible and see where it goes, I would suspect that 50% would admire you for it, and 50% would be looking for the door (probably varies a bit depending on your age bracket)
posted by milovoo at 11:17 AM on January 16, 2005
Been over a decade since I dated. But it seems clear that "make out on the first date" would tend to create an impression that doesn't match your belief (that you don't intend to have sexual intercourse before marriage).
My suggestion would be to find a way to mention your belief early on, or go slower on the smoochage. Some guys I know would take the notification well. Others would say, bye-bye. And unless you plan on breaking your rule, you're better off dispensing right up front with the guys who have their heart set on a little something-something.
posted by sacre_bleu at 11:30 AM on January 16, 2005
My suggestion would be to find a way to mention your belief early on, or go slower on the smoochage. Some guys I know would take the notification well. Others would say, bye-bye. And unless you plan on breaking your rule, you're better off dispensing right up front with the guys who have their heart set on a little something-something.
posted by sacre_bleu at 11:30 AM on January 16, 2005
I don't think you're leading him on unless you are heavily flirting and giving him the clear impression that there's more to come later, albeit you could foster such an impression by heavily making out on the first date. Times change (I'm 51), but back when I'd have wondered about a girl that did so on a first date, particularly if we hadn't known each other very long. That being said, if the guys you're dating seem to think they're headed to bed with you after/during the first date you may want to reevaluate whether they're the type you out to be seeing or if you are inadvertently sending the wrong message through your actions. The time to tell him is before you're in a compromising situation. Any man worth shit will respect you for it, even if it's only for the challenge.
posted by Pressed Rat at 11:32 AM on January 16, 2005
posted by Pressed Rat at 11:32 AM on January 16, 2005
Would you run up and down the street yelling "I'm a virgin" to every stranger you meet? On a first date, he's still a stranger, not a friend. You obviously are both in it to see where it might go from there, but you have no obligation to share your life story. If he feels like you "wasted his time" or "led him on" by refusing sex, then it's all for the better because you'd know he's an asshole and can move on.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 11:57 AM on January 16, 2005
posted by Saucy Intruder at 11:57 AM on January 16, 2005
if that's who you are, that's cool. telling him later, when you feel like it, is fine.
posted by dorian at 11:58 AM on January 16, 2005
posted by dorian at 11:58 AM on January 16, 2005
Why would you want to be with someone who doesn't share your feelings about premarital sex? Tell him soon: first or second date. If he agrees, you've made progress in discussing each of your expectations. If he doesn't, you or he can exit gracefully before anyone's heart gets broken.
posted by Alylex at 12:00 PM on January 16, 2005
posted by Alylex at 12:00 PM on January 16, 2005
If you are planning to postpone sex until marriage would it not be better to find guys with the same belief system?
I made mistakes in my life, but then made the choice to be celibate until marriage (the virgin horse being out of the barn, so to speak.) I married a 25 year old man who was a virgin. I am not going to give you too much information but I will say that IT WAS NOT A PROBLEM.
posted by konolia at 12:02 PM on January 16, 2005
I made mistakes in my life, but then made the choice to be celibate until marriage (the virgin horse being out of the barn, so to speak.) I married a 25 year old man who was a virgin. I am not going to give you too much information but I will say that IT WAS NOT A PROBLEM.
posted by konolia at 12:02 PM on January 16, 2005
A kiss on the first date? That's sweet, and has no implied promises and needs no explanations. Any guy who thinks it does is a fool.
Making out on a first date? Well, 'making-out' covers a lot of territory, and while it's been a long time since I cleared waivers in the singles league, I'm pretty sure I'd have thought you were at least considering getting naked sometime relatively soon, maybe even that night, so that goes in the 'leading-on' category, and you need to make your position clear.
posted by mojohand at 12:05 PM on January 16, 2005
Making out on a first date? Well, 'making-out' covers a lot of territory, and while it's been a long time since I cleared waivers in the singles league, I'm pretty sure I'd have thought you were at least considering getting naked sometime relatively soon, maybe even that night, so that goes in the 'leading-on' category, and you need to make your position clear.
posted by mojohand at 12:05 PM on January 16, 2005
I would say tell him as early as possible. I think most men - hell most people in general these days - expect sex to be part of the relationship long before the subject of marriage comes up. Making out on the first date is definitely sending the wrong message.
(Unless you plan to be one of those virgins who does absolutely everything but, in which case I'd say you can wait.)
Preview - yeah, what mojohand just said.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:10 PM on January 16, 2005
(Unless you plan to be one of those virgins who does absolutely everything but, in which case I'd say you can wait.)
Preview - yeah, what mojohand just said.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:10 PM on January 16, 2005
I'm 30, so I may also be "too old" to give appropriate advice for the swinging 21st century, but I would say that making out on a first date is very likely to give a wrong impression. It is your right, of course, to do so, but if you think about things from a functionalist point of view, it seems like doing something that has a high likelihood of giving a wrong impression would be a bad thing to do, since your concern seems to be not giving the wrong impression.
But, again, since I don't know how old you are, I don't know if that applies to your generation or not.
posted by Bugbread at 12:13 PM on January 16, 2005
But, again, since I don't know how old you are, I don't know if that applies to your generation or not.
posted by Bugbread at 12:13 PM on January 16, 2005
As far as not telling on the first date, there's no need to disclose. However making out big time on date #1 may raise expectations when date #2 comes up & could make for some discomfort, so go easy.
Don't doublethink this - it's important to you, period. It's understandable that you might worry whether a guy will feel bad or angry but that's just how some might react. So be it. I bet most will say "it's ok" (even if they don't really mean it) but you've said what you need to.
'Virgin' is open to interpretation by some, i.e., no intercourse but some other sex is OK. Your principles & needs should have no room for negotiation or compromise - know what you'd be comfortable doing and what would be unacceptable to you.
Oh yeah, and what everybody else said.
posted by nj_subgenius at 12:18 PM on January 16, 2005
Don't doublethink this - it's important to you, period. It's understandable that you might worry whether a guy will feel bad or angry but that's just how some might react. So be it. I bet most will say "it's ok" (even if they don't really mean it) but you've said what you need to.
'Virgin' is open to interpretation by some, i.e., no intercourse but some other sex is OK. Your principles & needs should have no room for negotiation or compromise - know what you'd be comfortable doing and what would be unacceptable to you.
