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How to deal with his friendship with a former lover?
October 28, 2009 9:04 PM Subscribe

(RelationshipFilter) My now boyfriend used to sleep with a good friend of his, while he was dating me. How do I deal with my feelings about him hanging out with her?

Before we became exclusive (in the early stages of our dating relationship, but continuing after we started saying "I love you"), my now boyfriend was sleeping with a very close friend of his. I knew about it at the time and I hated it. She would sleep over at his place once a week and I knew what was going on, and it tortured me. After a few months we became exclusive (after I told him I wanted to) and he stopped sleeping with her. I never asked him to stop being friends with her or hanging out with her, but I asked him not to share details with me as it really bothers me when he sees her. I don't think he has feelings for her, nor do I suspect that anything is "going on" between them. A few weeks ago she came to an event that he and I attend regularly, and I had to leave because I felt so uncomfortable and angry. Today I found out that he went to a place that is very special to me, that we have been talking about going to together, with her, from a friend who told me he saw him there. I feel like he lied to me about it and was sneaking around, but he says he didn't tell me because I asked him not to talk to me about her. I don't know how we resolve this. I don't feel like it would be okay for me to say "stop being friends with her", but I'm tired of this being an issue and feeling betrayed and angry. I'm angry at him because I feel like he created this situation, but at the same time he wasn't doing anything technically wrong at the time: he wasn't lying to me or cheating on me. When I try to reverse the situation, I know that I wouldn't be hanging out with someone I was sleeping with at the same time as I was seeing him--actually, I wouldn't have been sleeping with a close friend, nor would I have been with someone else when I was saying "I love you" to him.
Does anyone have any ideas about how to deal with this? How do I stop feeling so angry and hurt? Am I totally in the wrong? We have a good relationship and good communication but things just go nowhere with this issue.

posted by anonymous to human relations (49 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite

You're right to feel angry and hurt. You are wrong in thinking you have a good relationship - he isn't all that into you, as evidenced by his sleeping with another person well into your relationship and you don't have good communication, as evidenced by the fact that he lied to you about seeing her (and let's face it, we both know he didn't tell you because he didn't want you to know, not because you asked him not to talk about her.

I rarely see as clear-cut of a case of DTMFA as here. Find someone who respects you and is invested enough in making your relationship work to not have sex with someone else while he is getting to know you.
posted by arnicae at 9:14 PM on October 28 [10 favorites]

there are going to be people who come on and tell you that your discomfort is some intuitive psychological warning signal that something is not right between you and your boyfriend. as an occasionally rabidly jealous person myself, i think that advice is often a load of nonsense. sometimes people get stuck in irrational ruts.

he wasn't just "technically" not doing anything wrong when he was sleeping with her, he was actually not doing anything wrong. when you wanted to be exclusive, he stopped sleeping with her. he has, and is doing, right by you. you need to deal with your own neurosis. figure out what about this girl makes you so insecure? is she better friends with him than you are? do you think she is more attractive to him than you are? clean your own house before you ask your boyfriend to do any more for you than he is already doing. and stop thinking of yourself as better than he is (and she is) for because you "wouldn't have been sleeping with a close friend."
posted by anthropomorphic at 9:16 PM on October 28 [18 favorites]

Have you talked to him about the way your feeling? He sounds like an honest guy from your post so far. Ask him if he has any input on how to deal with these feelings.

I rarely see as clear-cut of a case of DTMFA as here. Find someone who respects you and is invested enough in making your relationship work to not have sex with someone else while he is getting to know you.

This is just silly, you have no idea what the status of their relationship was before they became exclusive. As far as respect goes, her description of the actions taken show no signs of any disrespect.
posted by bigmusic at 9:20 PM on October 28 [2 favorites]

I think you should tell him thusly:

"I am a human being. Because I am human, I have painful feelings when you and Ex are together, since I spent a long time not being happy about your relationship with her in the past. I need you, in this one instance, with this one person, to strongly consider my feelings and ask yourself if it would be painful to me if you did this. If it would, I ask that you not do it. I wish that I was ok with this, but I am human. Please be careful with me, as I do not want to be hurt."

At this point in your relationship, direct, truthful, and non-emotional expression of the fact that you had painful feelings regarding what happened, should be the main method of communication.

