US citizen working in Egypt
October 25, 2009 8:11 AM Subscribe
I just received a job offer, for a senior architect position in a very known contracting firm in Cairo. FYI, I have 8 years of experience as an architect and an M.Arch degree.
However, I was shocked to see the figures associated, they are so low, and there are a lot of other concerns about rent fees and work hours, etc.. I will list some of the things below, please advise, if you have worked in Egypt, or familiar with the work law there.
1- Working hours in accordance with the local's labor law are 208/month i.e. 48/week. (This is insane. is that true?)
2- Compensation for this position is : Basic sallary is $2,700.00 + $540 accommodation allowance + $150 for food. ( That does not look enough at all, no matter how cheap living in Cairo really is).
3- They mention transportation, but do not say how much will they pay.
4- End of service will be accordance with local's labor law, ( I have no clue what that is)
5- They calculate overtime at maximum 2 hours daily, they don't pay any extra hours, so that means 52 hours/month estimated at $911.25 only
6- The duration of annual leave is 21 days, then they say that I will be eligible for 2 rest and recreation leaves, each is 7 days long. Then they add, those 7 days are inclusive of travel time and any holidays that may fall within, immediately before or after it.
1- Working hours in accordance with the local's labor law are 208/month i.e. 48/week. (This is insane. is that true?)
2- Compensation for this position is : Basic sallary is $2,700.00 + $540 accommodation allowance + $150 for food. ( That does not look enough at all, no matter how cheap living in Cairo really is).
3- They mention transportation, but do not say how much will they pay.
4- End of service will be accordance with local's labor law, ( I have no clue what that is)
5- They calculate overtime at maximum 2 hours daily, they don't pay any extra hours, so that means 52 hours/month estimated at $911.25 only
6- The duration of annual leave is 21 days, then they say that I will be eligible for 2 rest and recreation leaves, each is 7 days long. Then they add, those 7 days are inclusive of travel time and any holidays that may fall within, immediately before or after it.
Are the figures you're quoting USD or Egyptian currency?
If your expectation is to earn the equivalent of a first-world salary in Egypt, perhaps you need to find a different job there. Just because you're used to earning a certain amount in one country does not mean that if you move to another country you should expect to earn an equivalent amount in your local currency.
You should, however, expect to earn a salary sufficient to have a similar quality of life, insofar as that is possible in the second country.
I think you need to re-think the difference between countries' currencies, their relative worth, cost of living in two different places, and a whole host of other issues before you conclude that you are being ripped off.
posted by dfriedman at 8:37 AM on October 25, 2009
If your expectation is to earn the equivalent of a first-world salary in Egypt, perhaps you need to find a different job there. Just because you're used to earning a certain amount in one country does not mean that if you move to another country you should expect to earn an equivalent amount in your local currency.
You should, however, expect to earn a salary sufficient to have a similar quality of life, insofar as that is possible in the second country.
I think you need to re-think the difference between countries' currencies, their relative worth, cost of living in two different places, and a whole host of other issues before you conclude that you are being ripped off.
posted by dfriedman at 8:37 AM on October 25, 2009
Are those figures monthly or yearly? Because $2,700 per month on top of rent and food allowances seems pretty good to me and that's by UK standards. I'd be happy to have £1,600 a month over and above my rent and food costs. I'd imagine that goes a long way in Egypt.
posted by missmagenta at 8:41 AM on October 25, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by missmagenta at 8:41 AM on October 25, 2009 [2 favorites]
In terms of accommodation, I know someone who lives in Zamalek, a really nice area in Cairo, and he pays $650/month for a nice, modern one-bedroom apartment. He says that shared accommodation in the same area is about $270-360/month. Accommodation elsewhere would be cheaper still. $150 for food sounds a bit low, but you could get by on not much more than that.
posted by Kirjava at 9:34 AM on October 25, 2009
posted by Kirjava at 9:34 AM on October 25, 2009
You have an M.Arch. and 8 years experience. In Berlin, where pay is low and life is cheap but still in the first world, the starting salary for architects is as far as I know, after taxes, considerably less then 2000 USD/month in total (and the standard Diploma degree in Europe is considered equivalent to a Bachelors + Masters). So the money is fine. Your only decision points should be (a) do you want to live in Cairo, and (b) is the work itself interesting and going to help you in the future.
posted by molecicco at 11:31 AM on October 25, 2009
posted by molecicco at 11:31 AM on October 25, 2009
Well, Kirjava has a good overview of living expenses and dfriedman makes a good case for the salary differential, but I'd ask have you ever visited Egypt or worked with Egyptians?
I lived and worked in Cairo for about a year, love the place and try to return as often as I can. But Cairo is an acquired taste. If you've never visited Cairo I'd suggest forgoing any thought of accepting a position there until you've spent some time on the ground.
As obvious as this might sound, Egypt is a different culture, very, very different than America. These differences will either delight or enrage you, and until you've immersed yourself in that culture there is absolutely no way of telling how you'll react.
I'm a long term American ex-pat, currently living in London but I've done business in 28 countries. While working in Lagos I've seen people abruptly depart after just two or three days due to the extreme differences but I've also known of folks who have moved to England and just couldn't deal.
You seriously don't want to move to Egypt just to find out after three months you're losing your mind and have to return. In fact some ex-pat contracts for Westerners working in developing nations are structured so you receive a greater percentage of your compensation after successful completion of your assignement.
But in terms of the money, Arabian Business has an on-line calculator here. Seems like the salary quoted is rougly at the median.
Food, as long as you live like an Egyptian, is very, very cheap. And much better for you than American or European fare.