Oh yeah, and what everybody else said.
posted by nj_subgenius at 12:18 PM on January 16, 2005
There are worse things than leading someone on. I think you should tell him when the time is right for you.
If you are okay making out with someone who is not going to become a long-term relationship, then don't worry about it til the second or third or whatever date. Plenty of people, especially young people, will make out ("hook-up") on the first date without any expectation of sex or even a second date. The ones that do have expectations are responsible for making sure you share their feelings before making out with you.
On the other hand if you are really only looking for someone to share a significant chunk of your life with, it might make sense to vet them before smooches.
posted by mai at 12:47 PM on January 16, 2005
If you are okay making out with someone who is not going to become a long-term relationship, then don't worry about it til the second or third or whatever date. Plenty of people, especially young people, will make out ("hook-up") on the first date without any expectation of sex or even a second date. The ones that do have expectations are responsible for making sure you share their feelings before making out with you.
On the other hand if you are really only looking for someone to share a significant chunk of your life with, it might make sense to vet them before smooches.
posted by mai at 12:47 PM on January 16, 2005
(hell, make out on the first date if it's going well)
That's where you're going to get into trouble. A kiss is pretty straight-forward. "Making out" can mean a lot of different things to different people. Also, a kiss has a (relatively) straight-forward beginning, middle and end. The only real finale to "making out" is sex.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:50 PM on January 16, 2005
That's where you're going to get into trouble. A kiss is pretty straight-forward. "Making out" can mean a lot of different things to different people. Also, a kiss has a (relatively) straight-forward beginning, middle and end. The only real finale to "making out" is sex.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:50 PM on January 16, 2005
I guess I'll pipe in with the younger viewpoint (I'm 22), since many people seem to be concerned that their views don't apply here. Like CunningLinguist said, I would say most men (my age) expect sex to be a part of any relationship that lasts longer than a few dates, and sometimes expect it sooner. The unfortunate truth is that while you may be innocently making out with a guy, he might be thinking he's on his way to the bedroom. I don't think it's your responsibility to tell him before you even kiss him, but it's a fine line between kissing and the heavy petting that might indicate to him that you want to do more at some point.
I have had the experience of the girl telling me "too late" that she was a virgin (and planning on staying that way). No details, but suffice to say she saved that little tidbit of information for the very last second. That was a horribly awkward experience that could have been easily avoided if she had been upfront with me a little earlier. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you have to use your discretion when deciding whether to tell a guy about your life choices: too early and it will seem weird and forced, too late and you get a situation where the guy feels like you weren't being upfront.
Overall I have to simply recommend you stick to dating other men who have the same ideas about sex as you do, in order to avoid the inevitable awkward disclosures that come with dating men who are used to having casual sex. Hope that helps.
posted by rooftop secrets at 12:55 PM on January 16, 2005
I have had the experience of the girl telling me "too late" that she was a virgin (and planning on staying that way). No details, but suffice to say she saved that little tidbit of information for the very last second. That was a horribly awkward experience that could have been easily avoided if she had been upfront with me a little earlier. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you have to use your discretion when deciding whether to tell a guy about your life choices: too early and it will seem weird and forced, too late and you get a situation where the guy feels like you weren't being upfront.
Overall I have to simply recommend you stick to dating other men who have the same ideas about sex as you do, in order to avoid the inevitable awkward disclosures that come with dating men who are used to having casual sex. Hope that helps.
posted by rooftop secrets at 12:55 PM on January 16, 2005
rooftop secrets: Ha, but where are those men who have the same ideas? The only thing I can think of is in church groups. I have a female friend who wants to stay a virgin but also wants nothing to do with religious guys. I told her she would have a tough time finding one at the age of 24. I at least don't know any non-religious guys of that age who don't want sex as an important part of their relationship.
posted by grouse at 1:04 PM on January 16, 2005
posted by grouse at 1:04 PM on January 16, 2005
It would help if you mentioned WHY you plan on being a virgin until marriage. is it because you're christian? if so, the answer is simple. meet guys in church. If there's another reason, please post it so that it's clear exactly why you have these values.
If you're out dating a lot, then you are looking for something. if you're looking to get married, look for a guy who has interests that correspond with yours.
if you're meeting someone in a bar setting or through a friend, you should let them know before your first date. if you're doing online personals, don't even meet with someone until they know what your values and ideals about sex are. don't waste your time, and don't waste someone else's by beating around the bush.
posted by getupandgo at 1:15 PM on January 16, 2005
If you're out dating a lot, then you are looking for something. if you're looking to get married, look for a guy who has interests that correspond with yours.
if you're meeting someone in a bar setting or through a friend, you should let them know before your first date. if you're doing online personals, don't even meet with someone until they know what your values and ideals about sex are. don't waste your time, and don't waste someone else's by beating around the bush.
posted by getupandgo at 1:15 PM on January 16, 2005
Why do non religious people feel the need or have the desire o stay a virgin until marriage? I'm curious.
posted by sic at 1:29 PM on January 16, 2005
posted by sic at 1:29 PM on January 16, 2005
While it might be embarrassing to bring up virginity on the first date, you could mention having "old-fashioned values" or something. This way he won't be expecting some right away (used to be 3rd date as a rule), but you don't have to go into details until you are more acquainted.
posted by 445supermag at 1:32 PM on January 16, 2005
posted by 445supermag at 1:32 PM on January 16, 2005
I would say most men (my age) expect sex to be a part of any relationship that lasts longer than a few dates, and sometimes expect it sooner.
I'm 23, and everyone I know around my age, regardless of identified gender, feels this way. Hell, most of us don't even see "relationship" as a requirement for sex. I personally would want to know immediately if I were on a date with someone who wanted to be a virgin until marriage, since marriage isn't something I'm ever going to be into.
So you probably should be pretty clear about it as soon as you get the opportunity.
posted by cmonkey at 1:33 PM on January 16, 2005
I'm 23, and everyone I know around my age, regardless of identified gender, feels this way. Hell, most of us don't even see "relationship" as a requirement for sex. I personally would want to know immediately if I were on a date with someone who wanted to be a virgin until marriage, since marriage isn't something I'm ever going to be into.
