Comments on: What are some witty toasts?

Question: What are some witty toasts?

absalom — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:33:48 -0800

I do a bit of drinking, and I'm looking for a new toast. "Panties: Not the best thing in the world, but right next to it." is what my friends use, but it's getting a little old. Any suggestions? (Witty and sublime both appreciated)

By: Schismatic

Schismatic — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:37:42 -0800

A friend of mine shared this one with me a while ago. It's a bit long and not all-purpose, but I like it.

Here's to the roses and lilies in bloom,
You in my arms and I in your room.
A door that is locked, a key that is lost,
A bird, and a bottle, and a bed badly tossed,
and a night that is fifty years long.

By: DevilsAdvocate

DevilsAdvocate — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:38:43 -0800

An oldie but a goodie...

"Here's to you and here's to me
The best of friends we'll ever be.
And if we ever disagree,
Well, fuck you and here's to me."

By: interrobang

interrobang — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:39:11 -0800

I use this one every once in awhile:

"May we never regret this".

By: orange clock

orange clock — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:48:27 -0800

What's wrong with "Proust?"

Ahahahahaha.

By: RMALCOLM

RMALCOLM — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:49:17 -0800

An old Scottish standby:
Here's tae us,
There's nae like us,
Some's tried,
Their all dead.

By: dorian

dorian — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:50:01 -0800

'sláinte' is mellifluous, short and to the point. likewise kanpai/gambui, and on preview, yes, prosit.

alternately:
(with apologies to the 'ladies)

I love you more
than I did the week before
I discovered alcohol

By: orange clock

orange clock — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:50:11 -0800

Wine toasts.

By: orange clock

orange clock — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:51:37 -0800

I mean Wine toasts.

By: absalom

absalom — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:55:06 -0800

RMALCOLM: OH, yeah, I forgot about that one! We use that one sometimes on special occasions. I'm quite a fan of it.

By: riffraff

riffraff — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:04:35 -0800

"Here's to all the poor people, because without them we'd never look rich." Guffaw! Snort!

By: CunningLinguist

CunningLinguist — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:05:14 -0800

"To toast!"

By: O9scar

O9scar — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:25:42 -0800

From the Simpsons:

To alchohol: the cause of, and solution to all the world's problems.

By: LeiaS

LeiaS — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:33:14 -0800

May those that love us, love us;
and those that don't love us, may God turn their hearts;
if he can't turn there hearts, then may he turn their ankles,
so we'll know them by their limp.

By: geekyguy

geekyguy — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:33:37 -0800

"To being single, seeing double, and sleeping triple!"

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:33:37 -0800

To our wives and sweethearts - may they never meet.

By: Arch Stanton

Arch Stanton — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:48:01 -0800

Dubya: "What an impressive crowd: the haves, and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite, I call you my base (friends)."

Works well in snarky liberal circles.

By: spinifex23

spinifex23 — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:48:19 -0800

"To toast! Light, with butter and cinnamon!"

By: mmascolino

mmascolino — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:51:52 -0800

I heard this given by a best man at a wedding: "May all your ups and downs be between the sheets"

By: Vidiot

Vidiot — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:57:12 -0800

"May our house always be too small to hold all of our friends."

This favorite is by Yeats:
"Wine comes in at the mouth
And love comes in at the eye;
That's all that we will know for truth
Before we grow old and die.
I lift the glass to my mouth,
I look at you and I sigh."

"May you die in bed at the age of ninety-five, shot by a jealous spouse."

By: mds35

mds35 — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:04:01 -0800

from the Italian:

Aqua fresca,
vino puro.
Figa stretta,
cozzo duro.

It rhymes.

By: Sinner

Sinner — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:09:10 -0800

"Champagne for my real friends, real pain for my sham friends."

By: OneOliveShort

OneOliveShort — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:11:55 -0800

My bass player, Andy, usually says, "Cheers, Big Ears"
-klink-

By: bryanzera

bryanzera — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:13:06 -0800

To Honor. Get on her and stay on her.
(have to say it out loud)

By: rfordh

rfordh — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:18:59 -0800

Here's to a family history of alcoholism.

By: slhack3r

slhack3r — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:26:16 -0800

the better version of bryanzera's
to honor! if you can't come in her, come on her!

