The over-anxious job hunter

November 9, 2009 9:34 AM

My son may lose the chance at a good job due to extreme impatience.

My son got his degree in Finance almost a year ago. Normally, this would be a really marketable degree with good job prospects, even as a recent grad. Due to the crap economy, however, he couldn't find a job in his field and after 4 months of diligent job hunting (i.e., making job hunting his "job" and sending out scores of resumes every day), he ended up getting hired by a national car rental chain. Not only is this not in his field--at all--but it's a pretty sucky job for him. I didn't know car rental customers were so hostile to the guys who rent them cars. He is at his wit's end, and desperately wants to find another job. He continues to send out resumes.

I have worked at a company for 4 years. We have been through our ups and downs, but business is booming, and the company's very small Finance group is looking for people. My son had a chat with our CEO earlier this year, (not really due to any efforts on my part--his wife cuts the CEO's hair and he really thinks highly of her. I believe that the CEO was making an effort to talk to my son mostly because he likes his hairstylist and a little because I work here and I'm a pretty good and loyal employee.) The day my son met with the CEO (ostensibly just to learn more about corporate Finance and the business), he introduced my son to the Director of Finance at our company and my son had a mini-interview with the guy on the spot. He was taken off guard, to be sure, because he wasn't expecting that. Shortly thereafter, the Director of Finance offered my son a part-time contract position, but my son had to decline because he couldn't afford to do that. The car rental company job actually pays more than he could have had as a contractor with our company, plus the car rental company provides health insurance, which contractors don't get.

Then, a couple of months ago, he was contacted by the CEO and later the Director asking his salary requirements, and my son was then interviewed over the phone by a member of the Billing department. He felt the interview went well was told he would be contacted by the Billing department manager for either a phone or in-person interview the following week. That was over 4 weeks ago. He has sent a couple of follow-up emails to the person he interviewed with, and they haven't sent him a response. He is beyond frustrated and can't understand why they can't send him at least a cursory response to his emails. I obviously have stayed out of the whole thing, and haven't talked to anyone in Billing as to what's going on. I'm not "that Mom." I do know both of the people fairly well--the one who interviewed him on the phone and the manager he was told would contact him for another interview--but I still don't feel it's appropriate to ask them what's going on with this.

I can certainly understand his frustration, and can empathize. As someone who has job hunted many, many times, I have seen this happen time and again. Two weeks ago, the Manager of Accounting was let go, so the Finance dept. now consists of the Director, 2 Billing people, and one other person. They desperately need somebody, and I believe they were given headcount to hire (why else would my son have been asked for his salary requirements, and given a phone interview?).

I am still going to stay out of this, and not talk to anyone in Billing about this. I do feel, given my own personal experience, that if they weren't interested in hiring him, they would've already sent him a "no thanks" email by this point. I also feel that with the departure of a key member of the team, they are up to their eyeballs in work, which would definitely stall a low-priority task like interviewing and hiring an entry-level employee.

Now my son wants to send yet another email, this time to the Director--a thinly veiled "shit or get off the pot" kind of email. I strongly discouraged this, but he won't budge, so I told him that I needed to review it before he sends it so he doesn't shoot himself in the foot. This morning, he asked me to write the email for him.

My questions--FINALLY:

*Do you agree with me that if they weren't interested by now, they would have told him so?
*Do you agree that this is a low-priority item for a small and extremely overworked group?
*Do you agree that the ABSOLUTE WORST THING he can do would be to send yet another email--to anybody in the group, especially the Director?

He has no other current job leads, much less interviews lined up. I keep telling him to be patient and that things like this can take even months to come to fruition.

What can I do to get him to calm down and not contact them any more? I have been on the hiring side of things, and personally, I always hated the pests who just wouldn't be patient. Am I wrong in believing that any more contact from him would be a VERY BAD THING? He sent his 2nd follow-up email to the Billing person who interviewed him over the phone a week and a half ago, with no response. BTW, I'm not defending these people's lack of responses to him. I consider this to be very poor business etiquette. Even if they're really, really busy, even a quick "we're swamped right now, please be patient with us" response would be better than leaving the poor guy swinging in the wind for over a month, and not just because he's my son.

I would appreciate any feedback you guys have--especially from HR people or people involved in hiring employees for their company.