So you probably should be pretty clear about it as soon as you get the opportunity.
posted by cmonkey at 1:33 PM on January 16, 2005
Tell the guy as early as possible. Sure, you don't just blurt it out, you work it into a conversation about your morals, your religion, or whatever it is that motivates your desire for celibacy, etc.
Some commenters above are apparently assuming that this is an issue of your having to defend your right to your own values. This is not true. Of course you have the right to wait until marriage if that suits you, and I don't think that anyone who has posted so far is saying otherwise.
But you can keep your integrity and still not foster resentment or miscommunication between you and the guys you date. Some guys will see it as a challenge, some will start to think of you as wife material, some will be okay with just making out, and some will not want to take things any further...and this last group (of which I am a member) is not made of bad people, just people with different values and goals than yours. And being honest with them about what's going on is a good thing.
We don't know your cultural situation. But in my experience as a guy, if I'm 'making out' on the first date, then I am not thinking that this is a girl who wants to wait for marriage before having sex. She might want to wait another date, sure, another ten dates, maybe. But I have no intention of marrying someone (or even considering her my girlfriend, really) who I haven't been having sex with regularly for a while. This is such a prevalent attitude, at least in my cultural context, that I don't feel the need to bring it up at all. And if it was an issue, I would definitely want to know about it as soon as possible.
posted by bingo at 1:38 PM on January 16, 2005
Some commenters above are apparently assuming that this is an issue of your having to defend your right to your own values. This is not true. Of course you have the right to wait until marriage if that suits you, and I don't think that anyone who has posted so far is saying otherwise.
But you can keep your integrity and still not foster resentment or miscommunication between you and the guys you date. Some guys will see it as a challenge, some will start to think of you as wife material, some will be okay with just making out, and some will not want to take things any further...and this last group (of which I am a member) is not made of bad people, just people with different values and goals than yours. And being honest with them about what's going on is a good thing.
We don't know your cultural situation. But in my experience as a guy, if I'm 'making out' on the first date, then I am not thinking that this is a girl who wants to wait for marriage before having sex. She might want to wait another date, sure, another ten dates, maybe. But I have no intention of marrying someone (or even considering her my girlfriend, really) who I haven't been having sex with regularly for a while. This is such a prevalent attitude, at least in my cultural context, that I don't feel the need to bring it up at all. And if it was an issue, I would definitely want to know about it as soon as possible.
posted by bingo at 1:38 PM on January 16, 2005
One of my friends and I were talking about this at happy hour last week.
First of all, guys who are interested in you for you will respect you for it, guys who are looking to get laid will not. Especially if they had their expectations set by making out, especially if your definition of making out includes heavy petting. Be prepared to discuss exactly what sex means to you, because some guys may ask it or work the conversation around to it. Don't say something like, "You're not going to get laid going out with me..." unless he says something equally rude or he's got a good sense of humor and you can put it in a humorous context.
I think that's probably the best way to know when to bring it up, actually: when will you feel comfortable telling a guy what is OK and what is not? You shouldn't be kissing him until you feel it's OK to tell him that you're staying a virgin until you're married. Don't let it go too long, though ... he might do something you didn't intend while making out.
Personally, I always feel more comfortable when I'm dating someone and there are some limits that have been set in the very near vicinity of the the first date.
On Preview:
Sic: If I'm going to get engaged and married to a person I've been having sex with, I plan to stop having sex with them until we're married. Why? In my experience, relationships can focus too much on sex. Don't want to talk about a difficult topic? Kiss the person. Want to make an argument 'better'? Have sex. Doesn't solve the actual problem and actually lets it fester, but the relationship's 'smoother' ... right up until the wheels completely come off.
445supermag: Ooh, I like that idea. I'll have to remember that one.
posted by SpecialK at 1:48 PM on January 16, 2005
First of all, guys who are interested in you for you will respect you for it, guys who are looking to get laid will not. Especially if they had their expectations set by making out, especially if your definition of making out includes heavy petting. Be prepared to discuss exactly what sex means to you, because some guys may ask it or work the conversation around to it. Don't say something like, "You're not going to get laid going out with me..." unless he says something equally rude or he's got a good sense of humor and you can put it in a humorous context.
I think that's probably the best way to know when to bring it up, actually: when will you feel comfortable telling a guy what is OK and what is not? You shouldn't be kissing him until you feel it's OK to tell him that you're staying a virgin until you're married. Don't let it go too long, though ... he might do something you didn't intend while making out.
Personally, I always feel more comfortable when I'm dating someone and there are some limits that have been set in the very near vicinity of the the first date.
On Preview:
Sic: If I'm going to get engaged and married to a person I've been having sex with, I plan to stop having sex with them until we're married. Why? In my experience, relationships can focus too much on sex. Don't want to talk about a difficult topic? Kiss the person. Want to make an argument 'better'? Have sex. Doesn't solve the actual problem and actually lets it fester, but the relationship's 'smoother' ... right up until the wheels completely come off.
445supermag: Ooh, I like that idea. I'll have to remember that one.
posted by SpecialK at 1:48 PM on January 16, 2005
agg. equally was supposed to be especially. Not sure how that typo happened.
posted by SpecialK at 1:49 PM on January 16, 2005
posted by SpecialK at 1:49 PM on January 16, 2005
Have you given any thought to getting a T-shirt, lapel pin or badge that indicates your sexual limits.
Then any miscommunication is their problem.
posted by milovoo at 2:01 PM on January 16, 2005
Then any miscommunication is their problem.
posted by milovoo at 2:01 PM on January 16, 2005
Milovoo: Like shrinkwrap license agreements for the 21st century woman?
posted by SpecialK at 2:14 PM on January 16, 2005
posted by SpecialK at 2:14 PM on January 16, 2005
hell, make out on the first date if it's going well
What does this mean? You'll engage in sexual activity, but vaginal intercourse is out? What about oral? Anal? Will you give a guy a handjob? Or allow him to similarly manually stimulate you?
I cannot answer your question with the supplied information.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:22 PM on January 16, 2005
What does this mean? You'll engage in sexual activity, but vaginal intercourse is out? What about oral? Anal? Will you give a guy a handjob? Or allow him to similarly manually stimulate you?