(say it out loud)

By: ColdChef

ColdChef — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:31:04 -0800

If those are the type of toasts your friends like, may I suggest:

(and this is especially good at weddings)

Here's to the lady
In the white shoes
She'll take all your money
She'll drink all your booze

She ain't got a cherry,
But that ain't no sin
Since she's still got the box
That the cherry came in.

Or, the one we always used to use:

Drink today and drown all sorrow
You may perhaps not be here tomorrow
Best while you have it, use your breath
There is no drinking after death.

By: mono blanco

mono blanco — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:32:32 -0800

Then you drain the bottle, set down your glass, look deep into your sweetie's eyes and say, "Darling, this may be the wine talking, but I think I'd like another bottle of wine."

By: mds35

mds35 — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:43:06 -0800

from The Red Green Show:

I'm a man
but I can change
if I have to
I guess.

[Technically it's a prayer, but it would make an okay toast, don't you think?]

By: mdpc98

mdpc98 — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:43:15 -0800

L'etat c'est moi

By: whybesubtle

whybesubtle — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:45:09 -0800

To Fighting, Stealing & Killing:
Fighting for what you believe in,
Stealing a young girls heart and
Killing a bottle with your friends.

By: growabrain

growabrain — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:46:31 -0800

"Gentlemen, start your livers"

By: ThePinkSuperhero

ThePinkSuperhero — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:46:45 -0800

A toast that ends, "She ain't got a cherry, but that ain't no sin, since she's still got the box that the cherry came in", good at weddings?! I *highly* doubt it.

And geekyguy, I was going to mention that toast- did you see it on The Real World?

By: inksyndicate

inksyndicate — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:49:00 -0800

"May fortune favor the foolish."

By: poopy

poopy — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:53:32 -0800

Show me the way to go home
I'm tired and I want to go to bed
I had a little drink about an hour ago
And it went right to my head
Where ever I may roam
On land or sea or foam
You will always hear me singing this song
Show me the way to go home

ahh, my favorite scene in Jaws.

By: 23skidoo

23skidoo — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:56:30 -0800

"Real poo for my sham friends and shampoo for my real friends."

By: WolfDaddy

WolfDaddy — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:02:56 -0800

I have drunk from the cup of life,
from the brim, to the dregs,
but all I ever really wanted,
was what's between your legs.

By: j.edwards

j.edwards — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:07:09 -0800

Come hither, my lads, with your tankards of ale,
And drink to the present before it shall fail;
Pile each on your platter a mountain of beef,
For 'tis eating and drinking that bring us relief:
So fill up your glass,
For life will soon pass;
When you're dead ye'll ne'er drink to your king or your lass!

By: Pockets

Pockets — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:13:10 -0800

WOOOOO!

By: krisjohn

krisjohn — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:19:58 -0800

I always like to toast to world peace.

By: geekyguy

geekyguy — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:21:59 -0800

These are great. I love mono blanco's and whybesubtle's and bryanzera's and pretty much all of them.

growabrain: I worked for years until recently as a bartender at a sports bar and often when a regular was being talked into having just one more by another regular they would often say, 'alright, twist my liver' instead of 'twist my arm'.

ThePinkSuperhero: My brother-in-law retired it to me several years ago.

Pockets just made me laugh out loud.

By: stovenator

stovenator — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:36:08 -0800

Here's to the top,
Here's to the middle,
Here's hoping we all get a little.

(raising your glass to the top and middle when called for.)

By: Saucy Intruder

Saucy Intruder — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0800

Wait, are you talking about the "pre-drinking" toast, or the "sing while you're chugging" toast? Cause I got lots of the latter category.

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:43:31 -0800

There are five reasons, I do think
Why 'tis good to have a drink,
Good wine,
A friend,
Or being dry,
Or lest we should be by and by,
Or any other reason why.

By: mwhybark

mwhybark — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:58:14 -0800

From Drinking Song, J. Webley:

A toast to Mary,
A girl I once loved,
Oh Lord, why do things have to die?
If drinking beer,
Could bring her back here,
I'd drink the damn place dry,
Yes, I'd drink the damn place dry!

When the glass is full,
Drink up! Drink up!
This maybe the last time
We see this cup.
If God wanted us sober,
He'd knock the glass over,
So while it is full we drink up!

By: Captain_Tenille

Captain_Tenille — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:00:23 -0800

I like to toast "To Human Misery!"

