Is a ticket equal to a "crime"?

October 28, 2009 10:33 AM

Is an underage drinking ticket a crime, for application purposes? I am afraid I might have answered it wrong and now I have an interview.

I got a ticket for underage drinking about 6 or 7 years ago. It was not a misdemeanor, it was a ticket for violation of municipal code. I was not driving. Fast forward to now- I am applying to medical schools this year. On the primary AMCAS application (the first app that gets sent to all schools) it asks if you have been convicted of any misdemeanors or felonies, so of course my answer was NO. Because I haven't.

Anyway, after schools get this application they send you a 'secondary' which asks for more info. Some of them don't go into any more depth regarding this issue. Some schools ask if you have ever been convicted of anything at all, ever (and in these cases I did bring it up and explain.) One in particular has me confused though. I recently got an interview invitation from a school and I went back to reread my secondary application with them and found this question, to which I answered NO:

"Have you ever been convicted of a crime, or pleaded guilty and been placed on probation, court supervision or another preconviction program? A "Yes" answer does not automatically result in your disqualification for admission to X Medical College."

i filled it out months ago so i cant remember my thought process, but I guess when I see the word "crime" i think of shoplifting, or drugs, or something. Or as the other application says, felonies and misdemeanors. I am confused as to whether my municipal ticket is equal to a crime and whether I should have answered this question accordingly. I'm also nervous now because I am afraid if I bring it up after having been invited to interview, they will think I was trying to be sneaky and dis-invite me (yes, schools can un-invite you.) Should I just forge ahead and hope for the best, and be prepared to explain if it comes up? Is this less of a big deal than I think it is?

Many schools run background checks on applicants who are accepted, but this school doesn't, so if I don't tell them they would probably never know. Also for what it's worth, I have another interview at a different school that I DID disclose this incident to, so I guess its not a dealbreaker there. Should I stir the pot to try and cover my ass, or did I answer it right? Should I just let it go? I don't want to make it a bigger deal than it should be by calling attention to it unless I feel like I really was misleading. Was I?

Thanks.

posted by anonymous to grab bag (20 comments total)

Would you have reported a speeding ticket? As long as you weren't charged with anything in court, you should be totally fine.
posted by oinopaponton at 10:40 AM on October 28

You are substantially better off if you report it and it turns out not to qualify under the terms of the question than if you fail to report it and they find out later. Report it. Always report it.
posted by decathecting at 10:41 AM on October 28

I never advocate dishonesty. But it doesn't seem like you were being dishonest on the application. And if they don't run a background check, I guess I'd just let it go. Worse case scenario is they find out and you explain to them exactly what you just explained to us - that you weren't sure if it qualified, etc. And honestly, I really doubt a medical school is going to give a flying fuck about an underage drinking citation 7 years ago. And if they do, it's probably not the kind of place you want to be anyway. I mean, if they reject you because when you were 20 and an undergrad you got busted at a party with a beer in your hand - but now your 27 and otherwise completely qualified, then that's their problem. Don't sweat the small stuff.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:47 AM on October 28

No. This seriously does not merit reporting. Btw, you were only convicted of a crime if you stood in front of a judge or pled guilty to a court of law. Municipal code violations are passed out for things like not mowing your lawn regularly enough. I disagree with decathecting, don't bring this up at all, it's likely to be confused with something much worse, like a conviction for drunk driving.
posted by xammerboy at 10:47 AM on October 28 [6 favorites]

What xammerboy said, do not bring this up. It will be confused with a real crime; this is a citation, like a speeding ticket or not mowing your lawn.
posted by spaltavian at 10:51 AM on October 28

Getting a civil violation is not the same as a criminal proceeding. It's totally acceptable to leave this off, and it's extremely unlikely that, even if they do somehow find out about it, there will be any serious consequences. This was so long ago and so minor a violation that I can't imagine anyone getting up in arms about it.
posted by Electrius at 11:05 AM on October 28

You're acting paranoid. It's not a crime, you learned from it, now move on and get the job you applied for.
posted by omidius at 11:19 AM on October 28

IANYL: You most likely answered it correctly. Although there could be some jurisdictionally specific exceptions, the commonly accepted definition of a "crime" is misdemeanor or felony. If you are correct and the violation of municipal code was not a misdemeanor or felony, then it is not a "crime".

Below is the relevant New York statute. If you check the statutory definition of a crime in the state where you received your ticket you should have your answer.