I cannot answer your question with the supplied information.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:22 PM on January 16, 2005
Are anonymous question askers able to make comments within the thread yet? Is this a pony yet to be ridden?
posted by rooftop secrets at 2:26 PM on January 16, 2005
posted by rooftop secrets at 2:26 PM on January 16, 2005
What does this mean? You'll engage in sexual activity, but vaginal intercourse is out? What about oral? Anal? Will you give a guy a handjob? Or allow him to similarly manually stimulate you?
I cannot answer your question with the supplied information.
No problem, Stavros, since everyone else already answered it for you.
posted by SpecialK at 2:28 PM on January 16, 2005
I cannot answer your question with the supplied information.
No problem, Stavros, since everyone else already answered it for you.
posted by SpecialK at 2:28 PM on January 16, 2005
Sic: If I'm going to get engaged and married to a person I've been having sex with, I plan to stop having sex with them until we're married. Why? In my experience, relationships can focus too much on sex. Don't want to talk about a difficult topic? Kiss the person. Want to make an argument 'better'? Have sex. Doesn't solve the actual problem and actually lets it fester, but the relationship's 'smoother' ... right up until the wheels completely come off.
I'm sorry, I don't understand. If you are convinced that sex is going to cloud your judgement or make you unable to deal with the problems in a relationship, why have sex at all before marriage? (or after, for that matter)
posted by sic at 2:32 PM on January 16, 2005
I'm sorry, I don't understand. If you are convinced that sex is going to cloud your judgement or make you unable to deal with the problems in a relationship, why have sex at all before marriage? (or after, for that matter)
posted by sic at 2:32 PM on January 16, 2005
If dudes don't want to see you after hearing you're a virgin, it doesn't really make them assholes, (unless they like end the date as soon as they get the news).
Good point. No, it doesn't make them assholes unless they do something assholish after finding that out, but it does mean they're not the right person for you.
posted by SpecialK at 2:32 PM on January 16, 2005
Good point. No, it doesn't make them assholes unless they do something assholish after finding that out, but it does mean they're not the right person for you.
posted by SpecialK at 2:32 PM on January 16, 2005
Sic: I'm going to guess on a potential answer to that: Before you think the relationship is going to be long term, sex isn't getting in the way of the relationship, because it's a light relationship without a goal. That is, there isn't anything for it to get in the way of. Then the engagement period becomes a trial period. "Ok, I've had my fun, now lets see if there's more to this relationship besides sex". And if that works out, they you get married, and have your sex, confident that the sex isn't hiding burgeoning issues, because you've already tested that foundation and found it stable.
This probably sounds funky because nowadays (and perhaps historically as well, I dunno), the engagement is seen as the period when the decision has been made but not acted out on, instead of a trial period.
I suppose you could break the relationship up into five parts if you wanted to be really anal (er, no side meanings intended) and clear about it:
Getting To Know You - Trying to determine if this is a person you even want to have sex with.
The Fun Time - Ok, you like them as a person, and now it's time for fun monkey sex.
The Evaluation Time - Ok, now to see if this relationship will stand up to marriage. No sex.
Engagement - Ok, even without sex, the relationship worked, so now is just the waiting period when wedding chapels are reserved and wedding dresses are made. And sex is had.
Marriage - Now you're married. More sex, this time with occasional bouts of children (or not).
Just a potential answer that pops to mind.
posted by Bugbread at 3:02 PM on January 16, 2005
This probably sounds funky because nowadays (and perhaps historically as well, I dunno), the engagement is seen as the period when the decision has been made but not acted out on, instead of a trial period.
I suppose you could break the relationship up into five parts if you wanted to be really anal (er, no side meanings intended) and clear about it:
Getting To Know You - Trying to determine if this is a person you even want to have sex with.
The Fun Time - Ok, you like them as a person, and now it's time for fun monkey sex.
The Evaluation Time - Ok, now to see if this relationship will stand up to marriage. No sex.
Engagement - Ok, even without sex, the relationship worked, so now is just the waiting period when wedding chapels are reserved and wedding dresses are made. And sex is had.
Marriage - Now you're married. More sex, this time with occasional bouts of children (or not).
Just a potential answer that pops to mind.
posted by Bugbread at 3:02 PM on January 16, 2005
I would think that learning not to, or whether you can not, use sex as a relationship bandage and substitute for conversation is an important part of the "Evaluation". Declaring normal aspects of your relationship off limits for that time period seems rather to defeat the purpose of having an evaluation at all.
posted by jacquilynne at 3:39 PM on January 16, 2005
posted by jacquilynne at 3:39 PM on January 16, 2005
hell, make out on the first date if it's going well
...
What does this mean? You'll engage in sexual activity,
I'm fairly certain that the standard definition of "making out" (if there is such a thing) is basically kissing, perhaps intense sweaty kissing with tongue, but still just kissing. I would disagree with definition three here.
"Hook-up" is ambigious, but "making out" seems to cover only the kissing aspect. It's "first base" in the standard lexicon.
Does anyone disagree?
posted by milovoo at 4:05 PM on January 16, 2005
...
What does this mean? You'll engage in sexual activity,
I'm fairly certain that the standard definition of "making out" (if there is such a thing) is basically kissing, perhaps intense sweaty kissing with tongue, but still just kissing. I would disagree with definition three here.
"Hook-up" is ambigious, but "making out" seems to cover only the kissing aspect. It's "first base" in the standard lexicon.
Does anyone disagree?
posted by milovoo at 4:05 PM on January 16, 2005
I do.
Er, well, rather, I think it can sometimes be used for more than just kissing. Specifically, over-the-clothing fondling. But I also disagree with with definition three there. And I think it depends on the person whether it's just kissing or also fondling.
posted by Bugbread at 4:08 PM on January 16, 2005
Er, well, rather, I think it can sometimes be used for more than just kissing. Specifically, over-the-clothing fondling. But I also disagree with with definition three there. And I think it depends on the person whether it's just kissing or also fondling.
posted by Bugbread at 4:08 PM on January 16, 2005
I'm fairly certain that the standard definition of "making out" (if there is such a thing) is basically kissing, perhaps intense sweaty kissing with tongue, but still just kissing.
I absolutely disagree. Even in high school in Kansas in the 80s, 'making out' always meant something beyond kissing. In fact, 'making out' is exactly the correct phrase to use when you want to suggest that something happened beyond kissing, but you don't want to say exactly what.
