To mac or not to mac
October 25, 2009 5:21 AM Subscribe
Which mac should I get?
I have been offered the opportunity to get paid to learn how to make iphone apps by one of my clients. I've also had other enquiries about them that I've had to turn down in the past. At first I thought, great! I love learning new things, particularly programming things but then I found out I'll need a mac to do it - not so great.
I have tentatively been offered about twice the cost of a new macbook pro to do this but it will be paid over a period of 6 months and is realistically contingent on me actually being able to write the app that they want, right now I have no idea if I'll be able to do it since I can't even write "hello world" without getting a mac to do it on.
Really I don't want to spend a lot of money in case it doesn't work out. I'm moderately confident that it will but I really wont know for sure until I get some practical, hands on experience. But macs are really expensive, a new Macbook Pro would cost more than my gaming PC and work laptop combined.
I don't have space for another desktop machine so I've been looking at laptops but even on used older models on ebay I'd be paying the same as I paid for my dell laptop 3 years ago for a pretty similar spec machine which seems wasteful. I am due a new laptop since the warranty on my dell is nearly up (though I could pay to extend it another 2 years) but a new Macbook Pro would cost 50% more than an equivalent spec dell inspiron and I'd have to buy a copy of windows which would be another £100 on top of that.
Another thing I'm concerned about with the mac laptops is durability - I'm not exactly gentle with my stuff, I leave my laptop on 24/7, I've dropped it (from the sofa to the carpetted floor) several times, it has multiple scratches on the case that I have no idea where they came from and the heat has melted the glue on all its little rubber feet. In the 3 years that I've had it I've had the motherboard and palm rest replaced twice and 3 new power cables - all supplied next business day at my home as part of the warranty I got with the machine. Since I need it for work, that's pretty important. If I did get a mac to use as my main machine and it breaks I can't afford just to send it off to them and wait for it to be repaired.
I looked at the mac mini and its definitely at a more comfortable price point but there's still the issue of keyboard and monitor. I don't have room for a whole new set up and I don't want to keep unplugging my monitor and keyboard from my PC to plug into the mac - is there a simple, affordable solution to this problem? I thought about remote desktopping from my laptop to the mac mini (so it wouldn't need a monitor and keyboard) but there doesn't seem to be a simple, affordable way to do that. Windows provide a windows->mac rdp client for free but apple don't seem to have reciprocated. I found one product that claimed to do the job but it was about $200!!
I just don't know what to do, I really want to do this, not just because it would be a potentially valuable new skill with a nice cash incentive, I really want to help this client out.
And as a sneaky bonus question, if I do find a way to get a mac without feeling completely ripped off, what are the differences/limitations of the ipod touch vs iphone when it comes to apps? Will I be able to test most functionality on the ipod? Basically all the app really will be doing is reading and displaying data from the web, the only really 'special' functionality would be GPS functions - I don't know if the iPod Touch has gps but realistically I wouldn't be able to test that anyway, all the landmarks the app would refer to are in france and I'm in the UK.
I have been offered the opportunity to get paid to learn how to make iphone apps by one of my clients. I've also had other enquiries about them that I've had to turn down in the past. At first I thought, great! I love learning new things, particularly programming things but then I found out I'll need a mac to do it - not so great.
I have tentatively been offered about twice the cost of a new macbook pro to do this but it will be paid over a period of 6 months and is realistically contingent on me actually being able to write the app that they want, right now I have no idea if I'll be able to do it since I can't even write "hello world" without getting a mac to do it on.
Really I don't want to spend a lot of money in case it doesn't work out. I'm moderately confident that it will but I really wont know for sure until I get some practical, hands on experience. But macs are really expensive, a new Macbook Pro would cost more than my gaming PC and work laptop combined.
I don't have space for another desktop machine so I've been looking at laptops but even on used older models on ebay I'd be paying the same as I paid for my dell laptop 3 years ago for a pretty similar spec machine which seems wasteful. I am due a new laptop since the warranty on my dell is nearly up (though I could pay to extend it another 2 years) but a new Macbook Pro would cost 50% more than an equivalent spec dell inspiron and I'd have to buy a copy of windows which would be another £100 on top of that.