Sorry this post is the size of War and Peace, but there was a LOT of backstory here.

Thanks a million, hivemind!

posted by angiewriter to work & money (33 comments total)

Networking is the name of the game.

Repeatedly haranguing people with whom you interviewed for a job is not.

Let your son shoot himself in the foot and fail. It's a learning experience, and one he has to experience sooner or later.

Encourage him to network with people, not merely send out resumes.
posted by dfriedman at 9:41 AM on November 9 [2 favorites]

Let it go. Your son needs to make his own mistakes.
posted by sunshinesky at 9:41 AM on November 9 [8 favorites]

Also: your profile says you are located in Austin. I assume your son is, too.

Austin is the capital of Texas, and, as such, has innumerable opportunities to network with companies of all sizes as well as government. (Though the peculiarities of TX state government make this different than in other state capitals.)

If your son is in Austin or its environs the opportunities for him to network are boundless.
posted by dfriedman at 9:43 AM on November 9

@sunshinesky--I know you're right--in theory. But as a parent, I desperately want him to have a better job and hate that he's being treated so badly at his current job while possibly having a chance at a better job that's also in his field. If this were a friend of mine rather than my son, I would've definitely asked the folks in Billing what was up (in a nice, non-pushy way, of course) by this point. I'm trying to do the right thing here, but in my heart, I know I need to stay out of it. However, if somebody out there in a hiring position thinks I'm worrying too much about this and it's not crazy inappropriate asking the folks in Billing what's up, I'd love to know.
posted by angiewriter at 9:47 AM on November 9

Here are some reasons they might not have hired him yet:

• They are still wrangling over the necessary allocation of resources, which would be my suspicion. Just because they gave an apparently-qualified candidate an interview for an unadvertised position doesn't mean that they can fill it. Learning salary requirements is instrumental in deciding whether they can afford it.
• They have too much else to do, as you say.
• They are currently waiting to hear from another more desirable candidate.

Anyway, I agree with you entirely. He needs to learn some empathy here. There is zero upside to him sending a "shit or get off the pot" e-mail. Does he think that they will suddenly say "oh, we're so sorry, please, please take our job right away?" The chances of that are almost nil. More likely, he has already been irritating these busy people (does not excuse their lack of etiquette, but that is another question), and this will just be the nail in the coffin showing that he would not be a good co-worker/employee.

Don't get involved yourself. You're too close to the situation—you asking is basically the same thing as him asking.
posted by grouse at 9:48 AM on November 9 [1 favorite]

@dfriedman--he has sent resumes out EVERYWHERE in this town, including those jobs posted by the city, state, and federal government. Most of the time, no responses. Other times, no-thank-you's. The problem lies (even in Austin) in the fact that there have been a LOT of layoffs in this town, and experienced, unemployed Finance people in Austin can easily be had for what an entry-level person would be paid. It's as bad here as anywhere else, believe me.
posted by angiewriter at 9:49 AM on November 9

I was in the job market about three months ago, so I know what it's like these days. Unfortunately, leaving people hanging is just how it is. (That, along with "How much are you looking for in salary?" are realities of job hunting in this environment.)

There's no use in over-analyzing the situation. So stop. Let it go. And tell your son that's how it goes.

Has he gone on linkedin.com? That is an amazing way to "meet" people who are open to networking. Networking is important, but it's not the end-all, be-all. It really depends on your local economy.

Also encourage him to be the best he can be at his current job. A big part of being employable--and therefore employed--is soft skills, ie how you get along with people and what your attitude is like. Customer service is probably the hardest field to work in, yet it's paid the least and is very stressful. But he can learn a ton from his experiences in his current job.
posted by FergieBelle at 9:50 AM on November 9

First two answers do it for me. Let him fail a few times. Otherwise he learns nothing.

I know he's your own kid and so it's hard to see him fall... but he did learn to ride a bike eventually, right? If you'd kept holding him upright forever, that wouldn't have happened.

(Also, he would never have met any girls.)
posted by rokusan at 9:50 AM on November 9

@dfriedman--he has sent resumes out EVERYWHERE in this town, including those jobs posted by the city, state, and federal government. Most of the time, no responses. Other times, no-thank-you's. The problem lies (even in Austin) in the fact that there have been a LOT of layoffs in this town, and experienced, unemployed Finance people in Austin can easily be had for what an entry-level person would be paid. It's as bad here as anywhere else, believe me.