Definition three, in that link, is wrong.
posted by bingo at 4:26 PM on January 16, 2005
I absolutely disagree. Even in high school in Kansas in the 80s, 'making out' always meant something beyond kissing. In fact, 'making out' is exactly the correct phrase to use when you want to suggest that something happened beyond kissing, but you don't want to say exactly what.
Definition three, in that link, is wrong.
posted by bingo at 4:26 PM on January 16, 2005
We are arguing about the definition of "making out."
Is there gonna be a fight in the playground later?
posted by jonmc at 4:29 PM on January 16, 2005
Is there gonna be a fight in the playground later?
posted by jonmc at 4:29 PM on January 16, 2005
Only if you make out with my girlfriend, jon.
Kissing is okay, though. We're not going steady.
posted by bingo at 4:54 PM on January 16, 2005
Kissing is okay, though. We're not going steady.
posted by bingo at 4:54 PM on January 16, 2005
Why do non religious people feel the need or have the desire o stay a virgin until marriage? I'm curious.
I'm trying not to sound like a jackass, but perhaps because they're involuntarily celibate, and coming up with some other reason is a convenient cover story? At least, I think this might have been my reason.
posted by wackybrit at 5:02 PM on January 16, 2005
I'm trying not to sound like a jackass, but perhaps because they're involuntarily celibate, and coming up with some other reason is a convenient cover story? At least, I think this might have been my reason.
posted by wackybrit at 5:02 PM on January 16, 2005
I would bring it up on the third or fourth date.
All you need to focus on for the first date is whether or not you are interested in seeing more of the guy, and that's all he should be focused on as well. When you know the dates could lead to more relationship territory, that's when I would bring it up. Unless of course, sex comes up as a topic, in which case don't shy away from it.
posted by xammerboy at 5:11 PM on January 16, 2005
All you need to focus on for the first date is whether or not you are interested in seeing more of the guy, and that's all he should be focused on as well. When you know the dates could lead to more relationship territory, that's when I would bring it up. Unless of course, sex comes up as a topic, in which case don't shy away from it.
posted by xammerboy at 5:11 PM on January 16, 2005
I think the only way that you'll be able to stay a virgin until you get married is if you only date guys who A) want to stay virgins until they're married, or B) if they aren't virgins, at least want you to stay virginal. That is, it'd have to be a mutual effort.
Words to that effect were mentioned upthread, but I thought I'd reiterate.
It was also said, but it also bears repeating, that it'd be a really good idea for you to know why you've made that decision. Threat of disease? Religious convictions? Something else? Your selection of boy should probably be narrowed to guys that share your thoughts / beliefs. Otherwise, it's sure to create tension in the relationship, regardless of when you tell him.
Because you're thinking (in some terms, at least) about marriage, you might consider not dating someone unless you're thinking about marrying him. That is, set a high bar, and if Joe Dateable is actually Joe Marryable, then you've found your man. Have a short engagement, elope, and have sex. Yay. If Joe Dateable is not Joe Marryable, end the relationship. Two dates should clue you in as to whether he's marryable or not, and that seems to be under the "sex is expected, if not discussed" threshold mentioned earlier in this thread.
posted by Alt F4 at 5:57 PM on January 16, 2005
Words to that effect were mentioned upthread, but I thought I'd reiterate.
It was also said, but it also bears repeating, that it'd be a really good idea for you to know why you've made that decision. Threat of disease? Religious convictions? Something else? Your selection of boy should probably be narrowed to guys that share your thoughts / beliefs. Otherwise, it's sure to create tension in the relationship, regardless of when you tell him.
Because you're thinking (in some terms, at least) about marriage, you might consider not dating someone unless you're thinking about marrying him. That is, set a high bar, and if Joe Dateable is actually Joe Marryable, then you've found your man. Have a short engagement, elope, and have sex. Yay. If Joe Dateable is not Joe Marryable, end the relationship. Two dates should clue you in as to whether he's marryable or not, and that seems to be under the "sex is expected, if not discussed" threshold mentioned earlier in this thread.
posted by Alt F4 at 5:57 PM on January 16, 2005
I'll throw some water on the fire. I'm 22, male, actively date a lot, not religious in any direct way, have had plenty of opportunities for sex, and yet am still a virgin. It's a personal decision a few guys make when they decide they are waiting for someone really special, or for other reasons besides religion.
I agree that you should be up front with this, though not on the first date. Also, you're going to have to evaluate your actions on a date to make sure you're not setting your companion up for something painful in the end.
posted by onalark at 6:27 PM on January 16, 2005
I agree that you should be up front with this, though not on the first date. Also, you're going to have to evaluate your actions on a date to make sure you're not setting your companion up for something painful in the end.
posted by onalark at 6:27 PM on January 16, 2005
Tell the guy sometime before he gets to the point Rooftop Secrets did, or during a discussion of Relationships and Sex, whichever comes first.
In my experience (which is not terribly wide-ranging), heavy makeout sessions have always led to sex. So I'd be surprised to have the brakes put on after a certain point.
Also, somewhat off the original question, I'll mention that I'd be a bit weirded-out to discover the woman I was dating was a virgin. I would flatly refuse to marry a woman I hadn't had sex with before marriage: this isn't a matter of wanting to get down her pants as quickly as possible, its a matter of philosophical compatibility and knowing whether you're sexually compatible. Don't be too surprised if a guy takes a principled stand against virginity.
posted by adamrice at 6:31 PM on January 16, 2005
In my experience (which is not terribly wide-ranging), heavy makeout sessions have always led to sex. So I'd be surprised to have the brakes put on after a certain point.
Also, somewhat off the original question, I'll mention that I'd be a bit weirded-out to discover the woman I was dating was a virgin. I would flatly refuse to marry a woman I hadn't had sex with before marriage: this isn't a matter of wanting to get down her pants as quickly as possible, its a matter of philosophical compatibility and knowing whether you're sexually compatible. Don't be too surprised if a guy takes a principled stand against virginity.
posted by adamrice at 6:31 PM on January 16, 2005
SpecialK makes a good point about how sex can mask communication problems in a relationship. However, once you have started having sex with someone I don't see how you could stop and still carry on that relationship. Beyond that, who would have the will power?