Another thing I'm concerned about with the mac laptops is durability - I'm not exactly gentle with my stuff, I leave my laptop on 24/7, I've dropped it (from the sofa to the carpetted floor) several times, it has multiple scratches on the case that I have no idea where they came from and the heat has melted the glue on all its little rubber feet. In the 3 years that I've had it I've had the motherboard and palm rest replaced twice and 3 new power cables - all supplied next business day at my home as part of the warranty I got with the machine. Since I need it for work, that's pretty important. If I did get a mac to use as my main machine and it breaks I can't afford just to send it off to them and wait for it to be repaired.
I looked at the mac mini and its definitely at a more comfortable price point but there's still the issue of keyboard and monitor. I don't have room for a whole new set up and I don't want to keep unplugging my monitor and keyboard from my PC to plug into the mac - is there a simple, affordable solution to this problem? I thought about remote desktopping from my laptop to the mac mini (so it wouldn't need a monitor and keyboard) but there doesn't seem to be a simple, affordable way to do that. Windows provide a windows->mac rdp client for free but apple don't seem to have reciprocated. I found one product that claimed to do the job but it was about $200!!
I just don't know what to do, I really want to do this, not just because it would be a potentially valuable new skill with a nice cash incentive, I really want to help this client out.
And as a sneaky bonus question, if I do find a way to get a mac without feeling completely ripped off, what are the differences/limitations of the ipod touch vs iphone when it comes to apps? Will I be able to test most functionality on the ipod? Basically all the app really will be doing is reading and displaying data from the web, the only really 'special' functionality would be GPS functions - I don't know if the iPod Touch has gps but realistically I wouldn't be able to test that anyway, all the landmarks the app would refer to are in france and I'm in the UK.
Best answer: There are VGA/USB switches which are cheap and easy to use if you want the Mac Mini (which sounds like the best choice if you already have a PC setup), OR getting the iMac and running Boot Camp or a Virtual Machine program.
posted by gramcracker at 5:50 AM on October 25, 2009
posted by gramcracker at 5:50 AM on October 25, 2009
Best answer: I suggest Mac Mini + KVM Switch. Cheap and simple.
posted by ish__ at 5:51 AM on October 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by ish__ at 5:51 AM on October 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: When I say I don't have room, I quite literally mean it. Anything I get is going to have to fit on the floor under my desk or on my lap.
posted by missmagenta at 5:52 AM on October 25, 2009
posted by missmagenta at 5:52 AM on October 25, 2009
It's possible to run OSX on regular PCs, now that they use Intel chips. they're called Haskintoshes. You could run it on a cheap netbook, or in theory even on a virtual machine
posted by delmoi at 5:57 AM on October 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by delmoi at 5:57 AM on October 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Looks like Mac Mini + one of those switches is the way to go. Can anyone recommend a specific product and would I need any extra adapters? I have a 24" Samsung Syncmaster monitor, my keyboard and mouse are both wireless (with USB receivers)
Would this do the job?
Delmoi, I looked into the whole hackintosh thing but its against the 'rules' and since apple have to approve your app I didn't want to do anything to jeopardise that.
posted by missmagenta at 6:09 AM on October 25, 2009
Would this do the job?
Delmoi, I looked into the whole hackintosh thing but its against the 'rules' and since apple have to approve your app I didn't want to do anything to jeopardise that.
posted by missmagenta at 6:09 AM on October 25, 2009
You can VNC into the Mac. VNC software range from free (as in open source) to cheap to expensive. VNC over ethernet is pretty much like being hooked up directly. Grab a used Mac Mini from eBay, stick the max amount of RAM into it from some place like Crucial and call it a day.
posted by Brian Puccio at 6:14 AM on October 25, 2009
posted by Brian Puccio at 6:14 AM on October 25, 2009
"I don't want to keep unplugging my monitor and keyboard from my PC to plug into the mac"
KVM switches are very inexpensive. I found one in a thrift store for three bucks, but you can get them brand new for not very much at all.