By: jimfl

jimfl — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:10:09 -0800

It's a lawn chair!

(Say it real fast)

By: kamikazegopher

kamikazegopher — Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:09:29 -0800

Here's to those
Who wish us well
And all the rest
Can go to hell!

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:02:45 -0800

I've always thought that a good toast should be entirely extemporaneous, but then I have a complicated network of marginally sub-obsessive-compulsive rituals associated with The Drink that always annoyed the hell out of my friends, I think, back when we were living in the same countries and able to raise the wrist together.

By: justgary

justgary — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:18:53 -0800

May you...
Work like you don't need the money,
Screw like it's being filmed,
And drink like a true Irishman.

By: JtJ

JtJ — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:37:29 -0800

You say: "To the Regiment"
All reply: "I wish I was there"

No, I don't either....but it's from a TV show called "Early Doors" which is very good IMHO.

By: benzo8

benzo8 — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:43:46 -0800

Man! All these long toasts - can't you just get to the drinking!

Salud!

By: rxrfrx

rxrfrx — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:33:55 -0800

RMALCOLM got to what is probably the original, but I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this Zork gem:

Here's to us!
Who's like us?
Damn few!
And they're allllllllllllll dead.

By: Fat Guy

Fat Guy — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:11:33 -0800

Cheers! May you live 900 years!
And may I live 901 so I may remeber you.

By: furtive

furtive — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:48:25 -0800

To cannibalism!

/dodges toast

/ends Rocky Horror reference

By: yerfatma

yerfatma — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 04:25:13 -0800

My absolute favorite, stolen from SuperTroopers:

"To the death of fun."

By: briank

briank — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 04:52:13 -0800

"Ladies and gentlemen, The Queen."

By: XiBe

XiBe — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:10:41 -0800

A silly french one :
"A nos femmes,
A nos chevaux,
A nos escaliers,
Et à ceux qui les montent!"

Can't we have anonymous answering for one ? ;)

By: filmgeek

filmgeek — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:14:25 -0800

To our our women, to our horses,
and the men who ride them.

By: Fezboy!

Fezboy! — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:53:40 -0800

[Army toast--recite in unison]

Starkle starkle, little twink
Who thee am I are you think?
I'm not under the alco-fluence of in-cohol
as some stinkle peep.
And the drunker I sit here
The longer I get.

[occasionally follow with]
A brotchen, a brotchen
A little piece of bread
Once around the head* for all the _____**
Once around the head*** for the ____** god[s]

[although including the second part indicates that you intend to drain your glass. failing to do so after invoking the god[s] earned one much disrespect and derision]

*circle glass around your cranial region
**where _____ == your group|mascot|collective name
***circle glass around your crotchal region

We would hold 'learning parties' when new recruits showed up. At this party the 'cruit was allowed to hear the toast a few times and then had to recite it without fsking up. Each fskup earned the 'cruit another shot. Hooray for alcohol poisoning!

By: robocop is bleeding

robocop is bleeding — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:20:14 -0800

Heres to a long life, and a happy one.
A quick death and an easy one.
A pretty girl and a honest one.
A cold beer... and another one!

Or, from Family Guy:
"Let's play Drink the Beer!"

By: Cool Alex

Cool Alex — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:23:56 -0800

Here's to honor!
If you can't come in her
come on her!

works best in mixed company.

By: icey

icey — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:39:05 -0800

"Here's to looking like movie stars, partying like rock stars, and f*cking like porn stars"

By: softlord

softlord — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:39:44 -0800

I always toast "to interesting times". Old Chinese curse, IIRC. Then again it might just be one of those racial stereotypes.

By: norm

norm — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:44:57 -0800

I always like to toast to world peace.

Sweet vermouth with a twist? Ewww.

By: aramaic

aramaic — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:54:59 -0800

"I hate you all and wish you were dead!"
(drink rapidly, slam glass on table with an angry glare)

...it works best with a certain type of crowd.

By: Divine_Wino

Divine_Wino — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:13:00 -0800

I have two that I love, one (I've heard it sourced to Iran or another Muslim country):
"Here's to your discretion"

and another sourced to the Soviet army:

"Here's to the success of our hopeless task."

And of course if you are feeling sentimental and goofy:

"May all our worst days be thus".

By: transient

transient — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:24:03 -0800

"Ladies and gentlemen, The Queen."