As to the question at hand, first date - leave it alone unless they bring it up. Once the making out moves beyond kissing it is time to fess up
posted by caddis at 6:55 PM on January 16, 2005
As to the question at hand, first date - leave it alone unless they bring it up. Once the making out moves beyond kissing it is time to fess up
posted by caddis at 6:55 PM on January 16, 2005
Sic: I'm sorry, I don't understand. If you are convinced that sex is going to cloud your judgement or make you unable to deal with the problems in a relationship, why have sex at all before marriage? (or after, for that matter)
First of all, because sex is fun. It's enjoyable, and it's a great way to be as close, physically and in some ways emotionally, as it's possible to get. It's the ulitmate surrendering of yourselves to each other, and that's why it's usually been a pretty big step in a relationship in most cultures up until recently.
But.
It can be used as a crutch in a relationship. It can sometimes get in the way. Fog, just like you said. There's a lot of ways to fog a relationship... Have you ever seen a couple whose marriage wasn't quite working out have a baby in the hopes that it'll somehow magically repair their relationship? I think that sex can work the same way, esp. if you're not living together and you don't get to see each other regularly. How much do you actually build your relationship and come up with ways to deal with each other when things aren't going swimmingly when you're spending most of your time together in the sack? Maybe I've just seen it a lot. I'm the guy that all of my female friends come to when they're having problems, so I get to hear about all this stuff.
Anyway... Taking the crutches out of your relationship, removing the fogging, and actually seeing it for what it is ... I think that's something I'll have to do for a period of time before I marry someone. The tactic is something that's actually very common in my social circle ... meet, date, have sex, decide to get married, stop having sex from the engagement to the marriage and possibly do pre-marriage counseling to really build up the relationship and make it strong, get married, and you've got a stable relationship to build everything else on, and suddenly the sex, while fun, isn't as important.
(The above was written at the time MeFi did a gigantic hiccough earlier today.)
Now, why would someone be interested in staying virginal until marriage for non-religious reasons? Well, I hate to break it to some of you, but ... there are some people that just aren't that interested in sex except to make babies. Low libido. It's not a medical condition unless you suddenly become like that, some people are just wired that way. *shrug* In my experience, this is more common with women, but I've run into some men that are this way too. It's not due to lack of equipment or emotional problems or chemical imbalances, it's just that a person can have a low sex drive, and for them, having sex is a special effort that they want to give to a particular person.
As far as finding a guy, Alt f4, that was a rather immature statement (way to provide some amount of encouragement for ol' anonymous...), because you left one thing out. Anonymous, what I have the feeling you're going to find someday is C: There's some guy who will feel so strongly about you emotionally and care about you so deeply that they respect your wishes to remain virginal until marriage, and he'll be willing to wait because you're the one for him.
posted by SpecialK at 8:00 PM on January 16, 2005
First of all, because sex is fun. It's enjoyable, and it's a great way to be as close, physically and in some ways emotionally, as it's possible to get. It's the ulitmate surrendering of yourselves to each other, and that's why it's usually been a pretty big step in a relationship in most cultures up until recently.
But.
It can be used as a crutch in a relationship. It can sometimes get in the way. Fog, just like you said. There's a lot of ways to fog a relationship... Have you ever seen a couple whose marriage wasn't quite working out have a baby in the hopes that it'll somehow magically repair their relationship? I think that sex can work the same way, esp. if you're not living together and you don't get to see each other regularly. How much do you actually build your relationship and come up with ways to deal with each other when things aren't going swimmingly when you're spending most of your time together in the sack? Maybe I've just seen it a lot. I'm the guy that all of my female friends come to when they're having problems, so I get to hear about all this stuff.
Anyway... Taking the crutches out of your relationship, removing the fogging, and actually seeing it for what it is ... I think that's something I'll have to do for a period of time before I marry someone. The tactic is something that's actually very common in my social circle ... meet, date, have sex, decide to get married, stop having sex from the engagement to the marriage and possibly do pre-marriage counseling to really build up the relationship and make it strong, get married, and you've got a stable relationship to build everything else on, and suddenly the sex, while fun, isn't as important.
(The above was written at the time MeFi did a gigantic hiccough earlier today.)
Now, why would someone be interested in staying virginal until marriage for non-religious reasons? Well, I hate to break it to some of you, but ... there are some people that just aren't that interested in sex except to make babies. Low libido. It's not a medical condition unless you suddenly become like that, some people are just wired that way. *shrug* In my experience, this is more common with women, but I've run into some men that are this way too. It's not due to lack of equipment or emotional problems or chemical imbalances, it's just that a person can have a low sex drive, and for them, having sex is a special effort that they want to give to a particular person.
As far as finding a guy, Alt f4, that was a rather immature statement (way to provide some amount of encouragement for ol' anonymous...), because you left one thing out. Anonymous, what I have the feeling you're going to find someday is C: There's some guy who will feel so strongly about you emotionally and care about you so deeply that they respect your wishes to remain virginal until marriage, and he'll be willing to wait because you're the one for him.
posted by SpecialK at 8:00 PM on January 16, 2005
SpecialK - your life, your business. But, if my wife had issued a similar plan to me, I think I'd have had a problem (we've been together 14 years, so it's hard to be sure). But she was a lusty young wench, and I was a randy young buck. We also saw one another daily and nightly from the time we first dated to the time we got married 9 months later. For her to have said "no more nookie till I get my wedding ring" would have have been utterly at odds with everything that had gone before.
On top of which, my experience with engagements is that they are times of ever-increasing stress, especially for the bride. I wonder how much actual relationship building gets done between sweating the caterer and the florist and "how much can we afford for the open bar?"
"if you're not living together and you don't get to see each other regularly... Taking the crutches out of your relationship, removing the fogging, and actually seeing it for what it is"
WTF are people getting married for if they don't already know what their relationship really is? And not seeing one another regularly sounds like a recipe for disaster after the wedding bells stop ringing and you're living with this person for the rest of your life (ideally).
Along those lines, strike the word "possibly" from this sentence: "possibly do pre-marriage counseling to really build up the relationship and make it strong" One of the things I tell anyone who asks, as well as those who don't, is that long-term pre-marital counseling with a good counselor is an amazingly productive activity (ex: PAIRS). I think it should be mandatory, just like the marriage license.
posted by Irontom at 3:54 AM on January 17, 2005
On top of which, my experience with engagements is that they are times of ever-increasing stress, especially for the bride. I wonder how much actual relationship building gets done between sweating the caterer and the florist and "how much can we afford for the open bar?"