"Windows provide a windows->mac rdp client for free but apple don't seem to have reciprocated. I found one product that claimed to do the job but it was about $200"
They don't have to reciprocate. OSX ships with a VNC server built in, for free. You turn on "Screen Sharing" in the appropriate control panel, and then connect to it with your favorite VNC client on any platform. Most of the extant VNC clients (for Windows or whatever else) are free. $200 is definitely spending more than you need to -- remote access to a Mac is free.
"Which mac should I get?"
If your sole purpose is to have a development and testing platform for iPhone applications, get whatever the cheapest thing you can find is, then buy some memory for it. Stick with used or refurb models at this point. Spend some more on a service contract with someone who can make sure you don't lose your ability to work. As your software development business becomes more profitable and expands, you can upgrade to fancier hardware.
" But macs are really expensive" ..."Another thing I'm concerned about with the mac laptops is durability... [long list of hardware abuse and failures]"
Yeah, the high end is a bit pricey since Apple has started overcharging for memory again this year and the memory capacity of the hardware has been bumped. The "low end" is pretty cheap for what you're getting -- Apple's product range doesn't extend as "low" as most other vendors', and is comparable in general to mid-level products. Apple's midrange is comparable in price to most other vendors as long as you don't factor in the Apple memory ripoff.
Well, you can't treat much of any normal retail laptop with that kind of abuse and hope for it to stay happy. You'll have to spend a lot more than what a MacBook costs to get ruggedized hardware (like the Panasonic Toughbooks) that's designed to be dropped, melted, and scratched up.
" If I did get a mac to use as my main machine and it breaks I can't afford just to send it off to them and wait for it to be repaired."
That's not a durability concern. That's a service concern, and frankly as a vendor it's one of their weakest. You'd probably be best buying a service contract from a third party if this is important to you, rather than buying Apple's service. It may be a bit more expensive, but as you say, it's for business and you can't afford downtime. Chances are your Mac, not being a creaky plastic piece of junk from the lowest cost manufacturer, won't fail quite so frequently and catastrophically. But don't take chances with your livelihood.
"I have tentatively been offered about twice the cost of a new macbook pro to do this"
Think about where you should and shouldn't be cutting corners. If your ability to work relies on the tools you select, and you have a limited budget for tools, you might not be in a position to get everything you want right now from an aesthetic or space-consumption standpoint.
In any case, good luck with your new project! I've been toying with Objective C development myself lately and it's definitely very interesting stuff.
posted by majick at 6:18 AM on October 25, 2009
KVM switches are very inexpensive. I found one in a thrift store for three bucks, but you can get them brand new for not very much at all.
"Windows provide a windows->mac rdp client for free but apple don't seem to have reciprocated. I found one product that claimed to do the job but it was about $200"
They don't have to reciprocate. OSX ships with a VNC server built in, for free. You turn on "Screen Sharing" in the appropriate control panel, and then connect to it with your favorite VNC client on any platform. Most of the extant VNC clients (for Windows or whatever else) are free. $200 is definitely spending more than you need to -- remote access to a Mac is free.
"Which mac should I get?"
If your sole purpose is to have a development and testing platform for iPhone applications, get whatever the cheapest thing you can find is, then buy some memory for it. Stick with used or refurb models at this point. Spend some more on a service contract with someone who can make sure you don't lose your ability to work. As your software development business becomes more profitable and expands, you can upgrade to fancier hardware.
" But macs are really expensive" ..."Another thing I'm concerned about with the mac laptops is durability... [long list of hardware abuse and failures]"
Yeah, the high end is a bit pricey since Apple has started overcharging for memory again this year and the memory capacity of the hardware has been bumped. The "low end" is pretty cheap for what you're getting -- Apple's product range doesn't extend as "low" as most other vendors', and is comparable in general to mid-level products. Apple's midrange is comparable in price to most other vendors as long as you don't factor in the Apple memory ripoff.