New York Penal Law Section 10.00: Definitions
(6) "Crime" means a misdemeanor or felony
posted by Mr. X at 11:22 AM on October 28

Ordinance violations are generally considered to be quasi-criminal. Usually, the dividing line is whether conviction of the ordinance could be sentenced by imprisonment, even for a short period. If not, it's not a crime.
posted by craven_morhead at 11:27 AM on October 28

I used to work for an organization that places teachers in schools and underage drinking WILL come up on most background checks, even if it was dismissed. We ran into this problem several times because people thought the charge had been removed from their records and never reported it to us until we ran state and FBI background checks. The problem was not that we cared about the charge, but that the state will not let people with certain offenses teach. (I would imagine it's the same with practicing medicine.) That's why it's important to disclose everything. In the end, we always ended up helping these folks clear their records so they could teach.
posted by jrichards at 11:28 AM on October 28

It's really difficult to answer this question without knowing where this happened, because it's definitely a matter of both national and local law.

In the US, there are three levels: felony, misdemeanor, and violation. Violations are things like parking tickets, and they are not technically considered "crimes". A person found guilty of a violation isn't considered a criminal, and isn't considered to have a "criminal record".

The way you describe what happened to you, and the way it was dealt with, makes it sound like "underage drinking" was a violation, in which case you have nothing to report to the medical school. But to really know for sure we'd have to know where and when it happened.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:31 AM on October 28

Many schools run background checks on applicants who are accepted, but this school doesn't, so if I don't tell them they would probably never know

It doesn't seem like you have much to worry about then. And, even if they did run background checks this might not even show up. Schools and companies are not the FBI and use inexpensive background checking services that often only report convictions or indictments. Many things will not even make the radar. As others here have said, you're fine.
posted by Burhanistan at 12:52 PM on October 28

Notice the AND in the “or pleaded guilty and been placed on probation, court supervision or another preconviction program”. If you pleaded guilty (as I believe one does, for moving violation tickets) and as the result have NOT been placed on probation, under court supervision, etc, the answer to the question is no. At least that’s how I always interpreted the question.
posted by Dotty at 1:22 PM on October 28

I believe that you answered the question correctly, based on what Dotty and other have pointed out above.

However, if it comes up again in the future, you could go ahead and put it on there if it makes you feel better. I'm fairly certain nobody would hold it against you.

That said, I would just forget about it. It will probably never come up until you decide to run for President. Then you'll have to spend a week or so going on chat shows and talking about how evil alcohol is, while you wait for the media to get distracted by the next shiny object to come along.
posted by spilon at 1:29 PM on October 28

IANAL, but i have gotten a similar ticket (underage drinking as a for violation of municipal code). For me it does not show up on a background check (I had a friend with access to them run one on me)
posted by pyro979 at 1:47 PM on October 28

pyro, I'm not sure who your friend was, but it's worth noting that there are various levels of background checks. What is visible to some is not always visible to all.
posted by craven_morhead at 2:00 PM on October 28

Even if it does show up, juvenile crimes for which you aren't charged as an adult are not supposed to count against you as adult offenses. So you don't need to mention it: if they were to find it, you could say correctly that juvenile offenses are not part of an adult criminal record. IANAL, however.

You could not be charged as an adult for underage drinking because it would be no longer a crime.
posted by Maias at 2:02 PM on October 28

The question is whether you were ever convicted of a crime or pled guilty to one. So it really depends on the law of the jurisdiction under which you got your ticket. If what you paid (i.e. admitted commiting) was a civil infraction, your prior answer is fine. If underaged drinking was defined by law as a crime at the time you got your ticket and paid it, then just file a document amending your earlier answer. And don't worry too much about this.
posted by bearwife at 3:18 PM on October 28

Maias: In the US, a 20 year old can be cited/charged with underage drinking (sigh). At 20, you're definitely no longer a minor for the purposes of the juvenile justice system, but you are a minor for the purposes of alcohol consumption.

Personally, I wouldn't report it as several commenters have said. You could always try calling the admissions office and asking about the situation without giving your name (and sans caller-id for the paranoid). As I see it, you weren't convicted of a crime (because no judge or similar authority convicted you), and by paying the ticket, you were never on probation or court-ordered supervision or anything else the question is asking about.
posted by zachlipton at 3:36 PM on October 28

I realize you *can* be ticketed at 19 or 20, but I think it must be vanishingly rare that it actually happens-- we don't know what age the OP was ticketed at.
posted by Maias at 4:22 PM on October 28