So you should be able, cultural adaptation issues asde, to live well while in Cairo.
And don't get too fussed by the long hours. Not sure where you're coming from, but from personal experience I can tell you that bankers in Egypt certainly do work long hours but its much, much less intense than New York or London.
Which I always found fascinating, as they do seem to get the work done in the end. Just with much less stress.
posted by Mutant at 12:03 PM on October 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
I lived and worked in Cairo for about a year, love the place and try to return as often as I can. But Cairo is an acquired taste. If you've never visited Cairo I'd suggest forgoing any thought of accepting a position there until you've spent some time on the ground.
As obvious as this might sound, Egypt is a different culture, very, very different than America. These differences will either delight or enrage you, and until you've immersed yourself in that culture there is absolutely no way of telling how you'll react.
I'm a long term American ex-pat, currently living in London but I've done business in 28 countries. While working in Lagos I've seen people abruptly depart after just two or three days due to the extreme differences but I've also known of folks who have moved to England and just couldn't deal.
You seriously don't want to move to Egypt just to find out after three months you're losing your mind and have to return. In fact some ex-pat contracts for Westerners working in developing nations are structured so you receive a greater percentage of your compensation after successful completion of your assignement.
But in terms of the money, Arabian Business has an on-line calculator here. Seems like the salary quoted is rougly at the median.
Food, as long as you live like an Egyptian, is very, very cheap. And much better for you than American or European fare.
So you should be able, cultural adaptation issues asde, to live well while in Cairo.
And don't get too fussed by the long hours. Not sure where you're coming from, but from personal experience I can tell you that bankers in Egypt certainly do work long hours but its much, much less intense than New York or London.
Which I always found fascinating, as they do seem to get the work done in the end. Just with much less stress.
posted by Mutant at 12:03 PM on October 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Previous posters have it covered (especially Mutant on the importance of cultural adaptation - some Westerners just don't react well to the "oddities" of Cairo life…). I don't know pay in your field, but in general you would live pretty well in Cairo on the amounts you mention.
posted by Fin Azvandi at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2009
posted by Fin Azvandi at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2009
It all sounds pretty good to me. 48 hrs/wk is only 6 x 8, and I know plenty of engineers who do much more than that. Those engineers do not receive OT pay - if they have to work longer than normal hours, their salary covers that, too. So the 2 hr/day OT cap is actually a good deal for a salaried employee. Plus almost 700/month of allowances over your salary? Depending on the local economy, that sounds decent.
6. I would interpret as you are guaranteed to have approved leave for 7 solid days at least twice a year, the other 7 you might have to take one or two at a time, or carry over to next year if we can't afford to be without you when you want to take a day off.
Can you get a contact number or email address of someone that works there - someone not in upper management or HR? That would be your best source of "what sucks about working there?" and if the salary is good relative to cost of living.
posted by ctmf at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2009
6. I would interpret as you are guaranteed to have approved leave for 7 solid days at least twice a year, the other 7 you might have to take one or two at a time, or carry over to next year if we can't afford to be without you when you want to take a day off.
Can you get a contact number or email address of someone that works there - someone not in upper management or HR? That would be your best source of "what sucks about working there?" and if the salary is good relative to cost of living.
posted by ctmf at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2009
What is important is how many U.S. dollars you can save, not how cheap the local living expenses are. Saving 10% of a low salary is not equivalent to saving 10% of a high salary. Unless you plan on retiring in Cairo, you need to save for retirement at U.S. quantities. So the comparison should be how many dollars you can save net of living expenses compared to living and working in the U.S.
posted by JackFlash at 12:26 PM on October 25, 2009
posted by JackFlash at 12:26 PM on October 25, 2009
A six-day work week or some way to get to 48 hours is pretty common in that part of the world. In general, it is extremely challenging to imagine that if necessary, you will get anything done via local labor laws.
Those things aside, to each their own in terms of country of residence, what country/countries they are willing to consider, but I've met Western architects working in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and they were making A Lot more than what you're being offered.
Looked to see if there are any gigs fer ya in Qatar?
posted by ambient2 at 2:59 PM on October 25, 2009
Those things aside, to each their own in terms of country of residence, what country/countries they are willing to consider, but I've met Western architects working in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and they were making A Lot more than what you're being offered.
Looked to see if there are any gigs fer ya in Qatar?
posted by ambient2 at 2:59 PM on October 25, 2009
$2700 a month is normal because in the expat market in Arab states, you are competing skill and salary-wise with a vast number of M.Arch graduates from good universities in India. Unless you end up in a really senior management position for a megaproject, in which case the salaries are likely to be higher than the equivalent US job, most initial figures will be at 35 to 50% of what your job would normally pay in the USA.
posted by thewalrus at 5:00 PM on October 25, 2009
posted by thewalrus at 5:00 PM on October 25, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
2) $2,700 a month? If Cairo really is that cheap, yes, it really can be enough. Why does that seem so extraordinarily low? Remember, that's above the accommodation allowance, and if you really will have rent of only $540, you could be spending/saving a lot more than you could in the US. How much you make is irrelevant - how much you keep is what matters.
3) That's because they'll probably pay whatever it takes to get you there/back. It's not really part of compensation, just them saying "We won't make you pay to fly here." Alternately, it may mean they'll pay for your transit to/from work on a daily basis.
4) Yeah, I'd find out what that actually means. I think a lawyer versed in international/Egyptian labor law is in order.
5) I'd find out if this is on top of the 48.
6) This is confusing - do you have 21 Paid Time Off days plus a pair of 7-week vacations?
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:20 AM on October 25, 2009