You asked for our feedback and now you're arguing with us?

Sending resumes is not the same as networking.

Your defensiveness is as much a turnoff as your son's impatience would be.
posted by dfriedman at 9:51 AM on November 9

Let your son handle this however he wants to. If he gets the job, they're going to be his co-workers, not yours. If his instinctive reactions for dealing with the situation are completely wrong, delaying that realization is not helpful.

It's hard to ascertain what they're thinking based on a non-response, so in response to your specific questions, it's hard to tell. Based on my experience screening applicants, I'd say that the pushier the applicant seemed, the less likely I was to consider them. That's got a lot to do with my personality and the way I like to work.
posted by dubold at 10:01 AM on November 9

@driedman--I am sorry to seem defensive. The reason I provided such a long backstory was to try and address any possible "has he tried/done this?" and/or questions to begin with. Yes, he is on Linked In. As a recent college graduate, he doesn't have a lot of networking experience or contacts in his field. He has talked to some of his former professors about good ideas/leads in his job-hunt, and his talk with our CEO was (in both our minds) a networking opportunity also for getting information about his field and getting more contacts (our CEO was formally our CFO). Neither of us ever expected a job offer/opportunity out of it.

I have been part of Corporate America for 25 years. I honestly do know the difference between networking and sending out resumes, and have explained this to him on many occasions.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and criticizing me isn't really helpful--I'm trying to find out if I need to let this go, or whether it's not really that inappropriate to casually ask the Billing people what's up with this. Like I said, if it were a friend, I would have asked long ago. I know this isn't the same thing, though, so I'm trying to get advice on doing the best thing.

@ grouse--thanks a million! Yours was an awesome response, as was yours @ FergieBelle!
posted by angiewriter at 10:02 AM on November 9

She’s not being defensive, she’s just frustrated.

Tell your son not to do it, but frame it as a personal favor to you – if he sours his relationship with the CEO/Finance department, it could have an impact on YOUR career with these people. Who would want to do that to their own mom?
posted by Think_Long at 10:03 AM on November 9 [5 favorites]

But as a parent, I desperately want him to have a better job and hate that he's being treated so badly at his current job while possibly having a chance at a better job that's also in his field.

Your son will find a job. He's young, and while he might not be wealthy, at this stage of his life he has plenty of time. Keep in mind that, as a rule of thumb, it takes 1 month of job searching for every $10k in salary (i.e., $50k = 5 months of job searching).

If it is taking your son longer than 6 months to find a job, he needs to rethink and recalibrate what he is doing.

I would question your assumptions about the poor state of the job market where you are. Your son has to be positive, he has to be tenacious, he has to be adaptable, he has to be tenacious.

If he is all of these things (and who would not want their child to be all of these things) he should find a job.

Focus on providing positive support for your son. As a parent you have to be a leader, and cannot succumb to nattering negativity.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:05 AM on November 9

@Think_Long--Wow! I never even thought of that. Thank you for your response (and for defending my non-defensiveness, haha). This is why I love MeFi--I always get so many perspective from posting questions. :)
posted by angiewriter at 10:06 AM on November 9

@ KokuRyu: on your tenacious comments: he (though not I) would argue that he IS being tenacious in this situation. I believe, however, as most of you do, that there's tenacious, and then there's pesky...
posted by angiewriter at 10:08 AM on November 9

I don't know how it works in finance but you have to badger people for jobs in TV news. I got two jobs because a week after the interview I called the news director every day and left a message until he or she called me back. These people are not just busy. They are insanely busy. Sending emails doesn't work. Call call call.
posted by Zambrano at 10:09 AM on November 9

@ Zambrano: hrm...maybe Finance job hunters didn't use to badger to get a job, but in this economy, maybe they have to. Thank you for yet another helpful perspective!
posted by angiewriter at 10:15 AM on November 9

Unfortunately, leaving people hanging is just how it is.

I don't see the harm in talking to your son about this. I think most people who start job hunting get the wrong idea from tv, movies, and even stories from their parents. When I left college in the late 90s, I certainly expected that people I sent resumes to would get back to me - at least with a rejection email or letter - within a reasonable period of time.

