Help me get these quotes right.

October 26, 2009 1:30 PM

Editors, I need your help with quotation marks! Which is correct? a) I sent him an article about "The X Factor". b) I sent him an article about "The X Factor."

I've seen it used both ways. I tend to use option B, but more and more lately, I'm seeing option A as the more common usage.

posted by HeyAllie to education (40 comments total)

Option A.

from this source, a little history:

"There are peculiar typographical reasons why the period and comma go inside the quotation mark in the United States. The following explanation comes from the "Frequently Asked Questions" file of alt.english.usage: "In the days when printing used raised bits of metal, "." and "," were the most delicate, and were in danger of damage (the face of the piece of type might break off from the body, or be bent or dented from above) if they had a '"' on one side and a blank space on the other. Hence the convention arose of always using '."' and ',"' rather than '".' and '",', regardless of logic." This seems to be an argument to return to something more logical, but there is little impetus to do so within the United States."
posted by liketitanic at 1:33 PM on October 26 [2 favorites has favorites]

ACK, I MEAN B. Inside the quotation mark. Sorry.
posted by liketitanic at 1:34 PM on October 26 [1 favorite has favorites]

Period goes inside of quotes according to AP Style and Chicago manual of style.
posted by Kimberly at 1:34 PM on October 26

B. All punctuation except for colons and semicolons goes inside of quotation marks.
posted by decathecting at 1:35 PM on October 26

It does vary. I'm a copy editor for a website that has different versions for different countries. For this job, I use Option A for the U.K., Europe, Canada, and Australia, and Option B for the United States. (This summer we moved Canada from Option B to Option A.)

(Also for this job, the United States gets the serial comma while the Commonwealth countries don't.)
posted by lisa g at 1:35 PM on October 26 [3 favorites has favorites]

Option B. Always always always.

You will see it written as option A occasionally in British literature (sort of an oxford comma kind of thing), but for all practical purposes, B.
posted by Lutoslawski at 1:35 PM on October 26

As a programmer, option A is the only acceptable answer. It's not what they taught me in school, but it's the only way that makes sense. There's a big difference in my world between: A) type "./a.out".; and B) type "./a.out." One works, one doesn't.

I've also noted that UK style has shifted to programmer-style "logical" quotes. US style seems not to be adopting it so quickly.
posted by Netzapper at 1:37 PM on October 26 [2 favorites has favorites]

B is correct, A is being used more and more. I use A most of the time since I am at least occasionally using the construction Netzapper matters. Sometimes editors corrct it and sometimes they don't.
posted by jessamyn at 1:39 PM on October 26

And yes, modern British style favours the logical -- inside or outside, depending on whether the punctuation 'belongs' to the quoted content -- over the mechanical or typographical.
posted by holgate at 1:39 PM on October 26

I was taught that the period (or comma) should go inside the quotation marks if the quotation is part of dialogue, or a phrase which constitutes the main part of the sentence, as in:

"John," said Sasha, "I really want to go shopping alone."

However, if the quotation marks are used to set off a title of some kind, then the quotation marks and the title are a unit unto themselves, and commas and periods around that unit (usually functioning as a subject or object in the sentence) would always go outside the quotation marks, as in:

I told John that I really wanted to buy a copy of "Marshall's Revenge".

or (your example):

I sent him an article about "The X Factor".

I am aware that there are a lot of people who do not distinguish the two uses of quotation marks.
posted by amtho at 1:39 PM on October 26 [10 favorites has favorites]

B is correct in the US. A is correct in the UK.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:40 PM on October 26

My guess is this will vary by country, but in the US I have always seen B as the correct usage.