"if you're not living together and you don't get to see each other regularly... Taking the crutches out of your relationship, removing the fogging, and actually seeing it for what it is"
WTF are people getting married for if they don't already know what their relationship really is? And not seeing one another regularly sounds like a recipe for disaster after the wedding bells stop ringing and you're living with this person for the rest of your life (ideally).
Along those lines, strike the word "possibly" from this sentence: "possibly do pre-marriage counseling to really build up the relationship and make it strong" One of the things I tell anyone who asks, as well as those who don't, is that long-term pre-marital counseling with a good counselor is an amazingly productive activity (ex: PAIRS). I think it should be mandatory, just like the marriage license.
posted by Irontom at 3:54 AM on January 17, 2005
Irontom: Yep, true on the pre-marriage counseling, but I stuck the 'maybe' in there because some people don't beleive in professional counseling.
As for the gauging-strength-of-relationship ... I'm probably a lot younger than you are, and a lot of my friends got married even younger ... my friends started getting married at 20, and I'm now the Last Single Guy (tm) at 25. I got the impression that anonymous was young, as well, since she had not yet figured out how to let horny guys down gently. For a lot of them, although they'd been together since high school, they had both changed a lot since they got together and their relationship was built on different things than it was at the beginning. Some of them had to struggle with going to different schools. Some of them had to struggle with very traditional parents that wouldn't allow them to be together constantly before the marriage. Most of them had very long engagements ... a year or more, with several years of dating before then.
I think that circumstances can be very different, and the solutions to different relationship problems can be very different. I've had problems in the last three relationships that I've been in with sex taking over the relationship like kudzu. Does that mean that my solution ... stop having sex when you want to strengthen your relationship and figure out exactly how serious it is ... really works? Who knows.
I will say that I don't think it's a good idea to cast judgements on other people's relationships.
posted by SpecialK at 4:06 AM on January 17, 2005
As for the gauging-strength-of-relationship ... I'm probably a lot younger than you are, and a lot of my friends got married even younger ... my friends started getting married at 20, and I'm now the Last Single Guy (tm) at 25. I got the impression that anonymous was young, as well, since she had not yet figured out how to let horny guys down gently. For a lot of them, although they'd been together since high school, they had both changed a lot since they got together and their relationship was built on different things than it was at the beginning. Some of them had to struggle with going to different schools. Some of them had to struggle with very traditional parents that wouldn't allow them to be together constantly before the marriage. Most of them had very long engagements ... a year or more, with several years of dating before then.
I think that circumstances can be very different, and the solutions to different relationship problems can be very different. I've had problems in the last three relationships that I've been in with sex taking over the relationship like kudzu. Does that mean that my solution ... stop having sex when you want to strengthen your relationship and figure out exactly how serious it is ... really works? Who knows.
I will say that I don't think it's a good idea to cast judgements on other people's relationships.
posted by SpecialK at 4:06 AM on January 17, 2005
Oh - one other thing, if you date online, I would actually be upfront and include the information as a part of your profile. What you are doing is difficult, and you might as well weed out suitors who find it unnacceptable at the get go.
posted by xammerboy at 7:14 AM on January 17, 2005
posted by xammerboy at 7:14 AM on January 17, 2005
"Now, why would someone be interested in staying virginal until marriage for non-religious reasons? Well, I hate to break it to some of you, but ... there are some people that just aren't that interested in sex except to make babies. Low libido."
Hmmm... this is part of why I would not have gotten married before having sex with my partner. Sexual compatibility is important for the long-term commitment of marriage. Suppose one partner is only interested in sex to make babies, but the other has the drive to want hot monkey sex 6 days a week? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Anyway, if that was the motivation of the original poster, then she would need to communicate more than "I'm waiting until marriage." She'd need to communicate "I'm not really interested in sex at all." Otherwise it would be really unfair to someone who put in the celibate courtship time, expecting to have an active sex life after marriage.
Otherwise, I'd recommend broaching the "no sex until marriage" rule before the first serious makeout session, whichever date that happens on.
posted by tdismukes at 7:32 AM on January 17, 2005
Hmmm... this is part of why I would not have gotten married before having sex with my partner. Sexual compatibility is important for the long-term commitment of marriage. Suppose one partner is only interested in sex to make babies, but the other has the drive to want hot monkey sex 6 days a week? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Anyway, if that was the motivation of the original poster, then she would need to communicate more than "I'm waiting until marriage." She'd need to communicate "I'm not really interested in sex at all." Otherwise it would be really unfair to someone who put in the celibate courtship time, expecting to have an active sex life after marriage.
Otherwise, I'd recommend broaching the "no sex until marriage" rule before the first serious makeout session, whichever date that happens on.
posted by tdismukes at 7:32 AM on January 17, 2005
I'm not sure I can agree with the theory that stopping sex during an engagement allow you to "make sure things are really good between you and your other".
Committed relationships are complex and organic things, filled with all kinds of elements and tensions that create a kind of equilibrium (if the relationship is good). Stopping the sex actually creates an artificial situation that may not be indicative of life with sex. After all it is a natural and important part of the context of the relationship. You can't simply peel it out of the equation and think that you will have a realistic version of your life together. That means that you will have to learn how to deal with your partner while having sex with them and while doing many many other things as well. On a side note, another reason I don't like this concept is because I don't think that stopping sex will serve to clear the mind, but rather it will distort the mind with pent up sexual energy. When sexual energy is not properly dispersed (you know what I mean) it tends to make a person obsessively sexualize absolutely everything. Said in another way, taking away the sex only serves to make it FAR MORE important an issue than it needs to be. People think most clearly post-coital, not pre-coital and definitely not pronlonged pre-coital.
As far as not having sex for non religous reasons before marriage I'll say this: sexual compatibility is at least as important to the success of a marriage as any of the other aspects of your relationship, and far more important than most. If you don't have sex before entering into a committment you are leaving yourself open to pairing up with somebody with whom you are not able to have a healthy sexual relationship. This is one of the most common reasons that relationships fail.