Don't hold back. Work on the feeling, not the circumstance. You can't control him, you can only inform him fully of your situation. Whether this is a crisis in your relationship or not is yet to be known. But your feelings are real and legitimate. Feeling an emotion is never illegitmate. Only acting on negative emotions in a way that harms others is.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:22 PM on October 28 [21 favorites]

Something about this story immediately bothered me and filled my gut with a weird, visceral, stomach-rending sense of ughhhhh. Here's what I think the cause is:

Even if you two were non-exclusive, there's something dubious about the fact that he was having sleepovers once a week with what you call a close friend when meanwhile, back at the ranch, he was professing to be emotionally invested enough in your burgeoning relationship that he felt he could tell you he loved you. It sounds, sort of, like he may have been stoking and maintaining deep emotional involvements with two people at once, and was okay with that. This is different than casually dating/carrying on with plenty of assorted folks while you are dating-but-not-together. This sounds more like "cheerfully maintaining two parallel relationships". If you two were aiming for that sort of thing, that would be a different story. As it stands, though, this sort of attitude might be problematic for a happy, monogamous relationship between the two of you, free of insecurity and general ickiness.

Considering Boyfriend's demonstrated comfort level with maintaining simultaneous intimate relationships with both of you, I can understand why you are uncomfortable with their continued acquaintance. All I can say is that if your boyfriend is the type of man who feels comfortable having his fingers in two pots at once, well, your suspicion is justified and totally valid. If you choose to keep dating this character, you would do well to keep your eyes peeled. Good luck.
posted by anonnymoose at 9:26 PM on October 28 [18 favorites]

I think what is really bothering you is that you and your boyfriends' views on sex, love, and relationships are not the same. I'm not saying that either of you is in the wrong, but you wouldn't have done what he did and it really bothers you that he does not hold the same views on these issues as you do.

I think this is a valid concern. It makes you wonder in what other ways your views and expectations regarding sex, love, and relationships are drastically different and what that could mean for your relationship in the future. Only you can decide whether it's a deal breaker or not.

You say you two generally have good communication, but have you ever straight out asked him why he continued having sex with her after he said he loved you? Not in an accusational way, but was he envisioning a polyamorous or open relationship? Or was he just getting a little on the side for as long as he could before you demanded an exclusive relationship?
posted by whoaali at 9:32 PM on October 28 [2 favorites]

It isn't healthy to control another person but I think exes have a special exemption - if it is only exes and not other friends/family too. It IS okay for you to ask that he not be friends with an ex because you find it upsetting (and he may chose to keep the relationship with the ex and dump you, but at least you will know where his priorities are).

The fact that he was sleeping with her after the emotional intimacy of "I love you", knowing that it was torturing you (or else he didn't even bother to check with you about how you felt about it as your relationship developed, which, in a way, is worse) speaks to his immaturity in maintaining healthy communication in relationship - which is even more important in open relationships.
posted by saucysault at 9:39 PM on October 28 [1 favorite]

I think on average, when a couple becomes official and starts saying "I love you", there is an implication of exclusivity, whether or not it was discussed outright. You're not being crazy to feel hurt that he was sleeping with someone during this time, and only stopped after you asked him to. (How long would that have gone on if you didn't make that request?)

That said, if you want to make the relationship work, there needs to be better communication. In healthy relationships, people share things with each other, both little and big, exciting and mundane. You asking him not to tell you what he and his friend do together creates an atmosphere of hiding things, and it seems like he has taken advantage of that.

If you want to stay in this relationship, you should be clear about what you expect of him because it seems that you have different boundaries than he does.
posted by too bad you're not me at 9:40 PM on October 28 [1 favorite]

arnicae writes "You are wrong in thinking you have a good relationship - he isn't all that into you, as evidenced by his sleeping with another person well into your relationship"

Monogamy is not the only way.

arnicae writes "you don't have good communication, as evidenced by the fact that he lied to you about seeing her (and let's face it, we both know he didn't tell you because he didn't want you to know, not because you asked him not to talk about her."

The boyfriend has already acquiesced to a much bigger request; what evidence is there for this statement? Seriously OP, if you can't trust your boyfriend's motivations in this case you should run not walk away from this relationship. Otherwise it'll end badly for everyone involved.

However, your boyfriend does seem to do what you ask him. I'd at least talk to him about this situation. Explain to him that his seeing this person is driving you crazy. He might be willing to compromise in some way that will be acceptable to you or he may not in which case you should end the relationship. Life is way too short for the drama this is leading towards.
posted by Mitheral at 9:45 PM on October 28 [2 favorites]

Ask yourself what you want and whether this relationship is giving it to you. If what you want is him, honestly, exclusively and unreservedly, it may come down to giving him the opportunity to give that to you (i.e. by communicating what you want to him) and bailing if you don't get it.

It's about you looking after yourself -- it doesn't sound like he's going to do it for you because right now he has his cake and he gets to eat it, too.

(FWIW, if it was me in that situation, I'd be very, very uncomfortable, it's not surprising you're feeling upset and hurt.)
posted by prettypretty at 9:45 PM on October 28

However, your boyfriend does seem to do what you ask him. I'd at least talk to him about this situation. Explain to him that his seeing this person is driving you crazy. He might be willing to compromise in some way that will be acceptable to you or he may not in which case you should end the relationship. Life is way too short for the drama this is leading towards.

