There's a sure-as-shooting sucker born a minute, but Ma'am you mighta been the minute in between.

November 10, 2009 10:10 AM

She spent $8,000 at a seminar on an "internet business opportunity". Now what?

My mother-in-law is bright and professional (she has been a CFO for 30 years), but one day last month, she informed us that she had attended a seminar and wanted us to be partners in her new internet business. She had already given them $7,000 for their "platinum professional package", which includes web site construction and all of the training she needs to market her web site. I agreed to help her get something started and went to work researching the company and found out easily by Googling that they have an F with the BBB and hundreds of unhappy customers who never made the six figures they were promised. She did not seem to think that this information was important to her situation, since she is obviously smarter and more motivated than the people who failed with their sites.

The next weekend she went to another seminar and they got $1,000 from her for "business development", which includes walking her through incorporating, setting up a merchant account and tax advice. Then, last Saturday, in a conference call with the two of us, their "success team" mentor convinced her to give her credit card number for another $15,000 charge for "coaching" us through the entire process step-by-step, doing all of the SEO, and a warranty that she would make her investment back in six months. I immediately convinced her to cancel the contract and get the charge reversed. I explained that if we need this part of their services later, we can always call them back and order it later when we can get something in writing and it's not just an impulse buy. She now has some understanding that they have been using high-pressure sales techniques on her to sell her things she did not need.

I am tip-toeing around this because I absolutely do not want to make her feel like she did something stupid. (Back-story: when she encouraged my developmentally disabled little sister-in-law to marry someone she knew for 5 weeks, who needed a green card and we strongly protested, the result was a two year rift and little sister being banned from speaking to us. Yes, he abused her and they are divorced already and he's been deported). So, she sometimes gets lost in hope and deep denial and I want to make sure she doesn't lose everything in the process.

I am committed to helping her build some kind of online business. I am sickened by the idea of giving this company any more money, but I know the high pressure salespeople will continue to call her because she's a good mark. (Side note: the company is in Utah, entirely Mormon and contributes a lot to Mormon politicians. I don't want any money going to fund anti marriage equality efforts ugh!)

She understands that it could take years to build an online presence and longer than that to recover her investment. She is looking for something to supplement her income and keep her busy after she retires. She is willing to take a loss on the $8,000 and not use this shady company, but is still really excited about the idea of starting from scratch to do this right. She trusts me completely at this point and is letting me take the reigns of the whole project. So, what now?

What can I tell her is a more realistic amount of money to spend on building an online store in one of the niche product areas she's interested in (green or pet products or green pet products)? I've found many quality drop-shippers and I've spoken to them on the phone and feel that they are legitimate. Is it even possible to build a business this way that can eventually bring in a regular monthly income?

How can I learn more about the process so that I can protect her from being further exploited? And how can I assertively protect her money without making her resent me? What other questions should I be asking?

posted by anonymous to computers & internet (30 comments total)

How old is your mother-in-law? While I've never known a career CFO with actual business savvy, every single one I've ever known are bean counters at best, stingy at worst, and so your mother-in-law's willingness to part with so much money so easily seems very out of character. Perhaps she's had small stroke, or is suffering from sort of undiagnosed illness. Is she on any medication, and does she drink? My own grandmother is on a number of heart medications, and also likes to drink, and this severely interferes with her judgement, especially money.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:15 AM on November 10, 2009

BTW, the only thing that has worked with my grandmother is the threat of becoming a ward of the state and being put into a home. My family has not threatened this, the local health authority has.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:16 AM on November 10, 2009

I don't have a lot of advice to give, but to respond to KokuRyu, a (perfectly healthy) CFO at a former company of mine got swindled in a not insignificant eBay scam. Smart accounting types can still make dumb mistakes -- sometimes it's easier to see the bottom line when it's someone else's and not your own. I wouldn't jump to any crazy ward-of-the-state medical conclusions.
posted by olinerd at 10:19 AM on November 10, 2009

Lots of CFOs have business savvy and lots of people savvy at business get swindled. The first comment is nonsensical.

In any event, the OP's story screams scam to me, and likely there is no way to get that money back. But consult with an attorney if you have any intention of trying to get the money back.
posted by dfriedman at 10:23 AM on November 10, 2009

How old is your mother-in-law? While I've never known a career CFO with actual business savvy, every single one I've ever known are bean counters at best, stingy at worst, and so your mother-in-law's willingness to part with so much money so easily seems very out of character. Perhaps she's had small stroke, or is suffering from sort of undiagnosed illness. Is she on any medication, and does she drink? My own grandmother is on a number of heart medications, and also likes to drink, and this severely interferes with her judgement, especially money.