But no one does- they just don't respond at all anymore. I recently had two interviews at a very large company, and they both went well. At the end of the second interview the HR person said: "We want you to come back and talk to the development team. Are you free tomorrow or next week?" I said "yes." I never ever heard from them again.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:16 AM on November 9 [1 favorite]

I'm not "that Mom." I do know both of the people fairly well--the one who interviewed him on the phone and the manager he was told would contact him for another interview--but I still don't feel it's appropriate to ask them what's going on with this.

I'm actually pretty surprised at this. Can you clarify why, exactly, you don't want to get involved at the extremely minimal level of just asking what's up? Are you afraid it will hurt his chances, or afraid that it will reflect badly on you? Dropping by the office of a work colleague, *especially* one that you know, in order to ask about a stalled hiring decision for a friend or family member seems pretty par-for-the-course to me. I can't imagine that they wouldn't be able to tell you whether your son should continue sitting tight (because they're busy but still interested) or whether the ship has sailed and he should be looking elsewhere.

If you are worried about how it reflects on you, I'd say that I'd be much more worried about an angry email being sent to the Director than about coworkers being a bit annoyed at you checking in on the status of your son's interview.

I think you should reconsider your stance about not getting involved, if your involvement is limited to asking people you already know about whether the position is still open, and whether your son is still being actively considered or whether he needs to look elsewhere.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:16 AM on November 9 [2 favorites]

Did your son graduate from college there in Austin? If not, a good way to network would be to get in touch with his department and see if they can put him in contact with other alumni in his field in the area, and organize a meet-up over coffee or drinks or something. Also, thank goodness he's already got a job, especially one that provides insurance, while he's looking for work in his field. He's already a step ahead of the game in this economy.
posted by scarykarrey at 10:18 AM on November 9

You're too close to the situation—you asking is basically the same thing as him asking.

Exactly, but it's almost worse, because he's a grown man and you're his mother. Continue to encourage him to not bother anyone too much. I've been on the receiving end of e-mails like that, and they always come off as entitled, rude and out of touch with the reality of hiring.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:20 AM on November 9 [1 favorite]

@ iminurmefi: The reason I don't want to get involved at even this minimal of a level worries me that, as grouse said, "You're too close to the situation—you asking is basically the same thing as him asking." I worry that I will come off as a buttinski Mom, who needs to leave this alone.
posted by angiewriter at 10:21 AM on November 9

*Do you agree with me that if they weren't interested by now, they would have told him so?

No. Obviously the polite thing to do would be to let him know if they weren't interested but the fact they have refused to respond to 2 follow up emails already says politeness isn't top of their agenda. Not responding doesn't mean they're still interested (it doesn't necessarily mean they're not either), it can frequently mean they just can't be bothered or don't wont to have to send rejection letters.

I don't think its at all inappropriate of you to have a casual chat with the people involved, given that you know them quite well. If they were complete strangers it would be different. If it were me, the next time I saw them I'd casually enquire as to wft is going on. I don't think that makes you that mum, your son has made a good faith effort to handle this on his own and followed general etiquette in this situation and quite frankly they've been down right rude by completely ignoring him.
posted by missmagenta at 10:21 AM on November 9 [1 favorite]

A "hit or get off the pot" email is a bad idea. But your son may want to send email updates every month or so letting the interviewers know what new skills he's been picking up from his current job and that he's still interested in a position with your company until he 1. gets a rejection notice or 2. gets a different job. Also, sometimes instead of emailing, just give a firendly call to say "hey, i'm still interested..."
posted by WeekendJen at 10:51 AM on November 9 [1 favorite]

I worry that I will come off as a buttinski Mom, who needs to leave this alone.

Okay, but just as a data point: this sort of inquiry (and let me stress, inquiry, not demand that they give him the job or call him back or take any specific action--just an inquiry as to the status) is the sort of thing I wouldn't hesitate to do for a not-particularly-close friend, or old college roommate, or friend of one of my close friends. I don't think I'm exceptional in this regard, although your industry may vary. I tend to think that it wouldn't be that weird in your workplace based on the fact that he apparently got an interview based on being married to your Director's hairdresser. That sort of thing says to me that the company you work for doesn't frown on using personal connections in the workplace.