Yes. See what his actions are.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:47 PM on October 28

When I try to reverse the situation, I know that I wouldn't be hanging out with someone I was sleeping with at the same time as I was seeing him--actually, I wouldn't have been sleeping with a close friend, nor would I have been with someone else when I was saying "I love you" to him. Does anyone have any ideas about how to deal with this?

0) Don't beat yourself up for your feelings of jealousy (for lack of a better word). They aren't something people really choose to feel. But don't let that stop you from dealing with them

1) Stop comparing your dating-sex styles. Yes, it's probably going to be hard. But there is really nothing wrong with waiting until "the talk" to become exclusive. Some people stop seeing other people based on their own personal feelings, and other people wait until they have evidence (in the form of a conversation) which lets them know it's time to be exclusive. Just because you would have done things differently in his situation does not make you any better than him. Once both of you knew that you both wanted to be exclusive, you have been. That is some seriously powerful shit. Don't discount that.

2) The whole "I don't want to know anything about her" thing is totally backfiring here. You need to know SOMETHING about her or you are going to go insane.

3) You say that you don't think that he's screwing around on you, but you're still bothered by even being around her. You need to figure out exactly WHY her mere presence bothers you, because if you can vocalize "Hey boyfriend, it bothers me when you hang out with your friend that you used to have sex with because it makes me think that _________" then he can do stuff to make you help you not have to think those things. Because as it is right now, it seems like you're mad at him for being friends with her, but you can't really explain why, so you might end up saying things like "Well, I wouldn't do things like you've already done" which isn't helpful, because it doesn't focus on how to fix a problem that already exists.

4) Sure, being around her is painful for you, but for reals: if you had at least an acquaintanceship with her, it would be alot easier for you to not go crazy thinking god knows what about her. Baby steps, but if you see your boyfriend sticking around for a while, consider having "be able to hang out with boyfriend's friend" as a goal which will help you fell more at ease in your relationship with her.
posted by 23skidoo at 9:53 PM on October 28 [2 favorites]

This is all just my conjecture:

It sounds like, when you were dating him, you forced yourself for some reason to be "cool" with something you really weren't cool with (him being involved with someone else). (More on the reason later).

And now, you're yet again forcing yourself to be cool with something you're not really cool with (him hanging out with the ex.)

If you want to be in a relationship with a guy who would never do what your boyfriend did, and also would have no interest in going on special outings with his ex, I think that's totally legit.

(I generally think *anything* that anyone wants in a relationship is legit, as long as they recognize that what they need to do is find someone who wants the same thing, not meld someone who *doesn't* want the same thing into being/doing what they want).

It may not be fair to ask him not to be friends with her. But I think it would be utterly fair to let him know how you feel about him being friends with this ex, and how it makes you feel about your relationship in general. Remember, you both are entitled to want exactly the kind of relationship you want.

I think you don't want to be true to your feelings, because you know being true to your feelings + the unfairness of trying to change someone who doesn't want to/think they should change = you may have to end the relationship.

So I think it's a choice between accepting that he might not be the best fit for you and the relationship might have to end, and continuing for the length of the relationship to deny/try to get over/beat yourself up about the unhappiness/uneasiness you feel.
posted by Ashley801 at 10:05 PM on October 28 [6 favorites]

You're not at all unreasonable at all to feel hurt. I don't know about anybody else, but "I love you" generally comes a long time after you decide to be exclusive, and as far as exclusivity goes, you assume you're being exclusive until it's said otherwise. Doing it the other way around is just scummy.

So, given the fact that he was able to say "I love you" to you at the same time he was doing it with her, I'd say the fact that they're still chumming it up does not spell good things for you.
This doesn't sounds like a Good Relationship at all.
posted by dunkadunc at 10:08 PM on October 28 [1 favorite]

(That is to say, Get Out. This relationship does not sound like something that will end in anything good for you, and probably something bad.)
posted by dunkadunc at 10:17 PM on October 28 [1 favorite]

I feel like he lied to me about it and was sneaking around, but he says he didn't tell me because I asked him not to talk to me about her.

If this was since you've been "exclusive", then I think he's probably lying to you, and may have slept with/be sleeping with her as well.

I have a feeling this relationship is never going to get past this. I think you're probably better off moving on.
posted by The Monkey at 4:20 AM on October 29 [1 favorite]

This is what I have learned in the past couple years; if you feel worried, angry, or uncomfortable about your relationship on a regular basis, you need to leave. Don't try to reason away your worries about this, if you feel it, it is for a reason.
posted by heavenstobetsy at 4:21 AM on October 29 [1 favorite]

From this Brit's perspective, the whole idea that someone can spend time trying to emotionally connect with one person while shagging someone else is odd. But I digress.