That said, it seems that much of what is deemed grammatically "correct" at a particular point in time changes over time, and I don't see why this would not be true of punctuation marks as well.
posted by dfriedman at 1:40 PM on October 26

I was taught how to use quotes with other punctuation in the early/mid 1980's.
posted by amtho at 1:40 PM on October 26

...in Georgia, in the United States.
posted by amtho at 1:41 PM on October 26

Inside the quotation marks (B) is correct for American punctuation. Outisde the quotation marks (A) is correct for British and Brit-derived punctuation.
posted by scody at 1:42 PM on October 26

I use A now because my (American) editors routinely changed it whenever I used B. But having read this thread, I'm going to start saying that I do it because that's how Jessamyn does it.
posted by hermitosis at 1:43 PM on October 26 [1 favorite has favorites]

Assuming that you're going to be staying in your current country (the United States), the period always goes before the end quote. No nuances or exceptions, even if you could argue that it's more logical the other way.

If you ever move to the UK, then you'll not only need to worry about changing the position, but you might need to use single quotes where you would have used double in the US.
posted by Jaltcoh at 1:44 PM on October 26

American here, and I always put punctuation inside the quote marks, unless I'm writing about software code where anything inside the quotes could be considered part of a string. Just for clarity in those situations, it's best to put punctuation outside.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 1:46 PM on October 26

Also, B doesn't really consistently make sense. What if you wanted to use a semi-colon instead of a period? Would you really write:

I sent him an article about "The X Factor;" it was returned unopened.

Or what about a dash, or ellipses? Going with A gives you uniformity in all these cases.
posted by hermitosis at 1:46 PM on October 26 [5 favorites has favorites]

Stick with AP style... inside the quotes.
posted by LakesideOrion at 1:48 PM on October 26

I would solve it so - italicise titles.
posted by A189Nut at 1:54 PM on October 26

Also, B doesn't really consistently make sense. What if you wanted to use a semi-colon instead of a period?

The rule is consistent for commas and periods. The rule changes for colons, semicolons, question marks, and exclamation marks. Per Chicago (15th ed.; 6.9): "unlike periods and commas, these all follow closing quotation marks unless a question mark or an exclmation point belongs within the quoted matter."
posted by scody at 1:54 PM on October 26

I allow punctuation to enter into indirect quotations or cases in which the contents of the quotation marks are used rather than mentioned. So, for example:

My sister's favorite short story is "A Rose For Emily."

My sister's favorite short story is called 'A Rose For Emily'.

You can't really go too wrong with allowing punctuation into the former, as the use of quote marks there is fairly loosy-goose anyway and not direct quotation. I also use single quotes for the latter. The philosopher Donald Davidson has a paper on quotation in which he reveals that he used to use this method in order to regiment his writing and not make any use/mention errors. However, he found that there were some linguistically interesting features of quotation in natural language that made the method impossible to apply across the board. Quotation is a surprisingly interesting subject in the philosophy of language.

(None of this really speaks to favored editorial practices, though.)
posted by painquale at 2:06 PM on October 26

The rules I learned are exactly the ones amtho describes.
posted by aimedwander at 2:12 PM on October 26

This is from the Guardian (UK) Style Guide:

Use double quotes at the start and end of a quoted section, with single quotes for quoted words within that section. Place full points and commas inside the quotes for a complete quoted sentence; otherwise the point comes outside – "Anna said: 'Your style guide needs updating,' and I said: 'I agree.' " but: "Anna said updating the guide was 'a difficult and time-consuming task'."


I wasn't sure whether I should have actually put the quote itself in quotation marks though...
posted by hnnrs at 2:14 PM on October 26

I use Option A, "logical" quotes, using rules similar to amtho's, whenever I'm writing for myself. In formal writing, Option B should be preferred. I like Option A better, because it seems more consistent to me (why should a grammar rule depend on the x-height of the punctuation?), but it just isn't remotely standard enough yet in the United States. You'll either face editors who object, style books that contradict, or grammar nazis who complain.
posted by dhartung at 2:18 PM on October 26

amtho's answer above is also how I learned it.
posted by Prospero at 2:38 PM on October 26

Thanks for the help, everyone. Since I'm in the USA, I'm going to go with the AP Style & Chicago style recommendations.
posted by HeyAllie at 2:58 PM on October 26

Yeah, just as a note, people who say "It's always this way!" are almost always wrong. What matters is simply the style guide that you're using—consistency is the most important virtue, followed by ease of editing for your editor. And while AP and Chicago are good guides, they're both idiosyncratic about some weird stuff (like, the AP guide still hasn't moved to those newfangled two-letter state abbreviations). Some guides are better for some things, but none are universal and nearly all have a lot of arbitrary decisions that were decided to be sacrosanct simply so that copy editors wouldn't get into drunken knife fights over serial commas.