Heck, from your work colleagues' point-of-view (the ones who are failing to call him back, despite promising to be in touch)--I'd be *mortified* if I found out that I had been blowing off the son of someone I worked with and was friendly with, even if I had good reasons like being totally overwhelmed with department changes and having too many applications to respond to. It might be a bit awkward to have that person come by my office and lightly ask about whether the position was open and whether her son was still being considered, but it'd be much much worse to find out weeks down the road that said son had found another job after I never called back.

It seems like you're in a unique position in this one case of being able to relieve a lot of the stress your son has from being stuck in the not-knowing position (it's way worse than just knowing that you didn't get the job, if that happens at least you can move on), and while I respect not wanting to be an overly-involved mother, I kind of wonder if your caution isn't blinding you to the fact that this is a pretty small thing to do, so small that you probably wouldn't have minded doing it for someone other than your son.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:57 AM on November 9 [1 favorite]

I’m not going to address “is this appropriate”, because other posters have already done and will continue to do a great job of addressing that issue.

However, I’d like to offer other suggestions.

I’m going to second Dr. Friedman. Networking does not = sending out the resume blindly to everyone. Rather, it involves talking to people, learning more about jobs that may not be posted/advertised, finding ways to better target his resume, finding ways to improve his job skills further, etc. I’m a coward and am frequently in places where I don’t know people – here are a few things he can do:

1. Where does he want to work? Google those companies and look at those webpages and job titles for people in those job positions – pull the email.
2. Google “Austin plus business job [insert that specific title there]” and see what comes up. You can also be more specific (when I wanted to network, get info about changing fields, and find people who had something in common – I added the term PhD – so I could start my email with “I also have a PhD and would like to change fields – can you help/can we meet/have coffee”)
3. Email these complete strangers from 1 and 2. Be polite and ask if they would be willing to answer more questions/give guidance so he can look for a job in field X – limited to a 20 minute conversation, coffee or the phone, their preference. People will ignore you, but a lot of others will help. In my experience, people really try to help – contacts, how to improve your resume for the field, etc.
4. Another good source of info/people – is there a professional organization he can join “American Society of Business workers” (random name, I don’t know his field) – I have found organizations for a given skill set have forums, email lists, meetings – he can go to a meeting and/or email and ask for more info. I don’t know this for his field…google.

That was my start to networking and changing fields a few years ago – I didn’t know anyone in the field or in my city when I started.

Another idea – email every business in the industry he wants to work in. You can go to the library and ask for this type of database (in the NYC library it is called RefUSA – lists business by type and location) – and gives you the phone number. Or just google “business (plus the other descriptors) plus email list” He should find something. Write a professional email “I am XXXX, I just graduated from business school, I am available to do skill X, Y, and Z” – part time, full-time, please let me know if you have any available positions.

Another random idea – why not take that position as a contracting job even if the hours are limited? There are other solutions to this. Your son can run a small business and offer service X to other people – make the car job a part time job. But your son already had an offer to do a small contracting gig – get more clients and it can work (and up the rate within a few months). Or could he do a combo of work at the car job, work at the small contracting gig on the side, and do things to get any other skill sets he wants. He could volunteer 2 hours per week helping with (insert business skill, writing, whatever) - as long as he can create something he can use as a sample later/or the nonprofit as reference later, whatever.

Why limit the search to Austin? Some jobs pay for your interview, the move, etc.

Finally...your son has my empathy. I still remember those tough jobs. I used to dread every single day - those jobs will come to an end, though. Good luck.
posted by Wolfster at 11:27 AM on November 9 [1 favorite]

You write:
"Two weeks ago, the Manager of Accounting was let go, so the Finance dept. now consists of the Director, 2 Billing people, and one other person."

What's the story with this? Why was this person let go/fired? And why would your son want to work for an "employer" who un-employs people?
posted by BostonTerrier at 11:35 AM on November 9

I recently created a new position in my department. It took two months to get it done. the guy I needed to sign off on it was totally slammed and I had to remind him regularly that the previously agreed upon position needed filling and that the candidate I wanted was available and keen to get started. The candidate meanwhile was in pretty regular contact with me. It wasn't annoying at all, but I believe in being as transparent as possible, so kept him as informed about the process as I could. I would find nothing wrong with your son sending an e-mail a week to enquire as to the status.