It's quite simple, and doesn't just relate to romantic relationships. What you enjoy about being with someone and how much you trust them are two different things. If you can learn to place a value on each separately, it will help your decisionmaking.

- Trust and like: long term relationship material
- Trust but don't like: A great friend/partner for someone that isn't you
- Like but don't trust: Conduct relationship on your terms only (because they are conducting the relationship on their, not mutual terms.

You don't trust the guy, and this makes you angry. But you like him and feel you have a good relationship. So conduct the relationship on your terms. I.e. if you're comfortable not trusting him and knowing that he will occasionally/frequently act in ways that could hurt you then get from the relationship what you want (i.e. sex, fun, company etc etc). If not trusting him is a dealbreaker for your terms of relationship, then end it.

FWIW, this whole thing about "technically this" and "technically that" is a red herring. The only time that the contractual detail of a relationship matters is when you divorce. At all other times, it's the spirit of the agreement that matters. You don't need permission from anyone to not like what this chap has done. If you need trust in a relationship and can't trust him, you already have your answer.
posted by MuffinMan at 4:25 AM on October 29 [11 favorites]

From what you've written you sound highly insecure, because your imagination is running wild with all the unknowns in the picture. There's a huge pile-on the boyfriend in all the posts above but he really appears to have done nothing wrong at any point. As you say the girl is a very close friend of his and he likes hanging out with her. Most normal guys wouldn't drop off the face of the world and ditch all their friends once they get into a relationship, which is what you appear to want.

Your best bet in this situation is to get to know the girl and become friends with her, as in genuinely extend the hand of friendship with no ulterior motives whatsoever (good luck with that, but I feel you can pull it off). Since she's a close friend of your boyfriend, a person you already like, the chances of your becoming friends are actually pretty good.
posted by the_ancient_mariner at 5:36 AM on October 29 [1 favorite]

Does anyone have any ideas about how to deal with this?
Um yeah. Be pissed. Make sure he knows why. Put your foot down. That was not cool and he knows it.
posted by bunny hugger at 6:15 AM on October 29

Um yeah. Be pissed. Make sure he knows why. Put your foot down. That was not cool and he knows it.

I don't know if "you're wrong and I'm right, jerk" is really a constructive approach. How does that untangle this issue? And where is the resolution in that?

And very well may backfire. I know that I sure wouldn't stand for being told which of my close friends I was permitted to keep. (In fact, my SO and I both have close, totally platonic relationships with former lovers, and it's a complete non-issue.)
posted by desuetude at 6:41 AM on October 29

He's still sleeping with her.

The whole thing about "the talk" is irrelevant. You're dating someone who isn't intuitive enough to discern that his physical involvement with someone else after you two have been intimate both verbally and physically is hurtful to you. I'm all for open communication and treating others how to treat you, etc., but seriously, if a guy doesn't know something like that on his own, then, well, he's just not sensitive enough for me.

Did I mention he's still sleeping with her? Because he is. He's going on dates with her and not telling you, based on some "technicality" of you not wanting to hear about her? Really? He got busted going out with her. Period.

I guarantee you - and I'm sorry - but this isn't fixable. He's repeatedly chosen his feelings over yours in a matters involving trust. Quit while you're ahead.
posted by December at 7:18 AM on October 29 [7 favorites]

We as a species will have made a huge leap forward when we accept that it is possible to love one person and be sexually attracted to another. This is where the boyfriend was at the outset and as I read it, had license to explore his feelings with the two different parties. When the boyfriend and the OP agreed to be exclusive, he no longer had license to do this and -- unless I am missing something -- he ceased doing so. I fail to see the problem, save for a degree of jealousy and insecurity on the part of the OP. And let me tell you, jealousy and insecurity have never made anyone more attractive.

Bu then again, I have never understood why we are all supposed to loathe everyone we have ever been attracted to, except the person we are currently sleeping with. I go to bed with people I like: I liked them before I ever saw them naked, and the things I liked about them usually did not go away after I ceased to do so.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:20 AM on October 29 [4 favorites]

I liked them before I ever saw them naked, and the things I liked about them usually did not go away after I ceased to do so.

Lest this get misinterpreted, as these things often do, my point here is that more than once I have ceased sleeping with someone and still enjoyed her company and considered her a friend.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:22 AM on October 29

Oh, my god. Why are you doing this to yourself?

I'm not saying that there can't be or aren't great polygamous relationships out there, but clearly this situation is causing you a boatload of grief. I think you're never going to get anywhere on this issue because you're both on different wavelengths.

Really, get out of there before you go crazy, because that's the only place that road is going.
posted by motsque at 7:27 AM on October 29

The whole thing about "the talk" is irrelevant. You're dating someone who isn't intuitive enough to discern that his physical involvement with someone else after you two have been intimate both verbally and physically is hurtful to you. I'm all for open communication and treating others how to treat you, etc., but seriously, if a guy doesn't know something like that on his own, then, well, he's just not sensitive enough for me.