So the answer for this and nigh any punctuation question is always, "What style guide are you using?"
posted by klangklangston at 3:22 PM on October 26 [1 favorite has favorites]

I would go with B, except when the sentence is a question and the part in quotes isn't.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:10 PM on October 26

I was surprised when an editor once told me that the folks in the features department at the newspaper where I was working put the periods outside the quotation marks when referring to films or album titles. This was at a paper where we otherwise followed AP style. It drove me nuts.
posted by brina at 4:29 PM on October 26

> So the answer for this and nigh any punctuation question is always, "What style guide are you using?"

While your general point is correct, I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this specific question, unless you can point me to a U.S. guide that recommends British usage. I've been dealing professionally with this stuff for nigh on 30 years now, and while I've seen all kinds of differences about capitalization, serial commas, and what have you, I've never seen a difference about this.
posted by languagehat at 4:31 PM on October 26

... they're both idiosyncratic about some weird stuff (like, the AP guide still hasn't moved to those newfangled two-letter state abbreviations) ...

Those "newfangled two-letter state abbreviations" are U.S. Postal Service abbreviations, and there's a good reason why AP doesn't use them: Many people aren't entirely familiar with the abbreviations for all 50 states. Is IA Indiana or Iowa? MS Missouri or Mississippi? AK Alaska or Arkansas? AR Arkansas or Arizona? In this case, AP style eliminates confusion for a lot of readers: Des Moines, Iowa. Jackson, Miss. Anchorage, Alaska. Fayetteville, Ark.

And I also prefer AP style on punctuation and quote marks -- commas and periods on the inside.
posted by TBoneMcCool at 6:06 PM on October 26

As an erstwhile copy editor and adherent of the AP Stylebook, I am galled to see the period or comma outside the quote marks. It looks like a speck of dirt.

And since we've moved on to state abbreviations, Wisconsin will always be Wis. to me, never ever WI.

(All of which proves there is no former copy editor or proofreader. We just use the red pen/pencil in our minds.)

Long live AP!
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 6:33 PM on October 26 [1 favorite has favorites]

"While your general point is correct, I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this specific question, unless you can point me to a U.S. guide that recommends British usage."

The house styles at both magazine publishers that I've worked with treated titles as a single item, and would thus place the period outside of quotation marks, e.g. "Hamlet".

At both we largely defaulted to AP style, though, obviously, with local variation.

More to the point, there's nothing that keeps Americans from writing for British publication, especially on the internet, so again the answer is to refer to the style guide.
posted by klangklangston at 7:07 PM on October 26

"Those "newfangled two-letter state abbreviations" are U.S. Postal Service abbreviations, and there's a good reason why AP doesn't use them: Many people aren't entirely familiar with the abbreviations for all 50 states."

Yeah, I know. Just like the fact that there are reasons for Internet and Web site, though I disagree with them, and (the worst) e-mail, though I suspect that one may have been updated (my stylebook is from 2002).
posted by klangklangston at 7:10 PM on October 26

My daughter just read this thread and said to me "Now that's really confusing!".
posted by Neiltupper at 9:36 PM on October 26

Just like the fact that there are reasons for Internet and Web site, though I disagree with them, and (the worst) e-mail

Yeah, I'm with you on all those.
posted by TBoneMcCool at 6:49 AM on October 27

"Now that's really confusing!".

(omit period)
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:39 AM on October 27 [1 favorite has favorites]

My daughter just read this thread and said to me "Now that's really confusing!".

Add comma before quotation.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 8:30 AM on October 27 [1 favorite has favorites]