Well, you can't treat much of any normal retail laptop with that kind of abuse and hope for it to stay happy. You'll have to spend a lot more than what a MacBook costs to get ruggedized hardware (like the Panasonic Toughbooks) that's designed to be dropped, melted, and scratched up.
" If I did get a mac to use as my main machine and it breaks I can't afford just to send it off to them and wait for it to be repaired."
That's not a durability concern. That's a service concern, and frankly as a vendor it's one of their weakest. You'd probably be best buying a service contract from a third party if this is important to you, rather than buying Apple's service. It may be a bit more expensive, but as you say, it's for business and you can't afford downtime. Chances are your Mac, not being a creaky plastic piece of junk from the lowest cost manufacturer, won't fail quite so frequently and catastrophically. But don't take chances with your livelihood.
"I have tentatively been offered about twice the cost of a new macbook pro to do this"
Think about where you should and shouldn't be cutting corners. If your ability to work relies on the tools you select, and you have a limited budget for tools, you might not be in a position to get everything you want right now from an aesthetic or space-consumption standpoint.
In any case, good luck with your new project! I've been toying with Objective C development myself lately and it's definitely very interesting stuff.
posted by majick at 6:18 AM on October 25, 2009
Also consider apples Refurb store. I got my macbook pro there and saved $500. A friend got a less expensive model and saved $200. Totally worth it to me because it has all the same guarantees. I also heard once that most refurbs are better than new because they're more heavily scrutinized for defects. I don't know if that's true, but it sound good.
If you change your mind later on down the road, I've found my laptop to be pretty darn durable. I haven't dropped it yet, but I have walked it into a metal poll outside work a couple times. The aluminium case is pretty rugged. I had it in a satchel and was walking too close to the poll by the entry way and let me tell you, the first time I heard the *DONG* as the laptop bounced off the poll I was sure it was a goner (only week two after getting it, no doubt). Its quite scuffed up 6 months later but seems to be in great shape.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:26 AM on October 25, 2009
If you change your mind later on down the road, I've found my laptop to be pretty darn durable. I haven't dropped it yet, but I have walked it into a metal poll outside work a couple times. The aluminium case is pretty rugged. I had it in a satchel and was walking too close to the poll by the entry way and let me tell you, the first time I heard the *DONG* as the laptop bounced off the poll I was sure it was a goner (only week two after getting it, no doubt). Its quite scuffed up 6 months later but seems to be in great shape.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:26 AM on October 25, 2009
Response by poster: I looked at the refurb store and the cheapest they had was still just shy of £1,000, its a saving of £400 but its still twice the cost of the mac mini.
A few of you have mentioned getting more RAM - do Macs have RAM issues? My dell only has 1Gb and it does fine, even runs photoshop CS3 without any problems. The basic mac mini has 2GB, is that not enough? The only things I'm really going to be using at this point would be a browser + the iphone sdk/xcode and iphone simulator.
posted by missmagenta at 6:43 AM on October 25, 2009
A few of you have mentioned getting more RAM - do Macs have RAM issues? My dell only has 1Gb and it does fine, even runs photoshop CS3 without any problems. The basic mac mini has 2GB, is that not enough? The only things I'm really going to be using at this point would be a browser + the iphone sdk/xcode and iphone simulator.
posted by missmagenta at 6:43 AM on October 25, 2009
The basic mac mini has 2GB, is that not enough?
That's more than enough to do what you want. You'll be fine.
posted by qwip at 6:57 AM on October 25, 2009
That's more than enough to do what you want. You'll be fine.
posted by qwip at 6:57 AM on October 25, 2009
Developing for iPhone - the most important factor is having the latest version of OSX because the most interesting dev software needs at least 10.5 to run on. You don't need a huge memory code crunching computer to do iPhone dev really.
posted by gomichild at 7:11 AM on October 25, 2009
posted by gomichild at 7:11 AM on October 25, 2009
> The basic mac mini has 2GB, is that not enough?