This was my first thought as well. Something seems amiss here. Has she seen a doctor recently? Have there been any other behavioral or physical changes? Can you talk to other family members and see if they have noticed anything?

This is a pretty big 'lapse in judgment' and it's unclear how this happened to her.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 10:25 AM on November 10, 2009

What about looking at legitimate marketing courses at a local college? Or a course that takes you through the process of writing a business plan?

I don't know what your professional / other experience is, but if I were you, and didn't have online marketing expertise, I would want to find a reliable third-party to provide such expertise and guidance to my MIL, so she would have someone other than me to blame if the business fails. But I'm pretty cautious with family.

I agree it is surprising to fall for this kind of scam, and *may* indicate a health issue, but if I read your post correctly, the MIL encouraged her daughter (?) to marry someone whom she had known for a short while and who took advantage of her. Lapse in judgment, there, too, methinks. Maybe this is a recent pattern of bad decisions, which add up to alarm bells? Or maybe she just has blinders on in some cases, and that's just how she is.
posted by girlpublisher at 10:41 AM on November 10, 2009

One cure is more information, from sources that she will find credible. This takes time and hard work. Yuck, I have had to dissuade friends from the false promise hucksters before.

Scams like this tend to become more apparent when the scammers are unable to provide concrete examples of people that are successful, with details about their finances. So theoretical "if you work hard then you become wealthy" is very different from "it took Mr. Specific Jones 2 years with 3 employees to start turning a profit on this website with 1 more year until he is now making $10,000 a month above his expenses, and his detailed expenses and income are shown here." A CFO should be able to see weather a profit/loss statement contains enough detail to be credible. Naturally the scammers are unlikely to provide these kinds of details, which would be a red flag to any CFO who is thinking critically.

If she starts looking at it in these terms then she conceivably will see the folly of her ways. Again, third party information will help soften the blow. (Media Reports, BBB complaints, former scammed investors, etc.)

She will be smart to get out from a scam like this for under $10k. See if you can frame it terms of her being smart enough to realize now rather than later, after 15K or 30K more of losses.

By the way, in my experience there are some career CFOs that have a great deal of business savvy, some in fact have more than their CEO counterparts.
posted by SantosLHalper at 10:42 AM on November 10, 2009

Maybe you should introduce her to organizations like Kiva, so she can understand how small amounts of money -- far less than anything she's invested so far -- can make substantial differences in people's everyday lives.
posted by hermitosis at 10:44 AM on November 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Back-story: when she encouraged my developmentally disabled little sister-in-law to marry someone ... the result was a two year rift and little sister being banned from speaking to us.

Wait, what? You want to protect this person's feelings because... what? Your MIL manipulated your developmentally disabled sister into an abusive, illegal marriage, and when you tried to protect her from this seriously bad idea, your MIL "banned" you from speaking to your sister? And your take-away is "I made the mistake of hurting MIL's feelings by objecting the my sister's mistreatment, so this time I will spare MIL's feelings by cooperating in her shady online business venture"?

Unless I'm misunderstanding your back-story or the connection you draw between it and your current situation, your MIL is not a well person, and protecting her feelings (or just not disabusing her of her false assumptions and bad ideas) is likely to cause someone else to be hurt, possibly you. I think you need to step back--waaaaay back--from any business connection with your MIL.
posted by Meg_Murry at 10:44 AM on November 10, 2009 [3 favorites]

You don't have to make her feel stupid in illustrating to her how what she's doing is a mistake. You could back this up by compiling an inevitable flood of free information for exactly what she's trying to do here.
posted by rhizome at 10:47 AM on November 10, 2009

(I'm pretty sure the abusive husband banned the sister from speaking to the family, not the MIL)
posted by brainmouse at 10:48 AM on November 10, 2009

Seconding the getting-checked-out-ideas.

But assuming everything is okay with her otherwise and she wants to move forward, getting her involved in the business world might be a good idea. There should be business organizations in your area that are legitimate professional organizations that can be used for networking and attending seminars on business, etc. Somewhere, there will surely be a legitimate tried and true, "So you want to start a business?" type seminar or class that actually takes you through the steps of formulating a business plan, getting the capital, etc. The Small Business Association might be one place to start. The Entrepreneurs' Organization might be another as might be the United States Association for Small Business and Entrepreneurship.