Sorry for the tangent, to anonymous I'll say the obvious, don't blurt out your plans on virginity on a first date, because it will come off as creepy. But don't "make out" on a first date either, it will lead the other person to believe that you are a sexual person when you are not.
posted by sic at 8:34 AM on January 17, 2005
Committed relationships are complex and organic things, filled with all kinds of elements and tensions that create a kind of equilibrium (if the relationship is good). Stopping the sex actually creates an artificial situation that may not be indicative of life with sex. After all it is a natural and important part of the context of the relationship. You can't simply peel it out of the equation and think that you will have a realistic version of your life together. That means that you will have to learn how to deal with your partner while having sex with them and while doing many many other things as well. On a side note, another reason I don't like this concept is because I don't think that stopping sex will serve to clear the mind, but rather it will distort the mind with pent up sexual energy. When sexual energy is not properly dispersed (you know what I mean) it tends to make a person obsessively sexualize absolutely everything. Said in another way, taking away the sex only serves to make it FAR MORE important an issue than it needs to be. People think most clearly post-coital, not pre-coital and definitely not pronlonged pre-coital.
As far as not having sex for non religous reasons before marriage I'll say this: sexual compatibility is at least as important to the success of a marriage as any of the other aspects of your relationship, and far more important than most. If you don't have sex before entering into a committment you are leaving yourself open to pairing up with somebody with whom you are not able to have a healthy sexual relationship. This is one of the most common reasons that relationships fail.
Sorry for the tangent, to anonymous I'll say the obvious, don't blurt out your plans on virginity on a first date, because it will come off as creepy. But don't "make out" on a first date either, it will lead the other person to believe that you are a sexual person when you are not.
posted by sic at 8:34 AM on January 17, 2005
I would really like to show this entire thread, and all the boy comments saying they wouldn't date a girl who was a virgin, to my parents, who keep regaling me with the story about boys and cows and free milk.
posted by onlyconnect at 10:51 AM on January 17, 2005
posted by onlyconnect at 10:51 AM on January 17, 2005
Just to add my two pence...
I am English and therefore have no good grasp of what 'making out' means. I have met men in bars/clubs who I have swapped a good amount of saliva with before saying goodbye and never seeing them again, but I'm guessing this is not the 'date' scenario described.
I don't get the stop-sex-while-engaged thing, either - I understand the idea, but it seems a crazy way to go about it. Moving in together and living with each other for a good while seems a lot more sensible to me. I don't envisage my four-year old relationship changing at all after we get married - we've lived together stably for nearly 2 years now and weathered my partner having a nervous breakdown and battling depression in a time we lived together prior to that. We've plumbed the depths already.
I would love to know the story about boys and cows and free milk.
posted by corvine at 12:55 PM on January 17, 2005
I am English and therefore have no good grasp of what 'making out' means. I have met men in bars/clubs who I have swapped a good amount of saliva with before saying goodbye and never seeing them again, but I'm guessing this is not the 'date' scenario described.
I don't get the stop-sex-while-engaged thing, either - I understand the idea, but it seems a crazy way to go about it. Moving in together and living with each other for a good while seems a lot more sensible to me. I don't envisage my four-year old relationship changing at all after we get married - we've lived together stably for nearly 2 years now and weathered my partner having a nervous breakdown and battling depression in a time we lived together prior to that. We've plumbed the depths already.
I would love to know the story about boys and cows and free milk.
posted by corvine at 12:55 PM on January 17, 2005
It goes like this: A boy who can get the milk for free will never buy the cow.
(I play the role of the metaphorical cow.)
posted by onlyconnect at 1:38 PM on January 17, 2005
(I play the role of the metaphorical cow.)
posted by onlyconnect at 1:38 PM on January 17, 2005
Actually, it depends on just how good the milk is :) and if Boy is prepared to let other boys drink it too... :(
I also agree that living with someone is a much better way to get to know someone than to stop having sex with them.
posted by sic at 3:49 PM on January 17, 2005
I also agree that living with someone is a much better way to get to know someone than to stop having sex with them.
posted by sic at 3:49 PM on January 17, 2005
As far as finding a guy, Alt f4, that was a rather immature statement (way to provide some amount of encouragement for ol' anonymous...), because you left one thing out. Anonymous, what I have the feeling you're going to find someday is C: There's some guy who will feel so strongly about you emotionally and care about you so deeply that they respect your wishes to remain virginal until marriage, and he'll be willing to wait because you're the one for him.
SpecialK - I don't see how your option "C" isn't covered by my "B": B) if they aren't virgins, at least [they] want you to stay virginal. That is, it'd have to be a mutual effort.
And you want me to provide encouragement? How about a realistic expectation? The human sexual drive is incredibly strong. Stronger than individuals' moral and ethical values, a lot (read: most) of the time. (Note, for example, the "True Love Waits" campaign, and how low its long-term success rate is.) If staying a virgin is important to anonymous, it's important that she make decisions before she gets into the "make out" stage of the date, and that she communicates that to her man. Not recognizing that drive or making the appropriate decisions ahead of time would be immature.
Anonymous - you want some encouragement? I was a virgin when I married my wife, who was also a virgin. It's something that we are both really really really happy about. This isn't a judgement of the others who've posted here. But I strongly endorse remaining a virgin until you get married. It'll be tough, but it's doable. And, I feel, worth it. Good luck.
posted by Alt F4 at 11:41 AM on January 18, 2005
SpecialK - I don't see how your option "C" isn't covered by my "B": B) if they aren't virgins, at least [they] want you to stay virginal. That is, it'd have to be a mutual effort.
And you want me to provide encouragement? How about a realistic expectation? The human sexual drive is incredibly strong. Stronger than individuals' moral and ethical values, a lot (read: most) of the time. (Note, for example, the "True Love Waits" campaign, and how low its long-term success rate is.) If staying a virgin is important to anonymous, it's important that she make decisions before she gets into the "make out" stage of the date, and that she communicates that to her man. Not recognizing that drive or making the appropriate decisions ahead of time would be immature.
Anonymous - you want some encouragement? I was a virgin when I married my wife, who was also a virgin. It's something that we are both really really really happy about. This isn't a judgement of the others who've posted here. But I strongly endorse remaining a virgin until you get married. It'll be tough, but it's doable. And, I feel, worth it. Good luck.
posted by Alt F4 at 11:41 AM on January 18, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
It's your body and your beliefs and if he dosen't respect that, then you're well rid of the guy.
posted by jonmc at 11:16 AM on January 16, 2005