Comments on: What apps does the IDM group use in concerts?

Question: What apps does the IDM group use in concerts?

EvilKenji — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:39:21 -0800

[IDM music filter] If you've ever watched an IDM group perform live, usually all they have is a laptop. What programs do they likely have running live performances? [MI]

what VST effects/instruments are they likely to use (what vst effects/instruments are good for live performances). How much is actually sequenced? What exactly does an IDM artist do during a live performance? Most of the time they just seem to be letting the sequencer play back everything and they dont look like they're doing anything (obviously i am wrong, but thats what it looks like).

By: yt

yt — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 05:04:21 -0800

Possibly Ableton Live?

By: loquacious

loquacious — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 05:07:57 -0800

I hear a lot about Max/MSP for the hardcore.

Some IDM artists may not be doing much dynamic 'performing'. I don't say that to deprecate IDM, but for some an entirely planned 'performance' is not only acceptable, but desirable, as some artists write entirely new material for each show. (But also see Sturgeon's law. Undoubtably IDM artists exist that are just fronting more than a little.)

Some artists only effect very intentional and subtle changes during a perfomance. Some - with programs like Max/MSP or custom written software - affect global and highly complex and interacting parameters with very little user interface activity or apparent dynamicism.

I DJ with Traktor in a pretty vanilla mouse and keyboard shortcut layout, and outside of me tapping and stomping my feet and wiggling in my chair it doesn't usually look like I'm doing much if you can't see the screen, but if I was replicating the same functions on a set of turntables and a mixer I'd probably need three or four hands and a robotic record changer.

By: fake

fake — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 06:02:01 -0800

I play electronic music live as well- there's a set up at the website in my profile, if you are interested.

Here in Fargo, ND, we have a set of about seven producers. Three of them could be considered IDM, two play shows. Both basically play back their sets directly from their tracker programs (lots of IDM is produced using archaic software trackers from the DOS days... venetian snares does this). They will have winamp or somesuch thing to play samples between songs, and that's about it. Others that I've seen basically do the same thing, playing back tracked (sequenced) music with just minor changes, filter tweaks, and etc. I personally think this is boring and don't often attend shows for this reason.

Personally, "liveness" is a big deal for me, and when I play live, I trigger every loop in Ableton's Live. I usually have my actions quantized to a half or an eighth note depending on how critical it is that they fall in time. Loops are usually 4-16 bars, and in any given slice of the music, there's one-sixteen concomitant loops. I've also got a MIDI controller keyboard with knobs, so I can influence faders and filters and effects in real time.

Ableton Live is a big one. Check out the forums at ableton's website to get a better idea of what plugins and such are being used.
I'd also be happy to answer any more specific questions you might have.

By: AlexReynolds

AlexReynolds — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 07:49:21 -0800

I use a variety of MIDI pattern sequencers to trigger instruments or samples:

• Numerology
• Max/MSP
• M
• Apple Logic 7

Some instruments and sample players:

• Ableton Live
• NI Absynth
• AA Tassman

With the most recent version of Live, it now becomes a proper sequencer, and I may begin to start using it for sequencing.

Some utilities I use to route and modify sound further:

• Soundflower (some use Jack)
• Audio Hijack Pro

I use the built-in audio adapter for live shows, because the noise is inaudible over conversations, bar fights, etc. When recording at home, I use an external sound adapter for better quality sound.

People use the keyboard to trigger samples or sequences, if you just see them perform with a laptop. Or they have preprogrammed sequences and do as little work as possible.

Others use "MIDI controllers", which are boxes with knobs, buttons or faders that are mapped beforehand to elements in these programs. This gives a lot of variety to pattern sequencing.

By: abcde

abcde — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:19:47 -0800

Using MIDI controllers definitely gives a more visible performance, and though I'm not sure how well you could simulate all the versatility of a mouse.

If I were playing using a laptop, I'd prefer to be horizontal relative to the audience, as that looks much cooler (as it does with piano and any other console type instrument).