Can you get her in touch with other small business owners in your area? Other female business owners? Hearing their stories and how they went through the start-up process may give you both ideas about how to proceed with hers and in your locale.

But again, having her visit a doctor for an exam should most certainly be the first step.
posted by zizzle at 10:55 AM on November 10, 2009

I'm pretty sure the abusive husband banned the sister from speaking to the family, not the MIL

Ah, that makes more sense. Still, her role in the situation was to promote an incredibly bad, harmful, awful idea that had serious consequences for the OP's sister and then to get upset when the OP voiced legitimate concerns. I stand by my initial thought that this woman is not well, and that participating in one of her plans (whether it's a sham marriage or a business venture) is likely to harm the OP. If there isn't a way to have an honest conversation about the Utah company swindling her, I don't think there's a safe way to participate in her business.
posted by Meg_Murry at 10:57 AM on November 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

I am tip-toeing around this because I absolutely do not want to make her feel like she did something stupid.

Huh? You're coddling her so some scam artists can bleed her dry?

The phrase "Killing with kindness" comes to mind.
posted by meadowlark lime at 11:09 AM on November 10, 2009

I think all you can do is let her do whatever she wants. It's her money, and if, even after reading all the information, she's still intent on doing it, then you just let her. Think of it as a club.

Another thing you can do is reach out to a reporter at your local paper to do an expose on the scam. There's nothing you directly can do because your mother doesn't trust you.

Also, the little sister thing is a whole separate issue. You could have gotten a social worker involved or reported the case to immigration officers with proof of her being mentally disabled and unable to make these kinds of decisions.
posted by anniecat at 11:16 AM on November 10, 2009

Gosh, I can't imagine spending more then a few hundred dollars getting a side web business up. Wait to invest the bigger bucks until you are sure you've found a profitable niche first! (And that's really what it's all about-- finding an under-served niche and capitalizing on it. Green pet supplies seems like a good place to start to me.)

There are so many free (or cheap) places to start learning. For starters, I'd immerse myself in places like the SitePoint forums, and browse my local library and Amazon. I figure if you aren't willing to put in time researching and learning about the online marketplace (and you don't need to spend $xx,xxx to do that), then the chances of you succeeding there aren't too high to begin with.
posted by scottatdrake at 11:18 AM on November 10, 2009

(Side note: the company is in Utah, entirely Mormon and contributes a lot to Mormon politicians. I don't want any money going to fund anti marriage equality efforts ugh!)

Okay, if I were you, I wouldn't support this kind of thing either. But you have to remember, it's your mother's money and you can't be so controlling. It would be very wrong of you to decide she crazy. Perhaps she thinks you're crazy and wouldn't spend money on things you spend on. It's her money and so long as she isn't in physical danger and functional, she can do whatever she wants. Scaring and forcing her to do things your way because you threaten to have her committed is very wrong. Intimidation is not okay.
posted by anniecat at 11:19 AM on November 10, 2009

follow-up from the OP

It was mother-in-law, not creepy, deported ex, who kept little
sister-in-law from communicating with us. My husband was shocked and
devastated. She rationalized this by claiming that we were upsetting
SIL by not being supportive of the marriage. Like I said, DEEP denial.
I don't want to risk something like this happening again, so I'm on
eggshells. Yes, yes a thousand times yes, she is not an entirely well
person sometimes, but this is my husband's family and I'm trying to
keep us all on good terms. I understand the dysfunctionality of this
and how that makes it unwise to be in business with her. I'm not
investing my money and I'm prepared to walk away if things get
weirder.

Sister-in-law has a team of doctors, psychologists, social workers and
aides who were all aware of the details of the situation. Sure, we
could have tried to have him deported immediately, but that's not what
little SIL, who is an adult and legally competent, wanted. We were
completely shut out of their lives and only found out about the abuse
after the divorce was in process because she wasn't allowed to talk to
us. Yes, I understand the consequence of being in a familial or
business relationship with someone who can manipulate us all like
this. I promise not to come back and waste your time whining about it
here when it falls apart again.

As far as recent events that might cause a lapse in judgment, MIL's 98
year old mother, of whom she was the primary caretaker for the last 8
years of her life, died in April. I'm sure the lapse is stress
related. She is otherwise in amazing physical health. Both parents
lived well into their 90s with no major illnesses.