It may be enough, but filling it out is definitely worth the money. Apple used to have a justified reputation for charging egregious prices for extra RAM. WHile they've come down a great deal recently, you can still save money by buying high-quality RAM from a third party. Installing/replacing RAM on almost all Macs is easy - only the Mini still requires tools other than a miniature screwdriver (it requires a putty knife), and Apple even stamps installation instructions on the battery bay or panel covering the slots.
Make sure your RAM is good-spec, higher-quality product. I've witnessed several incidents of mystery-meat problems on Macs being the product of sketchy, bargain silicon. (RAM is installed: occasional problems. RAM is removed: no problems. RAM is replaced with good RAM: no problems.)
posted by ardgedee at 7:43 AM on October 25, 2009
It may be enough, but filling it out is definitely worth the money. Apple used to have a justified reputation for charging egregious prices for extra RAM. WHile they've come down a great deal recently, you can still save money by buying high-quality RAM from a third party. Installing/replacing RAM on almost all Macs is easy - only the Mini still requires tools other than a miniature screwdriver (it requires a putty knife), and Apple even stamps installation instructions on the battery bay or panel covering the slots.
Make sure your RAM is good-spec, higher-quality product. I've witnessed several incidents of mystery-meat problems on Macs being the product of sketchy, bargain silicon. (RAM is installed: occasional problems. RAM is removed: no problems. RAM is replaced with good RAM: no problems.)
posted by ardgedee at 7:43 AM on October 25, 2009
You could always make a $300 (+$30 for OSX) Hackintosh from a cheap netbook. Here's a vert recent AskMe thread describing how easy and predictable and usable this option has become.
Dual boot machine, super portable, decent keyboard, 7 hour battery life, for $300 and a sunday afternoon of watching the software install . . . . I'm doing it myself very soon just for the thrill. I tried it a while back on a Dell laptop (not a Netbook) that was supposedly highly compatible, and it near drove me nuts. But apparently it has become as easy as copying an installer file and a few patches onto a USB key and watching the progress bar move.
Hawt, amirite?
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:51 AM on October 25, 2009
Dual boot machine, super portable, decent keyboard, 7 hour battery life, for $300 and a sunday afternoon of watching the software install . . . . I'm doing it myself very soon just for the thrill. I tried it a while back on a Dell laptop (not a Netbook) that was supposedly highly compatible, and it near drove me nuts. But apparently it has become as easy as copying an installer file and a few patches onto a USB key and watching the progress bar move.
Hawt, amirite?
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:51 AM on October 25, 2009
(That said, the idea of serious coding on a Netbook keyboard/screen makes me want to call an orthopedist and eye doctor on conference.)
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:54 AM on October 25, 2009
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:54 AM on October 25, 2009
And actually, if having the most recent OSX is an issue for iPhone dev work (and of course it is), a hackintosh is not a good idea after all; the update patches often seem to take a few weeks to a few months to catch up. That said, the link above tells you how to run Snow Leopard on a Dell 10v. Mind-blowing.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:56 AM on October 25, 2009
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:56 AM on October 25, 2009
> You could always make a $300 (+$30 for OSX) Hackintosh from a cheap netbook.
Developing on a hackintosh sounds fraught with risk to me. If your application has bugs you can't reproduce, or can't reproduce consistently, will you always be able to tell whether the problem is your code or your kludged computer?
This is aside from having a netbook hackintosh for a user environment, which I continue to find alluring.
posted by ardgedee at 8:30 AM on October 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Developing on a hackintosh sounds fraught with risk to me. If your application has bugs you can't reproduce, or can't reproduce consistently, will you always be able to tell whether the problem is your code or your kludged computer?
This is aside from having a netbook hackintosh for a user environment, which I continue to find alluring.
posted by ardgedee at 8:30 AM on October 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
if having the most recent OSX is an issue for iPhone dev work (and of course it is)
It's not. There's a separate SDK install for 10.5.x now but it's identical to the 10.6.
posted by mokuba at 10:09 AM on October 25, 2009
It's not. There's a separate SDK install for 10.5.x now but it's identical to the 10.6.
posted by mokuba at 10:09 AM on October 25, 2009
I'd get the cheapest 13" MBP, Apple's MiniDisplayPort->DVI converter, and a good DVI KVM (I assume your PC is outputting DVI). I have an iogear 2-port KVM and it's great.