By: Aquaman

Aquaman — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:35:10 -0800

Reason is also used live in lots of cool ways. It can be played, repatched, manipulated, and even "broken" in real time without disrupting the flow.

Very cool app. Can't wait for v.3.

By: Espoo2

Espoo2 — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:07:28 -0800

More and more these days, and more than anything else, I think, Ableton Live is used. It's _designed_ for live performances, ie, to never glitch/stutter/miss a beat, unless you want it to. If you start getting low on resources, and try to pull up a menu, it will draw very slowly or lag a bit because it always gives priority to the audio coming out.

You can use it with MIDI controllers, and it works just as well. It's always done the job for me.

I would never go on stage with most other hosts, as they just don't have the same stability.

By: AlexReynolds

AlexReynolds — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:33:19 -0800

It's _designed_ for live performances, ie, to never glitch/stutter/miss a beat, unless you want it to.

Adding new tracks or effects in mid-performance will cause blips.

Its internal MIDI clock is still broken, and has been since 1.0. You'll need to use something else if you want to synchronize timing for MIDI devices or non-Rewire hosts.

Its sound recording feature is still broken: sound recordings contain glitches on a nonperiodic basis.

So long as your Live performance is entirely structured beforehand, you will run into few problems.

If you like to build a track as you go, or use Live to synchronize MIDI devices or record audio, Live will not work well.

By: fake

fake — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:06:13 -0800

AlexReynolds, do you have any links to back that up? I routinely play live shows syncing an mc505 to Live, jamming and recording the output of the 505 at the same time. The MIDI clock is nothing short of stable, (in fact, my whole home studio is clocked to Live through an M-Audio FW410) and the audio has only glitched once (when a hard drive failed on stage).

I routinely peruse the ableton forums and have heard none of the problems you mention - do you have any technical information to back up what you've said?

Additionally, (and I'm not trying to flame...) how did that answer the question?

By: AlexReynolds

AlexReynolds — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:23:18 -0800

fake, search the Ableton forums on "MIDI clock". Here's one example. If you're a member of the Numerology Yahoo group, search that on "MIDI clock" and Live.

This problem has been observed in Rax, Logic and a number of other hosts. Syncing external devices to Live's MIDI clock will not work consistently. Ableton has not fixed the problem, probably to concentrate on adding MIDI sequencing.

Additionally, (and I'm not trying to flame...) how did that answer the question?

It answers the question by indicating known problems with the application, given the number of times it has been recommended by posters in this thread.

I like Live, don't get me wrong, and I use it frequently. But it has a few annoying problems that should be known by the user before a purchase is made.

If the user wants to sync external devices, use a separate MIDI clock.

In fact, I recommend the person asking the question not to listen to either of us, and to simply download the demo and try it for him or herself, if Live is of interest.

By: Dean King

Dean King — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:28:01 -0800

Syncing external devices to Live's MIDI clock will not work consistently. Ableton has not fixed the problem, probably to concentrate on adding MIDI sequencing.

That's interesting, because Reaktor, by Native Instruments, also has a MIDI Out bug that the company has refused to fix, although they haven't said why. (I use Reaktor ensembles and a Behringer MIDI controller for performances, btw.)

By: Napierzaza

Napierzaza — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:32:24 -0800

Reason 3 has been said to have better live support than 2.5 or less.

By: orange clock

orange clock — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:30:31 -0800

If you want to see great non laptop centered IDM see pan sonic sometime, they have a table filled with home brew analog gear that they fiddle with the whole show.

By: AlexReynolds

AlexReynolds — Sun, 09 Jan 2005 23:32:38 -0800

Szkieve did a set at last year's Mutek with a pair of PocketPCs.

By: kindall

kindall — Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:54:02 -0800

I bet they make that IDM music on laptops with LCD displays that they bought using money obtained from an ATM machine.

By: abcde

abcde — Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:58:55 -0800

kindall: Most obtuse snark ever ;)

By: llamateur

llamateur — Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:20:54 -0800

obtained from an ATM machine

Through the use of a PIN number, no doubt.