There is some understanding now that she was being swindled, but she
has not given up on the idea of building a business from scratch. I
have given her the BBB report and given her copies of the complaints.
She was on the phone with me when I blasted the "mentor" and got her
$15,000 charged back. I'm not coddling her. She is ready to move on to
plan B. Sorry for the confusion about that in my original question.

The main reason she fell so hard for their scam is that she wants a
business to happen for her, whether it's by me or the Utah people. She
wants it to happen with her financial investment, but not a time
investment. I'm ok with putting the time in.I know it's not the wisest
thing to be getting involved in, but I have the time to do it and if
nothing else, it will at least be a learning experience.

So. I really do appreciate the concern for the crazy family dynamics
and I understand that I put that out there for critique. I'm also
hoping to get some answers that address the questions have about
building and marketing the web site and if anyone has experience with
drop-shipping.

Thanks AskMe. You're the greatest!

posted by jessamyn at 11:58 AM on November 10, 2009

"If there isn't a way to have an honest conversation about the Utah company swindling her, I don't think there's a safe way to participate in her business."

I heartily nth Meg_Murry!


"She trusts me completely at this point and is letting me take the reigns of the whole project."

This is a fool's errand you are proposing.

OP, you indicate your MIL has a history of making poor snap decisions. Then she must also have a pattern for dealing with the consequences of her bad decisions. What is it? Does her pattern include some sort of scapegoating?

I think the way she deals with her poor decisions is a strong indication of whatever role you are being asked to play in this particular situation/business/drama.

If you pursue this venture with your MIL, I'm certain you will be forced aquiesce to her whims from time to time. You will end up giving in to her whims, even though it will be against your better judgement, and even though her whims may put the business in jeopardy. Eventually, when the whole thing goes belly-up or she gets bored of the business - OP - your MIL might end up blaming YOU for any losses incurred.

If I read your question and the family drama back story correctly, I fear this is the logical conclusion to draw from all this. Sorry.


Here is my advice:

Don't get involved. DO have a strong, short conversation with her.

If she can drop $8,000.00 on pure folly, she's got plenty of money to waste. Let her.

You might put whatever you have to say in an email, so that she can't twist the content of your words. Explain to her in one or two sentences that the Utah company is an obvious scam. Tell her she should hang up on those people if they ever call her again because they are stealing from her. Tell her if she wants to start up a business - great! She should hire someone (recent college grad?) on a part-time basis to help her do research, incorporate, chose web hosting, implement a shopping cart, fulfillment house, marketing, google placement, etc. It's easy, lots of people do this. A recent college grad will know how to do this. Tell her you won't be involved in the business but that you wish her luck with her endeavors.

And because it bears repeating...

"If there isn't a way to have an honest conversation about the Utah company swindling her, I don't think there's a safe way to participate in her business."

posted by jbenben at 11:58 AM on November 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

She's not trusting your judgement. Who does she trust? Does she have any (previous) business colleagues or even a good neighbor who can advise her to stay away from this scam?

Also, she probably feels the obligation to get her 'money's worth' out of the program.
Discuss setting writing down a budget over a length of time (say 3 months). Discuss & agree what would happen if the budget runs out. No scare tactics, just business logic.
posted by artdrectr at 12:02 PM on November 10, 2009

I might try directing her to an organization like SCORE that can help her with some of this consulting stuff without charging her a lot of money for the privilege.

Beyond that, is there anything she likes to shop for that she may be able to resell? Pick a product, find distributors. Put a simple shopping cart in place -- you may even want to offload this to a third part like Amazon or Ebay or one of those while you test your theories about what sells since that kind of programming functionality will be the hardest to get set up.

Then, it's just a matter of figuring out how to market the site and drive traffic to it.
posted by willnot at 12:07 PM on November 10, 2009

"She trusts me completely at this point and is letting me take the reigns of the whole project."

And, I'm assuming, the blame for the $20,000+ she's spending on air. Tell her no-dice, you think this is a scam, and get yourself out now. You're about 3 payments too late in telling her this, but there's not much you can do about it now. With her track history, do you really think she's going to accept responsibility for this boondogle? Why are you even talking to this woman?
posted by The Light Fantastic at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2009

I think there are two questions: 1) How can MIL get an online business to "happen for her"? and 2) What should the OP's role be?

The second question must necessarily be informed by the family dynamics, healthy boundaries, and all the other stuff I mentioned in my earlier comment. However, I think there are constructive answers to the first question that neither imperil the family relationships nor commit the OP to creating and running a business for her MIL. In my mind this would be something like the MIL buying an existing business or funding a startup company.
posted by Meg_Murry at 12:52 PM on November 10, 2009

I don't think this is a relationship you are going to benefit from expanding, deepening, and complicating.