The whole thing about "the talk" is SO relevant it hurts. It's like being a vegan, accepting a dinner invitation from a non-vegan, and then acting surprised when the restaurant you eat at isn't vegan. If you have important information that someone else needs to know in order to make the best decision, you need to tell that person, whether the info is "I have special dietary needs" or "I want us to be exclusive" or "You friendship with this girl bothers me". Championing he-should-just-know-ism means supporting a relationship where people are encouraged to NOT communicate, because communicating only proves that they had to talk about something that should be obvious. Anything that prevents people from communicating is not a good thing. Saying that there are things that people should just know is not a good thing.
posted by 23skidoo at 7:47 AM on October 29 [3 favorites]

I really don't get why people go out of their way to defend SOs behavior on "technical grounds." He wasn't technically doing anything wrong....isn't that just GREAT. Why do you want to commit to someone who is clearly happy playing along the margins of what you consider acceptable behavior? What else will he try and get away with down the road? He is either blatantly too immature to be ready for the type of commitment that you desire or has a serious, permanent character flaw. Neither option means happiness for you. The real question is why you have allowed yourself to put up with a situation like this for so long. Get rid of.
posted by the foreground at 7:52 AM on October 29 [5 favorites]

as far as exclusivity goes, you assume you're being exclusive until it's said otherwise. Doing it the other way around is just scummy.

Or, you assume you're not exclusive until it's said otherwise. Doing it the other way around is just clingy and leads to higher risk of STDs.

OP, you need to let your boyfriend know how you're feeling about this. He's been cooperative with your requests so far and says he loves you. If that's remotely true, he will want to help you feel better about this situation. He may or may not be willing to give up a friend (that's a lot to ask, and in possessive territory), but he might be willing to only socialize with her in a group or with you there or some other measure. He might also be able to alleviate your concerns by telling you something you don't know about the nature of his feelings for her (he'd never be interested in her being his girlfriend because she has this dealbreaker habit that's fine for a friend, for example).

But you won't know what he'd be willing to do to improve the situation until you communicate with him about it honestly (and non-judgementally -- he's played by the rules set forth). And if he's not willing or able to make any concessions or revelations that alleviate your bad feelings, that's just as important for you to know.
posted by notashroom at 8:08 AM on October 29

With respect to the polys for their different point of view and their principled opposition to jealousy...there is something odd to me too about this running theme that men who can't commit to you are not boors but a great leap forward in human consciousness. This would make Elliot Spitzer the evolutionary equivalent of those super-evolved energy creatures who used to lecture Captain Kirk on Star Trek.

Niceness is not technical or contractual. Find a nicer boyfriend.
posted by Kirklander at 8:13 AM on October 29 [14 favorites]

You've been given a lot to think about with these comments, and I am in total agreement with anyone that says it is totally understandable that you are upset. I think Ironmouth really has it, but I wonder if you've considered asking him to compromise a bit, and put a few boundaries in place that he needs to observe with her, if he wants to be in a relationship with you. For example, I think asking him not to have any solo, isolated plans with her is fair. To break it down a bit, a group outing is cool, the two of them having lunch in a restaurant is perfectly fine, but drinks at her place, just the two of them, is not okay. Also, requesting that he not do something with her that he knows you consider special and wanted to do with him is completely reasonable. Maybe he will find these too restrictive or smothering, but they really aren't that difficult, and are an easy way for him to maintain his friendship with her while making sure things are good between the two of you, as well.

I would also rescind the request that he not tell you about her and plans he may have with her. Knowledge is power. You may dislike hearing about it, but imagining what will or already has happened, or being surprised to find out your perception is way off, is a million times more unpleasant, in my mind. In the current situation, he has a built-in out if something bothers you, as in this case, even if you are right to be unhappy. He can plead ignorance and respecting your wishes, and you're stuck feeling not only upset, but also not entitled to your feelings. Talking is better. Don't ask, don't tell just plain sucks in any situation. Good luck!
posted by katemcd at 8:49 AM on October 29 [1 favorite]

Reread anthropomorphic 's response. And then read it again. And then highlight it.

Get over these jealous feelings and he will be more attracted to you. Being jealous will only push him away. Being insecure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Feeling an emotion is never illegitmate. Only acting on negative emotions in a way that harms others is.

This is poor advice.

Divulging this emotion will only harm the relationship. The realization that jealousy and insecurity can undermine attractiveness the only way to act on this emotion.

And by the way: you don't have to be "poly" to act like a mature, sophisticated individual.
posted by Zambrano at 9:59 AM on October 29

Get over these jealous feelings and he will be more attracted to you. Being jealous will only push him away. Being insecure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Feeling an emotion is never illegitmate. Only acting on negative emotions in a way that harms others is.

This is poor advice.