While 2GB is fine I'd pay the $100 extra to bump it up to 4GB for future-proofing.
Mac laptops run great with the cover closed.
I have had my MBP slide off my bed three times (I is an idiot), twice onto a hard metal lamp stand, and it's still a champ, other than the dent into the frame the lamp stand made.
posted by mokuba at 10:18 AM on October 25, 2009
While 2GB is fine I'd pay the $100 extra to bump it up to 4GB for future-proofing.
Mac laptops run great with the cover closed.
I have had my MBP slide off my bed three times (I is an idiot), twice onto a hard metal lamp stand, and it's still a champ, other than the dent into the frame the lamp stand made.
posted by mokuba at 10:18 AM on October 25, 2009
Developing on a hackintosh sounds fraught with risk to me. If your application has bugs you can't reproduce, or can't reproduce consistently, will you always be able to tell whether the problem is your code or your kludged computer?
Well, the code will be running on an iPhone, not the mac. And I assume he'll have a real iPhone, so that shouldn't be an issue.
Since he'll be developing apps for a tiny computer, he probably doesn't need a very powerful one (and he'll be able to do graphics on his PC if he needs to).
You could also get a used Mac.
posted by delmoi at 1:12 PM on October 25, 2009
Well, the code will be running on an iPhone, not the mac. And I assume he'll have a real iPhone, so that shouldn't be an issue.
Since he'll be developing apps for a tiny computer, he probably doesn't need a very powerful one (and he'll be able to do graphics on his PC if he needs to).
You could also get a used Mac.
posted by delmoi at 1:12 PM on October 25, 2009
I know you've dismissed the iMac suggestion, but consider this: the iMac can be mounted on an extendable arm attached to a wall, desk etc. That in certain circumstances can be a huge space saver, and also pay off in safety. You can pull it up from the wall when you need it, and then push it back flush against the wall so it won't come to any harm, and will save you tons of space (plus, when it's flush against the wall, it can function like an evolving painting, if you install something like Eno's 77 Million Paintings). This way you can also get rid of your TV/DVD player if you have one - and have a fantastic computer + media center to boot... space savings galore. Just another option.
posted by VikingSword at 1:29 PM on October 25, 2009
posted by VikingSword at 1:29 PM on October 25, 2009
if I do find a way to get a mac without feeling completely ripped off
Probably not the answer you're looking for, but if I were you I'd say no to the proposition.
From your questions you know next to nothing about macs or the iphone. So you're going to not only have to become familiar with those two platforms, you're then going to have to learn how to code for the iPhone (and while I'm sure you can do it, there's a difference between getting it done and doing it well).
Add to this you seem to have an underlying belief that macs are too expensive and a ripoff without at least kicking the idea that there might be 'some' reason a lot of pretty intelligent people, designers, and programmers use macs, and I'd say you're headed towards a world of hurt.
I'd stick with PC projects.
posted by Dennis Murphy at 3:02 PM on October 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Probably not the answer you're looking for, but if I were you I'd say no to the proposition.
From your questions you know next to nothing about macs or the iphone. So you're going to not only have to become familiar with those two platforms, you're then going to have to learn how to code for the iPhone (and while I'm sure you can do it, there's a difference between getting it done and doing it well).
Add to this you seem to have an underlying belief that macs are too expensive and a ripoff without at least kicking the idea that there might be 'some' reason a lot of pretty intelligent people, designers, and programmers use macs, and I'd say you're headed towards a world of hurt.
I'd stick with PC projects.
posted by Dennis Murphy at 3:02 PM on October 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: To answer your bonus question, the iPod touch doesn't have GPS. It can do somewhat limited localization by wifi access point lookup.
posted by timeistight at 11:46 PM on October 25, 2009
posted by timeistight at 11:46 PM on October 25, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
See http://www.marco.org/222434049
posted by wolfr at 5:39 AM on October 25, 2009