Alternatively, "Ladies and gentlemen, to the queer old dean."

By: andrew cooke

andrew cooke — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:25:48 -0800

ah, aramaic, that's mine. but still, the "panties" line that opened this thread gives you both witty and sublime in one handy package (and given how up-tight americans are about drink, how come you have so many rituals associated with it?)

anyway, here i'm afraid it's just salud or cheers, depending on the company.

By: eriko

eriko — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:36:54 -0800

"Confusion to the French!"

By: bondcliff

bondcliff — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:48:38 -0800

I've always liked:

"The Body of Christ."

"Amen"

By: o2b

o2b — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:03:13 -0800

Sappy:

Here's to it,
And from it,
And to it again,
'Cause we might not be here to do it again.

By: Divine_Wino

Divine_Wino — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:30:28 -0800

From Patrick O'Brian:

"Confusion to the Pope".

Ok that's my favorite.

By: mdpc98

mdpc98 — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:05:37 -0800

alright, i'll bite--i don't get the "it's a lawn chair" one...

By: Plutor

Plutor — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:08:29 -0800

Appropriate for weddings, but more so for bachelor parties before it gets rowdy: "To eating off a plate, instead of straight out of the pan."

By: u.n. owen

u.n. owen — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:09:29 -0800

krisjohn, norm, you win on the Groundhog day references. But I was totally gonna say it and you stole my thunder. *sniffle*

By: Mo Nickels

Mo Nickels — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:34:53 -0800

I use a version of a lyric out of the song "Moonshiner," originally, I believe, an Irish tune, but covered by Dylan, Uncle Tupelo, Cat Power, and others.

May you eat when you're hungry
drink when you're dry
two dollars when you're hard up
and religion when you die.

By: scratch

scratch — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:58:07 -0800

I didn't read all the replies, so I pre-apologize if someone's offered this, from Easy Rider, an underrated movie:

Here's to old D.H. Lawrence.

By: Divine_Wino

Divine_Wino — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:05:44 -0800

Mo,
I've also hear it:

"So let me eat when I'm hungry
Drink when I'm dry...
If the whiskey doesn't kill me
I guess I'll drink till I die..."

By: Divine_Wino

Divine_Wino — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:06:10 -0800

heard, dammit.

By: Divine_Wino

Divine_Wino — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:12:49 -0800

Here's to old D.H. Lawrence.

Hey scratch, Will you indulge my laziness and tell me if there's any context to that or not?

It's awesome either way.

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:26:12 -0800

"Gentlemen... to evil!" --Mr. Black

By: jopreacher

jopreacher — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:29:42 -0800

My friend Sherris favorites:

"Here's to the heat.
Not the heat that brings down barns and shantys
but the heat that brings down bras and panties."

"To Honor.
Get on her and stay on her
and if you happen to fall off her
get the fu*k back on her!"

Shes gonna love the rock star, movie star, porn star one...

By: The White Hat

The White Hat — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:49:07 -0800

The ultimate toast given by Mike Cross at the Philadelphia Folk Festival some years ago.

Here's to the wine we love to drink
And the food we love to eat.
Here's to our wives and sweethearts,
And may they never meet.
Here's champagne for our real friends
And real pain for our sham friends.
And when this journey finally ends, may all of us find peace.

Here's to all the women I've loved
And all the ones I've kissed.
As for regrets, I just have one:
That's all the ones I've missed.
While women's faults are many,
We men have only two:
Every single thing we say and everything we do.

But I wish you health, I wish you wealth
And happiness galore.
I wish you heaven when you die,
What could I wish you more?
May your joys be as deep as the ocean,
Your troubles as light as its foam,
And may you find sweet peace of mind,
Wherever you may roam.

By: rorycberger

rorycberger — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:20:03 -0800

I know it's been (sort of) said a few times now, but a buddy of mine always uses:

Here's to glory,
Here's to honor,
If you can't come in her,
Come on her.

I've never heard it without a line before "here's to honor," as others have suggested above, but this way allows for a relaxed pace in saying it that makes it seem more eloquent and (slightly) less trashy than it really is.

P.S. I don't get "it's a lawn chair" either...someone explain please?