Divulging this emotion will only harm the relationship. The realization that jealousy and insecurity can undermine attractiveness the only way to act on this emotion.

It is common to want to act in a way that ensures no rejection will ever meet you and that you will have a constant stream of being attracted to by the other party. A deep belief in this idea can help one think that one can avoid heartache--until it inevitably hits us. But this advice seems to be trapped in the initial stages of attraction and overemphasizes the gaming and strategy part of a new relationship to build into the only way of interacting ever. At the core of this philosophy is deep, deep, unacknowledged fear.

We can't keep up the facade forever. Always attempting to never seem fazed and always be attractive is impossible. We are human beings. We are flawed. We are very often weak. You cannot forever fake that you are not human, that you are not perfect. In the end, always attempting to never seem jealous and to always be attractive to one's mate is a sign of terrible weakness and an inability to acknowledge our very real limitations as human beings. We cannot forever not show our humanity and we cannot always be attractive to our mates.

That's why I've found that the best relationships are ones where we can be ourselves, where we can actually let our hair down and release our fear, so that we have some respite from the constant battle that is interacting with other human beings. To what purpose is a life where one is constantly in a state of fear regarding one's mate? None, as I can see.

This is why I suggest that you admit your humanness to your mate and ask him for what you want. If this person cannot provide it for you, find another who can. But I think you have been living the very life of avoidance that the advice presented above is based on. Trying to pretend like you are not afraid of getting hurt is the ultimate exercise in denial, which can only lead to difficult mental and physical health issues in the end.

We are finite creatures who work best when we acknowledge our less than perfect sides.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:53 AM on October 29 [4 favorites]

From the OP:

"Today I found out that he went to a place that is very special to me, that we have been talking about going to together, with her, from a friend who told me he saw him there."

Some people get their rocks off by taking advantage of others and getting away with sneaky stuff. Especially sexual or emotional sneaky stuff. It's exciting for these folks when the betrayal is committed out in the open, right under everyone's nose, and often with the unwitting "permission" of the person they are seeking to deceive and hurt the most. These are the sort of people you don't want to gift your affection or intimacy to.

The OP seems to be dating someone she shouldn't gift her affection or intimacy to. I don't buy that she and the bf have a good relationship. The OP states she felt "tortured" by his sexual intimacy with another woman when they were first dating. That doesn't sound like a recipe for long-term happiness. It sounds more like the "sneaky mean person" dynamic I referenced above.

I feel like I require more data from the OP before outright stating her bf is sleeping with the friend. But yeah, it looks like a duck so far.

For the Hive:

I'm curious how/why so many MeFites overlooked the statement I highlighted above in the question? If you purposefully discounted that statement - why?
posted by jbenben at 11:39 AM on October 29

And let me tell you, jealousy and insecurity have never made anyone more attractive.

This is not true for everyone. I, for one, would never want to be with a man who wouldn't mind seeing me with another man. The mutual desire for exclusivity -- the mutual jealousy of each other's most intimate feelings and actions -- is part of romantic love, for me. (Emphasis on "for me.")

I think this is where your relationship is hitting a bump, OP. It sounds like you're more like me: you want someone who has that mutually exclusive vision of romantic love. If you love someone (such that you're saying "I love you" to them), you think it would be wrong to sleep with other people, and you wouldn't want to see them sleeping with other people. This doesn't mean jettisoning your entire address book for each other, but having certain things that are on and off the table with those outside the relationship. It sounds like your boyfriend is different.

If I were you, I'd find a boyfriend who shares my notions of what romantic love is.

Also, I'd hesitate to follow any advice endorsed by Zambrano, as that is perhaps the last man on MetaFilter I'd want to attract.
posted by palliser at 11:49 AM on October 29 [2 favorites]

I'm curious how/why so many MeFites overlooked the statement I highlighted above in the question? If you purposefully discounted that statement - why?

Speaking only for myself, it is apparent from the post that the OP has trouble effectively communicating to her boyfriend about her emotions and things that bother her, and it is not apparent whether she effectively communicated to him that this place was special to her in a way that suggested she'd want exclusivity or primacy regarding this place.

If she had effectively communicated that and he went anyway, that's a dick move. If she hadn't, well, so he's not on Miss Cleo's shortlist for new hires. Either way, it's unclear.
posted by notashroom at 12:00 PM on October 29

If someone cares about you, they do whatever they can to eliminate even the mere appearance of impropriety. Examples of this would include Boyfriend inviting you to join him and Female Friend on outings, noting your discomfort when Female Friend appeared at a location where you and Boyfriend went (and asking how he could make you feel better in her presence), not spending time alone with her without mentioning it to you, not taking her to a place that he knows is important to you. Has he made any of those attempts? It doesn't sound like it.