Let me also throw in another vote for you dropping by to check if they were still looking to fill that position. You're part of his network. Get in the game.
posted by IanMorr at 11:42 AM on November 9

I strongly discouraged this, but he won't budge, so I told him that I needed to review it before he sends it so he doesn't shoot himself in the foot.

What? How do you have that authority? He's graduated from college. Let him do his own thing.

Bottom line, this is not your fight. Ask him if he'd like you to send an inquiry on his behalf or something (only if you're willing of course). Ask him if he'd like any advice. Listen to his answers, and respect them.
posted by losvedir at 12:05 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]

@ losvedir: he values my advice. I'm his Mom. Lots of Moms have that kind of authority over some parts of their adult children's lives. Or maybe, I'm just one of the lucky parents whose kids come to them even once they're grown up asking for their input on the "big things." Plus, he knows I've been in the workplace longer than he has been alive, and finally, it's the company I work for that he is applying to. Anybody with half a brain would want to know from a current employee what will and won't work as far as the hiring process goes at a company and would want their advice as to how to proceed. And even though I am his Mom, I can attest to the fact that he has more than half a brain. :)

@ BostonTerrier: In the event that any of my co-workers read Ask MeFi, I will refrain from offering any specifics as to why he was let go. I can assure you, though, that from what I know of the situation, it was a valid decision. Everyone else in that group has been here 3 years or more (our company is only about 6 years old, so they're considered long-timers), so it's a good company to work for with lower-than-average turnover in all departments, and the CEO is not only super-smart, but takes incredibly good care of his employees.

@Everybody: You have all been so helpful and all your feedback is excellent! I did what I should've done in the beginning: talk to 2 of my most trusted co-workers who have been at this company longer than I have. They both suggest that my son call first the manager of the Billing group (who he was promised an interview with) followed by a call to the person he interviewed with if he doesn't reach the Manager.

Both co-workers told me that this company is notorious for not responding to emails in general, especially for job applicants. One of these co-workers told me he called twice as a job applicant before he was brought in. Five years later, he's still here.

Thanks again to all of you who took time out of your busy days to help me figure this out!
posted by angiewriter at 1:04 PM on November 9

Fifteen years' experience as a headhunter talking here ...

Find an excuse to stop in the Billing dept. You say: "Gosh, the last thing I want to become is 'that Mom'. But, my son had a terrific conversation with so-and-so not long ago and just hasn't heard anything since then. I really don't want to get in the middle of this, but what do you think I should tell him?"

Use language and tone that communicates you are not your son's advocate, nor do you want to be the official messenger on behalf of the firm. You're merely asking - very casually - what you should tell him to quell his anxiety. A key is to have the person you're speaking to not feel threatened by your question, or to think that they are on the spot for an "official" answer (because there probably isn't one or your son would have heard it).

Then, go with what you get. Don't ask for explanation or clarification. Just pass it along to your son as "the best I can do". It'll be more than he's gotten so far, and maybe all he'll get for awhile.
posted by John Borrowman at 2:08 PM on November 9

@ John Borrowman: This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for--somebody with a lot of experience in the hiring process to provide some kind of appropriate-ness meter for me. As I mentioned above, my 2 co-workers filled me in on the fact that lots of departments are really poor email responders, especially to job applicants. I have never experienced this at this company, but I don't interact with as many people in other departments as my co-workers do. Additionally, I was brought in as a contractor 4 years ago (and made perm a few months later), and the man who gave me a phone interview brought me in the next day for an in-person interview, and I started the following week, so it was a completely different situation for me.
posted by angiewriter at 3:17 PM on November 9

If this were a friend of mine rather than my son, I would've definitely asked the folks in Billing what was up (in a nice, non-pushy way, of course) by this point.

Why not make that happen? Ask someone you are friendly with if they can check in, just as you would do for a friend. The friendly coworker can swing by the person's desk with a quick, "Hi Susie. Hey, angieson applied for an opening in your department. How did his interview go? Do you think you'll bring him on board?"
posted by Houstonian at 7:57 PM on November 9