This sounds like you're better off pursuing calm, rational, respectful distance, not entanglement.

It kind of seems like you know this, but are pursuing it anyway and I'm not sure what your motivation is -- I don't think it's going to deepen family ties in the end, or mend fences.

I think the path you're on is going to lead to more drama and pain and I can't imagine any benefits that are worth it.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:59 PM on November 10, 2009

She trusts me completely at this point and is letting me take the reigns of the whole project. So, what now?

You should not do that.

I am committed to helping her build some kind of online business.

You should not be. Various details in your question make clear that you're not qualified to do this. (Added to which, you're basically asking us, "How do I do this?") If your mother-in-law is committed to owning an online business, despite her apparent lack of experience, then she should seek out a partner who, unlike you, can contribute relevant expertise. Perhaps she could reach out to someone at a local business school, or someone in her professional network from 30 years as a CFO.

It's admirable that you want to help a family member. But from the facts you laid out, it would seem unwise to help this particular family member in this particular fashion; and regardless, you're not qualified.

I'm ok with putting the time in.I know it's not the wisest thing to be getting involved in, but I have the time to do it and if nothing else, it will at least be a learning experience.

You indicated that part of her motivation for pursuing this business is concern for her income, either before or during retirement. I would reply to this last comment of yours that if your mother-in-law is a multimillionaire with a generous streak and money to burn, then go ahead and let her bankroll your time and "learning experience." It doesn't sound like she is, though, in which case you should stop and think some more about what you're saying.
posted by cribcage at 1:06 PM on November 10, 2009 [2 favorites]

Why are you even talking to this woman?

Bears repeating. I know you're actually trying to get concrete answers about how to build this business, and I don't think it's that people are ignoring your question as much as feeling like there's no way to answer this question genuinely without saying: this sounds like a bad idea on several different levels.

If you want to do something, try introducing her to Etsy or something. But in no way would I recommend anything with anything requiring any more investment of any resource.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:09 PM on November 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

Run. Run as far away as fast as you can. To be more blunt than other commenters have been, you have 'Fall Guy' written across your forehead.

When your SIL's marriage that was 100% your MIL's idea went wrong, was it her fault? No, no, no, blame someone else!

She knows she's being conned and wants you to take control? Warning bells right there again. Then every penny she loses is your fault, your bad business, if it had just been her it would have been all ok.

You're in a vulnerable position for this sort of thing anyway - people who marry in are intrinsically more 'suspect' than blood relations. You'll be easy to blame "Oh, it was going just fine until X's wife started running things" (add in undertones of 'hussy' if appropriate).

Staying in this will not maintain good relationships. Getting out could be messy; I've not got any really good ideas for disengaging (a sudden attack of voluntary work that means you don't have the time?). But if you get out at least you can get the bad blood over and done with, and have a smaller amount of financial loss to tarnish your name among the rest of the family.

Note: I am a born pessimist, and there are some utterly manipulative bitches in my family. It is possible that OP's MIL is nicer than my family - but the story about the marriage makes me think that she isn't.
posted by Coobeastie at 1:19 PM on November 10, 2009 [1 favorite]

I don't mean to pile on here but dear god RUN!

The countdown until this con job is YOUR FAULT has already started.

Read your own original post and your follow up and ask yourself if this were someone else would you advise them to increase their involvement with this person?
posted by Cosine at 1:46 PM on November 10, 2009

Maybe she has early-onset Alzheimer's.
posted by matteo at 2:15 PM on November 10, 2009

Smart people get conned. A friend of mine worked for a bankruptcy attorney, and it was amazing how many cases they started to get of people who lost everything through those Nigerian scam artists (this was before it was so well known) - these were not morons who could barely read Pennysaver, they were smart, intelligent, professional people.

SOmetimes these people make bad decisions.

OP, everyone here has made good suggestions. I really recommend SCORE, or the SBDC in your local state will also likely be very helpful.

Is it a possibility to reach out to whoever at your local college or community college is teaching a course in ecommerce or even just the internet? If this authority figure can explain things to your MIL it might help.

But you cannot get involved in this because this isn't a free way for you to learn about starting a business, it's a free way for you to get emotionally tortured. I am sorry about that.
She trusts you, so guide her to sources that are helpful and informative.
posted by micawber at 3:15 PM on November 10, 2009 [2 favorites]