Again, this goes back to what I posted earlier: my expectation is that the guy comes outta the box with a certain amount of sensitivity to my feelings. I'm not saying he has to be a mindreader or that there shouldn't be solid communication (there definitely should be), but he's just not sensitive enough for my tastes if I have to say, Um, hi. Yeah. You are sleeping with someone while telling me you love me and that hurts me. And I feel hurt that you went to Location X with her without telling me, particularly after I told you Location X was important to me. I can't spend my days teaching someone every little thing that will hurt me. That one seems a no brainer to me that shouldn't require explanation, but hey, I'm certainly no paragon of healthy relationships and maybe expectations like that are at the root of my problem(s). That being said, I have had the pleasure of dating people who were in fact sensitive enough to my feelings of this nature without my having to explain those feelings to them. So they're out there.

It may be that all this is purely innocent (yet, in my view, disrespectful) behavior, but either way, it hurts you. It hurts you! Do you want a project or a boyfriend?

From another angle, too, Female Friend has some responsibilities here as well. I have many guy friends and do what I can to ensure their girlfriends don't see me as anything other than a mere friend because that's all I am. Has Female Friend reached out to you in this fashion?

And, sure, I don't know any of you but I've seen this played out in my life and others' lives so many times that it very much hurt me just to read about your situation because the ending appears so predictable to me. In every one of those supposed innocent situations, Boyfriend was still bangin' old girl. I'd bet money on it in this situation, too. And I'm really sorry to say that but if that's the harsh wake up you need, then, well, I'm not so sorry I wrote it.

Find someone who adores you and who would never entertain the idea of doing anything that looked even remotely sketchy. This guy knows perfectly well this kind of behavior is inappropriate. He's no innocent here.

I learned this shit the hard way; I'd hate for you to as well.
posted by December at 12:03 PM on October 29 [3 favorites]

I don't think you have a good relationship. Or, if you think this is a good relationship, you should set your bar higher. You don't want to be with someone who consistently upsets you.

There is a disconnect if he's telling you he loves you and is sleeping with some other lady. I don't think I would / could have kept seeing someone who was doing that. This sounds really sketchy.
posted by chunking express at 12:10 PM on October 29

I have many guy friends and do what I can to ensure their girlfriends don't see me as anything other than a mere friend because that's all I am.

I bend over backwards to do this, too. The thing here is that it is possible that she still isn't/doesn't want to be a mere friend. I think the reassurance words/actions need to come from the boyfriend, if he cares enough (which is what you started with).
posted by Pax at 12:14 PM on October 29

The thing here is that it is possible that she still isn't/doesn't want to be a mere friend. I think the reassurance words/actions need to come from the boyfriend, if he cares enough (which is what you started with).

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean it more in the sense that if both the Boyfriend and the Female Friend are insensitive to OP's feelings, that doesn't bode well at all. It really isn't Female Friend's job to console OP, but often female friends will take that step because they care about their male friends' happiness/relationships and therefore don't want anything misconstrued.

OP doesn't say much about Female Friend's actions toward her, but...it's something to think about in conjunction with Boyfriend's actions. That would have been a better way to phrase it.
posted by December at 12:20 PM on October 29

You are afraid of being immature/jealous due to him being "right" on some technical basis. Technicalities are what casual relationships are based off of (acquaintances, work friends, etc). I've never seen a relationship work where either side is justified through technicalities. I'm not saying he's cheating on you, but it doesn't seem like he's ready to vest in the type of relationship you want. And he won't have to when you're putting it on yourself as your problem. That's BS.

Feel the way you feel. If it doesn't sit right with you, then it's a problem and you should deal with it. You may not be 100% right, and you may one day feel differently about the type of relationship you want, but the worst thing you can do is compromise the way you feel. Be honest, talk about it, and then walk away if it still doesn't sit right. You don't need to justify wanting someone who will treat you the way you want.

Like I said, you may change your mind. But it should be you changing it and not someone else.
posted by datacaliber at 12:41 PM on October 29

I'm curious how/why so many MeFites overlooked the statement I highlighted above in the question? If you purposefully discounted that statement - why?

Assuming you actually want insight into other people's points of view, and are not merely trying to "prove" that people who disagree with you are wrong: your quote, especially out of context, is not as cut and dried and you think. Like notashroom said, Anon clearly has difficulties talking to her boyfriend about emotional matters, as is evidenced by the fact that she KNEW he was sleeping with someone else and she didn't want him to be doing that, but she just let him keep doing it for a while and it tortured her to do this.

Nowhere in her post did Anon say "I actually TOLD my boyfriend how special this place was to me." She says they were talking about going. That's it.
posted by 23skidoo at 1:27 PM on October 29

I was clueless as to why so many folks counseled the problem was with OP's ability to voice her feelings/objections. Conversely, I thought it was likely from the ask that the OP has talked to her bf about the nature of his relationship with close friend many many times. I inferred the problem was bf continually convincing OP there was nothing there when OP's gut keeps telling her otherwise - even though this was not 100% concretely stated in the question.