By: scratch

scratch — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:28:00 -0800

"Here's to old D. H. Lawrence" is (if memory serves) what Jack Nicholson, playing a left-wing alcoholic Southern lawyer, says prior to swigging out of a pint bottle while he & biker hippies Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper sit around their campfire. No real context, I guess--just a nice little character-development detail. Then again I could have it all wrong. Go ahead and see the movie, you'll be glad you did.

By: Divine_Wino

Divine_Wino — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:35:15 -0800

Scratch
thanks, I have seen it, just not recently enough, I'ma have to see it again.

By: i_cola

i_cola — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:56:50 -0800

Our family toast is 'Happy Faries'. (As in 'Good 'Elf'.)

By: i_cola

i_cola — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:57:40 -0800

...or even 'Fairies'...

By: OneOliveShort

OneOliveShort — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:58:29 -0800

'sláinte' is 'Cheers' in Irish and is pronounced quite similarly to "It's a lawn chair" said fast and somewhat slurred. That's where I think jimfl was going with that.

By: ruddhist

ruddhist — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:07:47 -0800

"Here's to us, and those like us. Damned few of us left."

By: booth

booth — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:47:44 -0800

KR and I have a shot of tequila every day after work. We clink and say either "Cheers" or the Turkish equivalent, pronounced "Sherefay."

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:16:30 -0800

Are there any humourous toasts that aren't for sexist pigs? I'm sensing a pattern here...

By: gottabefunky

gottabefunky — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:24:24 -0800

Here's to a sweetheart, a bottle, and a friend.
The first beautiful, the second full, the last ever faithful.

May I see you grey
And combing your grandchildren's hair.

Here's to Eileen O'Hara,
For her life it held no terror.
Born a virgin.
Died a virgin.
No runs, no hits, no errors.

By: gottabefunky

gottabefunky — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:25:15 -0800

And, the next morning:

Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.
--Ernest Hemmingway

By: gottabefunky

gottabefunky — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:25:46 -0800

...or if you're feeling musical:

DOH . . . . . . the stuff . . . that buys me beer . . .
RAY . . . . . .the guy that sells me beer . . .
ME . . . . . . . the guy . . . who drinks the beer . . .
FAR . . . . . .a long way to the bar . . .
SO . . . . . . I'll have another beer . . .
LA . . . . . . I'll have another beer . . .
TEA . . . . . no thanks, I'm drinking beer . . .
That will bring us back to . . . (looks into an empty glass)
DOH!

By: Nenna

Nenna — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:52:12 -0800

Dorian
It's also a good Barenaked Ladies Song.

By: mdn

mdn — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:40:54 -0800

Are there any humourous toasts that aren't for sexist pigs? I'm sensing a pattern here...

yo that.

By: prentiz

prentiz — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:50:52 -0800

I always use 'Confusion to the enemy' with flexible enemies to match the company and occassion.

By: Elsbet

Elsbet — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:18:25 -0800

With apologies to Monsignor Harte,

May the road rise to meet you
May the wind be always at your back
May the best day of your past be the worst day of your future
And may you be in heaven a half an hour before the devil even knows you're dead.

By: rxreed

rxreed — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:50:45 -0800

I used to know a clever toast,
But now I cannot think of it.
So fill your glass to anything,
And bless your souls, I'll drink it!

By: scarabic

scarabic — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:52:05 -0800

I like:

"In your eye, bitch!"

By: ?!

?! — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:22:38 -0800

No one has said: "Here's mud in your eye?" yet?

The Airplane meme: "Looks like I picked the wrong day to quit drinking"

I always liked: "Well, tomorrow's another day." Which, now that I think about it, really only worked with my ex-AA friends.

By: coriolisdave

coriolisdave — Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:05:24 -0800

gottabefunky
LA . . . . . . I'll have another beer . . .
In our version, we use "LA... ger is a type of beer!". Avoids the repeat...
My father has always been fond of "Here's lookin' up yer kilt".

By: NickDouglas

NickDouglas — Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:27:58 -0800

Original is "La, lalalalala beer."
"Far" is "a long long way for beer."

By: indiebass

indiebass — Thu, 03 Feb 2005 11:08:28 -0800

well, I saw a bunch, but didn't see my favorite. It was a good one my roommates and i would say together whenever we threw a party, but before people arrived. (generally, with a shot of Everclear, but... y'know... feel free to substitute).

"Gentlemen!
To a good selection,
no rejection,
a strong erection,
a clean injection,
and no infection!"

sorry, if you were looking for another non Pig one...!