Thanks 23skidoo & notashroom for clarifying the alternative conclusion - I see it now.
posted by jbenben at 3:10 PM on October 29

I really don't get why people go out of their way to defend SOs behavior on "technical grounds." He wasn't technically doing anything wrong....isn't that just GREAT. Why do you want to commit to someone who is clearly happy playing along the margins of what you consider acceptable behavior? What else will he try and get away with down the road? He is either blatantly too immature to be ready for the type of commitment that you desire or has a serious, permanent character flaw.

This is the sort of binary thinking that I find really bizarre in threads about relationships. It's entirely possible that what anonymous thinks are marginal behaviors would be something considered totally commonplace to other people, and that compromise is possible.

"Today I found out that he went to a place that is very special to me, that we have been talking about going to together, with her, from a friend who told me he saw him there."

Not enough context, jbenben. We don't know if this special place is the grocery store or Tahiti or something in-between.
posted by desuetude at 3:46 PM on October 29

: "Today I found out that he went to a place that is very special to me, that we have been talking about going to together, with her, from a friend who told me he saw him there. I feel like he lied to me about it and was sneaking around, but he says he didn't tell me because I asked him not to talk to me about her. "

Yeah...that's uncool. Were I in your shoes, I would be furious. Not only because he's obviously sneaking around, and more than likely still sleeping with her, but because he took her to "your" place...some place that you had made clear was important to you.

Fair disclosure; I have a hair trigger when it comes to infidelity, because of things in my past. I tend to read things in a way that is biased against behavior which appears to be sketchy.

That said; I agree with the various posters who have said that you are not likely to ever be comfortable in this relationship. If you demand, and he acquiesces to "dumping the ex", he will either resent you for it forever, or he will continue to see her. If they're really close, he's not going to dump her. He's going to see it as insecurity on your part, and he'll continue to do what he's already doing, which is to see her secretly. There's all sorts of added spice when the relationship is "forbidden".

You are not likely to ever be comfortable being "one of" his girls, which is what it appears he would like.

I think you deserve a partner whose primary interest is you, and whose secondary interest is NOT some other girl. Were I in your situation, I would probably start unwinding myself from this relationship. I do not see it going anywhere you want it to go.
posted by dejah420 at 8:54 AM on October 30 [1 favorite]

If someone cares about you, they do whatever they can to eliminate even the mere appearance of impropriety.

That only works if your ideas of "impropriety" are the same. We've all had friends who used this line to justify completely nutty jealous behavior. (I don't know enough from the OP's description to know if that applies here.)
posted by small_ruminant at 4:47 PM on October 30

Damn, taking her to a place you really wanted to go to with him--super inconsiderate. Why did he do that? That's what I would want to know. There is a chance that you're jealous for a reason.
posted by kathrineg at 8:55 PM on October 30

The vagaries of this question kind of stumped me, so I added in names and places and time.

Jeff began dating Tara in January. At the time, they were not exclusive. Jeff was also sleeping with Janet. He was open with Tara about sleeping with Janet, whom Jeff characterized as "just a friend I sleep with." In June, when Tara made it clear that she desired an exclusive relationship, Jeff informed Tara that he would honor this and stop sleeping with Janet. Tara also informed Jeff that if he was going to continue hanging out with friend Janet, not to share any details with Tara because it upset her.

Tara and Jeff continued their relationship, and had always discussed going to the aquarium. Tara loved aquariums, and told Jeff that he really wanted him to take her there. Jeff promised to take her. One day, however, a mutual friend, Scott, informed Tara that he saw Jeff with Janet at the aquarium. Tara confronted Jeff, and Jeff told her that he did not tell her about this trip because Tara told him to never talk about Janet.

So, Jeff knows that Tara hates Janet, but continues to hang out with her because Tara said "I'm not going to ask you to stop hanging out with her, but if you do, don't tell me the details." Jeff is either (a) dense or (b) living in the land of wishful thinking. On the other hand, Tara is either (a) dense or (b) living in the land of wishful thinking.

You can't have a successful relationship built on anything other than openness and honesty. I don't mean that you're obliged to disclosed the gory details of your past sexual exploits, but, man, from the point you say "I love you" on forward, you have build your relationship on honesty and trust.

So, if you want to fix this relationship, you have to fix this now. You can't let build a healthy relationship on "don't ever tell me about X part of your life"; on the same token, he can't expect to build a healthy relationship on "I'm going to do stuff behind your back, because you said you're okay with it."

Be open and honest about your feelings. Be open and honest about everything you do. If that doesn't work out for you, then your relationship is doomed. Let it go.
posted by jabberjaw at 10:45 PM on October 30

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